Sorc w/ warlock dip spellcasting help

[that_one_kobold]

So i've created a kobold sorcerer, and rolled good enough for him not to be terrible (16 cha), and have decided that a warlock dip could be useful. I'll probably pick up eldrich blast with agonizing blast and the 10 ft push, as well as going the fiend patron. Anyways, i have 2 main questions to ask. 1. How does this effect my sorc spell slots? 2. When should i dip and for how long? Current plan: 4-5 levels of sorc then 2-3 levels of warlock, then continuing sorc for the rest of the game.

Edit: for more added fun, i get pack tactics as a kobold. Couple that with with two big dumb (im talking 6 int dumb) fighters, i get advantage on my eldritch blasts!

[UrielAwakened]

Take your first level in Sorc for Con proficiency.

Take two levels in Warlock immediately. The damage from agonizing blast is too good to pass up.

Get third level spell slots as a Sorc.

Then, if you want, take one more level of Warlock for a Pact and to bump up your Warlock spell slots from 1st to 2nd level. This gives you the same short-rest Sorcery Points recovery as a 20th level Sorcerer.

[sithlordnergal]

So i've created a kobold sorcerer, and rolled good enough for him not to be terrible (16 cha), and have decided that a warlock dip could be useful. I'll probably pick up eldrich blast with agonizing blast and the 10 ft push, as well as going the fiend patron. Anyways, i have 2 main questions to ask. 1. How does this effect my sorc spell slots? 2. When should i dip and for how long? Current plan: 4-5 levels of sorc then 2-3 levels of warlock, then continuing sorc for the rest of the game.

1) You basically lose full caster slots for every Warlock level you take. So say you take three levels of Warlock and 17 levels of Sorcerer, you'll have the slots of a 17th level Sorcerer. Unlike with half casters or the Eldritch Knight, you do not add in Warlock levels when determining your total spell slots. And vice versa, Sorcerer levels will not help improve your Warlock spell slots.


2) I would suggest your final build to be Sorcerer: 18 / Warlock 2. Take Sorcerer as your first level, then two levels of Warlock, and then go back to Sorcerer and stay there. You may not gain as many short rest recovery points as Uriel's suggestion, but you would gain:

another 5th level spell slot
final Sorcerer Origin trait
18 Sorcery points

The spell slot is highly useful, especially since one of my favorite spells, Animate Object, is 5th level. Your Sorcerer Origin trait could be amazing depending on your origin, and it is always good to have more Sorcery points, even if it is just one.

[UrielAwakened]

That one extra spell slot is not worth losing 2 sorcery points per short rest.

1 extra maximum is worse than 1 extra for your first short rest, and then 2 more for each short rest after that.

The final Sorcery origins aren't even that great and it's kind of ridiculous to plan a character around level 20 features.

The value you get from those 2 extra sorcery points for the previous 16 levels of your build far outstrip the 18th feature at 20th level.

In general, any time you're building a character, it's better to focus on what traits and features benefit you for the longest, not your capstones.

[Zene]

I’d recommend sorc 1, lock 2.

Then, a question: Will your campaign go all the way to 20? If so, take straight sorc all the say to sorc 17 (character level 19). Then decide if you want your last level in sorc or lock.

The reason I say straight sorc, is that high-level sorc abilities (including the wish spell) are so good that you won’t want to delay them by another level. Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast are so good that they’re worth delaying sorc progression for two levels, but everything else isn't.

If you’re not playing to 20, usually it’s still better to go sorc 1, then warlock 2, then sorc X. But it’s not so much of a problem if you want to get that 3rd lock level at any point; there are fun things in there.

[sithlordnergal]

So with the Sorcery Point recovery, I assume you're recovering the 2 Sorcery Points per Short Rest via burning the Warlock Spell Slots before taking a short rest? Personally I'd take the extra maximum instead of that. For one thing, you can't guarantee that you'll get a Short Rest. Case in point, so far none of the groups I play in take short rests...ever. I think we just had our first short rest in Tomb of Annihilation, and that was because it took the Paladin and Fighter an hour to find flowers to go meet a Guardian Naga while the rest of the party had already gotten through the thorns. Of course, I play in AL, and most of the modules don't have short or long rests in them...so other groups may get more short rests then mine do. And while that has made me great at managing my resources, it has also made me pretty jaded against things that recharge on a short rest.

