Might I ask for some character help? Been too long since I dusted off 3.5

[Odessa333]

Hello world!

So as the topic says, I'm a tad rusty with 3.5 and I'm struggling to get back into it.


I'm building a level 3 human sorcerer. She's a con woman, and in my rough idea / concept, she focuses more on illusions and enchantment more than direct damage. I'm thinking of trying to avoid TOO many direct damage spells (a more classic sorcerer style) so I start thinking of making up the damage with summoning monsters. I think I can grab silent image, charm person, and summon monster 1 to cover all those ideas. Yet as I look over feats, I'm not sure where to go from here, worrying I'm too spread out with 3 schools of magic. I like the idea, but I'm not sure how to properly execute it. I'd be very welcome to ideas the board might have.


Also, is there a good item/shopping list for 3.5? The main one I see has a lot of homebrew content mixed in, and it's throwing me off a tad.


Thank you for your time!

[CharonsHelper]

I'd probably avoid the early Summon Monster spells. They don't last long enough and the monsters are too weak. Tanking is what you have buddies for

For gear - the most important things are the big 6 (fewer for a caster since no weapon).

1. Magic Armor (replaced by Mage Armor for you) - though a mithril light shield can be nice

2. Magic Weapon (unnecessary for Arcane caster)

3. Amulet of Natural Armor

4. Ring of Protection

5. Cloak of Resistance

6. Primary Stat Booster (secondary stat boosters can be nice too)

Plus - as an arcane caster the metamagic rods can be nice.

As a sorcerer you probably shouldn't go totally with enchantments since so many things are immune (ex: undead). Silent Image does work on undead, but I'd check with your DM for how they rule on it - as the image spells have a lot of table variance.

And really - blasting are generally the worst spells in 3.x - so you aren't losing much by avoiding them. (if you really want to blast - go Psychic instead) Arcane casters are better off focusing on battlefield control and buffing.

[Darrin]

What sourcebooks are available? Are online sources ok? How about Dragon magazine?

As far as spell selection goes, I'd probably take color spray over summon monster, mostly because of the duration issue, but duration will go up as your CL goes up.

For feats... again, that depends a great deal on what sourcebooks are available. Assuming it's "anything in a hardback", Anarchic Bloodline from Dragon Compendium would takes some pressure off of spell selection. If it's Core only (PHB, DMG, MM), then... ook. Once you're out of spells, you're basically a light crossbow with 3d4 HPs, so maybe Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot?

[CharonsHelper]

Once you're out of spells, you're basically a light crossbow with 3d4 HPs, so maybe Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot?

If spells/day is a major factor you'd be better off focusing on Silent Image for the time being (unless your DM screws it over) as it can last an entire fight and spend your feats on useful things like Spell Focus & Metamagic feats.

[Eldariel]

For spells, you have a pretty good selection. I'd probably pick Color Spray or Sleep for combat contributions. Indeed though, this is a good path to follow and something sorcerers naturally excel at (Charisma for Charm Person-checks makes the spell all the more powerful). Don't forget cantrips! Prestidigitation (it does an incredible amount (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344300-Official-list-of-expanded-uses-for-Prestidigitation) and lasts 1 hour/casting), Detect Magic, Ghost Sounds, Message can all be huge. Ghost Sounds with Silent Image in particular.

As stated, Summons really begin to pick up their combat potential around Summon Monster 3 (Summon Desert Ally 1-2 [Sandstorm] are strong for those levels), but you don't really need damage spells (if you go Summons, Augment Summoning is a must). Summon Monster 3 has e.g. Dretch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch) which has a great spell-like ability (can be readied to break line of sight to spoil enemy spells or charges or attacks or such, and also is a save-or-lose) that can keep fighting afterwards. Also the pure warrior creatures begin to pick up; see Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5).

For combat, all you need are key save-or-Xs; pick from Color Spray, Sleep, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image [no save], Web, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics, Stinking Cloud, Slow, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Wall of Force, etc. Remember, many have effects even if enemy makes their save. Those are generally way better than any damage spells.


I'd probably avoid the early Summon Monster spells. They don't last long enough and the monsters are too weak. Tanking is what you have buddies for

For gear - the most important things are the big 6 (fewer for a caster since no weapon).

