Non-Magic Character

[ReD_Exorcist]

So recently my friend had started a campaign while I was gone on a trip. He has everything ready and everyone else who is a player has chosen their class and begun playing. As I am going to be joining the game later then the rest I now want to find a class that would be interesting/fun and no one has chosen.

These are the classes that have already been chosen (Remember this campaign is non magic)

- Knight
- Rouge
- Ranger (Non Magic Variant)
- Paladin (Non Magic Variant)
- Barbarian
- Factotum (DMPC)

What I had in mind was playing a crafting sort of character someone who can make alchemy tools and builds traps.
If not a crafting sort of character then a Monk who focuses on Stunning Fist.

Anyways any advice on how to build these sort of characters would be helpful, also if you can recommend other classes that are non-magic and would be fun please do.

ONE LAST THING THIS IS IMPORTANT. I PLAN TO PLAY STRONGHEART HALFLING NO MATTER WHAT.
I do no care about optimization when it comes to race

[ATHATH]

How do you feel about Tome of Battle classes? How do your feel about (Su) abilities, like the Invisible Fist Monk ACF's ability to turn invisible?

Also, no-magic campaigns tend to be a bad idea in general in 3.5, as the system and monsters were designed with the assumption that the PCs would have magic available to them. I'd recommend using a different system (such as 5th edition, which handles no-magic campaigns much better than 3.5 does (or so I'm told) and is relatively simple to learn), if possible.

[Eldariel]

There's the Combat Trapsmith PRC in Complete Scoundrel but it's sadly basically just a blaster in disguise in spite of all the potential the concept has. If you worked with your DM you could potentially craft it into something that would work. For a base crafter, non-caster options don't really exist; the only crafting focused class in the game is Artificer and it's all magic all the time. Warlocks and most casters can make for good crafters but a non-magical crafter; Factotum is the best and it's already taken (and has minor magic to boot though you could do fine without it). Perhaps Marshal? Charisma to Int-checks as an aura and some bottle gnomes (any kinds of clockwork constructs) to do your crafting for you. And you benefit of the bonus yourself of course so you get both, Int and Cha (better than nothing). Some animated objects; without magic a bit tricky but potentially doable. Or tame magical beasts. X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) might give you additional ideas to optimize Crafts. Marshal/Factotum could be a solid way to go about it if you can agree with your DM about you being allowed to run a Factotum.

In general, ToB classes (Warblade, Crusader, non-magical Swordsage) are all great for such campaigns and we've actually played a non-magical ToB campaign with friends and it's been a ton of fun. ToB adds layers of complexity to melee combat in particular which the system sorely needs, particularly if you remove the basic complexity provided by spells from the mix. ToB vs. ToB adds for layers of strike vs. counter setups and in general, a lot more variables than a basic combat encounter would generally have.

[ReD_Exorcist]

I've done ToB classes before, I don't think the DM will want me to do them since he ended up thinking it was to OP the times I played them with him.

I also talked to him about the Invisible fist and he said he didn't approve of it. (The DM is still pretty new and is worried about me being to optimized thus why I was thinking of going with something that is usually bad in magic campaigns like the Monk focusing SF or the Crafter focusing Alchemy/Trap-making

Yeah I don't think the DM understands the problem with a non-magic campaign but its whatever. I like playing with him and the others, for the most part we don't take ourselves to serious and play for the ****s and giggles of funny adventures.

[ATHATH]

There's the Combat Trapsmith PRC in Complete Scoundrel but it's sadly basically just a blaster in disguise in spite of all the potential the concept has. If you worked with your DM you could potentially craft it into something that would work. For a base crafter, non-caster options don't really exist; the only crafting focused class in the game is Artificer and it's all magic all the time. Warlocks and most casters can make for good crafters but a non-magical crafter; Factotum is the best and it's already taken (and has minor magic to boot though you could do fine without it). Perhaps Marshal? Charisma to Int-checks as an aura and some bottle gnomes (any kinds of clockwork constructs) to do your crafting for you. And you benefit of the bonus yourself of course so you get both, Int and Cha (better than nothing). Some animated objects; without magic a bit tricky but potentially doable. Or tame magical beasts. X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) might give you additional ideas to optimize Crafts. Marshal/Factotum could be a solid way to go about it if you can agree with your DM about you being allowed to run a Factotum.

