Game breaking character?

[Joe dirt]

How to challenge a character that is
3 warlock/7 rogue? He has mask of the many and devils sight invocations, for feats he has actor feat, mobility.... every major encounter he cast darkness and uses it to gain advantage on attacks then uses cunning action to hide in the darkness thus making him untargetable. He gets sneak attack every round and cast either green flame blade or booming blade to make the damage potential even greater. if i try to use area effect spells he has evasion and usually escapes unscathed additionally he has the absorbe elements spell which halves any potential damage from area spells.

out of combat he uses mask of the many/actor feat to become the perfect thief walking around as someone else to commit crimes then frame them on others.

How to challenge a character like this without making it fell like im singling him out?

[lunaticfringe]

Fog Cloud, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Cone of Cold, Stinking Cloud, Daylight

[SaA]

Mind Flayers, things that dont need sight, Enviroment Related Dangers [rock slides][massive fires][tornadoes]

from the sounds of it hes the type of character that excells at specifically combat an Social interactions.

Mix it up a bit, to put in situations where surviving and not fighting are the top priority

[SharkForce]

have things retreat. he gets two spells per short rest, darkness doesn't last that long, so just have things retreat. i mean, if you had a massive disadvantage, would you stick around and fight with that disadvantage, or withdraw and look for an advantage at a later time? just back up, slam a door in his face, and let him sneak attack that instead if he can.

alternately, if his enemies also use things that prevent vision other than darkness, he's pretty screwed, and they're no worse off than they already were. smoke bombs, fog spells, concealment, etc.

grappling is not an attack roll, nor is a saving throw. if he doesn't have good athletics or acrobatics, that's another thing you could possibly target.

[Kuulvheysoon]

He sounds like a high enough level for you to start using Devils aginst him (and his party) - I believe that the Erineyes is the only devil to not get Devil's Sight, so they can all ignore the darkness effect. As a bonus, his party members will be reluctant to come in and assist him, because the devils would be getting advantage against them!

So he'd have the choice to either drop the darkness and allow his party members to help him out, or keep it up and deal with them himself.

[sithlordnergal]

Tremorsense is a good way to beat off Darkness. There are also some special orcs that are able to see in magical darkness and has something simar to sneak attack. I think they're in Volo's.

What is the Rogue casting Darkness on? I assume it is something they carry, so the sphere moves with them. If not, then just move the enemies out of darkness. Also, don't bother with AoE, they won't hurt the Rogue.

Instead, send in casters with Dispell Magic, Counterspell, and Daylight. It wouldn't feel like you are targeting the rogue if a caster has Dispell Magic to get rid of Darkness.

For example have a Caster cast Fear. That could absolutly destroy an entire party, and the Rogue can't escape with Darkness because they can see right through it. Meaning their greatest strength has suddenly become their greatest weakness. Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a fun one, and Blur is even better to stop Sneak Attacks through hiding since it gets rid of Advantage.

As for his thieving, put some traps that help detect magical thieves. Have high end places where a thief would love to steal from be protected by magic that detects and dispells illusions.

[Beechgnome]

Yeah there are ways to do it that challenge whole group and won't feel like singling him out. A room where all the suits of armor come to life and attack seems a standard attack, but they have blindsight, can't be talked to, and have amazing AC. In other words, a challenge for all.

[Unoriginal]

A bucket of oil on the floor.

[ImproperJustice]

A bard or druid that casts faerie fire?

I also second the retreat and regroup option.

What happens when someone centers a moonbeam or spike growth in the middle of the Darkness effect?

[lunaticfringe]

Plant Growth

[Kane0]

Grimlocks. Throw in a shaman that knows counterspell/dispel, blindness/deafness, a couple illusions and cloud spells as well as your standard blasty stuff. Area spells and/or traps that don't target Dex saves are also handy.

Hmm, that raises a question though. If a blind creature learns a spell that requires a target that they can see, can they still cast it?

[Citan]

How to challenge a character that is
3 warlock/7 rogue? He has mask of the many and devils sight invocations, for feats he has actor feat, mobility.... every major encounter he cast darkness and uses it to gain advantage on attacks then uses cunning action to hide in the darkness thus making him untargetable. He gets sneak attack every round and cast either green flame blade or booming blade to make the damage potential even greater. if i try to use area effect spells he has evasion and usually escapes unscathed additionally he has the absorbe elements spell which halves any potential damage from area spells.

out of combat he uses mask of the many/actor feat to become the perfect thief walking around as someone else to commit crimes then frame them on others.

How to challenge a character like this without making it fell like im singling him out?
Hi!

Yeah, this can be a nasty character but there are ways around it.
AFB so I may be mistaken about some things but...
- Daylight or Dispel should be enough to kill it instantly.
- Using any spell that can slow him down or outright stop him right in its track...
- Combined with creatures that don't rely on sight to locate him then use Faerie Fire or direct damage spells (all don't target DEX).
- Depending on how the Warlock "fixes" the Darkness you may also force him to drop the object or steal it and use it for yourself.

[Unoriginal]

How good is he at Dexterity(Stealth) ?

[DeTess]

Hmm, that raises a question though. If a blind creature learns a spell that requires a target that they can see, can they still cast it?

Well, you can't target creatures that are invisible/completely obscured with spells that requires line-of sight, so if you're blinded the logical conclusion would be that you can't target those spells anymore.

[SaA]

you could even introduce a plot line that is more on the intrigue side of things like a Scooby Doo Adventure

cannot effectively murder things if there is nothing to effectively murder

though you should throw him a few thugs here and there just to make him feel special just have them be there cause generic hired thugs are things badguys do

also have the quest be about Capturing the villain so he can face judgement in a court, not killing him.

so dont make him like a evil dark overlord pent up on destorying the world/city/town

have him be a slightly less evil, like a politician, or a used horse salesman

[Kane0]

Well, you can't target creatures that are invisible/completely obscured with spells that requires line-of sight, so if you're blinded the logical conclusion would be that you can't target those spells anymore.

It was more a question of is the 'that you can see' part of a spell written like that because it's an easy way to communicate the line of sight concept in plain english or is vision actually required?
I mean it sounds pretty wierd that a grimlock or other innately eyeless creature cannot cast Magic Missile because... reasons, given that you can generally tell where someone is as long as they aren't hidden. It couldn't be a balance concern.

Maybe someone with a twitter account could ask, if it hasn't been already? Can a Grimlock cast Magic Missile?

[Erit]

Fog Cloud, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Cone of Cold, Stinking Cloud, Daylight

This if you don't feel like maneuvering stuff. But really, just use this and still maneuver stuff.

[Joe dirt]

Hi!

Yeah, this can be a nasty character but there are ways around it.
AFB so I may be mistaken about some things but...
- Daylight or Dispel should be enough to kill it instantly.
- Using any spell that can slow him down or outright stop him right in its track...
- Combined with creatures that don't rely on sight to locate him then use Faerie Fire or direct damage spells (all don't target DEX).
- Depending on how the Warlock "fixes" the Darkness you may also force him to drop the object or steal it and use it for yourself.

he "fixes" the darkness not to himself but rather to an object his invisible imp is carrying (which is typically a small coin at the end of a string)... yes he is pact of the chain, so typical action is to have imp move the darkness coin to surround target creature... he then attacks then uses cunning action to hide (with advantage since target is blind) then the imp moves the darkness. so if u target the "darkness" (which most people would naturally do) with say an area effect spell the imp and him are out of it. yes dispel magic is a good alternative might look at that but thats a 3rd level resource vs 2nd level and more importantly its a action.

[Unoriginal]

Invisible doesn't mean hidden, and even if they attempt to hide, people can be found out.

Most people would target the imp, slay it, and then throw the Darkness-covered coin far away.

[MrStabby]

The area of effect spells must surely have dealt with the familiar?

Basically anything that gives some form of disadvantage to the enemy is good - stick a couple of barbarian levels on some enemies with reckless attack (or just give them that ability), that will just eliminate the disadvantage on attacks for that enemy.

Movement, as commented is good but feel free to move the familliar.

Winning initiative can help - a fight with a hold person going off before darkness can limit it's impact.

Generally feel free to use more saves against them. Don't attack them always, shove them and grapple them. As importantly target other players who are also blinded.

[EternalPrime]

Just a few minor details:
According to page 13 of the Elemental Evil Players' Companion, Absorb Elements is NOT available to Warlocks. I don't know if that has been changed elsewhere.
If the character is hiding with advantage in the darkness, and then the imp takes the darkness away, that would cancel the advantage to the stealth roll. The advantage is because it IS dark, not because it WAS dark.