1. Magic Armor (replaced by Mage Armor for you) - though a mithril light shield can be nice

2. Magic Weapon (unnecessary for Arcane caster)

3. Amulet of Natural Armor

4. Ring of Protection

5. Cloak of Resistance

6. Primary Stat Booster (secondary stat boosters can be nice too)

Plus - as an arcane caster the metamagic rods can be nice.

As a sorcerer you probably shouldn't go totally with enchantments since so many things are immune (ex: undead). Silent Image does work on undead, but I'd check with your DM for how they rule on it - as the image spells have a lot of table variance.

And really - blasting are generally the worst spells in 3.x - so you aren't losing much by avoiding them. (if you really want to blast - go Psychic instead) Arcane casters are better off focusing on battlefield control and buffing.

Eh, those items are really pointless for casters mostly. Primary stat booster, metamagic rod, caster level boosters, that's about it. Spells give you armor bonus, deflection bonus, resistance bonus, natural armor and anything else you might desire. Thus, caster itemization is mostly about making them better casters. Protection/Magic Circle grant deflection/resistance, Greater/Superior Resistance [Spell Compendium] grant a ton of resistance, etc.

[CharonsHelper]

Eh, those items are really pointless for casters mostly. Primary stat booster, metamagic rod, caster level boosters, that's about it. Spells give you armor bonus, deflection bonus, resistance bonus, natural armor and anything else you might desire. Thus, caster itemization is mostly about making them better casters. Protection/Magic Circle grant deflection/resistance, Greater/Superior Resistance [Spell Compendium] grant a ton of resistance, etc.

Only if you want to go pure glass cannon. I like decent passive defences, and I'd rather lower my casting slightly for the ability to not keel over from the first mook who gets to melee with Power Attack. Or the first time half a dozen mooks with bows realize that they should target the caster. (And they should DEFINITELY have a saves booster.)

Though - how much defence you need is going to vary by table. I've seen GMs who always have monsters/NPCs target whoever is in front even when it's dumb. Myself - I figure that any NPC with a 3+ INT knows to go after the guy in robes waving his arms around first when viable.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered playing a Beguiler instead of a Sorcerer? If you dip Sandshaper (which is especially good for a Beguiler, due to their specialized spell list), you can add some summoning spells to your spell list, although they're not very good.

If you do go the Beguiler route, dip into Mindbender for a single level in order to pick up Telepathy (and qualify you for the Mindsight feat) and increase the maximum level of spell available to be picked by your Advanced Learning class feature.

Pick up the Mother Cyst feat, the Cerebrosis feat, and/or a bloodline feat if you're still hungry for more spells known.

These links might help you:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items
http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0

[Darrin]

Also, is there a good item/shopping list for 3.5? The main one I see has a lot of homebrew content mixed in, and it's throwing me off a tad.

Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)) does not include any homebrew. You probably won't be able to afford most of the Type I stuff, but you can pick out some of the more useful cheap stuff. When in doubt, buy more eggshell grenades.

I'm not sure where Bunko's Bargain Basement is currently housed, but here's a local repost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445114-quot-Bunko-s-Bargain-Basement-Magic-Items-That-Are-a-Steal!-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)).

Lists of Necessary Magical Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) has already been mentioned, but most of it will probably be out of your price rage. However, it's a good to keep in mind what sort of threats you need to prepare for.

[Eldariel]

Only if you want to go pure glass cannon. I like decent passive defences, and I'd rather lower my casting slightly for the ability to not keel over from the first mook who gets to melee with Power Attack. Or the first time half a dozen mooks with bows realize that they should target the caster. (And they should DEFINITELY have a saves booster.)

Though - how much defence you need is going to vary by table. I've seen GMs who always have monsters/NPCs target whoever is in front even when it's dumb. Myself - I figure that any NPC with a 3+ INT knows to go after the guy in robes waving his arms around first when viable.

None of that matters. Those items are redundant with spells you want anyways and thus gold invested in those is gold not invested in the thing that best keeps you alive: your spells. Your AC should come from those as should your resistances; this frees up your gold for where it counts. Utility, stealth, underlings, anything that makes you harder to target/better able to neutralize opponent before they get to attack. 20s exist no matter your AC so don't let 'em roll.