In general, ToB classes (Warblade, Crusader, non-magical Swordsage) are all great for such campaigns and we've actually played a non-magical ToB campaign with friends and it's been a ton of fun. ToB adds layers of complexity to melee combat in particular which the system sorely needs, particularly if you remove the basic complexity provided by spells from the mix. ToB vs. ToB adds for layers of strike vs. counter setups and in general, a lot more variables than a basic combat encounter would generally have.
Do note that in a no-magic game, you should probably go "all party members use ToB" or "no party members use ToB", or else some players might feel overshadowed.

Have you considered taking levels in the Lantan Artificer/Gnome Artificer (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/gnomeartificer.shtml) prestige class? Normally, it's pretty subpar, but in your game(,) it might be useful and interesting.

Its "able to cast 1st level arcane spells" prerequisite might be an issue, though... See if your DM will let you take a level in a spellcasting class in order to qualify, under the stipulation that you'll not be allowed to actually use any of the spells granted by that class (in other words, use the class for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes only).

The Charlatan (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/charlatan.shtml) prestige class might also be of interest to you. You might have some issues with the low CL of the class's "spells", though- see if your DM will let you use the Practiced Spellcaster feat in order to (partially) fix that. In order to improve your CL further after finishing the class, consider taking levels in the Legacy Champion PrC, the Uncanny Trickster PrC, and/or Bloodline classes.

[Nifft]

Scout - One of my favorite non-magical classes. You'll want a source of Pounce for a melee build, or Greater Manyshot on a ranged build. One level of Lion Spirit Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian can get you two attacks at level 1 and Pounce, which is pretty good.

Marshal - In a world without Bards, these guys may actually be able to do their job.

Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler ++ - Like a Rogue except with fewer skill points and more BAB.

[death390]

honestly if you want to be a crafter character, i suggest being a factorum. all skills are class you can build him however you want. strictly mundane (not counting dilletant) then you have int bonus to craft skill 1/day, into to dex checks (including initiative !!!!) and so much more. it is probably the best overall chassis for a mundane campagn, rouge comes close second (ahead in combat though).

you can add poisons to your arsenal just pickup master poisoner.

[ATHATH]

Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler ++ - Like a Rogue except with fewer skill points and more BAB.
Take the Daring Outlaw feat if you go this route, of course. Depending on your taste, you might want to swap out those last two levels of Rogue with a single level of Sneak Attack Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Have you considered taking levels in the Lantan Artificer/Gnome Artificer (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/gnomeartificer.shtml) prestige class? Normally, it's pretty subpar, but in your game(,) it might be useful and interesting.

Its "able to cast 1st level arcane spells" prerequisite might be an issue, though... See if your DM will let you take a level in a spellcasting class in order to qualify, under the stipulation that you'll not be allowed to actually use any of the spells granted by that class (in other words, use the class for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes only).

Ooh, I didn't remember about that one! Good catch; you can go Factotum 2/Stoneblessed 3/Lantan Artificer 10 even with a Strongheart Halfling base and be pretty well set. Stoneblessed qualifies you as a Gnome. Arcane Dilettante could qualify you and you could simply say you can't actually use it; you're only missing out on a 1st level spell. This sounds precisely like what the OP wanted and a pretty good fit for a group of this kind.

[ATHATH]

Ooh, I didn't remember about that one! Good catch; you can go Factotum 2/Stoneblessed 3/Lantan Artificer 10 even with a Strongheart Halfling base and be pretty well set. Stoneblessed qualifies you as a Gnome. Arcane Dilettante could qualify you and you could simply say you can't actually use it; you're only missing out on a 1st level spell. This sounds precisely like what the OP wanted and a pretty good fit for a group of this kind.
Arcane Dilettante gives you spell-like abilities, though, not spells. Maybe a 1 level dip in Spellthief could work, since you can cast 1st level spells that you've stolen?

[Eldariel]

Arcane Dilettante gives you spell-like abilities, though, not spells. Maybe a 1 level dip in Spellthief could work, since you can cast 1st level spells that you've stolen?