[Unoriginal]

If the character is hiding with advantage in the darkness, and then the imp takes the darkness away, that would cancel the advantage to the stealth roll. The advantage is because it IS dark, not because it WAS dark.

Actually if the character gets out of the darkness area and gets in plain view of others, the whole stealth should end.

[Contrast]

If the character is hiding with advantage in the darkness, and then the imp takes the darkness away, that would cancel the advantage to the stealth roll. The advantage is because it IS dark, not because it WAS dark.

Well...he'd lose the stealth the moment he attacked (unless he has skulker which he can't with both actor and mobile). Or if he was still hidden, there's a good chance he would simply lose it the moment he was no longer swathed in darkness - not being clearly visible is a prerequisite for being hidden.

Edit - sniped, that'll teach me to go get a drink before responding :smalltongue:

[Kane0]

Gust of wind on the familiar :smallamused:

[8wGremlin]

Just a few minor details:
According to page 13 of the Elemental Evil Players' Companion, Absorb Elements is NOT available to Warlocks. I don't know if that has been changed elsewhere.
If the character is hiding with advantage in the darkness, and then the imp takes the darkness away, that would cancel the advantage to the stealth roll. The advantage is because it IS dark, not because it WAS dark.

Is the rogue part of the character an Arcane Trickster?
Then he could pick that up as his first non illusion or enchantment spell?

[Saeviomage]

Are the other players just waiting for him to kill all their foes or something? Darkness messes up everyone in a combat.

If all he's doing is getting advantage and then hiding... kill his friends. Avoiding being targeted is a really poor tactic, because out-of-combat healing is non-transferable.

[Joe dirt]

Just a few minor details:
According to page 13 of the Elemental Evil Players' Companion, Absorb Elements is NOT available to Warlocks. I don't know if that has been changed elsewhere.
If the character is hiding with advantage in the darkness, and then the imp takes the darkness away, that would cancel the advantage to the stealth roll. The advantage is because it IS dark, not because it WAS dark.

he is an arcane trickster, he has access to some wizard spells.

and i ruled that as long as he ended in a space that isnt out in the open that his hide technique would work, it would be as if someone clicked a light off in a room and u knew where u could hide then the lights come back on. seems reasonable

[Joe dirt]

Are the other players just waiting for him to kill all their foes or something? Darkness messes up everyone in a combat.

If all he's doing is getting advantage and then hiding... kill his friends. Avoiding being targeted is a really poor tactic, because out-of-combat healing is non-transferable.

most of the time he avoids messing up the other players attacks because he moves the darkness in and out of combat

[Joe dirt]

Gust of wind on the familiar :smallamused:

remember his familiar stays invisible, most opponents would assume he cast darkness on himself, this means that any opponent that uses gust of wind would need to know beforehand that he uses an invisible familiar to manipulate the darkness

[Malifice]

How to challenge a character that is
3 warlock/7 rogue? He has mask of the many and devils sight invocations, for feats he has actor feat, mobility.... every major encounter he cast darkness and uses it to gain advantage on attacks then uses cunning action to hide in the darkness thus making him untargetable. He gets sneak attack every round and cast either green flame blade or booming blade to make the damage potential even greater. if i try to use area effect spells he has evasion and usually escapes unscathed additionally he has the absorbe elements spell which halves any potential damage from area spells.

out of combat he uses mask of the many/actor feat to become the perfect thief walking around as someone else to commit crimes then frame them on others.

How to challenge a character like this without making it fell like im singling him out?

Creatures with blindsight, tremorsense, and devils sight. No hiding for you buddy.
Grab him. No hiding for you buddy. Cant hide from someone while they hold you.

Also; how is he casting Darkness every single encounter? He should be getting 6-8 encounters per long rest, and only around 2 short rests in that time.

Police the adventuring day. That'll sort him out a bit.

[Kane0]

No need to disregard Gust of Wind just because you don't know about the familiar, it can push anything in a 10' line through the middle of the darkness (the origin of the darkness is always at it's center) be it the caster, an object/creature the darkness is placed on or whatever else the darkness is attached to. It's good in all circumstances and doesn't target Dex, plus is handy to have on hand if cloud spells are seeing use. AND it acts as both difficult terrain and can be redirected as a bonus action to really stop that darkness from getting back into position without countering it entirely and making your warlock feel like he's being targeted.

Besides, it's a spell that doesn't get that much use so it's cool to give it some spotlight.

[Joe dirt]

Creatures with blindsight, tremorsense, and devils sight. No hiding for you buddy.
Grab him. No hiding for you buddy. Cant hide from someone while they hold you.

Also; how is he casting Darkness every single encounter? He should be getting 6-8 encounters per long rest, and only around 2 short rests in that time.

Police the adventuring day. That'll sort him out a bit.

well he has levels in arcane trickster, which give him a number of additional spell slots 2 of which come back on a short rest due to his warlock. also he doesnt use it every single combat, he mostly uses his mobility to gain flanking and holds the darkness for more epic combats. and yes i know of the creatures that can see invisible, and i would put hold on him but he is slippery with mobility moving around his allies

[wilhelmdubdub]

dragons and also the spirit guardians spell help too animals with keen hearing and smell as well as pack tactics so dire wolves maybe

[Malifice]

well he has levels in arcane trickster, which give him a number of additional spell slots 2 of which come back on a short rest due to his warlock.

Cool. Just dont let him short rest or long rest that often.

Remember; darkness is likely a liability for his companions as well. If they're moving around in it, and cant see, require the occasional DC 10 Dexterity save or fall prone. Randomise the occasional attack (forcing it to target an ally instead of a friend).

Theyre trying to fight in total darkness remember.


also he doesnt use it every single combat, he mostly uses his mobility to gain flanking


Hope you're not using flanking rules. They suck.


and yes i know of the creatures that can see invisible, and i would put hold on him but he is slippery with mobility moving around his allies


Have a monster ready an action to grab the next thing that attacks him. Dont tell the player what the monster is readying. Once grabbed, the monster calls out to its allies where he is and they attack him.
Use monsters with blindsight, tremorsense, devils sight and or truesight.
Area effect weapons. Breath weapons. Spellcasters. I mean the party is 10th level - AoE effects should be very common by now.
Be tough on people fighting in total darkness. Dex saves or fall over, randomly attacking the wrong person by mistake. Monsters guessing the correct square and attacking him even though he's hidden (they flail around blindly, likely hitting something - at disadvantage)


And of course; let it work.

[Saeviomage]

most of the time he avoids messing up the other players attacks because he moves the darkness in and out of combat
In that case the monsters can just ignore him, walk out of the darkness and kill his friends.

[Joe dirt]

No need to disregard Gust of Wind just because you don't know about the familiar, it can push anything in a 10' line through the middle of the darkness (the origin of the darkness is always at it's center) be it the caster, an object/creature the darkness is placed on or whatever else the darkness is attached to. It's good in all circumstances and doesn't target Dex, plus is handy to have on hand if cloud spells are seeing use. AND it acts as both difficult terrain and can be redirected as a bonus action to really stop that darkness from getting back into position without countering it entirely and making your warlock feel like he's being targeted.

Besides, it's a spell that doesn't get that much use so it's cool to give it some spotlight.

i dont see how i can stop the darkness by moving the familiar 10ft the familiar has a fly speed i think of 40ft, but besides that if u target the darkness with anything the familiar is invisible above the darkness, it is dangling a small string with a coin below that has darkness cast on it. most enemies as u just did will assume that targeting the darkness with area effect things will damage it or stop it. on top of that casting gust of wind is an action, a very precious thing to give up in combat

[Unoriginal]

i dont see how i can stop the darkness by moving the familiar 10ft the familiar has a fly speed i think of 40ft, but besides that if u target the darkness with anything the familiar is invisible above the darkness, it is dangling a small string with a coin below that has darkness cast on it. most enemies as u just did will assume that targeting the darkness with area effect things will damage it or stop it. on top of that casting gust of wind is an action, a very precious thing to give up in combat

No, most enemies will aim at the invisible thing they can hear flying.

+5 on Dex(Stealth) when trying to hide horribly hard to spot.

Though they could also try to spot the Warlock and just grapple him while their buddies attack him.