[CharonsHelper]

None of that matters. Those items are redundant with spells you want anyways and thus gold invested in those is gold not invested in the thing that best keeps you alive: your spells. Your AC should come from those as should your resistances; this frees up your gold for where it counts. Utility, stealth, underlings, anything that makes you harder to target/better able to neutralize opponent before they get to attack. 20s exist no matter your AC so don't let 'em roll.

I think that we're going to have to agree to disagree. Beyond the long-lasting spells (Mage Armor etc.) I don't want to spend the action economy on defensive spells if I can help it.

Maybe my games just have more ambushes and/or unexpected fights than yours, where I don't always have time to buff beforehand. *shrug*

[Eldariel]

I think that we're going to have to agree to disagree. Beyond the long-lasting spells (Mage Armor etc.) I don't want to spend the action economy on defensive spells if I can help it.

Maybe my games just have more ambushes and/or unexpected fights than yours, where I don't always have time to buff beforehand. *shrug*

Perhaps. I consider AC a last ditch effort that's likely to fail unless I'm using Alter Self/Polymorph for natural armor. Thus my preferred choice for dealing with ambushes is to be the better scout/sneak doing the ambushing instead. Same with surprise attacks; well informed is half won. Thus Dex feels more useful than NA/Def (and thus I'd rather invest there) winning initiative and stealth skill bonus both help a lot. And such. Doesn't always work but the less the better. Then disguises (why wear typical mage outfit?), misinformation, things to walk in front of you and clear areas.

Also, 10 min/level is often active without combat actions - this includes Alter Self and Magic Circle (and Resist Energy later on). This I find under +3 Deflection kinda waste (and +3 costs way too much) and same with Resistance (Superior Resistance literally beats all items at 24 hour duration). Then just Wings of Cover, Greater Mirror Image and all is set; immediate action or buff/empty round cast defenses.

[Kobold Esq]

Have you considered playing a Beguiler instead of a Sorcerer?


So much of this. Yes you'll miss out some things like summons and the like, but you will have an extensive selection of enchantments and illusions, better HP, and lots of skill points which will quickly dwarf your likely slightly lower skill charisma bonus for use in bluff/diplomacy/sleight of hand, etc.

Depending on how high optimization your game is, you can run anything from a straight beguiler to some combo using ultimate magus or ways to add spells to your spell list (like the aforementioned sandshaper).

[Captn_Flounder]

For a conwoman, would you consider a beguiler? Its kinda like a Sorcerer mixed with a Rogue, but with an emphasis on Enchantment and illusion spells. Its in Player's Handbook 2, so it's almost core.

Otherwise I would go with a Wizard over Sorcerer. You can flat out ban Evocation (and something else, probably necromancy) and specialize if you so choose. The reasoning for Wizard is that a lot of magical "scams" require a lot of spells that aren't very useful otherwise.

For instance, one of my favorite low level cons is "Mount" + "Magic Aura" + "Disguise/Alter Self." You create a magic horse, make it appear as a mundane horse, and remember to change your appearance so it's harder to track you down later when the horse goes *poof*.

As a sorcerer, I would be foolish to add both Mount AND Magic Aura to my limited spell list. As a wizard, I've paid the cost to scribe both spells in my book multiple times over using the scam.

[Grod_The_Giant]

First question: what books are available? We can recommend things like Beguiler until we're blue in the face, but it won't help if the book isn't allowed.

[ATHATH]

You can flat out ban Evocation (and something else, probably necromancy) and specialize if you so choose.
Pro-tip: If you're having trouble trying to decide on a second school to ban... don't!

Step 1: Apply the Aligned Spellcaster (Chaotic) ACF to your Wizard, which makes all of your non-[Chaotic] spells [Chaotic] at the cost of not getting a familiar (just pick one up with the Obtain Familiar feat later, which will cause it to scale to your CL rather than your Wizard level).
Step 2: Apply the Abyssal Specialist ACF, which specializes you in a "school" of magic consisting of all [Evil], [Darkness], [Compulsion], [Fear], and [Chaotic] spells and only forces you to ban one school instead of two (if you want to ban two schools anyway for some reason, pick up the Focused Specialist ACF, which will net you an extra spell slot of each level per day at the cost of banning an additional school).
Step 3: Take the Chaotic Spell Recall feat because it synergizes well with the Aligned Spellcaster (Chaotic) ACF.

