Long Death and Sun Soul Monks

[Astofel]

I'll start by saying that I'm a big fan of the 5e monk class. They get a whole host of cool and unique abilities that make them a blast to play. In a recent game, I decided to roll up a Tabaxi Long Death monk, and I thought I'd find some guides for it to see how I could get the most out of my abilities. To my surprise, the monk guides I could find didn't have anything to say on either of the SCAG subclasses. I've seen a few comments around the Playground that seem to indicate that the Long Death monk is pretty decent while the Sun Soul is underwhelming, but I'm curious to see why that opinion exists.

Thematically I like both subclasses, though the Sun Soul stands out to me a bit more in that regard. Despite that I've yet to play one myself, and the only one I've ever seen in play was in a game that never made it past 4th level. I get that it's supposed to be a more ranged monk, but I can see that early game if you're using Radiant Sun Bolt the damage is far less than if you use a versatile quarterstaff, and even in the late-game you don't get the free bonus action attack that melee fighting gives you. Searing Arc Strike gives you Burning Hands when others already have Fireball, which you don't get until 11th level in the form of Searing Sunburst, which costs the same amount of ki as the Open Hand monk's far superior Quivering Palm. Sun Shield as a whole is simply underwhelming, especially as a capstone. You get a slightly better Light cantrip, and you can use your reaction to do a whopping 10 damage to a creature that hits you.

The Long Death abilities I like a lot more. Touch of Death is super useful, and gives you a decently-sized buffer for damage. Hour of Reaping, while cool, seems strange to me. The text says that all creatures within 30 feet of you have to make the save, not creatures you choose, meaning that your allies are affected as well. So in order to not disadvantage your party with this, you have to be 30 feet away from them? I tried to use this ability in a game today and wound up getting grappled and restrained by 2 otyughs at the same time, which wasn't very fun, especially since one was 10 feet away from me so I couldn't reach it. Mastery of Death is fantastic; you're basically immortal as long as you have ki remaining. Touch of the Long Death seems like Quivering Palm but worse, although maybe Quivering Palm isn't the best standard by which to compare capstones. You can do a lot of damage at the cost of most of your ki pool, although you can still do a lot with the 7-10 ki you'll have left over.

That's my opinion/rating of the subclasses at least. I have a few ideas about how to fix the Sun Soul which I'll go into if anyone's interested. The only change I'd make for the Long Death monk is to make Hour of Reaping not affect allies, besides that it's a solid class. I'm curious to hear of the experiences anyone else has had with these subclasses, whether they've seen them in play or played them themselves, and what they'd change about them if anything.

[Citan]

Hi!

For Sun Soul, I'm AFB but from what I remember it can also get bonus action "ranged Flurry of Blows" for a Ki, so there is that.
Also, while it's obviously less damage at lower level, just hitting level 5 will help a bit.
Finally, it seems to me you don't consider two of the big advantages of it compared to quarterstaff.
1. Radiant damage: arguably at low level no monster have physical resistance, but it becomes much more common past level 7-8. And while Monk can evidently use magical weapons, depending on party composition there may be a strong competition over magical weapons, especially since Monk has a lesser need of it with its Unarmed Strikes being "naturally magical".

2. Range: until you can boost Monk's AC to 18 and past, Monk has to stay smart and quick on his feet, like Rogues, to keep direct threats under a certain threshold (like, at most one/two melee enemies). Otherwise, he has to use a Ki on either Dodge or Disengage.
With Sun Bolt, you have an effective reach of 30 feet for your Monk damage: at low levels it's invaluable in terms of resources and resilience. Of course you could just keep a stack of javelins for emergencies but it's not sustainable round per round because of object interaction economy.
At higher levels when you start having fun with Stunning Strike and single-target control, it can facilitate helping friends killing foes without moving too much (or at all).

The only thing I really regret in Sun Bolt personally is that the distance doesn't increase with level, nor can you use Stunning Strike (I would daresay that allowing a Stunning Strike to be attempted for 2 Ki on impact, or for normal Ki but only as the last archetype feature, would have been balanced).

As for Burning Hands and Fireball... I don't see where the problem is really. The important thing is not that other classes get same spells much earlier, or much better spells at the same level as the Monk.
The important thing is that one of the most resilient martial classes gets a sustainable, powerful AOE to expand its capabilities.
Hordes of weak opponents are among the worst for most martials except the most sturdy ones, because if you are inattentive they can surround you to block movement, or they could just all gang up ranged attacks on you, straining you down by sheer number.
Plus, comparing Eldricht Knight (the closest) and Monk, Eldricht Knight will have only two or three times per day of Burning Hands / Fireball, while Monk can use it several times per day, and better (naturally higher casting stat, much better mobility for optimal AOE).
In fact, as far as fireblasting goes, only pure casters can top Sun Soul Monk.
Which is an impressive statement imo.