Second, even if you can guarantee the short rest, I find it's more useful to have more resources on hand at any one time rather then spread out through Short Rests. It's why I went Paladin/Sorcerer instead of Paladin/Warlock. You may be able to get that stuff back on a Short Rest, but good luck getting that Short Rest when you run out of the 2 slots during a big, difficult fight where you want/need to burn everything. That +1 maximum means 6 Heightened Spells instead of 5 in a fight, or 9 Quickened Spells instead of 8, or one more Twinned Spell depending on the spell levels you cast it with.

I've always planned around level 20, because my characters do have a large chance of reaching level 20. But again, that's likely due to AL rules allowing you to bring in any character you want, provided it's the proper tier. And I play carefully enough that I really don't die very often. The DM has a hard enough time knocking me down to 0 hp, let alone getting me killed outright.

And I'd say the final Sorcery Origins are pretty well worth it. Now, I don't have access to the Storm Sorcerer, but I rather like the Draconic and Wild Magic 18th options. And a third 5th level spell slot holds far higher value to me then a pair of second level Warlock slots.

[Easy_Lee]

A sorcerer 1 / warlock 2 into warlock 3 / sorcerer 2 is, arguably, better than a pure Sorcerer. You cast a lot more spells, you get the invocations, you get the Pact bonus, and you can turn warlock slots into up to 4 sorcery points per short rest. Considering a level 5 sorcerer only gets 5 sorcery points per day, that's huge. Assuming two short rests pet day, that's 15 sorcery points compared to 5. There's no comparison.

I would start there.

[8wGremlin]

Easy_lee's analysis is spot on.

Sorc 1/ warlock 2-3/ Sorc

If UA/XGE is available go Hexblade nets you medium armour, shields, 1h melee weapons using CHA
Also look at the UA starter spell Healing Elixir for heals, Booming blade, and EB for damage.
What is not to like!

[UrielAwakened]

A sorcerer 1 / warlock 2 into warlock 3 / sorcerer 2 is, arguably, better than a pure Sorcerer. You cast a lot more spells, you get the invocations, you get the Pact bonus, and you can turn warlock slots into up to 4 sorcery points per short rest. Considering a level 5 sorcerer only gets 5 sorcery points per day, that's huge. Assuming two short rests pet day, that's 15 sorcery points compared to 5. There's no comparison.

I would start there.


Yeah I really feel like anyone advocating Sorc 18 over Warlock 3 has never actually played the build.

The extra Sorcery points are invaluable.

[sithlordnergal]

I will admit I never played that particular build. I generally avoid using Warlocks for anything because I have never seen their short rest recharge as useful since the groups I play in never take short rests.

[Easy_Lee]

I will admit I never played that particular build. I generally avoid using Warlocks for anything because I have never seen their short rest recharge as useful since the groups I play in never take short rests.

Yep, that's a somewhat common issue. In some groups, warlocks and monks are great due to abundant short rests. In others, this can happen. It's a conundrum. I hope WotC doesn't repeat this next edition.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeah, it is an issue. I'm not sure how they could easily fix it though, since it is up to the individual DM to decide how many Short or Long Rests you get. Although, it would help if they wrote more adventures that call for Short Rests for AL play

[SharkForce]

i think warlock 2 and warlock 3 are both perfectly valid builds. there's something beneficial either way, it's just a question of whether you want higher level sorcerer spells and spell slots (which are very strong) or more low level slots and/or sorcerer points (which are also quite good), though to be clear continuing to gain sorcerer levels gives you more and better spell slots that can probably be turned into a very competitive amount of sorcerer points if you so desired right up until the later levels; consider that a level 5 spell slot is 5 sorcerer points. warlock 3 is giving you 2 extra points per short rest, so if you burn the two from your long rest and 4 more from 2 short rests, you only had a net gain of 1 SP. that said, warlocks do get some nice options at level 3 other than just extra level 2 slots, so it is something to consider.

