Making Iaijutsu Focus work

[heavyfuel]

Iaijutsu Focus has this super flavorful mechanic, but like most flavorful and mundane mechanics, the designers thought it should be absolutelty terrible.

IF is supposed to be this killing blow that very few people survive, but capped at 9d6 (average of 31 dmg) if you can hit a DC 50, it's far from being so.

This got me thinking, how could we optimize IF to being what it was always meant to be.

Some ground rules:
- No ubercharging. A character charging for NI damage isn't really using IF;
- No multiple attacks (iteratives, AoO, twf, etc). IF is supposed to be a single massive hit;

So far what I have is a standard build with OA Samurai, Crusader, Iaijutsu Master, and power attack, which combined with maneuvers and IF, can deal considerable damage, but I'm sure we can do better

[ATHATH]

Is the damage multiplied by a crit?

[FreddyNoNose]

Iaijutsu Focus has this super flavorful mechanic, but like most flavorful and mundane mechanics, the designers thought it should be absolutelty terrible.

IF is supposed to be this killing blow that very few people survive, but capped at 9d6 (average of 31 dmg) if you can hit a DC 50, it's far from being so.

This got me thinking, how could we optimize IF to being what it was always meant to be.

Some ground rules:
- No ubercharging. A character charging for NI damage isn't really using IF;
- No multiple attacks (iteratives, AoO, twf, etc). IF is supposed to be a single massive hit;

So far what I have is a standard build with OA Samurai, Crusader, Iaijutsu Master, and power attack, which combined with maneuvers and IF, can deal considerable damage, but I'm sure we can do better

You should look at the Bushido RPG rules on it. Very Deadly in an Iajutsu fight.

[heavyfuel]

Unfortunately not as it's damage dice. Iaijutsu Master at lv 5 adds their Cha bonus to each dice and this weird language makes it unclear whether or not the Cha is multiplied or not

[heavyfuel]

You should look at the Bushido RPG rules on it. Very Deadly in an Iajutsu fight.

Is it from WotC? Otherwise it's out

[Grod_The_Giant]

Decisive Strike Monk?

[Psyren]

You've banned iteratives but damage in this game is based on them quite heavily. Your easiest solution is to simply refluff your consideration of what a "full-attack" is and add up the damage as though it were one strike.

Even without that though, keep in mind that 31 average is before other sources (e.g. the weapon damage including enhancement, Str bonus, sneak attack, power attack and so on.) So on its own, I.F. gets you close to the 50 damage threshold required to trigger a massive damage save, which would fit with your desire to make it a one-hit KO.

If I personally wanted a "one punch man" kind of attack though, I would port in Mythic Vital Strike from PF.

[remetagross]

A very neat feat from Dragon Compendium: Mercurial Strike. Each time someone triggers an AoO from you, you can immediately draw a weapon and attack the foe with it as your AoO, and the ennemy is flat-footed against that attack. Bam, no need for Gnomish Quickrazors anymore, any two-handed weapon will do the trick and add that tasty 2:1 ration of Power Attack in the mix. Works very nicely with Decisive Strike as mentioned by Grod above.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A very neat feat from Dragon Compendium: Mercurial Strike. Each time someone triggers an AoO from you, you can immediately draw a weapon and attack the foe with it as your AoO, and the ennemy is flat-footed against that attack. Bam, no need for Gnomish Quickrazors anymore, any two-handed weapon will do the trick and add that tasty 2:1 ration of Power Attack in the mix. Works very nicely with Decisive Strike as mentioned by Grod above.
Nah, you still want Quickrazors because they can be sheathed as a free action-- otherwise you run into the "bag o' katanas" problem where you have to keep drawing and dropping weapons if you want to make multiple attacks.

[heavyfuel]

Decisive Strike Monk?

The only problem is also finding a way to move before the attack, such as Travel Devotion. It could work with dipping Cleric and Monk, but losing 2 points of BAB delays Iaijutsu Master 5 from lv 12 (very late) to lv 14 (even later)


You've banned iteratives but damage in this game is based on them quite heavily. Your easiest solution is to simply refluff your consideration of what a "full-attack" is and add up the damage as though it were one strike.

Even without that though, keep in mind that 31 average is before other sources (e.g. the weapon damage including enhancement, Str bonus, sneak attack, power attack and so on.) So on its own, I.F. gets you close to the 50 damage threshold required to trigger a massive damage save, which would fit with your desire to make it a one-hit KO.

If I personally wanted a "one punch man" kind of attack though, I would port in Mythic Vital Strike from PF.

Even if I wanted to refluff, I honestly don't think the DM would be keen on this idea

While reaching the 50 dmg threshold for massive damage is quite nice, it's so ridiculously easy to pass a CD 15 Fort save that most enemies will only do on a Nat 1

I thought about backporting Vital Strike, and don't think the DM would have problems with it, but a maximum of 2d6 extra damage for a feat isn't very impressive (and you basically forced into a Greatsword with the feat)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Diamond Nightmare Blade fits the Iaijutsu Focus theme very well. It doesn't multiply IF damage, but it does combine well with full Power Attack. Combined with Iaijutsu Master and a nice 24 Charisma, you can get about 9d6+72 IF damage, and an additional 40 PA damage (if necessary, divine power gets you the bab for that), plus the x4 multiplier. With all the usual stuff (~30 Strength, +5 weapon, and so on), you'll hit about 300 damage plus 100 IF damage, or 300 damage plus 300 IF damage if you multiply the Charisma modifiers.

[heavyfuel]

A very neat feat from Dragon Compendium: Mercurial Strike. Each time someone triggers an AoO from you, you can immediately draw a weapon and attack the foe with it as your AoO, and the ennemy is flat-footed against that attack. Bam, no need for Gnomish Quickrazors anymore, any two-handed weapon will do the trick and add that tasty 2:1 ration of Power Attack in the mix. Works very nicely with Decisive Strike as mentioned by Grod above.


Nah, you still want Quickrazors because they can be sheathed as a free action-- otherwise you run into the "bag o' katanas" problem where you have to keep drawing and dropping weapons if you want to make multiple attacks.

Bag of Katanas is still a problem, but I really dislike the quickrazor for the same fluffy reasons I hate the spiked chain. No harm in keeping it in the discussion for people with no such hatred though :smallbiggrin:

Mercurial Strike, however, is definitely on my list! I'm getting it asap

[remetagross]

Nah, you still want Quickrazors because they can be sheathed as a free action-- otherwise you run into the "bag o' katanas" problem where you have to keep drawing and dropping weapons if you want to make multiple attacks.

You're completely right. Those can work hand in hand.

[Lazymancer]

So far what I have is a standard build with OA Samurai, Crusader, Iaijutsu Master, and power attack, which combined with maneuvers and IF, can deal considerable damage, but I'm sure we can do better
Skill bonus from Item Familiar (effectively doubles skill ranks).
Marshal can motivate Charisma (doubles Charisma bonus - skill only).

Also, default character should be Factotum which also gets to add 1/day class level as a bonus to skill and can simultaneously do sneak damage via Cunning Strike.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The only problem is also finding a way to move before the attack, such as Travel Devotion. It could work with dipping Cleric and Monk, but losing 2 points of BAB delays Iaijutsu Master 5 from lv 12 (very late) to lv 14 (even later)
Holy Monk (Dragon 310) trades their 1st and 6th level bonus feats for Smite Evil (hey, every little bit helps), Aura of Courage, and Turn Undead. You can power Travel Devotion without dipping that way...