[RickAllison]

This seems like a wonderful time to bring in the "Disarm" attack alternative from the DMG! You give up an attack to make an attack roll (with disadvantage from Darkness) against the an item the target is holding (the imp's string), and contested by Athletics or Acrobatics (with disadvantage for the imp because it is smaller). How long will that Darkness protect the imp when he is rolling a +3 with disadvantage against much higher rolls. This is an action every enemy the party comes across can use rather than something restricted to certain enemies. Yes, that random CR 1/8 bandit stands an excellent chance of neutering the strategy so that his much stronger allies can crush the puny warlock. Heck, any creature that is at least Small has this chance!

Normally, an attacker would get disadvantage on the attack roll for carrying the string with two hands. That doesn't matter when you already have it though :smallbiggrin:.

[Joe dirt]

This seems like a wonderful time to bring in the "Disarm" attack alternative from the DMG! You give up an attack to make an attack roll (with disadvantage from Darkness) against the an item the target is holding (the imp's string), and contested by Athletics or Acrobatics (with disadvantage for the imp because it is smaller). How long will that Darkness protect the imp when he is rolling a +3 with disadvantage against much higher rolls. This is an action every enemy the party comes across can use rather than something restricted to certain enemies. Yes, that random CR 1/8 bandit stands an excellent chance of neutering the strategy so that his much stronger allies can crush the puny warlock. Heck, any creature that is at least Small has this chance!

Normally, an attacker would get disadvantage on the attack roll for carrying the string with two hands. That doesn't matter when you already have it though :smallbiggrin:.

ok, lets be realistic how would the enemy even know there is an string held by an invisible imp? i would grant that someone might hear the imp, assuming the imp rolled poorly on his stealth and maybe they could put 2 and 2 together but come on, even finding a string in a 20ft sphere of darkness would be like finding a needle in a hay stack. and lets say u do disarm it... congrats u are in the darkness because the coin is now at ur feet

[Joe dirt]

No, most enemies will aim at the invisible thing they can hear flying.

+5 on Dex(Stealth) when trying to hide horribly hard to spot.

Though they could also try to spot the Warlock and just grapple him while their buddies attack him.

can u grapple something that attacks from stealth? seems like u would have to have a ready action and what if the rogue attacks a different target that round. that would mean ur monster gives up his entire round hoping to grapple and just wasted the round meanwhile he has a fighter to deal with

[Unoriginal]

ok, lets be realistic how would the enemy even know there is an string held by an invisible imp? i would grant that someone might hear the imp, assuming the imp rolled poorly on his stealth and maybe they could put 2 and 2 together but come on, even finding a string in a 20ft sphere of darkness would be like finding a needle in a hay stack. and lets say u do disarm it... congrats u are in the darkness because the coin is now at ur feet

One, finding the Imp isn't that hard. Two, once they've dealt with the Imp the darkness won't move, limiting the Warlock's efficiency a lot.

[Lombra]

Any ground-control effect will be a pickle for that character, simple difficult terrain, web spells, webs shot by spiders.

It's a high level character, there should ne spellcasting enemies fighting the party at this level.

[Joe dirt]

One, finding the Imp isn't that hard. Two, once they've dealt with the Imp the darkness won't move, limiting the Warlock's efficiency a lot.

"finding the imp isnt that hard" really? so why are invisible imps (using stealth) used as spys and scouts then? and lets say u do the disarm thing, imp uses its action to pick up the string again. meanwhile every round ur monster is taking damage, remember an invisible creature gets to stealth every round and all attacks against is at disadvantage

[Joe dirt]

Any ground-control effect will be a pickle for that character, simple difficult terrain, web spells, webs shot by spiders.

It's a high level character, there should ne spellcasting enemies fighting the party at this level.

he has mobility, difficult terrain goes away for him, and yes web spells might work, and yes some spiders have blind sight so thanks

[Malifice]

i dont see how i can stop the darkness by moving the familiar 10ft the familiar has a fly speed i think of 40ft, but besides that if u target the darkness with anything the familiar is invisible above the darkness, it is dangling a small string with a coin below that has darkness cast on it. most enemies as u just did will assume that targeting the darkness with area effect things will damage it or stop it. on top of that casting gust of wind is an action, a very precious thing to give up in combat

Joe the familiar still has to take the Hide action to hide in the darkness.

And in any event, why cant creatures figure out where it is? Id probably head to the centre of the moving patch of darkness and start swinging, particularly if I saw the Warlock cast darkness on the coin dangling underneath it.

Just use ToTM.

DM: 'The monster howls in rage in the darkness, swinging its sword around in wide arcs as it advances (rolls attack at disadvantage).'

Its not unreasonable to allow a creature stumbling about in darkness for six whole seconds swinging its axe around like crazy to get an attack roll in (albeit at disadvantage). There is no need to 'pick a single 5' square' in 5E remember.

[Joe dirt]

Joe the familiar still has to take the Hide action to hide in the darkness.

And in any event, why cant creatures figure out where it is? Id probably head to the centre of the moving patch of darkness and start swinging, particularly if I saw the Warlock cast darkness on the coin dangling underneath it.

Just use ToTM.

DM: 'The monster howls in rage in the darkness, swinging its sword around in wide arcs as it advances (rolls attack at disadvantage).'

Its not unreasonable to allow a creature stumbling about in darkness for six whole seconds swinging its axe around like crazy to get an attack roll in (albeit at disadvantage). There is no need to 'pick a single 5' square' in 5E remember.

sure its an action for the familiar to hide, so? he still gets a move action. and yes something can figure out there is a flying sound above the darkness, if u successfully roll vs the stealth of the imp. then the familiar has advantage in both spells against it, and any attacks against it. also u need some distance attack because its usually flying out of ur reach

[Kuulvheysoon]

sure its an action for the familiar to hide, so? he still gets a move action. and yes something can figure out there is a flying sound above the darkness, if u successfully roll vs the stealth of the imp. then the familiar has advantage in both spells against it, and any attacks against it. also u need some distance attack because its usually flying out of ur reach

If it’s flying out of reach, that just makes this strategy even harder to pull of from and more likely that any opponent will realize that something is up. Darkness is a sphere, remember, not a column. So if the imp is flying, any opponent with average intelligence will see that the sphere isnt centered on the ground.

[Joe dirt]

If it’s flying out of reach, that just makes this strategy even harder to pull of from and more likely that any opponent will realize that something is up. Darkness is a sphere, remember, not a column. So if the imp is flying, any opponent with average intelligence will see that the sphere isnt centered on the ground.

the imp keeps the coin at the end of the string in a position where opponents will think its a rogue with darkness running around

[Kuulvheysoon]

the imp keeps the coin at the end of the string in a position where opponents will think its a rogue with darkness running around

If that’s the case, same scenario. There’s momentum to get involved, and if it’s flying up the string isn’t going to play out smoothly. It’ll be jerky, or swing wildly from side to side (you try moving 30ft in 6 seconds and keep a small object at the end of a long string completely stable). It’ll still cover the rogue, sure, but anybody (again, with average intelligence) will figure out that something is up.

[Malifice]

sure its an action for the familiar to hide, so? he still gets a move action. and yes something can figure out there is a flying sound above the darkness, if u successfully roll vs the stealth of the imp.

I dont think English is your first language, but yea thats the rub of it (I think).


then the familiar has advantage in both spells against it,

Darkness doesnt grant advantage to Stealth checks to hide. It just enables them in the first place.

[Willie the Duck]

This is a subset of the basic problem with 'invisibility' shenanigans that have existed since the game began. If the DM treats unseen as untargetable, people who can perpetuate an unseen state will run away with the game.

OP, as the DM in question, you seem to think this situation is hopeless, and as long as you do, it is.
However, there are so many moving parts involved in this scenario, I just don't know how you've not been able to find a way around it. There's the warlock/rogue, their darkvision, their darkness ability, their stealth skill, the imp, the item the imp is carrying, the imp's stealth skill, and of course the very act of casting spells (with all the v, s, m, etc. requirements that has).

The first thing I can think of is have the enemies target the imp while the warlock is casting the spell (the imp is visible while the warlock is casting darkness, right? Otherwise how is the item the imp is carrying being targeted for the darkness spell?).

Regardless, if you treat darkness as a trump card, hands down, untargetable character no arguments, then it will be.

[Alejandro]

If that’s the case, same scenario. There’s momentum to get involved, and if it’s flying up the string isn’t going to play out smoothly. It’ll be jerky, or swing wildly from side to side (you try moving 30ft in 6 seconds and keep a small object at the end of a long string completely stable). It’ll still cover the rogue, sure, but anybody (again, with average intelligence) will figure out that something is up.