as far as level 18 sorcerer abilities... storm has a good one. i'm not sure i'd consider draconic to be that good, and i'm quite sure that i wouldn't consider wild to be very good at all. we'll see what the future holds for other sorcerer subclasses.

but seriously, the SP difference isn't as big as is being claimed. you're not comparing 0 warlock levels to 3, you're comparing 2 to 3, which means it's the difference between 4 per rest and 2 per rest.

assuming 2 short rests, that's 6 SP per day, not 12 (and i'm not sure how others are coming up with 10).

but, for example, sorcerer 4 gains an extra 2 from a spell slot + 1 from sorcerer level , making the difference 3 per day. sorcerer 5 gains 7 total, making it more total plus you get access to level 3 spells. sorcerer 6 gains you 4, making the difference only 2 points. sorcerer 7 and 8 each give 5 sorcerer points. level 9 gives you 10, level 10 gives you 6, level 11 gives you 7, and finally at this point it slows down (level 12 and 13 combined give you 9 when you could have had 12, 14 and 15 combine for 10 instead of 12, and so on, but in each case the difference is very visible at the even level then becomes minimal on the odd level).

main point being, though: it isn't nearly as big of a difference as is being suggested. warlock 3 still has value over warlock 2, but it doesn't necessarily have more value than progressing sorcerer spell slots and sorcerer spells known and gaining access to higher level spells. but it also doesn't necessarily have less value either. either way has good and bad points.

and of course, the amount of short resting your party does will heavily influence everything.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, it is an issue. I'm not sure how they could easily fix it though, since it is up to the individual DM to decide how many Short or Long Rests you get. Although, it would help if they wrote more adventures that call for Short Rests for AL play

Like confusion around and competition for bonus actions, I believe there's little to do about it this edition. The short rest versus long rest dilemma is the result of design. As long as these classes recover in this manner, but those classes recover in that manner, we'll have this issue.

Kryx has some math on exactly how many short rests players should have per day. IIRC, it worked out to approximately 2.5. But that assumes DMs are able to perfectly control when players rest (they aren't) and experienced and prepared enough to plan these into the adventure (many aren't).

Warlock and Monk balance as compared to other classes comes down to DM style and group behavior.

[8wGremlin]

So would removing short rests and just having long tests result in warlocks and monks having spells/ki * 2.5 per long rest.

Interesting

[Easy_Lee]

So would removing short rests and just having long tests result in warlocks and monks having spells/ki * 2.5 per long rest.

Interesting

Potentially, but it's tricky. It's probably fine for monks, but with that system, a level 5 warlock has 5 or 6 level 3 spell slots instead of a mix of level 1, 2, and 3 slots. That's a lot of fireballs. If going for that, it might be best to just convert warlocks to normal full casters spell slot progression.

[8wGremlin]

Potentially, but it's tricky. It's probably fine for monks, but with that system, a level 5 warlock has 5 or 6 level 3 spell slots instead of a mix of level 1, 2, and 3 slots. That's a lot of fireballs. If going for that, it might be best to just convert warlocks to normal full casters spell slot progression.

Yeah. I can see that might be an issue but you’d also have to up their spells known

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah. I can see that might be an issue but you’d also have to up their spells known

Another option, one Kryx uses, is to give them spell points instead of slots. Check his houserules for that if you're interested. It gives the warlock more flexibility, and you could up the number if going for long rest casting.

[8wGremlin]

Another option, one Kryx uses, is to give them spell points instead of slots. Check his houserules for that if you're interested. It gives the warlock more flexibility, and you could up the number if going for long rest casting.

Will look at that - thanks

Would it still be 2.5 * spell points for a long rest casting, as that would be very very potent.
instead of 5 max level spells a day, they would have more versatility and raw power than sorcerers.

[Easy_Lee]

Will look at that - thanks

Would it still be 2.5 * spell points for a long rest casting, as that would be very very potent.
instead of 5 max level spells a day, they would have more versatility and raw power than sorcerers.

Good insight. Kryx's solution was to combine warlocks with sorcerers and turn Metamagic into feats.

I don't like that solution, as I dislike the sorcerer losing its niche to another class. Sorcerers have been around a long time, and I'm fond of them.

[Spiritchaser]

I could see going sorc 18 if you were shadow... assuming they kept that power in XGtE... and assuming you knew you were going to play at that level.