Oh, and don't forget to pick up the Spontaneous Divination ACF (lets you spontaneously convert your prepared spells into a Divination spells (that you know) like a Cleric can with Cure/Inflict spells at the cost of a single bonus feat) at 5th level, because it's REALLY good. You don't even have to be a Divination specialist in order to take it!

Finally, may I recommend being a Changeling as your race? In addition to having some cool racial abilities (at-will shapeshifting!), they have some pretty sweet Wizard substitution levels. The 5th level one in particular (trade your 5th level bonus feat to give your familiar the ability to transform into another familiar that you can have at-will) combos especially well with feats that give you extra familiar options (like, say, the Improved Familiar feat (SLAs for days!)).

[Captn_Flounder]

Wow, thank you ATHATH! That is absolutely brilliant.

[ATHATH]

Wow, thank you ATHATH! That is absolutely brilliant.
I think I might have ninja-edited you there.

[ATHATH]

Oh, and just to be clear- I still think that being a Beguiler would be more appropriate than being a Wizard for your character; I'm just giving you some Wizard-tips in case you want to stick with Wizard for some reason.

[Captn_Flounder]

I think I might have ninja-edited you there.

Thanks for letting me know. Even more brilliant.

[Nifft]

Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)) does not include any homebrew. You probably won't be able to afford most of the Type I stuff, but you can pick out some of the more useful cheap stuff. When in doubt, buy more eggshell grenades.

I'm not sure where Bunko's Bargain Basement is currently housed, but here's a local repost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445114-quot-Bunko-s-Bargain-Basement-Magic-Items-That-Are-a-Steal!-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)).

Lists of Necessary Magical Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) has already been mentioned, but most of it will probably be out of your price rage. However, it's a good to keep in mind what sort of threats you need to prepare for. Seconding these, but adding a warning: some of those items look too good to be true (e.g. Aboleth Mucus in a jar).

Those items either are too good to be true (thus don't exist), or they're just as overpowered in the hands of a dozen kobolds (thus you might not want to start an arms race with your DM by using them).

Overall, those lists are great, but be wary of some broken supplemental content.


Hello world!

So as the topic says, I'm a tad rusty with 3.5 and I'm struggling to get back into it.


I'm building a level 3 human sorcerer. She's a con woman, and in my rough idea / concept, she focuses more on illusions and enchantment more than direct damage. I'm thinking of trying to avoid TOO many direct damage spells (a more classic sorcerer style) so I start thinking of making up the damage with summoning monsters. I think I can grab silent image, charm person, and summon monster 1 to cover all those ideas. Yet as I look over feats, I'm not sure where to go from here, worrying I'm too spread out with 3 schools of magic. I like the idea, but I'm not sure how to properly execute it. I'd be very welcome to ideas the board might have.


Also, is there a good item/shopping list for 3.5? The main one I see has a lot of homebrew content mixed in, and it's throwing me off a tad.


Thank you for your time!
Level 3 Sorcerer is a tough one, especially since it sounds like you don't have a party. (Is that accurate, or do you have a party?)

You've got 3 level 1 spells, and 3 Feats.

Silent Image is fantastic, and will remain fantastic at high levels. Slot that one in and keep it forever.

As a con(wo)man / trickster, I'd suggest NOT taking Summon Monster I. The duration is terrible at low levels, and the creatures summoned are speed-bumps.

Charm Person is a good spell, but as an alternative, I'd suggest looking at the spell alibi (from Exemplars of Evil). It's got a duration of Instantaneous, so it's not blocked by protection from ... spells, and it's very useful for establishing yourself as someone trustworthy in a way that can't be detected as an ongoing Enchantment or whatever.

What setting are you playing in? Can you use Dragon Magazine content?

How about WotC web enhancements?