This is actually a really good point. The entire darkness area is going to be swaying and bouncing around wildly as the coin sways on the string; most foes are going to figure out something is up.

Should also note, regarding Darkness: "Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness." If the enemies start to wise up to what is going on (whether that there's an invisible thing flying around, or that a spell is radiating from some wildly bouncing object) they may simply try throwing a few tarps or blankets, trying to catch whatever it is. If anything manages to snag the dangling coin, the darkness will vanish.

[robbie374]

This is actually a really good point. The entire darkness area is going to be swaying and bouncing around wildly as the coin sways on the string; most foes are going to figure out something is up.

This is a great point. An ordinary bat is CR 0 and has Int of 2 (-4), but bats are perfectly capable of avoiding danger from moving things and snatching bugs out of the sky. So are owls (Int 3, no blindsight). Any creature your party runs into is perfectly capable of hunting that Imp and his moving coin without much difficulty, not to mention the Rogue himself. They'll figure out where he is even with the Darkness.

If there were a bat around, the bat would fly straight to the target. Any other enemy would then know exactly where it is.

[robbie374]

Should also note, regarding Darkness: "Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness." If the enemies start to wise up to what is going on (whether that there's an invisible thing flying around, or that a spell is radiating from some wildly bouncing object) they may simply try throwing a few tarps or blankets, trying to catch whatever it is. If anything manages to snag the dangling coin, the darkness will vanish.

Furthermore, is there terrain at all? One rock or tree or anything, even other allies and enemies, will cast a very obvious "light shadow" when the darkness gets blocked by it. Finding the source is trivial.

[Joe dirt]

If that’s the case, same scenario. There’s momentum to get involved, and if it’s flying up the string isn’t going to play out smoothly. It’ll be jerky, or swing wildly from side to side (you try moving 30ft in 6 seconds and keep a small object at the end of a long string completely stable). It’ll still cover the rogue, sure, but anybody (again, with average intelligence) will figure out that something is up.

sorry but i dont think it would be intuitive, for example if he cast it on the end of his sword, the sword would be doing all the swaying and bobbing and unless u observed the 2 before u would not instinctively know the difference, now i could use that for his main opponent that has had spys to follow the groups tactics but for the average say giant they run into they would not have that knowledge

[Joe dirt]

This is a subset of the basic problem with 'invisibility' shenanigans that have existed since the game began. If the DM treats unseen as untargetable, people who can perpetuate an unseen state will run away with the game.

OP, as the DM in question, you seem to think this situation is hopeless, and as long as you do, it is.
However, there are so many moving parts involved in this scenario, I just don't know how you've not been able to find a way around it. There's the warlock/rogue, their darkvision, their darkness ability, their stealth skill, the imp, the item the imp is carrying, the imp's stealth skill, and of course the very act of casting spells (with all the v, s, m, etc. requirements that has).

The first thing I can think of is have the enemies target the imp while the warlock is casting the spell (the imp is visible while the warlock is casting darkness, right? Otherwise how is the item the imp is carrying being targeted for the darkness spell?).

Regardless, if you treat darkness as a trump card, hands down, untargetable character no arguments, then it will be.

no the situation isn't hopeless, and thanks for the many suggestions. much appreciated, i think the most likely thing i will do is just keep an encounter or 2 per day that something has either blindsight or works with something that has blindsight or dispell magic. seems the best solution but i also dont want to make the player feel like his tactic would never work as any player with this ability would naturally want to use it. but i feel the big bosses would definitely be on to his tactics and have a counter.

as far as targeting the imp... wont work his imp sits on his shoulder invisible and most of his adventuring starts from stealth. so i think he would get the spell off then the imp rolls for stealth as it flys off as a ball of darkness

[JNAProductions]

Which still requires a Stealth roll-a good Perception modifier or just a lucky roll will let them hear the Imp flapping its wings, for instance.

[robbie374]

sorry but i dont think it would be intuitive, for example if he cast it on the end of his sword, the sword would be doing all the swaying and bobbing and unless u observed the 2 before u would not instinctively know the difference, now i could use that for his main opponent that has had spys to follow the groups tactics but for the average say giant they run into they would not have that knowledge

Know the difference between what? Whatever the darkness is cast on is easily identified and targeted. If he casts it on the sword rather than himself, then the sword will get attacked and possibly be destroyed by the damage dealt to it. Certainly the rogue would end up disarmed, at least.

Furthermore, at that close range, any creature with ordinary hearing or smell could easily find the guy standing right next to him (which finding the creature would do after it used its movement to close the gap and before it makes its attack). If a mosquito is buzzing in your ear, you know pretty clearly where it is. If that mosquito is human-sized, you can smack it without question, and you aren't a trained adventurer. If the rogue hasn't taken the time to bathe in the last 24 hours, any creature on earth will be able to smell him from a few feet away, and farther if its been longer. That darkness won't protect him if the enemy can get anywhere near him.

[robbie374]

no the situation isn't hopeless, and thanks for the many suggestions. much appreciated, i think the most likely thing i will do is just keep an encounter or 2 per day that something has either blindsight or works with something that has blindsight or dispell magic. seems the best solution but i also dont want to make the player feel like his tactic would never work as any player with this ability would naturally want to use it. but i feel the big bosses would definitely be on to his tactics and have a counter.

as far as targeting the imp... wont work his imp sits on his shoulder invisible and most of his adventuring starts from stealth. so i think he would get the spell off then the imp rolls for stealth as it flys off as a ball of darkness

Just remember: hearing and smell are normal parts of the game. Some creatures have advantage on those checks. Any creature (including the PCs!) can do an ordinary Wisdom (Perception) check using other senses. Darkness and Invisibility only protect against sight. And Stealth is definitely useless against smell.

[Unoriginal]

"finding the imp isnt that hard" really? so why are invisible imps (using stealth) used as spys and scouts then?

Because they're competent at it, but there is a difference between spying on people and staying hidden in the middle of a fight when the opponents are specifically searching for someone they have trouble to see (since the Warlock is harassing them)

+5 to Dex(Stealth) is more than decent, don't get me wrong, but on a low roll they're still detected by Passive Perception alone, let alone active Wis(Perception) checks.


and lets say u do the disarm thing, imp uses its action to pick up the string again. /QUOTE]

Nah, I'm saying "kill the imp".

[QUOTE=Joe dirt;22522186]
meanwhile every round ur monster is taking damage, remember an invisible creature gets to stealth every round and all attacks against is at disadvantage

Even with disadvantage, 13 AC and 10 HPs isn't that much of a problem for monsters.

[SharkForce]

just to be clear: mobile doesn't ignore difficult terrain. mobile ignores terrain *while using a dash action*.

since your rogue is using bonus action to hide and regular action to make attacks, that means no dash which means no ignoring difficult terrain.

and in any event, enemies should be easily able to figure out where the darkness spell is coming from. they don't need to attack the imp, or the rogue, to end the darkness, they just need to hit the string that the coin is hanging from with a sharp object. and they'll know at least the general area of the string easily. once the string is cut, the coin falls to the ground. maybe it even gets covered up, though i don't think that's going to be a default reaction for all creatures by any means (if you're fighting drow that can all cast darkness, they'll know how to deal with it, or an experienced spellcaster might know to shout orders to try to cover where the darkness spell fell).

also, a coin swinging from a string is going to be very different from a sword being moved around. if the imp then picks up the coin, the imp will be an easy next target, because again that'll give away its location (at the center of the darkness) even if it has used a successful hide check; it's location is no longer obscured.

but mostly, just don't pull punches on anyone else. the rogue is dealing moderately good damage, but is very unlikely to actually represent more of a threat than all the other people in the party. don't have enemies go after the hard-to-hit rogue with decent but not amazing offense. have them go after the much easier targets that are most likely just as threatening if not more so. and if the party complains that they don't have enough healing, just point out that the rogue has 5 hit dice of healing per day that isn't getting used; not your fault the damage isn't being spread around, what kind of enemy would bother going after the rogue when there are equally important targets that are much easier to hit?

edit: for clarity, this is all assuming you were to convert your extra sorcerer spell slots gained from the extra sorcerer level into SP, which may not always be a good idea (for example, at sorcerer level 5 you *could* turn your shiny new level 3 spell slots into sorcery points, but you'll probably get better value out of using fireball or hypnotic pattern or something instead, so i don't recommend it in most situations). of course, if you're not doing that it's because you think leaving them as spell slots is more valuable than their SP value, so that would actually push things further in favour of the sorcerer level.