Edit: or just ask for fractional bab

[Psyren]

I thought about backporting Vital Strike, and don't think the DM would have problems with it, but a maximum of 2d6 extra damage for a feat isn't very impressive (and you basically forced into a Greatsword with the feat)

I said Mythic Vital Strike. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/vital-strike-mythic/) This multiplies not just the weapon damage, but all bonuses (that would be multiplied on a crit.) It's stronger than the regular version of course, but the regular version is weak anyway so (if I was set on this concept) this is the version I'd try to port in, especially since I'd be paying another feat for each "iteration" anyway.

[heavyfuel]

Diamond Nightmare Blade fits the Iaijutsu Focus theme very well. It doesn't multiply IF damage, but it does combine well with full Power Attack. Combined with Iaijutsu Master and a nice 24 Charisma, you can get about 9d6+72 IF damage, and an additional 40 PA damage (if necessary, divine power gets you the bab for that), plus the x4 multiplier. With all the usual stuff (~30 Strength, +5 weapon, and so on), you'll hit about 300 damage plus 100 IF damage, or 300 damage plus 300 IF damage if you multiply the Charisma modifiers.

Interesting. I had gone with Crusader for Cha synergy, but Warblade is probably better as it gets it without spending a feat (or maybe I could even go both?)


Skill bonus from Item Familiar (effectively doubles skill ranks).
Marshal can motivate Charisma (doubles Charisma bonus - skill only).

Also, default character should be Factotum which also gets to add 1/day class level as a bonus to skill and can simultaneously do sneak damage via Cunning Strike.

I was just reading Item Familiar thinking about it, and decided against it for a couple of reasons. The ranks invested don't give you actual ranks, but just a big bonus (so they can't be used to qualify for things such as Epic Iaijutsu Focus).

Also, losing the item roalyally screws you. Even a Wizard losing their spellbook isn't as screwed as you are if you lose your item familiar. It just leaves the character far too vulnerable

While I initially thought of Factotum, they face the same BAB problem as the Monk. Despite their utility, this character is more focused on direct damage than anything else


Holy Monk (Dragon 310) trades their 1st and 6th level bonus feats for Smite Evil (hey, every little bit helps), Aura of Courage, and Turn Undead. You can power Travel Devotion without dipping that way...

Edit: or just ask for fractional bab

Hmm, very interesting. Will definitely keep this in mind. While I don't think fractional BAB will be in play, not losing the extra point of BAB is nice


I said Mythic Vital Strike. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/vital-strike-mythic/) This multiplies not just the weapon damage, but all bonuses (that would be multiplied on a crit.) It's stronger than the regular version of course, but the regular version is weak anyway so (if I was set on this concept) this is the version I'd try to port in, especially since I'd be paying another feat for each "iteration" anyway.

Oh, that is sweet! Too bad it's mythic. I'm not sure how the DM would handle mythic things in this game, but if I can get this, I'm for sure gonna.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm, very interesting. Will definitely keep this in mind. While I don't think fractional BAB will be in play, not losing the extra point of BAB is nice.
It also lets you nab Invisible Fist, which will maybe let you catch people flat-footed. Possibly. Arguably. The Rules Compendium says that "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you," and that "Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check," and that being invisible gives you total cover-- which, taken together, means that if you're invisible people are flat-footed, not just denied Dex as the "Invisibility" entry says.

Your mileage may vary.

[Thurbane]

A very neat feat from Dragon Compendium: Mercurial Strike. Each time someone triggers an AoO from you, you can immediately draw a weapon and attack the foe with it as your AoO, and the ennemy is flat-footed against that attack. Bam, no need for Gnomish Quickrazors anymore, any two-handed weapon will do the trick and add that tasty 2:1 ration of Power Attack in the mix. Works very nicely with Decisive Strike as mentioned by Grod above.

Thank you very much for that - not sure how I missed that feat. Would have been very useful in some builds I have made.


Nah, you still want Quickrazors because they can be sheathed as a free action-- otherwise you run into the "bag o' katanas" problem where you have to keep drawing and dropping weapons if you want to make multiple attacks.

A -2 Cursed Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#swordCursed) arguably works as well.

[heavyfuel]

It also lets you nab Invisible Fist, which will maybe let you catch people flat-footed. Possibly. Arguably. The Rules Compendium says that "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you," and that "Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check," and that being invisible gives you total cover-- which, taken together, means that if you're invisible people are flat-footed, not just denied Dex as the "Invisibility" entry says.

Your mileage may vary.

Where can I find Invisible Fist? It looks promising



A -2 Cursed Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#swordCursed) arguably works as well.

Jeez! That's hilarious! Hahahhaa

How bad is it that I want to grab that sword for this char?

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, so most 3.5 Iaijutsu builds are going to run into one of two problems:

1) Iaijutsu is a 3.0 skill that basically no 3.5 class has (with Factotum and Exemplar getting it because they get "all skills" as class skills.

2) It is difficult to consistently render an opponent flat-footed without losing significantly in the action economy (outside of a surprise round or an agreed-upon Iaijutsu duel).

There are many solutions to both of these problems, but solving both on the same character - while certainly possible - delays entry to Iaijutsu Master for quite some time, which makes Iaijutsu Combat a lot more viable.

Dip into Factotum to have your Iaijutsu Focus skill max out at HD+3 ranks. Of course, if you take levels in other classes, it won't be a class skill for them so it'll still cost double the skill points to max out the skill.

The first level of Human Paragon lets you choose 10 skills to be your class skills and also lets you choose one of those skills to be a class skill for any class you take. Because of that second part, it is (at least for this purpose) superior to dipping Factotum.

The feat "Aereni Focus" makes a chosen skill a class skill for you and gives you +3 to checks involving it; additionally, it counts as Skill Focus for pre-req purposes, which means it should be able to stack. Also, I'm pretty sure this means it's a class skill for you even if you multiclass, so that's good. Downside is, it's Eberron-specific and you have to be an Aereni Elf; this locks in your race/world, and makes it harder to justify a subrace with more appropriate ability modifiers.

A character with Improved Feint + Surprising Riposte who can manifest the Hustle Power can use a few PP and a swift action to make their opponent flat-footed for as long as they can manage to continue dealing damage to their opponent. This power is available to a Psion 5, a Psychic Warrior 4, and a Psychic Rogue 9, AFAICT. Psion can do it often, but is otherwise not great for combat, while Psychic Rogue gets it really late in exchange for also getting 2d6 of SA. I personally think of the three, Psychic Warrior MC'd into Fighter or Warblade would be your best bet for a build like this.

A Beguiler 6 with Improved Feint can feint as a swift action. It's not exactly a stellar combatant though.

An Invisible Blade 5 can feint as a free action with a limited array of weapons (daggers and equivalents). That said, given the ranged pre-reqs of the class, and that it requires 5 levels to get these benefits, you're delaying Iaijutsu Master so much that I don't think this would be worth aiming for even if you could somehow find a way to use a Katana with these abilities. If you could find such a method, this might be more viable in gestalt -
but then, gestalt would make all of this a lot simpler.

Scarlet Corsair 3 gives you Improved Feint as a prereq-less bonus feat, a die of SA (on top of the die you need to enter the class in the first place), and lets you Feint as a swift action (with a 2d4 round cooldown, although you can act normally during those rounds). Combined with Surprising Riposte, this might be a decent way of making opponents FF for most of a combat without sinking too many levels into getting these abilities (although you're still delaying Iaijutsu Master quite a bit).