[8wGremlin]

Good insight. Kryx's solution was to combine warlocks with sorcerers and turn Metamagic into feats.

I don't like that solution, as I dislike the sorcerer losing its niche to another class. Sorcerers have been around a long time, and I'm fond of them.

Yeah I like them too, I've played them on and off from their inception, I even created the highest DPR sorcerer build for 4e, and I didn't really like 4e. But I did like the sorcerer.

and yes Metamagic is the Sorcerer's one and only schtick, I wish we had more, and more flavours of sorcerer, access to other spell lists would be nice too.

[SharkForce]

Good insight. Kryx's solution was to combine warlocks with sorcerers and turn Metamagic into feats.

I don't like that solution, as I dislike the sorcerer losing its niche to another class. Sorcerers have been around a long time, and I'm fond of them.

sorcerers have been around for a while, and metamagic has been around for a longer while, but metamagic has not been sorcerer's niche for very long.

that said, i prefer differentiating the sorcerer and warlock differently myself. but i do also prefer removing metamagic from the sorcerer and giving them something different to be their niche; metamagic makes a terrible niche for a few reasons:

1) other classes really should have some access to it without a 3-level sorcerer dip, but if that's the only thing that sorcerers have doing this removes the only thing sorcerers have.
2) sorcerers really should have other things that define them, but so long as they have metamagic, there is no room for much else. they have subclasses, but let's face it; a draconic sorcerer with twin/quicken spell plays more similarly to a wild magic sorcerer with twin/quicken than to a draconic sorcerer with subtle/careful.
3) solving the most frequently-cited causes of sorcerers being unsatisfying is nearly impossible so long as metamagic takes up such a huge amount of the sorcerer's power budget.
4) some metamagic has the potential to be quite powerful... just not for sorcerers. extend spell can be quite interesting for clerics or even druids and to some extent bards, but tends to be a poor choice for sorcerers. distant spell can work well with some spellcasters, but tends to work comparatively poorly for sorcerers as well. and if the pool of metamagic options increases (and hopefully it will), most likely so will the number of options that are always going to be not so impressive for sorcerers but which cannot be made more powerful because they could be impressive for someone else.
5) any class can essentially dip 3 levels of sorcerer to gain an extremely large portion of the sorcerer's niche. not every class should do this from an optimization perspective, but it is an option available to them.

[Easy_Lee]

sorcerers have been around for a while, and metamagic has been around for a longer while, but metamagic has not been sorcerer's niche for very long.

that said, i prefer differentiating the sorcerer and warlock differently myself. but i do also prefer removing metamagic from the sorcerer and giving them something different to be their niche; metamagic makes a terrible niche for a few reasons:

1) other classes really should have some access to it without a 3-level sorcerer dip, but if that's the only thing that sorcerers have doing this removes the only thing sorcerers have.
2) sorcerers really should have other things that define them, but so long as they have metamagic, there is no room for much else. they have subclasses, but let's face it; a draconic sorcerer with twin/quicken spell plays more similarly to a wild magic sorcerer with twin/quicken than to a draconic sorcerer with subtle/careful.
3) solving the most frequently-cited causes of sorcerers being unsatisfying is nearly impossible so long as metamagic takes up such a huge amount of the sorcerer's power budget.
4) some metamagic has the potential to be quite powerful... just not for sorcerers. extend spell can be quite interesting for clerics or even druids and to some extent bards, but tends to be a poor choice for sorcerers. distant spell can work well with some spellcasters, but tends to work comparatively poorly for sorcerers as well. and if the pool of metamagic options increases (and hopefully it will), most likely so will the number of options that are always going to be not so impressive for sorcerers but which cannot be made more powerful because they could be impressive for someone else.
5) any class can essentially dip 3 levels of sorcerer to gain an extremely large portion of the sorcerer's niche. not every class should do this from an optimization perspective, but it is an option available to them.

Metamagic could work as a niche in 5e, but the trouble is that WotC went out of their way to "balance" (nerf) most of it. While they were at it, they tore every suspect spell (which was most of them) out of the sorcerer spell list. As if all of that wasn't enough, they gave sorcerers the worst spell recovery mechanic, spells known, and spell learning mechanic out of any full caster. Then they took away ritual casting, because why not.