If you're by yourself (no party) and you want to fake summoning a creature, I suggest gaining an animal companion (with this feat (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)) and disguising or hiding the animal using silent image (and a trick to keep it from moving until the reveal). The nice thing about this is that you'll have a nice big beast with you full-time when traveling, so you don't have to spend a round summoning it during an ambush.

Not as good as the above: trade your familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) for an Animal Companion, then buy back your familiar at level 3 with the Obtain Familiar feat. The bad thing is that it levels up at half your Sorcerer level; the nice thing is that it would get Share Spells at level 1, as would your Familiar when you buy it back at level 3.


Do you need to handle all the tricky skill checks yourself? If so, you'll want to buy some cross-class skills. Luckily you're human, so you can take Able Learner at level 1, so all cross-class skills only cost 1 point per rank. You still max out at half the usual ranks, but 2 points of Disguise is better than no points. Same deal for Diplomacy, it's a skill you want to have. You might also consider Forgery & Appraise, or Sleight of Hand & Sense Motive.

You could also do something like... use disguise self to disguise your Familiar as you, walking next to your animal cohort; then dismiss the spell to "disappear". You'd want a feat to extend the Share Spells feature, though: Companion Spellbond (PHB2) gets you 30 ft. for an animal companion; Enspell Familiar (Dragon Compendium) gets you 1 mile for a familiar.


Regarding the recommendations for Beguiler ... it's a very nice class, it has very nice skills and skill points. However, you're level 3, and being level 3 means you are one level away from gaining access to alter self, which is a whole new world of amazingness for a tricky person like yourself.

Is alter self so good that you should skip the superior casting mechanics and superior skill list and superior casting stat of Beguiler? Yes, yes it is. For me at least.



So, a bit of optimization within your parameters as a Human Sorcerer:

Race - Silverbrow Human (from Dragon Magic) gets you Disguise as a class skill with a +2 bonus, and feather fall 1/day (more at higher levels). That's almost as good as a bonus spell known since you don't expect to use feather fall very often. You also get the (Dragonblood) subtype which makes some of your Sorcerer spells better. You lose your extra skill point per level, so this is good if you have high enough stats to buy up Intelligence at creation.

Alternative Class Features - Dragonblood Sorcerer - lose your Familiar to get a bonus feat, +2 to Knowledge(arcana), and you add Use Magic Device to your skill list. This is a good trade because the Obtain Familiar feat works off your caster level, not Sorcerer level, so when you take a PrC later your feat-based Familiar will improve with you.

The feat you get is Draconic Heritage, and you get to pick any dragon type from Races of the Dragon (p.103), which gets you another class skill. You also get a bonus on saves vs. sleep & paralysis, and saves vs. effects with the listed descriptor. Some options which I like are:
Battle Dragon - [Sonic] - Perform skill
Bronze Dragon - [Acid] - Survival skill
Crystal Dragon - [Cold] - Diplomacy skill
Deep Dragon - [Charm] - Spot skill
Gold Dragon - [Fire] - Heal skill


Now you need two more feats. You have Draconic Heritage which opens up a bunch of options from Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic.

- Do you want all the Knowledge skills as class skills? Draconic Knowledge (Dragon Magic).
- Do you expect to be in combat with a lot of weak enemies (including swarms)? Draconic Breath (Races of the Dragon) -- this is basically Burning Hands, except it ignores spell resistance and you can make it a 30 ft. cone or a 60 ft. line. Not the best effect, but at least it's an area attack which can make reasonably good use of your low-level spell slots.

Those aren't the best feats, though. The best feats are the ones which change how you interact with magic, or increase your spells known.

Do you have access to Dragon Compendium? If so, then strongly consider one of the feats, which teaches you an extra spell at every spell level.

Able Learner might be good for you -- if you have enough Intelligence points to make good use of it. Note that the Dragonblood racial sub level only gives you access to UMD for this one level, so if you want to keep that maximized then you'll make good use of Able Learner with even a 14 Intelligence.

As far as I can see, the skills you need are:
- Bluff
- Concentration

The skills you want are:
- Diplomacy
- Use Magic Device
- Spellcraft
- Knowledge (arcana)
- Sense Motive
- Sleight of Hand

Hmm.

I feel like long-term, you're going to want more skill points. Are you open to some multi-classing to get you into a really juicy Prestige Class?