I'm currently working on a vague build for this (Elf Fighter 6/Iaijutsu Master 5, using Aereni Focus, Primary Contact, and Item Familiar to quickly improve my Iaijutsu Focus skill), and more or less depend on challenging people to duels or getting surprise rounds, but if I was wanting a class that brought things online as quickly as possible and could make opponents FF more reliably, I'd probably suggest Elf Psychic Warrior 4/Fighter 4/Iaijutsu Master 5 with Improved Feint and Surprising Riposte; it delays entry to Iaijutsu Master a couple levels in exchange for some Psychic Warrior loveliness that's likely gonna mostly be you using SR to avoid you having to spam Hustle to operate in combat. Going Psychic Warrior also means you'll want a good Wisdom, which was close to the only dump stat you had at this point.

EDIT: Also, while I have yet to check, I imagine there might be a Bluff skill trick you can use to Swift/Free action Feint once per encounter, which can combine well with Surprising Riposte.

EDIT 2: Alright, after looking through things, I found four feinting-ish Skill Tricks:
Group Fake-Out: With a single feint attempt/roll, you can attempt to feint multiple opponents (taking a -2 per additional feinted person). Since it doesn't change how long they're FF, this is more useful for people making iteratives.
Timely Misdirection: This skill trick will prevent a feinted opponent from getting AoOs against you, although it doesn't speed things up. Still, useful against people with Robilar's Gambit and the like.
Hidden Blade: You can draw a hidden weapon as a move action instead of a standard, and foes who were unaware of the hidden weapon are flat-footed against the first attack you make that turn. This is pretty comparable to Improved Feint; it has no pre-reqs beyond ranks in SoH, and you can hide a weapon as a free action if you're super-good at SoH, but it's limited-use, and hiding weapons can only be done with light weapons.
Sudden Draw: Lets you draw a Hidden weapon and attack with it as part of an AoO, and opponent is FF against that AoO. It requires Quick Draw, but you wanted that for Iaijutsu Master anyway, and it pairs well with Hidden Blade. It's still dependent on the Hidden Weapon mechanic, though, which has problems as mentioned in the Hidden Blade section above.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Where can I find Invisible Fist? It looks promising
Exemplars of Evil. There's no alignment requirement or anything on the ACF, though.

[heavyfuel]

What part makes you unsure of wether the charisma is multiplied or not?

I think you're best of going with the usual crit focused build, getting iteratives as normal and giving them up to increase crit chance for the single hit with the targeteer fighter variant. Then on top a bit of extra charisma to x stuff like gauntlets of heartfelt blows, sudden stunning, maybe divine might, grace, and all that charisma good stuff.

Now that I've actually looked at the ability and the Critical Hit part on the SRD I'm sure it doesn't multiply, as you add your Cha mod to the dice of Iaijutsu Focus


Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.


[..]

Wow, let's split this up:


Alright, so most 3.5 Iaijutsu builds are going to run into one of two problems:

1) Iaijutsu is a 3.0 skill that basically no 3.5 class has (with Factotum and Exemplar getting it because they get "all skills" as class skills.

2) It is difficult to consistently render an opponent flat-footed without losing significantly in the action economy (outside of a surprise round or an agreed-upon Iaijutsu duel).

There are many solutions to both of these problems, but solving both on the same character - while certainly possible - delays entry to Iaijutsu Master for quite some time, which makes Iaijutsu Combat a lot more viable.

Dip into Factotum to have your Iaijutsu Focus skill max out at HD+3 ranks. Of course, if you take levels in other classes, it won't be a class skill for them so it'll still cost double the skill points to max out the skill.

The first level of Human Paragon lets you choose 10 skills to be your class skills and also lets you choose one of those skills to be a class skill for any class you take. Because of that second part, it is (at least for this purpose) superior to dipping Factotum.

The feat "Aereni Focus" makes a chosen skill a class skill for you and gives you +3 to checks involving it; additionally, it counts as Skill Focus for pre-req purposes, which means it should be able to stack. Also, I'm pretty sure this means it's a class skill for you even if you multiclass, so that's good. Downside is, it's Eberron-specific and you have to be an Aereni Elf; this locks in your race/world, and makes it harder to justify a subrace with more appropriate ability modifiers.

Indeed. Luckily we're playing with the houserule that "once a class skill, always a class skill" and the DM allowed for Aereni Focus even though we're not in Eberron. This makes things easier.

Also, I don't think there's any restriction to starting as a Paragon class, so the first level could be Human Paragon and automatically grab Adaptive Learning, no?


A character with Improved Feint + Surprising Riposte who can manifest the Hustle Power can use a few PP and a swift action to make their opponent flat-footed for as long as they can manage to continue dealing damage to their opponent. This power is available to a Psion 5, a Psychic Warrior 4, and a Psychic Rogue 9, AFAICT. Psion can do it often, but is otherwise not great for combat, while Psychic Rogue gets it really late in exchange for also getting 2d6 of SA. I personally think of the three, Psychic Warrior MC'd into Fighter or Warblade would be your best bet for a build like this.

A Beguiler 6 with Improved Feint can feint as a swift action. It's not exactly a stellar combatant though.

An Invisible Blade 5 can feint as a free action with a limited array of weapons (daggers and equivalents). That said, given the ranged pre-reqs of the class, and that it requires 5 levels to get these benefits, you're delaying Iaijutsu Master so much that I don't think this would be worth aiming for even if you could somehow find a way to use a Katana with these abilities. If you could find such a method, this might be more viable in gestalt -
but then, gestalt would make all of this a lot simpler.

Scarlet Corsair 3 gives you Improved Feint as a prereq-less bonus feat, a die of SA (on top of the die you need to enter the class in the first place), and lets you Feint as a swift action (with a 2d4 round cooldown, although you can act normally during those rounds). Combined with Surprising Riposte, this might be a decent way of making opponents FF for most of a combat without sinking too many levels into getting these abilities (although you're still delaying Iaijutsu Master quite a bit).


There's also winning initiative, which is a pretty big one. Then, I also found this handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8741.0) on how to make characters FF. Some very nice things.

I'm actually ok with losing some actions if I can in fact 1 shot most enemies.


I'm currently working on a vague build for this (Elf Fighter 6/Iaijutsu Master 5, using Aereni Focus, Primary Contact, and Item Familiar to quickly improve my Iaijutsu Focus skill), and more or less depend on challenging people to duels or getting surprise rounds, but if I was wanting a class that brought things online as quickly as possible and could make opponents FF more reliably, I'd probably suggest Elf Psychic Warrior 4/Fighter 4/Iaijutsu Master 5 with Improved Feint and Surprising Riposte; it delays entry to Iaijutsu Master a couple levels in exchange for some Psychic Warrior loveliness that's likely gonna mostly be you using SR to avoid you having to spam Hustle to operate in combat. Going Psychic Warrior also means you'll want a good Wisdom, which was close to the only dump stat you had at this point.

EDIT: Also, while I have yet to check, I imagine there might be a Bluff skill trick you can use to Swift/Free action Feint once per encounter, which can combine well with Surprising Riposte.

Indeed, delaying Iaijutsu Master and having no dump stat really hurts.