Metamagic isn't what's wrong with sorcerers. Their problem was being most prominently on the receiving end of WotC's caster nerfs. Applying metamagic to spells feels like a 3.5e uber-caster trick, far more so than wildshape or channel divinity. And I think WotC, because of how they felt about it, went overboard with sorcerers as a result.

And yet you can still play a good sorcerer if you really know what you're doing. So I dunno, maybe they intended it to be the skill-gap class. I doubt it, but it's possible.

[SharkForce]

Metamagic could work as a niche in 5e, but the trouble is that WotC went out of their way to "balance" (nerf) most of it. While they were at it, they tore every suspect spell (which was most of them) out of the sorcerer spell list. As if all of that wasn't enough, they gave sorcerers the worst spell recovery mechanic, spells known, and spell learning mechanic out of any full caster. Then they took away ritual casting, because why not.

Metamagic isn't what's wrong with sorcerers. Their problem was being most prominently on the receiving end of WotC's caster nerfs. Applying metamagic to spells feels like a 3.5e uber-caster trick, far more so than wildshape or channel divinity. And I think WotC, because of how they felt about it, went overboard with sorcerers as a result.

And yet you can still play a good sorcerer if you really know what you're doing. So I dunno, maybe they intended it to be the skill-gap class. I doubt it, but it's possible.

see, that's the thing:

with all those nerfs, sorcerers can still work, if you take advantage of what they have.

so imagine without those nerfs. what do you think it would be like?

metamagic is so big that those nerfs are actually somewhat necessary to keep it in line, and it just doesn't feel good with all of those drawbacks. that's one part of what makes it not a good niche. then combine it with all those other things i listed... metamagic should not be the niche of one class, which means it can't take up so much of the class that there's no room for anything else. but now we're stuck with an unsatisfying sorcerer and everyone else being blocked out of something that they probably should have access to just because it was forced into being the only thing sorcerers do well, and now the only class that can have it feels incomplete and unsatisfying. i have a hard time looking at that situation and thinking it indicates good design.

[djreynolds]

Yeah, it is an issue. I'm not sure how they could easily fix it though, since it is up to the individual DM to decide how many Short or Long Rests you get. Although, it would help if they wrote more adventures that call for Short Rests for AL play

After every fight, say. "Lets quickly loot the bodies, find some cover, and sit down and go through all these little trinkets and baubles while we short rest."

Ranger says, " I do not have to short rest, lets press on"

Fighter says, "Good, then you are on first and last watch, sit down and shut it"

The monk and warlock in unison, "Yeah and you can take our watches also"

Players should tell the DM you are short resting, he/she can just roll on the random encounter table. I prefer, as a player, to short rest after every fight, if there is nothing pressing

Now as a DM, it can be annoying that players do not look to rest. At first, tell them, "hey while you sit here looting corpses, some of you could short rest"

A short rest can be done whenever, it could turn out badly or you don't finish. Think realistically.

While the rogue is looting bodies, and the wizard and paladin are arguing over who knows what. The fighter can say, I need a short rest to sharpen by swords, bind this wound on my leg, sow up my backpack

DMs can only offer short rests for so long, players need to begin to advocate for themselves

[JellyPooga]

Everyone's saying go Sorc 1 into War 2, but I disagree. Sorcerer 3 to start, followed by Warlock 2 will stand you in better stead IMO:
First, you get 2nd level spells quicker. This is important.
Second, you get Sorcery points and Metamagic online ASAP.
Third, Eldritch Blast is not significantly better than a crossbow until character level 5 anyway.

The flipside of this (i.e. going Sor 1/War 2) is being stuck with level 1 spells (albeit more of them) until level 5 (this is bad). You do get Invocations quicker, but unless your build is being predicated on them (e.g. you really want Silent Image at will), it's just not worth it. 1st level Pact Magic slots can be turned into 2nd level Spell Slots if you're playing with Sorcery Points, but that can't happen until Sorcerer 3.