If so, open this:

[B]Unseen Seer is a prestige class from Complete Mage, and it advances casting + sneak attack + gives you 6+Int skill points per level. It's a great fit for a sneaky caster.


Prereqs for Unseen Seer:
- Hide 8 ranks , Search 8 ranks , Sense Motive 4 ranks , Spellcraft 4 ranks , Spot 8 ranks
- Able to cast 1st level spells, including a Divination

The 1st level spell Magecraft is a Divination which allows you to disguise yourself as a journeyman of any craft. It's a good fit for your character, especially at low levels -- and at higher levels you can use it to do funky things with stone shape and fabricate and Alchemy.



Silverbrow Human
Str: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 13 (bigger is better)
Int: 14 (at least 14)
Wis: 10
Cha: 15 (highest)

Level 1: Rogue 1
* Feat: Able Learner
* Feat: Wild Cohort
+ Skills (8+2)x4 = 40 points: Bluff 4, Concentration 2, Diplomacy 4, Hide 4, Search 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 2, Spot 4, Tumble 4 ... and eight points left over, pick two of (Forgery 4) or (Sleight of Hand 4) or (Survival 2, Heal 2) or (Craft: Alchemy 4).
+ Sneak Attack +1d6

Level 2: Sorcerer 1
* ACF: Dragonblood Sorcerer; Feat: Draconic Heritage
+ Skills (2+2) = 4 points: Hide +1, Search +1, Spot +1, Spellcraft +1
+ Spells:
- L0: Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Touch of Fatigue
- L1: Magecraft (Eberron Campaign Setting; pass yourself off as any type of craftsman); Alibi or Charm Person

Level 3: Sorcerer 2
* L3 Feat: Obtain Familiar -- you qualify thanks to your racial feather fall spell-like ability.
+ Skills (2+2) = 4 points: Hide +1, Search +1, Spot +1, Spellcraft +1
+ Spells:
- L0: Stick (Spell Compendium; basically elmer's glue, which allows you to hide things & set booby traps)


== == == The Future == == ==

Level 4: Sorcerer 3
* L4 Stat: +1 Charisma
+ Skills (2+2) = 4 points: Hide +1, Search +1, Spot +1, Bluff +1
+ Spells:
- L1: Silent Image

Level 5: Sorcerer 4
+ Skills (2+2) = 4 points: Hide +1, Search +1, Spot +1, Bluff +1
+ Spells:
- L0: Ghost Sound or Amanuensis (Spell Compendium; copies non-magical writing)
- L2: Alter Self

Level 6: Unseen Seer 1
* L6 Feat: Dragonmark Sorcerer: Making or Passage (if you're in Eberron and Dragon content is allowed); _____ Bloodline (if Dragon Compendium is allowed); Leadership (if Leadership is allowed); if none of those are allowed, then pick between Fiery Burst for combat, or Improved Familiar for a nice juicy Outsider with whom to share your Alter Self spell effect.
+ Skills (6+2) = 8 points: Bluff +2, Concentration +6
+ Sneak Attack +2d6
+ Spells (Sorc L5):
- L1: Friendly Face (Races of Destiny)
- L2: Scorching Ray

Level 7: Unseen Seer 2
+ Skills (6+2) = 8 points: Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Sense Motive +1, Concentration +1, Spellcraft +1, Tumble +1, and two more points... Forgery +2? Sleight of Hand +2?
+ Advanced Learning: learn a Divination spell from any list of 1st or 2nd level: if this really is any list then PrCs like Trapsmith are open, and spells like Arcane Sight (at level 1) are available. This is bonkers. If you only get base-class lists, that's fine: take Divine Insight from the Cleric list, which gives you 5 + your caster level (max +15) on ANY skill check.
+ Spells (Sorc L6):
- L0: Caltrops (Spell Compendium) or the other L5 choice
- L3: Dispel Magic

Level 8: Unseen Seer 3
+ Skills (6+2) = 8 points: Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Sense Motive +1, Concentration +1, Spellcraft +1, Tumble +1, Heal +2
+ Spells (Sorc 7):
- L1: Scholar's Touch (Races of Destiny) or Dessicating Touch (Sandstorm)
- L2: Insidious Insight (Races of Eberron; targets 1 creature; for 1 day/level gain a +10 insight bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks made against the target.)
- L3: Heart of Water (Complete Mage)