I checked the skill tricks and I don't think there's one that does that. There are, however, two Sleight of Hand related tricks that make opponents FF

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Nah, you still want Quickrazors because they can be sheathed as a free action-- otherwise you run into the "bag o' katanas" problem where you have to keep drawing and dropping weapons if you want to make multiple attacks.

There’s a feat in Pathfinder that lets you break the weapon you’re wielding to automatically confirm a critical. Since iirc the reason many Samurai carried multiple weapons was their fragility this seems appropriate.

[remetagross]

1) Iaijutsu is a 3.0 skill that basically no 3.5 class has (with Factotum and Exemplar getting it because they get "all skills" as class skills.

There is another way around it, though it's not crystal-clear RAW: using the OA Samurai. Since we are delving into 3.0 OA skills and PrCs anyway, that might be not too much of a stretch to talk the DM into allowing us the 3.0 OA Samurai as well. What we get is Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill while no BAB lost and a bunch of bonus feats.

Recently, I was wondering about an OA Samurai 7/Iaijutsu Master 5 with Combat Reflexes and Mercurial Strike (see above). That nabs us the Iaijutsu Master 5 just one level later than as soon as possible while keeping BAB up to the max and nabbing the Samurai 7 bonus feat, with still one open feat slot. Robilar's Gambit is taken at level 12.
Adding in a Gnome (whose Dex bonus goes nicely with Combat Reflexes) and a Quickrazor to do the trick, or a stash of katanas to take advantage of the free Weapon Finesse for katanas Iaijutsu Masters get.
What do to with standard actions on your turn? We can dip Sleeping Tiger Decisive Strike Monk 2 somewhere along the way, getting Evasion, a boost to all saves, Wis to AC in addition to Dex and Int (from Iaijutsu Master) and Improved Initiative to help enter Iaijutsu Master, as well as Weapon Finesse for that Quickrazor. Add in Unorthodox Flurry (also from Dragon Magazine) in that emptied feat slot to get Decisive Strikes with the quickrazor (that is not RAW but completely RAI AFAICT), or a feycrafted katana. Now you can almost entirely dump Strength.

[AvatarVecna]

Indeed. Luckily we're playing with the houserule that "once a class skill, always a class skill" and the DM allowed for Aereni Focus even though we're not in Eberron. This makes things easier.

Oh yeah, that makes things much simpler. Now a single level of Factotum is as good as a level of Human Paragon in regards to Iaijutsu Focus - and, since Factotum isn't race-restricted and gets other features besides, is probably better than Human Paragon but for the Will save HP gets.


Also, I don't think there's any restriction to starting as a Paragon class, so the first level could be Human Paragon and automatically grab Adaptive Learning, no?

You could indeed do that, also since this game has the "once a class skill, always" rule, Adaptive Learning isn't too useful. Still, Human Paragon boosts your Will save a bit, which is likely to be pretty low on a martial build like this, so that's a decent reason to take it compared to Factotum 1 (even though a Factotum dip is good for other reasons too).


There's also winning initiative, which is a pretty big one. Then, I also found this handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8741.0) on how to make characters FF. Some very nice things.

Initiative's another good way to get FF; it only works for one round, but if that's all you need for this build, then it'll work. Keep in mind that making only a single attack in the first round with Iaijutsu bonuses means that fights against multiple enemies will see you being a lot less useful to the group.


Indeed, delaying Iaijutsu Master and having no dump stat really hurts.

Yeah, it hurts hard. It's only a couple levels, though, so that's something, and you can probably find ways to skimp on some other abilities. You're certainly gonna run into problems: Str boosts your attack/damage, Dex boosts your initiative, Con fuels your HP, you need at least 13 Int if you want Improved Feint (unless you go Scarlet Corsair and delay things even longer), you need Wis 12 to use Hustle at all, and more if you want bonus PP, and you need Cha for Iaijutsu checks/damage. Frustrating.


I checked the skill tricks and I don't think there's one that does that. There are, however, two Sleight of Hand related tricks that make opponents FF

Yep. I went to check and then edited in all the potentially-relevant skill tricks I found, including the two Sleight Of Hand ones. The downside is, hiding weapons only works for light weapons, and it's either a standard action for no penalty or a free action at -20 (vs the foe's Spot check, which is a skill a number of monsters have well-trained).

What level is this character starting at? It's easier to make a great 5th lvl build if it's garbage at lvl 1-4, generally speaking.

[Doctor Awkward]

Iaijutsu Focus Guide (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8741.0)

[heavyfuel]

You quoted the SRD but edited out the most important part of all this: it says "dice" not damage :smallbiggrin:
The extra damage from charisma is multiplied after adding it to the 9d6.
Thats why I suggested the targeteer variant specifically, since it does exactly what you describe in your first post, one big hit with the focus. It takes the iteratives out to increase the crit chance.

Edit: if you look at the description in rules compendium, it even explicitly states that the extra damage is multiplied.

What the hell? Why did the SRD I got it from didn't have this clause.... Oh, cuz I got from DnDWiki by accident. :smallannoyed:

Someone should burn down their servers already

What page on RC are you referring to? Pg. 40 says pretty much exactly what's DnDwiki

Still, the extra damage is added to dice rolls, which aren't multiplied. While I agree that the damage should be multiplied, if a DM rulled against it I would understand.

Regardless, building around crits is sub optimal, as it only comes online at lv 12 in the least. By then, any important enemy will have some form of fortification, which is almost unbeatable in 3.5

[Doctor Awkward]

Iaijutsu Focus Guide (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8741.0)


Oh someone already linked thread...

Well, on topic.

I've found Iaijtsu focus works very well in E6 games. I played a "samurai" type character build once that used Swordsage levels to pick up both Diamond Mind and Setting Sun maneuvers.

One of my favorite tricks to do was this:

The 3rd level Setting Sun maneuver feigned opening allows you to "fake" an opening at an opponent. When you provoke an attack of opportunity from an opponent, if they miss you, they provoke one from you in return. If they hit you, they provoke one from every ally of yours that currently threatens them.

So what I used to do, generally after I've killed my first opponent and move on to the next one, was ready this maneuver, go up to someone during combat and sheath my weapon in their threatened area. This provokes an attack of opportunity from them, which triggers this maneuver. Then combined with the Mercurial Strike feat out of Dragon Compendium (mentioned earlier) allows me to draw when I take my attack from them and make them flat-footed to trigger Iaijutsu Focus.

[remetagross]

So what I used to do, generally after I've killed my first opponent and move on to the next one, was ready this maneuver, go up to someone during combat and sheath my weapon in their threatened area. This provokes an attack of opportunity from them, which triggers this maneuver. Then combined with the Mercurial Strike feat out of Dragon Compendium (mentioned earlier) allows me to draw when I take my attack from them and make them flat-footed to trigger Iaijutsu Focus.

What a neat trick :smallbiggrin: ToB classes should get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill too...
Maybe a way to expand on that idea at higher levels would be through Crusader, with a pair of Martial Study feats to nab the relevant maneuver. There is Cha synergy and Thicket of Blades to get even more AoOs.

[heavyfuel]

What level is this character starting at? It's easier to make a great 5th lvl build if it's garbage at lvl 1-4, generally speaking.