[Easy_Lee]

see, that's the thing:

with all those nerfs, sorcerers can still work, if you take advantage of what they have.

so imagine without those nerfs. what do you think it would be like?

metamagic is so big that those nerfs are actually somewhat necessary to keep it in line, and it just doesn't feel good with all of those drawbacks. that's one part of what makes it not a good niche. then combine it with all those other things i listed... metamagic should not be the niche of one class, which means it can't take up so much of the class that there's no room for anything else. but now we're stuck with an unsatisfying sorcerer and everyone else being blocked out of something that they probably should have access to just because it was forced into being the only thing sorcerers do well, and now the only class that can have it feels incomplete and unsatisfying. i have a hard time looking at that situation and thinking it indicates good design.

I understand where you're coming from, and this is a little off-topic so I don't want to derail too much. But what I will say is this: you could double Metamagic points, expand the sorcerer spell list, and give them ritual casting, and they still wouldn't feel overpowered compared to druids, wizards, clerics, or bards. As is, yes, they're playable. But you have to jump through some hoops.

I agree with you that it isn't good design. I just don't know the best remedy.

[SharkForce]

I understand where you're coming from, and this is a little off-topic so I don't want to derail too much. But what I will say is this: you could double Metamagic points, expand the sorcerer spell list, and give them ritual casting, and they still wouldn't feel overpowered compared to druids, wizards, clerics, or bards. As is, yes, they're playable. But you have to jump through some hoops.

I agree with you that it isn't good design. I just don't know the best remedy.

considering 3 of the 5 problems with metamagic i pointed out cannot be solved purely by adding things to the sorcerer (and i'm also not convinced that adding things won't cause other problems), i'm inclined to say that the best remedy involves starting over with a different premise. i'm not sold on metamagic as feats (i think it adds too much for a feat - it becomes like the various combat style feats, where you might choose from 4 or 5 of them, but if you don't choose at least one of them, you're probably going to be noticeably less effective than someone who did). i actually think that metamagic as the first prestige class for 5e would've worked quite well, though i've not heard anyone else ever say they like that idea, so i'm probably wrong (even if it works, if nobody will use it then it's no better than a bad solution).

[Zene]

Everyone's saying go Sorc 1 into War 2, but I disagree. Sorcerer 3 to start, followed by Warlock 2 will stand you in better stead IMO:
First, you get 2nd level spells quicker. This is important.
Second, you get Sorcery points and Metamagic online ASAP.
Third, Eldritch Blast is not significantly better than a crossbow until character level 5 anyway.

The flipside of this (i.e. going Sor 1/War 2) is being stuck with level 1 spells (albeit more of them) until level 5 (this is bad). You do get Invocations quicker, but unless your build is being predicated on them (e.g. you really want Silent Image at will), it's just not worth it. 1st level Pact Magic slots can be turned into 2nd level Spell Slots if you're playing with Sorcery Points, but that can't happen until Sorcerer 3.

I suppose it depends on what appeals to you about a sorclock.

If you want to push enemies around the battlefield with repelling blast, then sorc 1 lock 2 gets you there quicker.

If you’re really psyched about metamagic and second-level slots, sure, go sorc 3 first.

Personally I don’t see the appeal of the latter route, unless you have a very rp-heavy campaign (in which case subtle spell is pure gold, even with only low-level spells) or one with few short rests. In combat-heavy campaigns, especially on a grid, repelling blast is super fun for me. Especially when combo’d with lots of spell slots (short rest and long) for shield or armor of agathys or hex or disguise self or what have you.

[JellyPooga]

I suppose it depends on what appeals to you about a sorclock.

If you want to push enemies around the battlefield with repelling blast, then sorc 1 lock 2 gets you there quicker.

If you’re really psyched about metamagic and second-level slots, sure, go sorc 3 first.

Personally I don’t see the appeal of the latter route, unless you have a very rp-heavy campaign (in which case subtle spell is pure gold, even with only low-level spells) or one with few short rests. In combat-heavy campaigns, especially on a grid, repelling blast is super fun for me. Especially when combo’d with lots of spell slots (short rest and long) for shield or armor of agathys or hex or disguise self or what have you.