Perhaps. Spellthief is a good call on a class not yet taken as well, though of course you wouldn't want to go very deep in it in a world without magic. I'd personally give SLAs a pass too though. Either way, it's something he'll have to bring up with the DM as it's a campaign without spells, and the class very explicitly doesn't use spells to do its thing.

[Oontarg]

The "strongest halfling" who is non-magic character I can think of is a Forsaker Prc from Masters of Wild. The Forsaker use absolutely no magic and with flaw feats(UA) you can meet the three feat requirements at Level 2. Put all the bonus ability points you get into strength to make you "strong". Also you take Sacred Vow(feat) At level 3, and Vow of Poverty(feat) at level 6. Once you Vow of Poverty, put the highest bonus ability points into strength.

With Strength 16 at level one, the plus 5 strength from leveling, the plus 10 to strength from Forsaker and the plus 8 strength from Vow of Poverty you will have Strength 39 at level 20.

Thats the "strongest" non-magic halfling in 3.0/3.5. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

-edit- just realized you said "Strongheart Halfling" not Strongest halfing...

[Nifft]

The "strongest halfling" who is non-magic character I can think of is a Forsaker Prc from Masters of Wild. The Forsaker use absolutely no magic and with flaw feats(UA) you can meet the three feat requirements at Level 2. Put all the bonus ability points you get into strength to make you "strong". Also you take Sacred Vow(feat) At level 3, and Vow of Poverty(feat) at level 6. Once you Vow of Poverty, put the highest bonus ability points into strength.

With Strength 16 at level one, the plus 5 strength from leveling, the plus 10 to strength from Forsaker and the plus 8 strength from Vow of Poverty you will have Strength 39 at level 20.

Thats the "strongest" non-magic halfling in 3.0/3.5. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Psion in a psi-is-different game.

[Oontarg]

Psi is different is not RAW

[SangoProduction]

Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-might)is an awesome non-magic way of building a character.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How is there a Factotum? Factotums are pretty damn magical.

Otherwise, I'll generally second Nifft's suggestions. I vote for Marshal; they'll go nicely with a weapon-focused party. Throw in Draconic Aura to double down on buffing, and... either Improved Trip + Motivate Strength, or Knowledge Devotion + Motivate Intelligence (+Charming the Arrow, though that doesn't sound like it'll be an option) work nicely.


Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-might)is an awesome non-magic way of building a character.
And is definitely a first-party 3.5 option.

[Nifft]

Psi is different is not RAW

It's as RAW as spell-less Rangers & non-magical Paladins -- which is to say you're kinda right, but not in a valid or relevant way.

[Oontarg]

Those are variants, that means you need DM approval. With DM Approval a Character can have or do, literally anything... I guess I'm just a RAW purist...

[Nifft]

Those are variants, that means you need DM approval. With DM Approval a Character can have or do, literally anything... I guess I'm just a RAW purist...

Nah, if you were a RAW purist you'd be up in arms at the OP for talking about Ranger and Paladin as non-magical classes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Regardless of RAW, based on the classes listed in the OP, I'm preeeeety sure that "non-magic" will extend to "no psionics, meldshaping, truenaming, shadow magic, or any other magic-y nonsense."

[SangoProduction]

And is definitely a first-party 3.5 option.

Well Sorry. I read the OP and didn't see any restrictions set.

[Nifft]

Regardless of RAW, based on the classes listed in the OP, I'm preeeeety sure that "non-magic" will extend to "no psionics, meldshaping, truenaming, shadow magic, or any other magic-y nonsense."

Indeed.

But I am curious to know what is the limit of magic-y nonsense in this game.

Do NPCs get magic? Would the Mage Slayer feat be a good idea? Is Occult Slayer your only chance at a Mind Blank effect?

Can you acquire magic items? How about the Ancestral Relic feat (BoED)?

Can you get spell-like abilities through racial abilities or feats? Gnomes might be OP in this world, especially with that 3/day racial SLA feat.

What about feat chains like Aberration Blood or Fey Heritage?