Level 9: Unseen Seer 4
* L9 Feat: Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis) -- gives a number of useful Necromancy spells, including one which emulates dominate person as a level 4 spell. You gain access to level 4 spells at this level. Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!
+ Skills (6+2) = 8 points: Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Sense Motive +1, Concentration +1, Spellcraft +1, Tumble +1, etc.
+ Sneak Attack +3d6
+ Spells (Sorc 8):
- L0: Launch Item or one of the earlier spells.
- L4: Polymorph

Level 10: Unseen Seer 5
+ Skills (6+2) = 8 points: Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Sense Motive +1, Concentration +1, Spellcraft +1, Tumble +1, etc.
+ Guarded Mind (permanent Nondetection)
+ Advanced Learning (up to 3rd now): Unluck (Spell Compendium) is good; so is Revelation (Dragons of Faerun) since it's usually only L3 for Clerics.
+ Spells (Sorc 9):
- L2: Share Talents? Cloud of Knives? Wraithstrike?
- L3: Major Image? Primal Instinct?
- L4: Shadow Conjuration

... and so on until Unseen Seer 10.

One thing to note: you'll probably want Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) at level 12, to compensate for what Unseen Seer does to your non-Divination caster level.

After Unseen Seer 10, you might want 5 levels of Arcane Trickster. Be sure to pick up the skill prereqs if you do.

[Rerednaw]

Given your predilection towards messing with opponent's minds...are Psions available? Even the base one from the SRD is pretty good. Go telepath and you can totally Doctor Strange them. "My Will is your Will" stuff.

if everything is open...then well you can have the refuel yourself build. If you want I can post the build. A bit feat-heavy but knowing you can recharge a bit after a fight is a huge relief.

[Odessa333]

Whew, took some time to talk to the DM, but I've been approved to this 'beguiler' class. I'm still waiting to hear back on a few questions (spell sources and such) yet I'm making progress :)


I do have a party, but they are a bit hard to describe. It's a four person party (including me) and we have a human bard, a dwarf playing some kind of psionic mantle (not sure what this is?), and an elf playing an alchemist modified from pathfinder as I understand it. The alchemist uses mutagen to 'hulk out' and is tanky, the dwarf says he is the dps with his odd power, and the bard is on support ('healing lite') and has no interest in being 'rogue like' so this beguiler class helps fill that role. A bit different, so here's hoping we can make it work, eh?

I'm reading over the beguiler now, and see how I can use this class and this thread to bring the idea to life.

[Eldariel]

Okay, Beguiler. While Sorcerer would've worked (and indeed, would've had more options than a Beguiler), the extra skill points and Trapfinding are certain to come in handy in a party lacking either. Check out the Beguiler Handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0) - and put some reasonable priority into Charisma if you want to pursue the mental manipulation/charming angle. Make sure to make good use of the few Advanced Learnings you get and if you want to Summon, remember that Shadow Conjuration spells can replicate Summon spells among other things (in lieu of being generally awesome). I generally pick those up at least.

In combat, again, remember Color Spray/Sleep/etc. Those spells are encounter enders being able to disable all enemies hit with rather high save DCs. You don't need to do a single point of damage (though you can finish them with knives or whatever). Also make heavy, creative use of Silent Image. A very versatile, powerful spell - mindless things can never figure out that the wall is not real and even intelligent things need to interact with whatever to get a save. Make one-sided darkness (you and your allies know it's not real, enemies don't), walls, images of reinforcements, something trippy like a hole opening up in the ground, etc. Superuseful spell.


Oh and do take Obtain Familiar! Familiar inherits your skill ranks and can Aid Another you with basically anything, run its own errands, scout, take its own checks and eventually Use Magic Device on Scrolls and Wands (at least talking ones like Raven and Improved Familiars). For high skill casters, they're superuseful - generally you want one that flies though (remember that they can deliver touch spells too, improving their usability).

[Mr Adventurer]

I took Obtain Familiar on a Factotum (houseruled so Arcane Dilettante qualified) and can confirm it's hilarious having the most skilled monkey on the planet.