It does depend on your personal style, I agree. In general terms of what might be considered "power", taking Sor 3 before multiclassing gives more bang for your buck; second level spells really are that much better than first level spells. For you, Repelling Blast is a core concept of the character and that's fine, but it's also a relatively niche ability that, while usable all-day every-day, doesn't really compare to being able to being able to cast, say, Hold Person or Suggestion.

[Citan]

So i've created a kobold sorcerer, and rolled good enough for him not to be terrible (16 cha), and have decided that a warlock dip could be useful. I'll probably pick up eldrich blast with agonizing blast and the 10 ft push, as well as going the fiend patron. Anyways, i have 2 main questions to ask. 1. How does this effect my sorc spell slots? 2. When should i dip and for how long? Current plan: 4-5 levels of sorc then 2-3 levels of warlock, then continuing sorc for the rest of the game.

Edit: for more added fun, i get pack tactics as a kobold. Couple that with with two big dumb (im talking 6 int dumb) fighters, i get advantage on my eldritch blasts!
Hi!

If your main reason for dipping Warlock is "Agonizing Repelling Blast", I'd strongly advise you to wait at strict minimum Sorcerer 5 before dipping, and honestly you could as easily wait until Sorcerer 9-10.

The only reasons I could see for dipping/multiclassing earlier would be...
1/ You plan on using the EB+Hex combo early on to be a damage dealer: then after Sorcerer 6 because archetype features are good, and you want level 3 spells. Or maybe grab one level of Warlock a bit earlier as a compromise (one-level delay is still acceptable).
2/ You plan on learning as many rituals as possible as a Tome Warlock because noone else in party has rituals: in which case dip after Sorcerer 5, some could argue even just after Sorcerer 3 in fact.
3/ You want to have fun with 1-point or 2-point metamagics and plan on using Warlock short-rest slots for it: then you could take one level of Warlock very early, then another after Sorcerer 6, then maybe even a third level past Sorcerer 8.

Sooo... Above are opinions for "single" reasons. In case you find several of them as true...

1+2+3? Sorcerer 1 > Warlock 2 > Sorcerer 3 > Warlock 3 > Sorcerer X (you are a Tome Warlock that happens to like metamagics ;)).

1+3? Sorcerer 1 > Warlock 2 > Sorcerer X (Warlock 3 somewhere if you'd like).

1+2? Sorcerer 3 > Warlock 3 > Sorcerer X

2+3? Same.

Have fun ;)


A sorcerer 1 / warlock 2 into warlock 3 / sorcerer 2 is, arguably, better than a pure Sorcerer. You cast a lot more spells, you get the invocations, you get the Pact bonus, and you can turn warlock slots into up to 4 sorcery points per short rest. Considering a level 5 sorcerer only gets 5 sorcery points per day, that's huge. Assuming two short rests pet day, that's 15 sorcery points compared to 5. There's no comparison.

I would start there.


Easy_lee's analysis is spot on.

Unfortunately it's not. It's extremely wrong sadly.
Sorcerer 2 doesn't have any metamagic.
You need at least 3 levels in Sorcerer.
And depending on the kind of Metamagic you use (Quicken or Twin), you may very well want 4 levels of Sorcerer to avoid some painful juggling if you need/want to use it twice in the same encounter (basically you'd have to dedicate one bonus action on a turn to burn one slot).

Furthermore, the pure Sorcerer has better spells in some categories (at least AOE, between Fireball and Slow/Hypnotic Pattern) so will behave much better in adventuring days that don't strictly enforce the short rest policy, or adventuring days with especially difficult encounters. AND he got a first ASI to improve his casting all day, every day.

I love the Sorcerer / Warlock multiclass, as well as many people here, but that does not prevent me to see its limitations. :)
Now, if I was invited to create a CHA-caster in a party that has a Bard/Wizard that likes to use Rope Trick / LTH to guarantee short rests, I'd very probably go with Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 2 rather than Sorcerer 5 and work up from there (Warlock 3 > Sorcerer 5 > Warlock 5 > X).

But without any context, it's really hard to consider the multiclass as better than the single-class "overall", even if obviously in some aspects it would trump it (namely, sustained offense with Eldricht Blast + Hex -better than pure Sorcerer-, defense with Shield -better than pure Warlock-). It really depends on the build focus. :)

[Easy_Lee]

Unfortunately it's not. It's extremely wrong sadly.
Sorcerer 2 doesn't have any metamagic.