[Joe dirt]

Just remember: hearing and smell are normal parts of the game. Some creatures have advantage on those checks. Any creature (including the PCs!) can do an ordinary Wisdom (Perception) check using other senses. Darkness and Invisibility only protect against sight. And Stealth is definitely useless against smell.

can u name a creature that uses smell alone to target people with an attack? sure u could find the direction someone went with smell but is smell so accurate in the chaos of a fight that u could target a specific square like a radar system. and stealth does cover hearing as well

i have used smell before as a clue to players that they were being watched by invisible creatures. basically i had an invisible stalker that smelled of ozone. but i would never give a player the ability to target a specific square just because they smelled something from a particular direction.

[JNAProductions]

They just need to get the general area, then attack wildly. It'll be with disadvantage, but they've got the location.

[robbie374]

can u name a creature that uses smell alone to target people with an attack? sure u could find the direction someone went with smell but is smell so accurate in the chaos of a fight that u could target a specific square like a radar system. and stealth does cover hearing as well

Smell doesn't have long-distance accuracy, but as mentioned before. there are lots of ways to find the approximate center of the darkness. All the enemy has to do is find the approximate center, move there, then smell for the target who by now is within 5 ft, and then use its action to attack. At a short distance like that, it won't be difficult to find the target by smell.

Smell is easily accurate enough in the chaos of the fight to zero in on a target next to you. Especially consider that you are not trying to see, because you know it is dark: you are focusing on smelling and hearing. Also, nearly every creature that lives in dark places or lives in the wild uses smell on a regular basis.

Incidentally, science has shown that humans are equally gifted in smelling as rats and dogs who are famous for it: we just emphasize different senses. If we needed to (Darkness spell!) we could refocus our attention, and people who live in dim or dark conditions are already likely to have better sense beyond sight.

Yes, Stealth covers hearing, which is why I didn't mention it.

You could give disadvantage on attacks based on smell if you want, but any creature should be able to get very close to a Darkness-hider this way without much difficulty.

Here's the question for you: Your original post suggested you have a problem with this Warlock/Rogue and that you want a solution, but your responses suggest that you want to do everything you can to make sure he retains his advantage. Which is it? Do you want to solve the problem, or do you want to nitpick solutions to make sure none is perfect enough to work?

Edit: I see that you added a note about smell and not targeting. The difference I am suggesting is that the enemy is smelling a direction when already adjacent to his target. Smell is not very accurate from 30 ft away, but discerning the general center by other means, then moving there, now 5 ft away, smell becomes far more useful. A stabbing attack would still have disadvantage, but slashing or bludgeoning or anything else less directional would not.

[Willie the Duck]

can u name a creature that uses smell alone to target people with an attack? sure u could find the direction someone went with smell but is smell so accurate in the chaos of a fight that u could target a specific square like a radar system. and stealth does cover hearing as well

If wolves cannot sense an invisible individual via smell, and potentially attack (yes, with disadvantage) someone they can only sense via smell, then something is seriously wrong with the rules. Yes, even down to the square, and no, that doesn't make it like radar. That makes it realistic.

[Unoriginal]

can u name a creature that uses smell alone to target people with an attack? sure u could find the direction someone went with smell but is smell so accurate in the chaos of a fight that u could target a specific square like a radar system. and stealth does cover hearing as well

i have used smell before as a clue to players that they were being watched by invisible creatures. basically i had an invisible stalker that smelled of ozone. but i would never give a player the ability to target a specific square just because they smelled something from a particular direction.

Any creature with Keen Smell would easily do it, for starter.

[Danielqueue1]

I like a lot of the suggestions in this post. some more things to consider.

as has been mentioned before, the party is level 10. the things they are facing are likely to be cunning and powerful. and in some settings the party will be well known. creatures that escape the party's wrath will likely warn others and the entire party's tactics may be known to the main villain. so there is reason to suspect enemies to plan ahead.

strategies.
get rid of the darkness-

Dispel magic; "a part of this good breakfast" it works all over the place and is not unreasonable to have casters with this at the ready at level 10.

counterspell; really sucks the life out of spellcasters of all shapes sizes and alignments.

Daylight; bright light all around, dispels darkness and will make the way of the shadows monk annoyed. but even better, why waste a caster's turn to use daylight when you can have a common goblin activate a cheap driftglobe. and at the end of the encounter, the party gets a driftglobe win-win.

break concentration- hit the warlock with a stick. with all those feats and multiclass I'm doubting he's got that great of a con mod. so a bit of acid, poison or even caltrops could knock him out of concentration. enemies that deal damage to melee attackers are fun for this.

anti-magic; might be a bit too high level at this point.

see invisibility is a rather low level spell that an enemy might cast before the encounter begins if they know a party of adventurers is coming down the hall. (goodbye imp)

retreat; take a step back. close the reinforced door and wait.

ignoring the darkness-

devil's sight, blind-sight, true-sight, tremor-sense all make darkness moot.

his allies are just as good a target

overcoming the darkness's disadvantages-

disadvantage; it negates all advantages including the ones that promote sneak attack. level the playing field with fog cloud and the like.

there are lots of ways to gives a character advantage on attack rolls which negates the disadvantage imposed. and once hit remember the concentration from above.

take advantage of initiative order; the familiar acts on its own initiative so if the familiar moves the darkness the enemy may have time to take action such as dodging, or leaving the darkness, or casting a protective spell, or shooting the rogue that is might no longer be in darkness and likely without cover.

restricting the movement of the rogue-
difficult terrain; Mobile only negates difficult terrain if the rogue dashes. the rogue needs to use a bonus action to hide to gain the benefits of being hidden. and if he's using his action to attack. he only gets one.

multiple enemies; rogues don't get multi-attack. mobile only prevents op-attacks from targets attacked.

walls; whether walls of force, wood or stone, walls can seriously affect combat. fortresses are designed to surround people attacking the limited entry ways surround the enemy with ranged attacks from a distance split the parties attention. (this is level 10 enemies have forts by now.)

seriously though one wizard with wall of force can completely change the dynamic of battle.

traps. just because he can see in darkness doesn't means he sees everything. a kobold cave is a dangerous place to walk even in bright light. and the denizens already know where all the trap triggers are.

grapples/restraints; ropes, snares, giant octopuses, chain devils, nets. stop the rogue. and he becomes much less of a threat.and if he is restrained then the tables turn and you are the one with advantage.

restricting the movement of the imp

a ceiling. can't fly 10 feet above darkness if the roof isn't 30 feet high.

gust of wind. getting pushed back 15 feet +difficult terrain moving back means the imp is going to have to go around or barely move at all.

nets are underused in my opinion. need to use an action to get out of and it only takes one successful attack to restrain you. restrained imp is a dead imp.

grab the coin; have anyone who can see through darkness grab the coin. win a strength contest against a tiny creature and now you have darkness for your side unless the rogue dispels it. and he's going to need another object to try it again with.

also AE poison stuff. kill the imp even if it makes its save and makes the rogue not want to get close.

and of course any number of other ideas. this isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but I have yet to find any uncounterable builds in 5th edition.

[Joe dirt]

If wolves cannot sense an invisible individual via smell, and potentially attack (yes, with disadvantage) someone they can only sense via smell, then something is seriously wrong with the rules. Yes, even down to the square, and no, that doesn't make it like radar. That makes it realistic.

true, but the wolf would first need a perception check and then track it to the square, finding someone hidden is not automatic. and then they would still attack at disadvantage. i agree with u there, i think some people were arguing that they dont even need to see to attack.... one perception check with the nose and they can for example use range weapons against invisible opponents does not fly with me

i will start to use this, thanks

[Joe dirt]

I like a lot of the suggestions in this post. some more things to consider.

as has been mentioned before, the party is level 10. the things they are facing are likely to be cunning and powerful. and in some settings the party will be well known. creatures that escape the party's wrath will likely warn others and the entire party's tactics may be known to the main villain. so there is reason to suspect enemies to plan ahead.

strategies.
get rid of the darkness-

Dispel magic; "a part of this good breakfast" it works all over the place and is not unreasonable to have casters with this at the ready at level 10.

counterspell; really sucks the life out of spellcasters of all shapes sizes and alignments.

