Best "5th Wheel" Class

[lylsyly]

Given a "Standard Party" of Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. What do you think the BEST, 5th player would be? In general, no campaign specifics, ect.

Just a thought exercise.

[Zanos]

A second wizard.

Bard, for facing and support.

[PhantasyPen]

It really depends on what each of you is doing. In this situation, I might recommend a Duskblade from Player's Handbook 2 as a secondary caster/melee, if you're going core-only I'd say be a fighter or ranger who focuses on ranged/melee, whichever your Fighter isn't doing.

[AnimeTheCat]

I definitely second Bard. It seems like the perfect cherry on top of an archetypal group.

[CharonsHelper]

From a fit perspective rather than raw power (in which case the answer is always a 9-level caster) I'll second the Bard.

Bards are better in large groups as their buffs will affect more people, and so long as the rogue isn't already a face (if they know a bard is along they shouldn't be) then the Bard won't step on anyone's toes.

*Dang ninjas - I guess I'll third the bard.

[Bad Wolf]

Bard, definitely. Helps everyone else fight more good.

[Alent]

Remember those "We don't make the things you use, we make the things you use better" commercials?

That pretty much describes the relationship Bard has with every other character concept in the game.

[Kurald Galain]

Given a "Standard Party" of Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. What do you think the BEST, 5th player would be? In general, no campaign specifics, ect.

None.

"Fifth wheel" is not a party role. Fifth wheel is a tag given to classes that cannot perform any party role reliably. They don't do any harm if you have all the roles covered already, but in that case anything with an actual role would be better.

(Note that "party face" IS a party role, albeit one that can conceivably be covered by a rogue or cleric. Note also that the four traditional classes are not necessarily the best way to cover all the roles)

[gkathellar]

With respect to the question you're trying to ask, ignoring tier: druid, bard and factotum are logical choices (Fochlucan Lyrist deserves honorable mention for being a druidic bard). Psychic Warrior and Duskblade are good fits if you want a secondary tank with some non-redundant toys.

However:


None.

"Fifth wheel" is not a party role. Fifth wheel is a tag given to classes that cannot perform any party role reliably. They don't do any harm if you have all the roles covered already, but in that case anything with an actual role would be better.

(Note that "party face" IS a party role, albeit one that can conceivably be covered by a rogue or cleric. Note also that the four traditional classes are not necessarily the best way to cover all the roles)

QFT.

[CharonsHelper]

None.

"Fifth wheel" is not a party role. Fifth wheel is a tag given to classes that cannot perform any party role reliably. They don't do any harm if you have all the roles covered already, but in that case anything with an actual role would be better.

I disagree. Many classes don't solidly fill one role but do a decent job of 2+. So if you need 2+ roles filled and/or have the classic roles filled pretty solidly, you're better off with a 5th wheel class.

Ex: A wizard can take many of the same buffing spells that a bard gets. However, if the bard is along, the wizard can focus upon control spells as the bard take the buffing load. The bard is also a decent combatant and with Tumble makes a great flanking buddy for the rogue since they aren't losing much by giving up their iterative. The bard also gets good skills which allows the rogue to not have to spend skills on face skills. etc.

Now - in 3.x, many of the "fifth wheel" classes are bad, but that doesn't mean that the concept is without merit. After all - the fighter is bad, but that doesn't keep 'front-liner' from being a viable role. Pathfinder "fifth wheel" classes are often very solid choices. (Ex: Magus/Umonk/Mesmerist/Inquisitor etc.)

[daremetoidareyo]

Bard is the best. But dragonfire adept is a solid choice. Invocations, unlimited entangling breaths that you never need to roll to hit with, it's got everything.

[DEMON]

I'm eighting (unless I miscalculated all the secondings) the Bard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Assuming a melee Fighter and an archer Rogue, as is the common stereotype...? And looking for something new...

How 'bout an Incarnate? They're not likely to be the best at anything, but they can switch what role they cover from day-to-day and make sure you've got skill coverage for unusual challenges. Totemists can do this to a lesser extent, though any Totemist build should probably dip Incarnate and vice-versa so the distinction is largely moot. Binders too.

A Psion makes a great primary offensive caster (freeing the Wizard to concentrate on control and the Cleric on buffs), and can access some fairly unique effects.

A Crusader focused on healing and White Raven stuff would go nice, albeit at the cost of showing up the Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Easily Artificer and it's not particularly close. But since it's ECS and you stated no setting specific material, I suppose a Druid would complement the spells from the Wizard and the Cleric with its own unique dimension while giving melee some support - really everything you need. Archivist, a second Cleric (you can never have enough Clerics; they can do anything), anything that gives you more spell slots and daily versatility is great, particularly if they double as bodies in combat (like all divine casters). Of course, if we're using psionics, Psion would add a whole different angle which could be really useful to have; even more information gathering is useful and you get different angles.

[Nifft]

Seconding Druid, Psion, Artificer -- all solid high-tier picks.

Sorcerer can be fun, especially if the Wizard has a specialization and you can fill in some gaps.


Bard can be is great, consider it 7th'd or whatever. Again, this is even better if your Wizard has some gaps you can fill in -- for example, if the party's Wizard banned Illusion or Enchantment, then a Bard can really shine.

If the Wizard banned Illusion or Enchantment, then a Beguiler can also be a great addition.

If the Wizard banned Necromancy, then a Dread Necormancer might be fun -- but you need to be upfront about your penchant for creating undead abominations, and the rest of the players need to be okay with that concept.


If the players are new and un-optimized -- which is quite likely given that one of them apparently picked Fighter -- then a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept can be great, or an Incarnum class (Incarnate or Totemist).


Beyond that, you might be looking to fit into a specialist party. Is the party focused on...

- Stealth + Outdoors? try a Scout or Mystic Ranger.

- Slaying evil Wizards? try a Spellthief or Barbarian / Fist of the Forest / Runescarred Berserker or a Psychic Warrior with Mage Slayer and a spiked chain.

- Social manipulation and intrigue between Dragonmarked houses in Eberron? try a Changeling Rogue 5 / Chameleon 10 / Cabinet Trickster 5.

- etc.

[Ashtagon]

Binder could be a fun choice because it can change role as easily as it changes the boundaries entity. However bard is still better.

[RedMage125]

I'm also in the "Bard" camp, but want to add a caveat.

Give said Bard a single level of Marshall and take the "Motivate Dexterity" Minor Aura. Now everyone adds the bard's CHA modifier to all DEX skills and initiative checks.

[Mordaedil]

I tend to lean between a bard, a rogue and a warlock personally.

The bard can fill a lot of secondary roles, but a second rogue means they can both fill two different nichés and both contribute in unique ways, while the warlock can contribute in the blasting department and provide a steady damage of which the rogue needs constant set-ups to pull off.

Not to mention invocations can also let you do some fun things.

[gkathellar]

Going to second the mentions of Binder, Incarnate, and Totemist (as well as artificer, but bear in mind that it's a lot of paperwork). Totemist is more combat-oriented but is in general a really well-designed class.

[Zaq]

Heartily agree with Bard and Artificer.

[Calthropstu]

Bard is a good one.
Other good ones include:
Summoner
Some form of ranged (alchemist, ranger archer, kinetecist etc.)
Diviner specialist
A secondary spell caster
Psychic warrior


Of those, the bard will be the most appreciated by the party, but many hate playing them. The summoner will be the most effective but least appreciated.