And comparing Fireball and Quivering Palm is... Meaningless, to stay polite, as they are both far too different in obtained level, action economy and use-case.

Agreed on Sun Shield however, from what I remember, it indeed gave me the same kind of "meh" impression. I mean, it's certainly good in the long run (like how HAM is good for damage reduction in the long run) but doesn't feel like a capstone at all. ^^

As for Hour of Reaping... Yeah, it's hard to use depending on your party, I'd bet the "just use your action" cost was partially decided because on that (I'd expect to have to blow a Ki on bonus action Dash most of the time, at least before at least level 10, to be able to close in enough to affect only enemies while still having enough speed to double back to safety).

And Touch of the Long Death, I agree with you that it's less interesting than Quivering Palm (high Ki, necrotic damage) but from what I recall it has the big advantage of applying the damage immediately (whereas Quivering Palm you have to wait next turn to trigger the effect). So it's a different use...
For me though, the real blockbusters are that mass-Fear of lvl 6 and that "I will never die" feature of 11th level. ;)

[Specter]

The thing to remember about Sun Shield is that it's permanent - it costs no resource and can be used forever. It's like being able to cast Hellish Rebuke at will, except with a better damage type. So yeah, it's pretty good.

[RickAllison]

For Sun Soul, I have a couple points. Yes, the radiant sun bolts aren't as powerful as melee and have serious range restrictions. Ultimately, this is because that ability is an alternative to your basic melee capabilities, not a replacement. You can lay the wood to those schmucks that aren't worthy of your ki just as well as other monks, but you don't need Mobile to keep up the four-attack volley when the enemy is too dangerous to stay near. If you can find a consistent bonus action ability to use, then you won't even miss the third attack. Some great options for this are Rogue 2 for Cunning Action, the goblin race for Disengage and Hide, orc race for the Aggressive pseudo-Dash (Dash towards the opponent to cover distance, then retreat), or a Bag of Tricks. The Burning Hands ability is less than wonderful, but don't forget that cones are great for jumpy Sun monks to leap above the heads of their allies and put down a couple lines of fire that hurts enemies without harming your allies. Searing Sunburst doesn't seem like a great ability when you think about it in terms of single-target damage and actually paying ki, but the comparison to Quivering Palm is better than you would think. QP deals massive damage or is a KO as an action on the next round so the one target is free to terrorize until your turn comes up again. Searing Sunburst is not only at-will AoE (an incredibly rare category), but it deals its damage to a bunch of small enemies with an unfavorable saving throw. Remember that the small fry that AoE is best for tend to have higher Dexterity while Spirit Bomb is a Con save and its status as an AoE becomes a little better. You aren't going to clear out higher-CR creatures like the full casters, but you can clear out the small fry so the wizard can spend the turn crippling the boss. Sun Shield is an underwhelming capstone, but it is basically an extra 10 unblockable damage.

For Long Death, I am biased. This is my favorite Monk path. Hour of Reaping doesn't come out much, but the ability to scatter the small fry while the banshees or other nasties are focus-fired is amazing. Touch of the Long Death seems like it gets the shaft, but that is because it is so much more versatile than Quivering Palm. QP requires an attack to set the ability up, which is perfectly fine for combat. Open Hand Monks are warriors, and QP is unmatched in terms of taking down an opponent by other Monks. But it means that using it is blatantly offensive, and it has a delayed effect. To kill a person, you have to openly announce your assault and give the target six seconds to call for guards, shout about you, and otherwise create Long-term problems. Even sleepers will be woken up if the initial attack doesn't kill them to alert the guard. Meanwhile, the MLD can kill with something as simple as brushing against someone in a ballroom dance, or kill them in their sleep. 2d10/ki point seems lackluster on the battlefield, but the ability to kill without triggering combat is incredible.

[jaappleton]

The thing to remember about Sun Shield is that it's permanent - it costs no resource and can be used forever. It's like being able to cast Hellish Rebuke at will, except with a better damage type. So yeah, it's pretty good.

However, one thing which is often forgotten, is that the lv11 feature deals zero damage on a successful save. If it did half damage, it becomes a much better archetype. But dealing no damage on a successful save? That can be a really sucky feeling for the player.