Daylight; bright light all around, dispels darkness and will make the way of the shadows monk annoyed. but even better, why waste a caster's turn to use daylight when you can have a common goblin activate a cheap driftglobe. and at the end of the encounter, the party gets a driftglobe win-win.

break concentration- hit the warlock with a stick. with all those feats and multiclass I'm doubting he's got that great of a con mod. so a bit of acid, poison or even caltrops could knock him out of concentration. enemies that deal damage to melee attackers are fun for this.

anti-magic; might be a bit too high level at this point.

see invisibility is a rather low level spell that an enemy might cast before the encounter begins if they know a party of adventurers is coming down the hall. (goodbye imp)

retreat; take a step back. close the reinforced door and wait.

ignoring the darkness-

devil's sight, blind-sight, true-sight, tremor-sense all make darkness moot.

his allies are just as good a target

overcoming the darkness's disadvantages-

disadvantage; it negates all advantages including the ones that promote sneak attack. level the playing field with fog cloud and the like.

there are lots of ways to gives a character advantage on attack rolls which negates the disadvantage imposed. and once hit remember the concentration from above.

take advantage of initiative order; the familiar acts on its own initiative so if the familiar moves the darkness the enemy may have time to take action such as dodging, or leaving the darkness, or casting a protective spell, or shooting the rogue that is might no longer be in darkness and likely without cover.

restricting the movement of the rogue-
difficult terrain; Mobile only negates difficult terrain if the rogue dashes. the rogue needs to use a bonus action to hide to gain the benefits of being hidden. and if he's using his action to attack. he only gets one.

multiple enemies; rogues don't get multi-attack. mobile only prevents op-attacks from targets attacked.

walls; whether walls of force, wood or stone, walls can seriously affect combat. fortresses are designed to surround people attacking the limited entry ways surround the enemy with ranged attacks from a distance split the parties attention. (this is level 10 enemies have forts by now.)

seriously though one wizard with wall of force can completely change the dynamic of battle.

traps. just because he can see in darkness doesn't means he sees everything. a kobold cave is a dangerous place to walk even in bright light. and the denizens already know where all the trap triggers are.

grapples/restraints; ropes, snares, giant octopuses, chain devils, nets. stop the rogue. and he becomes much less of a threat.and if he is restrained then the tables turn and you are the one with advantage.

restricting the movement of the imp

a ceiling. can't fly 10 feet above darkness if the roof isn't 30 feet high.

gust of wind. getting pushed back 15 feet +difficult terrain moving back means the imp is going to have to go around or barely move at all.

nets are underused in my opinion. need to use an action to get out of and it only takes one successful attack to restrain you. restrained imp is a dead imp.

grab the coin; have anyone who can see through darkness grab the coin. win a strength contest against a tiny creature and now you have darkness for your side unless the rogue dispels it. and he's going to need another object to try it again with.

also AE poison stuff. kill the imp even if it makes its save and makes the rogue not want to get close.

and of course any number of other ideas. this isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but I have yet to find any uncounterable builds in 5th edition.

i like the wall thing, and of course traps, i was thinking since he likes shiny things of using his greed against him. u see out of combat he uses the mask of many to walk around and steal anything not tied down. so i like the idea of seeding him with the promise of treasure and using a trap to capture him once the shiny is removed from the box

[Contrast]

I'm still a little confused over the action economy here. How is he hiding in the darkness and attacking while maintaining stealth without disrupting the rest of the party?

Seems like that would take multiple actions/bonus actions to pull off. I can see that he could run in, stab and hide but then the imp would have to pull back to not disrupt the rest of the party, leaving the rogue exposed. If he dashes back with the imp then he doesn't have a bonus action to stealth after the stab. Depending on initiative order the imp and rogue may have difficultly co-ordinating as well. Even if the imp readies to move when the rogue attacks, that means he's using his action to do that instead of dodge or hide.

That's assuming we're fighting in a wide open field and he's had the chance to flank. If you're fighting in a corridor or whatever the imp doesn't have anywhere to go which isn't going to mess up the party (though he could just cover it in his hands I guess but that leaves the rogue exposed for reprisal and its pretty questionable if that would work while he's invisible).

I'd also point out he's spending his action to cast darkness which is effectively a buff for him and area debuff for everyone else (including the party). In my experience most combats only last 3-5 rounds. It might make him more survivable but it isn't doing the rest of the party any favours and it'll only take the odd instance where its actively detrimental (either by an opponent who relies on other senses or a wizard ducking in so they can teleport away without being counterspelled or whatever) for them to get increasingly grumpy with him.

[Joe dirt]

I'm still a little confused over the action economy here. How is he hiding in the darkness and attacking while maintaining stealth without disrupting the rest of the party?

Seems like that would take multiple actions/bonus actions to pull off. I can see that he could run in, stab and hide but then the imp would have to pull back to not disrupt the rest of the party, leaving the rogue exposed. If he dashes back with the imp then he doesn't have a bonus action to stealth after the stab. Depending on initiative order the imp and rogue may have difficultly co-ordinating as well. Even if the imp readies to move when the rogue attacks, that means he's using his action to do that instead of dodge or hide.

That's assuming we're fighting in a wide open field and he's had the chance to flank. If you're fighting in a corridor or whatever the imp doesn't have anywhere to go which isn't going to mess up the party (though he could just cover it in his hands I guess but that leaves the rogue exposed for reprisal and its pretty questionable if that would work while he's invisible).

I'd also point out he's spending his action to cast darkness which is effectively a buff for him and area debuff for everyone else (including the party). In my experience most combats only last 3-5 rounds. It might make him more survivable but it isn't doing the rest of the party any favours and it'll only take the odd instance where its actively detrimental (either by an opponent who relies on other senses or a wizard ducking in so they can teleport away without being counterspelled or whatever) for them to get increasingly grumpy with him.

a rogue gets to hide as a bonus action... its called cunning action, he attacks then hides in the darkness finds a place out of the way then the imp confuses the enemy by moving the darkness where he is not making the typical enemy think he is still in the darkness. (you know the big dumb troll or what not)

[robbie374]

The point about initiative order is very important. Normally, it is easier just to let the familiar and the PC act on the same turn, but RAW they must roll for initiative separately, which makes coordination of the two more complicated, with more room for error. In this regard, remember that you cannot Ready both your action and your movement: you can only Ready one or the other.

[Contrast]

a rogue gets to hide as a bonus action... its called cunning action, he attacks then hides in the darkness finds a place out of the way then the imp confuses the enemy by moving the darkness where he is not making the typical enemy think he is still in the darkness. (you know the big dumb troll or what not)

You'll note I mentioned using a bonus action to hide right there in the text you quoted :smalltongue:

So...per the bolded section the imp is moving the darkness so he's not actually in the darkness at all? So he's just standing out in the open? Likely within a few feet of an enemy as he doesn't have a left over bonus action to dash away (which incidentally as others have mentioned means he isn't ignoring difficult terrain)?

Yeah, under most circumstances he's no longer hidden. Unless there's something else blocking their line of sight they can see and target him as per normal.

[brainface]

ok, lets be realistic how would the enemy even know there is an string held by an invisible imp?
Phhbbbbbbt.

Depending on how long that string is, I'd think it should be swinging back and forth like a pendulum--I don't think you should let him have perfect control of this rube goldberg contraption he's made. Also, wind is going to move that string--gust of wind might not hit the imp, but it'd throw the darkness-emitting coin out of the way (and maybe drag the imp along with it.)

Also: consider Flame Strike. It's sensible to target it at the center of the darkness, and it's a 40-foot high column. Fog cloud has been mentioned, sleet storm, other sight-destroying spells will remove his darkness advantage.

(Also, I think your ruling on letting him maintain advantage on stealth while not in the darkness is being overgenerous--you might want to rethink that?)


In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you.

If he leaves darkness, I'd think he's simply not hidden anymore, unless allies are helping to distract the opponent.

[Malifice]

can u name a creature that uses smell alone to target people with an attack? sure u could find the direction someone went with smell but is smell so accurate in the chaos of a fight that u could target a specific square like a radar system. and stealth does cover hearing as well

i have used smell before as a clue to players that they were being watched by invisible creatures. basically i had an invisible stalker that smelled of ozone. but i would never give a player the ability to target a specific square just because they smelled something from a particular direction.

Joe, I dont think you're doing hiding right.

On the Warlocks turn it casts darkness (as its action) on the Familiar. The Warlock then uses cunning action to hide in the darkness (as a bonus action).

Now the Familiar also has to Hide as its action.

If the familiar is invisible before comat starts, it can use the Hide action pre combat to Hide (invisibly) on the Warlocks shoulder. Of course, in this case Im curious as to how the Warlock is targetting the familiar with darkness.

In either case both the PC and the Imp need to roll higher than your monsters passive perception scores to be hidden. And it might still be pretty obvious where they are in any event (the centre of the patch of moving darkness is where I would be headed or attacking towards.)