This specific character is starting at lv 3. I'm willing to have him as a sub-par character up to lv 6



So what I used to do, generally after I've killed my first opponent and move on to the next one, was ready this maneuver, go up to someone during combat and sheath my weapon in their threatened area. This provokes an attack of opportunity from them, which triggers this maneuver. Then combined with the Mercurial Strike feat out of Dragon Compendium (mentioned earlier) allows me to draw when I take my attack from them and make them flat-footed to trigger Iaijutsu Focus.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the AoO is done before the action that provoked it, so by the time they attacked you, your weapon wouldn't have been sheathed, and therefore you wouldn't be able to draw it with mercurial strike

[Thurbane]

Another class that hasn't yet been mentioned with Iaijutsu Focus as a "class skill" (not mentioned in the guide either, I believe), is the Savant from Dragon Compendium. Strictly speaking, fairly inferior to Factotum, though.

[Doctor Awkward]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the AoO is done before the action that provoked it, so by the time they attacked you, your weapon wouldn't have been sheathed, and therefore you wouldn't be able to draw it with mercurial strike

If that were the case then Attacks of Opportunity would be incapable of interrupting spellcasting, since you would be hit before you started casting the spell and therefore wouldn't have to roll a concentration check.

[Soranar]

A soulknife 6 / Monk 1 / something x / kensai 8 / should work


A soulknife can ''draw'' his weapon as a free action after level 5 (and make it disappear just as easily)
a mindblade can be shaped into a katana (or bastard sword which has identical STATs)
With the hidden talent ACF, take dimension hop as a power
With the decisive strike ACF take the flowing blade feat that makes a mind blade a monk weapon (needs DM ruling since technically decisive strike doesn't = flurry of blows)
take the acrobatic backstab skill trick to trigger flat footedness
kensai lets you have ok class features and progress your mind blade faster than a normal soulknife would

So, combat

teleport 10 ft closer to your enemy with dimension hop
use your 5 ft step to tumble into your enemy's square (provoking an acrobatic backstab)
use your full round action to do a decisive strike (which also triggers Iaijutsu focus since your opponent is now flat footed)
let your weapon dissipate
wash and repeat

for extra power points, there's plenty of items and abilities that can grant you more
other skill tricks can also trigger flat footedness
for Iaijutsu focus the only way you can get it is a dip with able learner as a human or aereni focus

finally you can even throw your mind blade if you have to (30 ft increment isn't bad) and it's still a katana

[daremetoidareyo]

killoren with the charming the arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) feat and one of those bows that has a blade attached can use Iajutsu focus on the bowblade and move the governing stat from strength/dex to charisma. Plus they have that smite attack, and it appears to work on ranged attack rolls too, so you can switch it up versatility wise.

[Doctor Awkward]

use your 5 ft step to tumble into your enemy's square (provoking an acrobatic backstab)

Tumbling is done as part of a move action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm)

You cannot use a 5 ft step to make a Tumble check.

[Soranar]

Ok instead of using the 5 ft step last

use the 5 ft step first
use dimension hop to teleport over your enemy
falling is a free action
tumbling through a fall is specifically allowed, battlejump even lets you charge by falling onto someone
use acrobatic backstab to flat foot your opponent

[heavyfuel]

If that were the case then Attacks of Opportunity would be incapable of interrupting spellcasting, since you would be hit before you started casting the spell and therefore wouldn't have to roll a concentration check.

By your logic, you would never attack a foe from running away if you don't have reach. As after they walked they're no longer within your reach.

To quote the Rules of the Game article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041026a) (which unlike Sage Advice, is actual RAW, being on the WotC website and all)


Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability are an exception (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as is moving into a space another creature occupies.



A soulknife 6 / Monk 1 / something x / kensai 8 / should work

A soulknife can ''draw'' his weapon as a free action after level 5

Unfortunately, "draw" with quotes doesn't quite cut it, I'm afraid. (pun intended)


killoren with the charming the arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) feat and one of those bows that has a blade attached can use Iajutsu focus on the bowblade and move the governing stat from strength/dex to charisma. Plus they have that smite attack, and it appears to work on ranged attack rolls too, so you can switch it up versatility wise.

I don't really know which bows with blades you're talking about. Do you know the book they're in?

[daremetoidareyo]

BOW, YUAN-TI SERPENT- SECRETS OF XENDRIK (3.5) - basically a shortsword and longbow in one.

LONGBOW, ELVENCRAFT - RACES OF THE WILD (3.5) - weapon add on that turns bows into clubs/quarterstaffs - no exotic weapon pro required

Hiddenblade and sudden draw are two great skill tricks to consider.

Also flick of the wrist is good too.

[AvatarVecna]

Star Elf
Hit-And-Run Fighter 6/Iaijutsu Master 10

Stats (lvl 1, 32 pb): Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 14/Wis 6/Cha 18
All level bumps go to Cha

Traits: Aggressive/Passionate

Flaws: Shaky/Vulnerable

Skills:

Fighter levels: Climb, Iaijutsu Focus, Jump, Swim
IM levels: Balance/Diplomacy/Iaijutsu Focus/Jump/Sense Motive/Tumble






Lvl
Balance
Climb
Diplomacy
Iaijutsu Focus
Jump
Sense Motive
Swim
Tumble


1
0
4
0
4
4
0
4
0


2
0
5
0
5
5
0
5
0


3
0
6
0
6
6
0
6
0


4
0
7
0
7
7
0
7
0


5
0
8
0
8
8
0
8
0


6
0
9
0
9
9
0
9
0


7
1
9
1
10
10
1
9
1


8
2
9
2
11
11
2
9
2


9
3
9
3
12
12
3
9
3


10
4
9
4
13
13
4
9
4


11
5
9
5
14
14
5
9
5


12
6
9
6
15
15
6
9
6


13
7
9
7
16
16
7
9
7


14
8
9
8
17
17
8
9
8


15
9
9
9
18
18
9
9
9


16
10
9
10
19
19
10
9
10




Feats:

HD 1: Improved Initiative
Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse (retrained to "Force Of Personality" at lvl 7)
Flaw: Aereni Focus (Iaijutsu Focus)
Flaw: Skill Focus (Iaijutsu Focus)
Fighter 2: Quick Draw
HD 3: Item Familiar (max out Iaijutsu Focus bonus ASAP)
Fighter 4: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana
HD 6: Warrior's Instinct
Fighter 6: Weapon Focus (Katana)
HD 9: Improved Critical (Katana)
IM 4: Combat Expertise
HD 12: Improved Feint
HD 15: Surprising Riposte
IM 9: Toughness



Alright, so before looking at what this build can do, let's clear up a couple things: up until he gets Iaijutsu Master's special "Weapon Finesse", you're stuck using a rapier.

Second point of order: other than the weapons mentioned in the previous paragraph, and a "magic katana sheath of unspecified enchantment" that serves as your Item Familiar, I am assuming no items whatsoever. Obviously, this build gets better with items, but the point of this is to show what we're looking at without anything but your sword and sheath.

Third point of order: below, I list IF bonus and average damage for that bonus; for the damage, I'm rounding to the nearest whole die, rather than giving the exact average.