I didn't say metamagic, I said sorcery points. Sorcerer 2 has those, and can turn them into spell slots. Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 2. Each short rest, you take any unused warlock spell slots you have, turn them into sorcery points, then turn 2 sorcery points into a level 1 spell slot. Then you get your warlock spell slots back. Your warlock spell slots are level 2, so you can cast bigger effects out of those. When you don't need a bigger effect, you use a level 1 slot or a cantrip. And you can get those slots back. Then you get metamagic at level 6, sorcerer 3, and the floodgates open.

Alternatively, get metamagic first and get your pact boon and 2nd level warlock slots at 6th level. Both build orders are effective.

[Dalebert]

I have a draconic sorc 1 / warlock 5 kobold right now. His invisible imp flies him around. It's great! You have to watch your weight and thus can't carry much but you shouldn't need to. Sorcerer removes need for light armor and solves the bulk of the weight issue.

Chain is great for a kobold warlock. The imp can get next to things and provide pack tactics. Heck, it can even fly you right up to enemies and then fly you away. Since it's invisible, it doesn't provoke. You don't provoke because you're not the one using your movement. It can administer potions to downed PCs saving you your action. It can use a Wand of Magic Missiles or a Tentacle Rod and stay invisible. You can give it a Ring of Spell Storing and it can cast any non-concentration spell and stay invisible (Dissonant Whispers?) or it could concentrate on a spell for you and then go hide somewhere (because it becomes visible). It's just SO much bang for the buck. Only downside to a Ring of Spell Storing for a warlock is eventually you can only ever put one spell in it.

[8wGremlin]

Try it with a winged monkey familiar from ToA

[Citan]

I didn't say metamagic, I said sorcery points. Sorcerer 2 has those, and can turn them into spell slots. Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 2. Each short rest, you take any unused warlock spell slots you have, turn them into sorcery points, then turn 2 sorcery points into a level 1 spell slot. Then you get your warlock spell slots back. Your warlock spell slots are level 2, so you can cast bigger effects out of those. When you don't need a bigger effect, you use a level 1 slot or a cantrip. And you can get those slots back. Then you get metamagic at level 6, sorcerer 3, and the floodgates open.

Alternatively, get metamagic first and get your pact boon and 2nd level warlock slots at 6th level. Both build orders are effective.
So, basically, "convert 2nd level slots into 1st level ones" .
Ooookayyy...

Wow, such a great idea! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I understand what you mean, but one can only reasonably expect to get two additional 1st level slots for the day with that trick, because most DMs would admit that you can take one hour before the actual "start" to do this (provided of course, you don't have a set timing for a mission), but no more, unless rare occurences in which you can a) know precisely enough when the next big fight will be b) get enough "free time" before it to chain short rests.
Which should really not happen often in most campaigns (bad guys won't politely wait for you to buff yourself while drinking a coffee, plus many situations are presented to heroes "in emergency").

For your trick to work over a "normal" day (aka a day in which it's hard to anticipate what's coming next), for this trick to work, it requires...
1. For you to have a guaranteed safe short rest (**** may happen if your DM is a bit vicious, or just has habit of rolling random events and you luck out).
2. For you to still have unused Warlock slots.
But, there is no reason why your party would ever want to take a short rest if it didn't consume any resource. And if it consumed resources, it means you just had a fight some time ago. And in such occurence, chances are high that you would actually use those 2nd level slots, precisely because "better be safe than sorry" (rare are the situations in which you can accurately predict that you will have a safe short rest after a fight).

Besides that, Sorcerer 5 has one more 1st level slot, 1 more 2nd level slot, and 2 more 3rd level slots, and 3 more SP.
So the Sorcerer can easily reach the same amount of slots than a Warlock with one short rest, nearly same with two short rests.
So your trick is worth anything only when you can take more than 2 short rests in a consistant and reliable manner, simply because of the conversion loss.
In which case basically pure Warlocks also would trump any other casters.

[that_one_kobold]

I have a draconic sorc 1 / warlock 5 kobold right now. His invisible imp flies him around. It's great!
This is... amazing.