[Elric VIII]

I just want to chime in and say be careful of how you go about countering the darkness. I can tell you that, as a player, I would be a bit annoyed of every random bugbear had the mental capacity to figure out what te darkness is centered on based on the way it swings around. I'd also take issue with too many enemies having intimate knowledge of game mechanics to the point that they can figure out the suspended coin trick by seeing where the sphere of darkness intersects thw ground.


It it is worth it to note that hidden doesn't mean untargetable. If he is already in the darkness they have disadvantage when attacking him. Hiding doesn't change anything with regards to that; they can still attempt to attack with disadvantage.


And one final note: beware of using bad luck as a counter (such as the coin falling under something if the strong is cut). If you want to do something like that, set up a percent chance and roll for it.

[Willie the Duck]

I just want to chime in and say be careful of how you go about countering the darkness. I can tell you that, as a player, I would be a bit annoyed of every random bugbear had the mental capacity to figure out what te darkness is centered on based on the way it swings around. I'd also take issue with too many enemies having intimate knowledge of game mechanics to the point that they can figure out the suspended coin trick by seeing where the sphere of darkness intersects thw ground.

While true, this is a general problem of what to do when a player has found a 'particularly effective exploit' -- do you congratulate them on finding it and let it stand, or shut it down in some way? It always depends on how much it makes mincemeat of the rest of the game. As has been pointed out, making one rogue not-even-remotely-invincible is usually not game-breaking, but it can become a tiringly disruptive thing.


It it is worth it to note that hidden doesn't mean untargetable. If he is already in the darkness they have disadvantage when attacking him. Hiding doesn't change anything with regards to that; they can still attempt to attack with disadvantage.

Well, that has been the discussion up until now. OP seems to be very reluctant to believe that the opponents would be able to find the right square to be able to attack the rogue at disadvantage. It appears that few if anyone agrees.

[RickAllison]

I just want to chime in and say be careful of how you go about countering the darkness. I can tell you that, as a player, I would be a bit annoyed of every random bugbear had the mental capacity to figure out what te darkness is centered on based on the way it swings around. I'd also take issue with too many enemies having intimate knowledge of game mechanics to the point that they can figure out the suspended coin trick by seeing where the sphere of darkness intersects thw ground.


It it is worth it to note that hidden doesn't mean untargetable. If he is already in the darkness they have disadvantage when attacking him. Hiding doesn't change anything with regards to that; they can still attempt to attack with disadvantage.


And one final note: beware of using bad luck as a counter (such as the coin falling under something if the strong is cut). If you want to do something like that, set up a percent chance and roll for it.

Actually, I think that the PC is sufficiently high level that he might have a reputation if he remains in one area for too long. Going from the PHB, he is on the cusp of confronting threats to entire regions and continents and that power level carries infamy even if he doesn't exercise the full possibilities of said power. If anyone, enemy or ally, has survived to tell of his style of fighting, it is quite reasonable that all those orcs and bandits, vampires, anything that has contact with other humanoid settlements or that keeps tabs on potential foes has heard of him.

The way I would do this is to give him some cool in-universe nickname, like the Demon-in-Darkness and namedrop that during an encounter or two. Then, you have a captain or other strategic enemy in a group warning them about how to defeat the rogue. If the rogue continues with the pattern, most intelligent enemies who have contact with local society (even if just to raid them) should know about the strategy and how it works. By the time you have a level 10 PC who uses it as a default strategy, it would be metagaming to NOT have intelligent enemies be aware of it. When an extremely effective strategy is consistently put into play, the people who get screwed over by it develop counterstrategies.

This doesn't mean that the rogue has to give up the strategy. Honestly, he should latch onto the sinister urban legends that may crop up related to it! However he should not expect it to work all the time. That is the problem with relying on one tactic, others will find ways to oppose it. Maybe he can apply Darkness to different things. If the enemies are expecting him to have cast it on the dangling coin, maybe he should stick it on his weapon. Maybe the imp is whirling it around his head instead of just dangling it. If enemies are using hard counters like truesight, Devil's Sight, or higher-level light spells, he has to develop work-arounds. If they are just relying on previous knowledge to know where to target, he should be rogue-y and mess with those expectations by shifting them around.

TL;DR: Level 10 PCs are usually either famous, or infamous. They are like the Red Baron, or Che Guevara, and a signature tactic that is consistently employed by a PC will be known by intelligent enemies, or any of average intelligent that keep contact with the world. This isn't metagaming, this is reality, and it doesn't prevent the character from using the strategy so much as it forces new ways to think about it.

[SharkForce]

I just want to chime in and say be careful of how you go about countering the darkness. I can tell you that, as a player, I would be a bit annoyed of every random bugbear had the mental capacity to figure out what te darkness is centered on based on the way it swings around. I'd also take issue with too many enemies having intimate knowledge of game mechanics to the point that they can figure out the suspended coin trick by seeing where the sphere of darkness intersects thw ground.


It it is worth it to note that hidden doesn't mean untargetable. If he is already in the darkness they have disadvantage when attacking him. Hiding doesn't change anything with regards to that; they can still attempt to attack with disadvantage.


And one final note: beware of using bad luck as a counter (such as the coin falling under something if the strong is cut). If you want to do something like that, set up a percent chance and roll for it.

- why wouldn't a random bugbear be able to figure out that there's something important at the middle of a globe of darkness? not necessarily "hey, that's a coin with a darkness spell hanging from a string carried by an invisible imp", but "hey, i bet the source of that darkness is in the middle of the darkness" is really all you need to start swinging away at the middle of the darkness, and that's not too hard to figure out at all.

- actually, hidden pretty much does mean untargetable. if you're just in the darkness, you're obscured, not hidden. hidden means they have no idea what your location is. they could maybe go and attack an area and hope that you're in it, but they won't be attacking you, they'll be attacking an area. that said, if the darkness moves away and the rogue doesn't have a good hiding place still (needs to be obscured), you're no longer hidden, so it still may not work out terribly well for the rogue.

[Arte]

Easiest way ankhegs, certain undead, any dragon and some monstrosities.

He is set up to take on a humanoid campaign from what it seems like. But yea once you get to a higher level consider he has only 2 spell slots so he needs to take a short rest... so don't give him the chance.

Cutting down the resources available is simple enough for a Warlock. Rogues generally are tricky because of cunning actions but the old darkness and devil sight trick to be honest isn't even being abused by him. When he gets to a high enough level he might go paladin... and then you'll be crying at his damage potential with sneak attack.

[Malifice]

It it is worth it to note that hidden doesn't mean untargetable. If he is already in the darkness they have disadvantage when attacking him. Hiding doesn't change anything with regards to that; they can still attempt to attack with disadvantage.

It does. If you're hidden they dont know where you are anymore.

An invisible rogue who has hidden (via the Hide action) cant be freely targeted with attacks. You can swing (at disadvantage) with a guess of course, but you dont know where he is.

If he hasnt used the Hide action (and is invisible, but not hidden) then you dont have to guess. The game presumes you have enough of a rough idea where he is in order to swing (at disadvantage).

[Elric VIII]

Actually, I think that the PC is sufficiently high level that he might have a reputation if he remains in one area for too long. Going from the PHB, he is on the cusp of confronting threats to entire regions and continents and that power level carries infamy even if he doesn't exercise the full possibilities of said power. If anyone, enemy or ally, has survived to tell of his style of fighting, it is quite reasonable that all those orcs and bandits, vampires, anything that has contact with other humanoid settlements or that keeps tabs on potential foes has heard of him.

The way I would do this is to give him some cool in-universe nickname, like the Demon-in-Darkness and namedrop that during an encounter or two. Then, you have a captain or other strategic enemy in a group warning them about how to defeat the rogue. If the rogue continues with the pattern, most intelligent enemies who have contact with local society (even if just to raid them) should know about the strategy and how it works. By the time you have a level 10 PC who uses it as a default strategy, it would be metagaming to NOT have intelligent enemies be aware of it. When an extremely effective strategy is consistently put into play, the people who get screwed over by it develop counterstrategies.

This doesn't mean that the rogue has to give up the strategy. Honestly, he should latch onto the sinister urban legends that may crop up related to it! However he should not expect it to work all the time. That is the problem with relying on one tactic, others will find ways to oppose it. Maybe he can apply Darkness to different things. If the enemies are expecting him to have cast it on the dangling coin, maybe he should stick it on his weapon. Maybe the imp is whirling it around his head instead of just dangling it. If enemies are using hard counters like truesight, Devil's Sight, or higher-level light spells, he has to develop work-arounds. If they are just relying on previous knowledge to know where to target, he should be rogue-y and mess with those expectations by shifting them around.