Lvl
Init
IF bonus
Standard Atk vs FF
Crit
DPR
DPR (w/ build changes)


1
+11
+14 (avg +4d6)
+4
18-20/x2
5d6+3 (avg 20.5)
5d6+3 (avg 20.5)


2
+11
+15 (avg +4d6)
+5
18-20/x2
5d6+3 (avg 20.5)
5d6+3 (avg 20.5)


3
+11
+17 (avg +4d6)
+6
18-20/x2
5d6+3 (avg 20.5)
5d6+3 (avg 20.5)


4
+11
+19 (avg +5d6)
+7
18-20/x2
6d6+3 (avg 24)
6d6+11 (avg 32)


5
+11
+21 (avg +5d6)
+8
18-20/x2
6d6+3 (avg 24)
6d6+13 (avg 34)


6
+13
+23 (avg +5d6)
+10
18-20/x2
6d6+3 (avg 24)
6d6+21 (avg 42)


7
+13
+26 (avg +6d6)
+11
19-20/x2
1d10+6d6+3 (avg 29.5)
1d10+7d6+24 (avg 54)


8
+18
+30 (avg +7d6)
+12
19-20/x2
1d10+7d6+3 (avg 33)
1d10+8d6+27 (avg 60.5)


9
+18
+33 (avg +7d6)
+13
17-20/x2
1d10+7d6+3 (avg 33)
1d10+8d6+30 (avg 63.5)


10
+18
+36 (avg +8d6)
+14
17-20/x2
1d10+8d6+3 (avg 36.5)
1d10+9d6+33 (avg 70)


11
+18
+39 (avg +8d6+40)
+15
17-20/x2
1d10+8d6+43 (avg 76.5)
1d10+9d6+81 (avg 118)


12
+18
+41 (avg +8d6+40)
+16
17-20/x2
1d10+8d6+43 (avg 76.5)
1d10+9d6+84 (avg 121)


13
+18
+43 (avg +9d6+45)
+17
17-20/x2
1d10+9d6+48 (avg 85)
1d10+10d6+92 (avg 132.5)


14
+18
+45 (avg +9d6+45)
+18/+18
17-20/x2
2d10+18d6+96 (avg 170)
2d10+20d6+190 (avg 271)


15
+18
+47 (avg +9d6+45)
+19/+19
17-20/x2
2d10+18d6+96 (avg 170)
2d10+20d6+196 (avg 277)


16
+19
+50 (avg +9d6+54)
+20/+20
17-20/x2
2d10+18d6+114 (avg 188)
2d10+20d6+222 (avg 303)




This section is about squeezing a bit more juice out of your feat slots. First, the ones you can get rid of:

EWP (Katana): Katanas in 3.5 are masterwork/magic bastard swords, and those count as martial weapons when wielded two-handed. Depending on how flexible your DM is, they might let this count as proficiency for Weapon Focus, and you don't need to take EWP at all. This will have you stuck wielding your sword two-handed, but that's hardly a huge problem with what else I'm mentioning here.
Force Of Personality: If you have other ways of shoring up your weak will save (visiting the Otyugh Hole, becoming a Necropolitan for undead immunities to lots of mental stuff, a nice item giving you a resistance bonus, etc), you can retrain Weapon Finesse to something else.
Warrior Instinct: This is mostly giving you an initiative bonus; if you've got allies/items boosting that high enough for your liking, you can take some other feat at lvl 6.


Second, new feats you could take instead:

Power Attack: If you have faith in your accuracy (due to bonuses from allies/items), this is a great damage boost, particularly when wielding your katana two-handed.
Leap Attack: This enhances your PA damage bonus, which is fantastic. Only take this if you're taking Power Attack, obviously.
Power Attack - Iaijutsu: Despite the name, this feat has nothing to do with the PA feat above. Rather, when you roll Iaijutsu Focus for bonus damage, you gain an extra d6. I'm pretty sure this would count for Strike From The Void as well, so that's your Cha to damage an additional time at lvl 11 and beyond.


If you make these changes to the aforementioned build (retraining Weapon Finesse to PA-I, taking PA in place of EWP, and taking Leap Attack in place of Warrior Instinct), your damage will look like the second damage column up there (presuming full PA tradoff and enough accuracy that the penalty doesn't matter).

EDIT: Also, if you want IF a bit better at all levels, take Illiterate or Inattentive for another +1 to IF instead of one of the existing traits.

EDIT 2: Also, while some item choices are obvious for this build (magic sword, items boosting Cha and Dex, possibly an item giving a bonus to IF so you can spend your HD 3 feat on something else), there's probably some really cool not super-well-known items that could help this build as well. If anybody has an idea for a really cool item to throw on this build, including potential custom stuff, let me know. :smallsmile:

[heavyfuel]

BOW, YUAN-TI SERPENT- SECRETS OF XENDRIK (3.5) - basically a shortsword and longbow in one.

LONGBOW, ELVENCRAFT - RACES OF THE WILD (3.5) - weapon add on that turns bows into clubs/quarterstaffs - no exotic weapon pro required

Hiddenblade and sudden draw are two great skill tricks to consider.

Also flick of the wrist is good too.


These don't really work by RAW. The feat says you replace your Dex bonus, so Elvencraft bow is out as you use Str bonus to hit with them (neither Club nor Quarterstaff are finessable).

The serpent bow might works. The weapon description calls it a Serpent Blade (blade, not bow) and even specifies they're different weapons and since descriptions take precedence over tables (the table actually calls it a bow). Also, I don't see many DMs allowing it when the RAI clearly is against it, and RAW is dubious

Problem I see with these tricks and Flick of the Wrist is that they require light weapons, and you can't Power Attack with them

[AvatarVecna]

Thoughts on the samurai build I posted? :smallsmile:

[heavyfuel]

Thoughts on the samurai build I posted? :smallsmile:

I saw it and it seems awesome! I was going to reply to you, but it's 2am where I live and I'm only half-awake, so I decided to do it tomorrow hahaha

I'll edit this when I wake up with more detailed thoughts. And there are plenty :smallbiggrin:

[Crake]

Unfortunately not as it's damage dice. Iaijutsu Master at lv 5 adds their Cha bonus to each dice and this weird language makes it unclear whether or not the Cha is multiplied or not

I think it's pretty clearly worded that the charisma is added multiple times, in fact, once for each damage dice, exactly as it says. Stacking an absurd charisma bonus and getting 5 levels in iaijutsu master can rack up the damage super quickly. Hitting 9d6+9*cha modifier, when you have something like +10-15 charisma modifier gets you some pretty incredible damage, packing quite a punch.

If you focus heavily on cha, you can get at least: 18 base, +3-5 from leveling up, +2 from race (maybe? depends on race I suppose, the racial paragon classes help with that), that gets you 24 or so. Then there's either a +6 item, or the spell nixie's grace for +8, which lets you hit 30+ easily, netting you a +10 modifier at least, meaning +90 damage from a 9d6 iaijutsu strike. Add in slippers of battledancing, which let you use charisma for your attack bonus (and which require you to move, meaning no full attack, that fits with the OP's request), then you can basically forgo worrying about strength and dex. Just get a good method of feinting as a swift action and you're all good.

[AvatarVecna]

I think it's pretty clearly worded that the charisma is added multiple times, in fact, once for each damage dice, exactly as it says. Stacking an absurd charisma bonus and getting 5 levels in iaijutsu master can rack up the damage super quickly. Hitting 9d6+9*cha modifier, when you have something like +10-15 charisma modifier gets you some pretty incredible damage, packing quite a punch.