[Astofel]

The thing to remember about Sun Shield is that it's permanent - it costs no resource and can be used forever. It's like being able to cast Hellish Rebuke at will, except with a better damage type. So yeah, it's pretty good.

My real issue with Sun Shield is that it uses your reaction, which monks tend to like using. If you use Sun Shield, that means no Deflect Missiles, opportunity attacks, or Slow Fall. As a lower level feature it'd be fine, but I don't like it as a capstone. Or maybe I'm just biased since I really like using Deflect Missiles.

The other points that have been made about Sun Soul are all good ones. For someone who says they like support classes, I sure need to think more about how classes work in a party than just by themselves.

[Alejandro]

We have a Sun Soul monk in our party. With the Mobile feat, and I captured some Boots of Speed and gave them to him.

He's a high speed, mobile radiant machine gun, and our top skirmisher :)

[DracoKnight]

I DM'd for a Sun Soul monk that went from 1st level, all the way to 16th level. I'd say that most of the theorycraft that says they're subpar is complete hogwash. They're a strong archetype. Not on par with Open Hand, but still really good.

I'll have to pick through my DM notes to see if I can find exactly where they shine (no pun intended).

[jaappleton]

I DM'd for a Sun Soul monk that went from 1st level, all the way to 16th level. I'd say that most of the theorycraft that says they're subpar is complete hogwash. They're a strong archetype. Not on par with Open Hand, but still really good.

I'll have to pick through my DM notes to see if I can find exactly where they shine (no pun intended).

You filthy liar.

That pun was 100% intended and you know it!

[Mortis_Elrod]

You know whats really cool? Sun soul is the perfect archetype for the in your face shooter, using finger guns of pure light. Also not sure if anybody has seen this interaction before but i know ive seen a couple complaints of the range issue and how your RSBs don't scale. Consider a dip into fighter paladin or (more likely) ranger and you get Close-Quaters Shooter. Which works 100% with RSB.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I once had a player who had a Human Sun Soul Monk with Magic Initiate feat for control flames and something else. He just straight up played it as a Firebender. He had a blast, suffice to say.

Yes, jaappleton, that was also on purpose.

[DracoKnight]

You filthy liar.

That pun was 100% intended and you know it!

Dammit, you’ve got me. :smallbiggrin:

[8wGremlin]

Cheese - Druid 2/Sun soul Monk x, shoot lasers as Kiwi.
have the backing of 1/2 a nation rooting for you!

[Mortis_Elrod]

Cheese - Druid 2/Sun soul Monk x, shoot lasers as Kiwi.
have the backing of 1/2 a nation rooting for you!

you are doing it wrong. Let me show you. http://i.imgur.com/GK46T.jpg

[8wGremlin]

you are doing it wrong. Let me show you. http://i.imgur.com/GK46T.jpg

I think you missed a non-american-centric point of view, but that's ok, we're obscure
let me show you

https://www.cirrusinsight.com/assets/uploads/2015/10/LaserKiwi.jpg?page=wp-content/uploads/2015/10/LaserKiwi.jpg

[Astofel]

I think you missed a non-american-centric point of view, but that's ok, we're obscure
let me show you

https://www.cirrusinsight.com/assets/uploads/2015/10/LaserKiwi.jpg?page=wp-content/uploads/2015/10/LaserKiwi.jpg
Hey, I was just about to post that myself :smallbiggrin:

Seeing everyone's responses to this thread have made me really want to try the Sun Soul out for myself. The question is simply whether I want to multiclass druid go Lazar Kiwi, or be an aasimar and go full Super Saiyan. Or both. Hmm...

[Mortis_Elrod]

Hey, I was just about to post that myself :smallbiggrin:

Seeing everyone's responses to this thread have made me really want to try the Sun Soul out for myself. The question is simply whether I want to multiclass druid go Lazar Kiwi, or be an aasimar and go full Super Saiyan. Or both. Hmm...

super saiyan lazor kiwi is top notch. Sun Soul is one of my favorite subclasses on one of my favorite classes. Don't let a lame capstone (that most never get to) stop you from playing it, its super fun.

[Avigor]

I love the sheer silly fun of playing the Goku Monk (I've got one right now, it's a Kenku so yeah laser birdy!), albeit I'll definitely agree that the capstone is disappointing... I'm kinda tempted to try and get it house ruled to more resemble the Phoenix Sorcerer's ability when we reach that level...