TL;DR: Level 10 PCs are usually either famous, or infamous. They are like the Red Baron, or Che Guevara, and a signature tactic that is consistently employed by a PC will be known by intelligent enemies, or any of average intelligent that keep contact with the world. This isn't metagaming, this is reality, and it doesn't prevent the character from using the strategy so much as it forces new ways to think about it.

This is a reasonable way to deal with things (it even adds a plot hook and some validation for the PC). Some of the other suggestions seem like the equivalent of the early Elder's Scrolls series problem of omniscient city guards. Steal an apple on the east side of the continent and some jerk on the west side of it will chase you down.



- why wouldn't a random bugbear be able to figure out that there's something important at the middle of a globe of darkness? not necessarily "hey, that's a coin with a darkness spell hanging from a string carried by an invisible imp", but "hey, i bet the source of that darkness is in the middle of the darkness" is really all you need to start swinging away at the middle of the darkness, and that's not too hard to figure out at all.

How would the bugbear know how the darkness spell works? How does it know that the darkness is a completely safe place to run into swinging? Although if the NPCs do start doing this you can bet Hunger of Hadar is going to become a lot better for the Warlock.


- actually, hidden pretty much does mean untargetable. if you're just in the darkness, you're obscured, not hidden. hidden means they have no idea what your location is. they could maybe go and attack an area and hope that you're in it, but they won't be attacking you, they'll be attacking an area. that said, if the darkness moves away and the rogue doesn't have a good hiding place still (needs to be obscured), you're no longer hidden, so it still may not work out terribly well for the rogue.


It does. If you're hidden they dont know where you are anymore.

An invisible rogue who has hidden (via the Hide action) cant be freely targeted with attacks. You can swing (at disadvantage) with a guess of course, but you dont know where he is.

If he hasnt used the Hide action (and is invisible, but not hidden) then you dont have to guess. The game presumes you have enough of a rough idea where he is in order to swing (at disadvantage).

From the PHB errata:


Also, the question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly.

Hiding doesn't automatically mean unseen. Hiding can be moving on the other side of a crumbling wall and shooting through the holes or being surrounded by an inky black cloud that conceals your movements but doesn't make you just wink out of existence.

[SharkForce]

How would the bugbear know how the darkness spell works? How does it know that the darkness is a completely safe place to run into swinging? Although if the NPCs do start doing this you can bet Hunger of Hadar is going to become a lot better for the Warlock.





From the PHB errata:



Hiding doesn't automatically mean unseen. Hiding can be moving on the other side of a crumbling wall and shooting through the holes or being surrounded by an inky black cloud that conceals your movements but doesn't make you just wink out of existence.

- because the guy just dropped it on itself. technically, it could still be a damage spell, but there's no indication that it is. the ground isn't scorched or frozen or shattered as the globe moves around. no indication that anyone inside is in pain. just darkness. heck, darkness as a spell isn't even all that rare, there are a few reasonably common races that have it as an innate spell. again, the bugbear doesn't need to know everything about the spell. all it needs to know is that it has one main tool for combat (a weapon), and the center of that globe probably has the source, and is probably somewhat important. it might think it's going to hit the rogue. it might think it's trying to smash a magic item. if it's the sherlock holmes of bugbears, it may even realize there is an invisible flying creature with an object on a string moving the darkness around, and actually be specifically trying to cut the string rather than just swinging at the approximate center of the darkness (though i would presume it would be statted quite differently from the average bugbear if it was the sherlock holmes of bugbears). ultimately, all it needs to do is hit. if it can destroy the object, presumably the spell is lost. if it can destroy the string, the coin will probably fall and scatter as a grenadelike object, and the darkness will be immobile for a bit. in any event, it's going to disrupt the rogue's plans somewhat, and it's a perfectly reasonable decision for sapient creatures to make.

- the globe is being moved away from the rogue by the imp. yes, you can hide inside a globe of darkness. but only if it's obscuring you. you don't need to be *completely* obscured. but if the globe moves away, no amount of hugging the wall or floor is going to count as hiding from the guy who can see you in plain sight. unless you still have a place to hide (say, if the globe is initially placed in an are with very tall grass or something), when you lose your source of obscurement you lose the ability to hide. now, i personally would allow you to move from hiding place to hiding place (representing that not everyone is looking in every direction all the time, even if they're looking around there will be gaps, and you should be able to exploit those to some extent), but if you're just sitting there and the globe moves? yeah, you aren't hiding any more.

[Malifice]

From the PHB errata:

'Also, the question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly.'

Hiding doesn't automatically mean unseen. Hiding can be moving on the other side of a crumbling wall and shooting through the holes or being surrounded by an inky black cloud that conceals your movements but doesn't make you just wink out of existence.

You're not reading that right.

That passage means 'you dont have to be totally unseen to take the Hide action, or to remain hidden.'

A creature can (for example) be peeking out from around a tree they are hidden behind, and remain hidden.

[lperkins2]

break concentration- hit the warlock with a stick. with all those feats and multiclass I'm doubting he's got that great of a con mod. so a bit of acid, poison or even caltrops could knock him out of concentration. enemies that deal damage to melee attackers are fun for this.


Darkness isn't a concentration spell, so that won't work. The imp's invisibility is concentration, but hitting the imp might be problematic, if it weren't the 10hp it has would be fairly easily beaten.

On that note, the rogue has good reflexes and evasion, the imp does not. Cone of cold, or other non fire aoes are likely to instagib the imp, even if it makes its save. Well, it has resistance to cold, so you'd have to roll 40+ on the damage to kill it if it makes its save. If you can get a good idea of its position, lightning isn't resisted, and 8d6 will come out above 20 95% of the time. Also, it's only a level 3 spell. There are probably even better AOE spells, shatter maybe, or thunderwave, but I've not played a blaster, so I'm not sure what would be best.

[Malifice]

Monster takes Search action. Rolls perception > than the Imps Stealth check result.

Next round, Monster throws bag over Imp covering the darkness spell.

[Citan]

Darkness isn't a concentration spell, so that won't work. The imp's invisibility is concentration, but hitting the imp might be problematic, if it weren't the 10hp it has would be fairly easily beaten.

That's some good weed you smoked there, unless you just mixed different editions. Darkness IS a concentration spell. :)

[SharkForce]

Darkness isn't a concentration spell, so that won't work. The imp's invisibility is concentration, but hitting the imp might be problematic, if it weren't the 10hp it has would be fairly easily beaten.

On that note, the rogue has good reflexes and evasion, the imp does not. Cone of cold, or other non fire aoes are likely to instagib the imp, even if it makes its save. Well, it has resistance to cold, so you'd have to roll 40+ on the damage to kill it if it makes its save. If you can get a good idea of its position, lightning isn't resisted, and 8d6 will come out above 20 95% of the time. Also, it's only a level 3 spell. There are probably even better AOE spells, shatter maybe, or thunderwave, but I've not played a blaster, so I'm not sure what would be best.

darkness does require concentration.

[lperkins2]

Oops, you're right. I'm not sure what spell I was thinking of, probably Mirror Image or something.

[Isaire]

So, I'm still really not clear on how the imp is staying out of reach. As someone who is just over 6 feet tall, I can swing a one-handed sword to hit something at a height of 11 feet fairly easily. So if the imp is flying out of reach, but has the coin suspended at a rogue-like height, that's a 5 foot (150 cm) long string at least, which means it's going to swinging round like mad when suspended from a flying creature. Moreover, any creature wildly swinging at the centre of darkness has a pretty easy target to accidentally hit - this giant piece of string.

So, stat the string as a rope, which has an AC and hp in the phb I think, and let it be attacked at disadvantage - the attacker doesn't know they're attacking a rope, but they might still cut it, and probably fairly easily too in this case, or knock the string out the imps hands even.

If the rogue complains, point out that getting enemies to waste actions like this is still very beneficial. And rope is cheap..

[wilhelmdubdub]

If a ranger gets the chance to cast hunter's mark before the target disappears into the darkness, they should be able to attack with disadvantage, not as RAW more as the flavor of the spell; or at least get a chance at a perception check. If I were DM'ing I would let the monsters/players use their movement to walk around using their, and if they come within 5ft. they detect the creature that is concealed by darkness unless they are using stealth, a gloomstalker or under the invisibility spell.