If you focus heavily on cha, you can get at least: 18 base, +3-5 from leveling up, +2 from race (maybe? depends on race I suppose, the racial paragon classes help with that), that gets you 24 or so. Then there's either a +6 item, or the spell nixie's grace for +8, which lets you hit 30+ easily, netting you a +10 modifier at least, meaning +90 damage from a 9d6 iaijutsu strike. Add in slippers of battledancing, which let you use charisma for your attack bonus (and which require you to move, meaning no full attack, that fits with the OP's request), then you can basically forgo worrying about strength and dex. Just get a good method of feinting as a swift action and you're all good.

If I understood things correctly, the debate isn't on whether you add Charisma per die, it's whether the flat bonus of "+[Cha x dice]" attached to the IF bonus dice counts as a flat or as bonus dice damage for crit purposes. My understanding is that, for the same reason Craven would be multiplied, Strike From The Void would be multiplied.

[Grod_The_Giant]

These don't really work by RAW. The feat says you replace your Dex bonus, so Elvencraft bow is out as you use Str bonus to hit with them (neither Club nor Quarterstaff are finessable).

The serpent bow might works. The weapon description calls it a Serpent Blade (blade, not bow) and even specifies they're different weapons and since descriptions take precedence over tables (the table actually calls it a bow). Also, I don't see many DMs allowing it when the RAI clearly is against it, and RAW is dubious

Problem I see with these tricks and Flick of the Wrist is that they require light weapons, and you can't Power Attack with them
You could make them Feycraft. That might work by RAW. Otherwise, maybe Snowflake Wardance would help us be SAD?

[AvatarVecna]

You could make them Feycraft. That might work by RAW. Otherwise, maybe Snowflake Wardance would help us be SAD?

Feycraft light weapons use Dex for attack instead of Str even if you don't have Weapon Finesse, while Feycraft one-handed weapons use Dex for attack instead of Str as long as you possess the feat. However, they reduce your damage by one step, and I don't think they get rid of the "Str to damage" rule, so a penalty there is still bad for now; additionally, they're not really a cheap purchase until lvl 6 or so, and if you're entering IM at lvl 7 that'd be pointless. I got around this a bit with my build with Hit-And-Run Fighter giving me Dex to damage, but I still put Str at 10 to avoid a penalty.

Of course, by the time we get into Iaijutsu Master, we can ditch Weapon Finesse and Feycraft weapons entirely.

[heavyfuel]

snip!

Wow! Pretty impressive build. Some points/questions:

Hit-and-run Fighter hadn't been mentioned, but it combos pretty well with the whole FF thing.

Doesn't Item Familiar make you way too reliant on it? While it's super flavourful and pretty powerful, losing the item means you permanently lose a bunch of skill points and a bunch of XP (assuming you invested, I mean, if you lose the you're screwed either way, might as well go for extra XP). I was thinking your standard issue competence bonus item would be more reliable

Isn't Con 10 and Vulnerable flaw and Aggressive trait a bit too much for a melee character? I know I'm not a front liner, but still. Maybe take some away from Cha to make it Con 12 and Wis 8

Might we go OA Samurai for the first two levels? We lose a feat, but we get Katana proficiency (which is a feat on your list, but, like you said, not a necessary one) some Fort and Will, skill points, and a weapon that breaks WBL a little bit since you sacrifice items at full price rather than half

Reading Surprising Riposte again it seems like the designers (yet again) didn't know what they were doing and put a clause that Uncanny Dodge makes them immune to FF. Still, unless I find a way to feint as a free/swift action, the feat is basically useless, as after I feint them, they're not FF, only Dex Denied. Any way to do this without 5 levels of Invisible Blade? It can work as is with Snap Kick, if I get Improved Unarmed Strike somehow (maybe a monk level?)

Power Attack-Iaijutsu has this clause that it only works on duels, so I'll have to check with the DM. It also doesn't work in tandem with Warrior Instinct (they require different clans) so I guess I'll have to choose.

If we go the Power Attack route, I think a Warblade lv or two is interesting to make use of touch attacks


Anyway, some very nice ideas there! Thanks for posting!

[Bonzai]

A soulknife 6 / Monk 1 / something x / kensai 8 / should work


A soulknife can ''draw'' his weapon as a free action after level 5 (and make it disappear just as easily)
a mindblade can be shaped into a katana (or bastard sword which has identical STATs)
With the hidden talent ACF, take dimension hop as a power
With the decisive strike ACF take the flowing blade feat that makes a mind blade a monk weapon (needs DM ruling since technically decisive strike doesn't = flurry of blows)
take the acrobatic backstab skill trick to trigger flat footedness
kensai lets you have ok class features and progress your mind blade faster than a normal soulknife would

So, combat

teleport 10 ft closer to your enemy with dimension hop
use your 5 ft step to tumble into your enemy's square (provoking an acrobatic backstab)
use your full round action to do a decisive strike (which also triggers Iaijutsu focus since your opponent is now flat footed)
let your weapon dissipate
wash and repeat

for extra power points, there's plenty of items and abilities that can grant you more
other skill tricks can also trigger flat footedness
for Iaijutsu focus the only way you can get it is a dip with able learner as a human or aereni focus

finally you can even throw your mind blade if you have to (30 ft increment isn't bad) and it's still a katana

I've been working on a soulknife Iajutsu build myself, (with DM fiat that manifesting the blade counts as a draw action). I've been deliberating on whether to go with strength or dex as my prime stat. Dex is more feat intensive but reduces MAD.

[BWR]

The traditional way to make it work best it play a pre-4e Kakita bushi so you can use it instead of Kenjutsu for attack rolls (and possibly get a bonus to initiative).
In D&D, make it what it was originally was and the conversion intended to be: a mechanic for formal duels and nothing more.

[Morcleon]

Nah, you still want Quickrazors because they can be sheathed as a free action-- otherwise you run into the "bag o' katanas" problem where you have to keep drawing and dropping weapons if you want to make multiple attacks.


Bag of Katanas is still a problem, but I really dislike the quickrazor for the same fluffy reasons I hate the spiked chain. No harm in keeping it in the discussion for people with no such hatred though :smallbiggrin:

Mercurial Strike, however, is definitely on my list! I'm getting it asap

I will note that neither of these is an issue. Using the Sleight of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) skill, you can "hide" a weapon in its sheathe as a free action. The -20 penalty only applies on hiding it from others, so you don't care if that fails. You can still sheathe the weapon as a free action.

[heavyfuel]

I will note that neither of these is an issue. Using the Sleight of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) skill, you can "hide" a weapon in its sheathe as a free action. The -20 penalty only applies on hiding it from others, so you don't care if that fails. You can still sheathe the weapon as a free action.

That is a very munchkin reading of RAW, especially since anyone with a single rank in SoH would be able to free action sheathe with no drawback.

Also the -20 is not only to spot checks. There are uses with specific DCs you need to beat, and attempting as a free action incurs the penalty.

It would be a fair usage of the skill to sheathe weapons. If we assume a DC 0 Dex check to sheathe something, a DC 20 to sheathe as a free action might be fair, but it's a houserule

[Soranar]

I've been working on a soulknife Iajutsu build myself, (with DM fiat that manifesting the blade counts as a draw action). I've been deliberating on whether to go with strength or dex as my prime stat. Dex is more feat intensive but reduces MAD.

STR all the way. The extra damage alone (from wielding it two handed) is definitely worth it. And if you spend a feat on bastard sword proficiency you qualify for exotic weapon master which you can dip to get 2x str instead of just 1.5 through the uncanny blow ability

[AvatarVecna]

I will note that neither of these is an issue. Using the Sleight of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) skill, you can "hide" a weapon in its sheathe as a free action. The -20 penalty only applies on hiding it from others, so you don't care if that fails. You can still sheathe the weapon as a free action.