[Odessa333]

I have to admit, I HATE feat selection. This keeps tripping me up. I am having a hard time picking anything I like lol. Everything seems so overly specialized and situational. I liked Able learner at first, and yet I think it would only apply to one skill I'm interested in (know nobility) which seems silly to spend a whole feat for that. Spell focus is handy, but I'm not sure what school to focus on yet. I'm thinking I might take obtain familiar (snake) for the bluff bonus at this point. I've been looking through feats for hours now and nothing looks right, in a 'is this really the best I can do?" sort of way.

I need to get to bed myself for now, and I can only hope this makes more sense in the morning.

[Nifft]

I have to admit, I HATE feat selection. This keeps tripping me up. I am having a hard time picking anything I like lol. Everything seems so overly specialized and situational. I liked Able learner at first, and yet I think it would only apply to one skill I'm interested in (know nobility) which seems silly to spend a whole feat for that. Spell focus is handy, but I'm not sure what school to focus on yet. I'm thinking I might take obtain familiar (snake) for the bluff bonus at this point. I've been looking through feats for hours now and nothing looks right, in a 'is this really the best I can do?" sort of way.

I need to get to bed myself for now, and I can only hope this makes more sense in the morning.

As a Beguiler, you probably don't need Able Learner.

You only need Able Learner if you plan to either take a bunch of cross-class skills for some reason, or if you plan to leave Beguiler and take a PrC which has a poor skill list.

What's good for a Beguiler:

At level 1:
- Shape Soulmeld: dissolving spittle + any Incarnum feat to get a point of Essentia (both from Magic of Incarnum)

At level 3:
- Obtain Familiar

At level 6:
- Improved Familiar or Share Soulmeld (if you took Shape Soulmeld at level 1; also from Magic of Incarnum)

Generally good for a Beguiler:
- Improved Initiative
- (Greater) Spell Focus: Illusion
- (Greater) Spell Focus: Enchantment

If you take Mindbender at level 6 to delay your Advanced Learning by one level:
- Mindsight (from Lords of Madness)

[ATHATH]

I have to admit, I HATE feat selection. This keeps tripping me up. I am having a hard time picking anything I like lol. Everything seems so overly specialized and situational. I liked Able learner at first, and yet I think it would only apply to one skill I'm interested in (know nobility) which seems silly to spend a whole feat for that. Spell focus is handy, but I'm not sure what school to focus on yet. I'm thinking I might take obtain familiar (snake) for the bluff bonus at this point. I've been looking through feats for hours now and nothing looks right, in a 'is this really the best I can do?" sort of way.

I need to get to bed myself for now, and I can only hope this makes more sense in the morning.
I recommend looking at interesting PrCs first (like Shadowcraft Mage or Rainbow Servant) before deciding on your feats, as the feat taxes required for getting into them tend to fill up feat slots.

As for feats, Obtain Familiar+Improved Familiar (or Darkness Familiar, if you're feeling edgy) is pretty nice if you have two feat slots to spare, and Wild Cohort+Natural Bond is almost always really good. I mean, who DOESN'T want to have Raptor Jesus (a fleshraker with the Celestial template (obtained from the Exalted Companion feat) and the Vow of Poverty feat) on their side?

Also, your suspicions were right- there IS a better way to get a Knowledge(XYZ) skill on your class skill list. Go look up the Knowledge Devotion feat. If you don't like it (it is admittedly better on martial characters than on spellcasters), check out some other options here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills).

[Kobold Esq]

Note that Able Learner won't turn a cross class skill into a class skill, so your max ranks are still half that of a class skill. It is most beneficial for someone who is aggressively multiclassing (for example, a something like a Rogue1/Wizard X, or a Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus X) to maintain the max ranks in the class skills of the starter class.

[Eldariel]

Spell Focus > Unsettling Enchantment is rather nice for AOE combat enchantments (like Confusion), which are also very strong BFC effects. Illusion stuff is quite useful as well; Vow of Nonviolence too if you feel so inclined. Other than that, Vow of Nonviolence is really, really powerful on Beguilers if you outsource damage dealing anyways. +4 to your DCs is just bonkers.