[SangoProduction]

Since feat chains that require taxation are often martial in nature, you might want to consider options presented in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540296-3-5-Those-Pesky-Req-feats-and-(Somewhat)-Painless-Ways-to-Get-Them).

Also, if you don't mind the roleplaying implications, taking Toughness and Trollblooded level 1 is a nice, since you won't have any wands of out-of-combat-healing. If you took Bear Totem Barbarian (Toughness as a bonus feat), then you can take Trollblooded, Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered taking levels in the Combat Trapsmith PrC? It's pretty bad, IIRC, but it might fit your character concept.

[Anthrowhale]

If you play as a Monk 2/Paladin N, you can get Wisdom to AC (Monk 1), Initiative (Yondalla's Sense), Attack (Intuitive attack), and all saves (Serenity) while having a good BAB. Taking Ascetic Knight, your unarmed strike grows with Paladin level. Altogether, this is a reasonable platform for Stunning Fist since you can often win initiative and hit before the opponent gets to act. The biggest weakness is that you can't do much damage. If you want to do damage, specializing in either strength or dexterity seems required.

[ATHATH]

If you play as a Monk 2/Paladin N, you can get Wisdom to AC (Monk 1), Initiative (Yondalla's Sense), Attack (Intuitive attack), and all saves (Serenity) while having a good BAB. Taking Ascetic Knight, your unarmed strike grows with Paladin level. Altogether, this is a reasonable platform for Stunning Fist since you can often win initiative and hit before the opponent gets to act. The biggest weakness is that you can't do much damage. If you want to do damage, specializing in either strength or dexterity seems required.
May I recommend heading into the Argent Fist PrC instead of picking up the Ascetic Knight feat? +10 to your Stunning Fist DC when you use it on a Smite Evil attack is preeeeeeeeeetty good.

[Anthrowhale]

May I recommend heading into the Argent Fist PrC instead of picking up the Ascetic Knight feat? +10 to your Stunning Fist DC is preeeeeeeeeetty good.

That's a good point. You can also get AC+10 and Mettle this way making you even tougher.

[Anthrowhale]

Another trick: In a nonmagical setting the only technique I know to achieve a high AC is via Improved Combat Expertise. The combination of Yondalla's Sense, Monk AC, Holy Armor, Serenity, and Improved Combat Expertise, Evasion, and Mettle make Monk 2/Paladin 4/Argent Fist 8 resistant to many attacks. Normally Improved Combat Expertise is somewhat self-defeating since you can't hit, but Allied Defense makes the dodge bonus from Improved Combat Expertise apply to every adjacent ally which opens up a few tricks.

[Eldariel]

Another trick: In a nonmagical setting the only technique I know to achieve a high AC is via Improved Combat Expertise. The combination of Yondalla's Sense, Monk AC, Holy Armor, Serenity, and Improved Combat Expertise, Evasion, and Mettle make Monk 2/Paladin 4/Argent Fist 8 resistant to many attacks. Normally Improved Combat Expertise is somewhat self-defeating since you can't hit, but Allied Defense makes the dodge bonus from Improved Combat Expertise apply to every adjacent ally which opens up a few tricks.

Ol' Fist of the Forest/Deepwarden with Con-stacking (Stoneblessed, Barbarian, etc.) is another way to get rather high AC in this kind of a setup. You can stack more stuff on top of it and you'll of course get Con to Fort and Will (Steadfast Determination). You could actually add Forsaker as Con to AC for a third time (and a way to buff Con). This gives you Con as Monk-bonus, Dex-bonus & NA bonus to AC and can be stacked relatively high, with very respectable primary defense in HP too (my personal experience is that you can generally make do with ToB counters instead though; not constantly high AC but high AC when you need it). That said, it doesn't sound to be at all like what the OP is after.

[ShurikVch]

There are some Craft-related non-magical classes (all are non-WotC)

Base classes:
Master (War of the Lance)
Mechanic (Masque of the Red Death)
Tinker (WarCraft the RPG)
Tradesman (Masque of the Red Death)

PrCs:
Engineer (Magic & Mayhem)
High Handcrafter (Dungeon #108)
Master Inventor (Masque of the Red Death)
Steamwarrior (Magic & Mayhem)