1) You can only attempt to hide Light weapons. a Katana sized for you will be one-handed at best, and thus not really viable. You could try something like this with a shortsword, I guess, but that gets away from the classic fluff I think.

2) Regardless of how successful you are in hiding the weapon, it's a standard action to draw it. Quick Draw will let you draw it as a move action, but I've yet to find something that will let you draw it as a swift/free action outside of that Skill Trick letting you draw and attack with a hidden weapon for an AoO, but that only works 1/encounter anyway.

Although this brings up an interesting point: the "Hidden Blade" skill tricks requires you to possess the Quick Draw feat. One of the abilities of the Quick Draw feat is drawing hidden weapons as a move instead of a standard (as previously mentioned), whereas the Hidden Blade skill trick lets you...draw hidden weapons as a move action, and your targets who weren't aware of the weapon are FF against the first attack you make with it this turn. Comparatively, Sudden Strike requires 3 more ranks in SoH, and lets you draw and stab targeting FF as an AoO. If I were DMing, I'd see that one of these abilities was miles better than the other, and I'd probably change Hidden Blade to let you draw a Hidden Weapon as a swift action. Of course, it's still only 1/encounter, but that's fine.

[Doctor Awkward]

Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability are an exception (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as is moving into a space another creature occupies.

Huh. I stand corrected.

And here I was all set to argue the opposite direction: that being able to hit a fleeing creature before it steps out of reach was the exception.

Welp... in that case you can simply sheathe your weapon first and then run through your opponents threatened area in order to provoke. Or ask your DM to house-rule that sheathing a weapon can be done as part of your movement for the round (like drawing it can). OR if he will house-rule an exception into the AoO rules to allow for the trick to function as I described.

As an aside, I want to point out that simply being printed on the official wizard's website isn't enough to be considered RAW (after all, the FAQ is printed there too). That article isn't making new rules, just clarifying existing ones. I know it sounds pedantic but I feel it's an important distinction.



If I understood things correctly, the debate isn't on whether you add Charisma per die, it's whether the flat bonus of "+[Cha x dice]" attached to the IF bonus dice counts as a flat or as bonus dice damage for crit purposes. My understanding is that, for the same reason Craven would be multiplied, Strike From The Void would be multiplied.

Here is my take on both of them:

Craven states that when making a sneak attack you add 1 extra point of damage to your damage roll whenever you make a "Sneak Attack".

Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) explicitly states that "should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied."

Now here's the problem:

The Rules Compendium, pg. 40, goes on to state that "Extra damage above and beyond a weapon's normal damage" is not multiplied when you score a critical hit (it then lists precision damage and the flaming weapon property as examples). This conflicts with the SRD's entry on critical hits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits), which instead states that "Extra damage dice" beyond the normal weapon damage are the only things not multiplied.

Normally, the SRD would be the primary source on this, except that on page 5 of the Rules Compendium under the Introduction it says this:

When a preexisting core book or supplement
differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is
meant to take precedence. If you have a question on how
to play D&D at the table, this book is meant to answer
that question.

:smalleek:

So... yeah.
Per the Rules Compendium, neither the damage from Craven nor the damage from Strike from the Void would be multiplied on a critical hit.

Per the SRD. Craven would work just fine. However, the the charisma damage from Strike from the Void is explicitly added to the bonus dice gained from Iaijutsu Focus, not to the damage roll of the weapon. Both sources are quite clear that damage from bonus dice are not multiplied on a critical hit.



Reading Surprising Riposte again it seems like the designers (yet again) didn't know what they were doing and put a clause that Uncanny Dodge makes them immune to FF. Still, unless I find a way to feint as a free/swift action, the feat is basically useless, as after I feint them, they're not FF, only Dex Denied. Any way to do this without 5 levels of Invisible Blade? It can work as is with Snap Kick, if I get Improved Unarmed Strike somehow (maybe a monk level?)

I wouldn't be overly concerned about authors of splat books trying to rewrite the core rules. As is stated numerous times by the errata, whenever a primary source and a secondary source give conflicting information, the primary source takes precedence. The Player's Handbook is the primary source for the Uncanny Dodge special ability.

Unlike in Pathfinder, where Uncanny Dodge explicitly confers immunity to being flat-footed, 3.5 contains no such clause. Characters with Uncanny Dodge can still be caught flat-footed. They simply retain their Dexterity bonus to AC when they are.

[Doctor Awkward]

Check out the actual relevant part in RC, page 17, multiplying damage. Specifically states you multiply all but the dice.

And in case there's doubt about modifier, from the glossary: "Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll."

Quite so.

And as Strike from the Void clearly states the charisma damage is added to the extra damage dice from Iaijutsu Focus. Which are never multiplied.

[Doctor Awkward]

say charisma 20 [+5]
2d6 iaijutsu, would add +10 from strike.

2d6+10 is the total. as a whole, these are not dice.
2d6 = dice
+10 = modifier

Rules state: do not multiply the 2d6, but do multiply the +10.
What part of this do you feel is not correct?


That part.

Strike from the Void is unlike every other bonus modifier compared to it so far. It explicitly states that your Charisma modifier is added to the damage dice that result from your Iaijutsu Focus checks, and not to your regular weapon damage roll. Unlike Craven, which simply says you roll bonus damage independently of your Sneak Attack dice, the bonus from Strike from the Void is a part of the extra damage dice. It is damage you do not have if the result of your check is less than 10.

Damage from extra dice are never multiplied as part of a critical hit.


...I'm not saying that I don't think it should be multiplied on a critical hit. But it says what it says.

[daremetoidareyo]

aww you guys.

successfully navigating a disagreement.

Halloween Magic!

[Rebel7284]

Item familiar is pretty important if you want to max the skill check as soon as possible. The advice I usually hear is to make it something that's VERY difficult to remove. Something like a graft, Power Link Shard, etc. By the time your enemies can remove a part of your body, losing some skill ranks becomes the least of your concerns.

Also, if flaws are allowed, consider something like:

Some sort of Elf

Hit and Run - Exoticist[DR#310 p.35] - Sneak Attack - Fighter 1 /
Arcane Hunter - Trap Expert - Throwing Style[Dr#326 p.97] - Mystic Ranger [Dr#336 p.105] 4/
Warblade 1/
Iaijutsu Master 5/
Marshal 2/
X 7

Feats:
1. Aereni Focus
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Weapon Focus (Katana)
3. Item Familiar
Throwing Style Ranger: Quick Draw
6. Sword of the Arcane Order
9. Craven
Iajitsu Master Bonus: Free?

- You have both spells and maneuvers to help with making your opponents flat footed and buffs like Wraithstrike available.
- Extra damage from sneak attack and fighter.
- weapon proficiency with 4 exotic weapons (katana, quickrazor, some good ranged weapons)
- Fastest Possible entry into Iajitsu Master

edit: actually, the marshal levels at the end may be redundant if you have item familiar. I did the math and your average check would be 52-53 (55-56 if your bonus feat is skill focus) by then depending on starting charisma. Making it an automatic 50+ is nice, but probably overkill.

[ATHATH]

Would the Low Blow and Improved Low Blow feats be of any use or interest for you?