group help

[dayolen]

Hello everyone, I am a long time player of D&D 3.5 and a long time DM. I have had lots of fun over the years with many different groups, but my current group has me in a bind.

My current group is a very interesting one. I have one player who is experienced, (has rolled a fighter, played a cleric for 3 sessions, and then the rest of her 8 years has been spent playing a rogue) the other 4 are all new and a set of brothers the youngest is 17 (i give him a bit more wiggle room with the problem at hand due to age). SO with that being said, my problem is I am having a hard time keeping order in the group. People reacting to situations out of turn, or outright trying to replay their actions to some how end up in a better situation as i describe it.

I have run new groups before but they were all a bit older, or had a wider base of experienced players to help keep things rolling. I feel bad because due to the chaos i see phones come out and people starting to loose focus. The "Rogue" as i will call them, tries their best to help the other rogue (the new one rolled first and chose a rogue swashbuckler optimization build) with rogue-ish type things but knows little to nothing about anything else.

I have thought about inviting another experienced player to join, but then i feel like there would be too many chefs in the kitchen so to speak. As i have gamed with that person before and he turns into a rules lawyer and just an all around jerk at times about it.

I am very interested in hearing input as this forum is the first place i look for any other advice i usually need on all RPG questions.

[tstewt1921]

This happens in our sessions from time to time and we are a very experienced group, we only have one new person. So what we try to do is when it is out of combat time, the most experienced and person who is trying to lead the party (basically be the face) gives out suggestions on what things the other members should do to get the information they need to do the mission at hand. And then he lets the player new or experienced run with it. Like last night, the player legit misheard the Cleric tell him to go to the Church of Lathander and instead went looking for the House of Lavendar. Which he ended up in a brothel and was quite interesting. What I'm trying to say is you have to be able to give people things to do, and the be like a Dwarven Defender when they commit to doing something and make them see it through so it will cause them to think before they act. Like I had the player blast a Fire Elemental with a Scorching Ray....and after he tried to change what he did and I wouldn't let him. If they screw up, let them know they screwed up, then move on and hope they pay more attention.

[edathompson2]

Hello everyone, I am a long time player of D&D 3.5 and a long time DM. I have had lots of fun over the years with many different groups, but my current group has me in a bind.

My current group is a very interesting one. I have one player who is experienced, (has rolled a fighter, played a cleric for 3 sessions, and then the rest of her 8 years has been spent playing a rogue) the other 4 are all new and a set of brothers the youngest is 17 (i give him a bit more wiggle room with the problem at hand due to age). SO with that being said, my problem is I am having a hard time keeping order in the group. People reacting to situations out of turn, or outright trying to replay their actions to some how end up in a better situation as i describe it.

I have run new groups before but they were all a bit older, or had a wider base of experienced players to help keep things rolling. I feel bad because due to the chaos i see phones come out and people starting to loose focus. The "Rogue" as i will call them, tries their best to help the other rogue (the new one rolled first and chose a rogue swashbuckler optimization build) with rogue-ish type things but knows little to nothing about anything else.

I have thought about inviting another experienced player to join, but then i feel like there would be too many chefs in the kitchen so to speak. As i have gamed with that person before and he turns into a rules lawyer and just an all around jerk at times about it.

I am very interested in hearing input as this forum is the first place i look for any other advice i usually need on all RPG questions.

It's a very hard question to answer without knowing what type of game each player enjoys and your DMing style.

If you could reference the DMG2 and submit those answers, I can provide a more detailed suggestion for how to deal with it.

[Captn_Flounder]

Just a little back ground:

The latest group I just took over DMing was like this. But they are all very new to Pen and Paper RPGs in general. The DM claimed to be experienced at 3.5 but didn't even understand the basics of the system at all. For example, some how they got the impression that you had FIVE actions a turn, and they could be any combination of Free Actions, Move Actions, Standard Actions, or whatever else. They came across the term "Full Round Action" trying to figure out how BAB works and my buddy stopped the game to call me up and ask why you would give up 5 attacks to make 2 attacks, one at a -5 penalty, and why he didn't get this option until level 6.

So I joined as a player but quickly took over and realized just how disfunctional and disorganized everything was. Literally everyone was just making things up. Casters looking at just the names of spells and extrapolating their effects. They didn't even notice the Spell Description section or read anything beyond their chosen class sections in the PHB. Constantly trying to back out of things they said they were doing when things didn't turn out perfect. One conversation literally went:

"As you sit alone at the bar, a man approaches and takes the seat beside you."
"I rolled a 23 for Bluff."
"... What?"
"I rolled a 23 for Bluff. What did I say to him?"

And I learned you just have to be firm and CONSISTENT. Shut it down. Organized chaos is the most fun. But it has to be organized. Let them know there are a things that just won't fly.

My personal pet peeves, stopping the game because you yelled "I cast X!" and not knowing what it does, or the cast time, or if you need to roll a touch attack, or if there is a save. Look up the spell while waiting for your turn or copy/paste them on Notebook! ("Summon Monster lasts less than a minute, you didn't just get a permanent gryphon mount, now sit down!")

Or when your character isn't in the room (or worse, dead), you are quiet! Don't try to backseat DM, don't say "if I was you, I would..." Just wait, enjoy the story, or temporarily excuse yourself from the table.

If they get upset when things don't go right, or try to change the situation as its presented, stop the game, and explain that you're not playing against them. That your goal isn't to kill them. That your commitment is to fun and creative story telling. That sometimes it's more fun to be caught unawares or if you offend the local lord that particular path may be shut off to you. Negative consequences are necessary for negative actions. That you can't win them all and everything won't always go your way. Because if it did, there would be no plot. And sometime things are simply more FUN when everything goes to Hell.

A few phrases to know and use often:

"It doesn't work like that."
"It's not your turn."
"Look it up for your next turn. Alright, who is next on initiative?"
"No."

You should be able to explain why, but not if it stops the game or hinders the enjoyment of others. Or if it's a Spell. You should know that, I got enough to worry about over here.

But on the flipside, reward them when they know their Spells, especially if they use them creatively in a way that still works by RAW. Embrace the chaos as long as everyone does what they do by the rules. To use an old proverb, don't be upset if they climb the tower and trivialize the encounter, just reward it now and remember this for next time don't let them solve two different problems with one solution.

With proper reinforcement, they will change the way they play with time. Trust me, if my group can turn around and go from where they were to where they are now (low optimization, but we gotten to "RAW legal" in about 3 months of weekly play) yours can do it too.

TL;DR Just be CLEAR with what you want from them, reward good behavior and SHUT DOWN bad behavior. Things will work out in time.

[edathompson2]

It's a natural phenomenon for a DM to pit his "skills" against the players. Happens with 90% of DMs I see. It sounds like you have a training wheels game and need some patience to bring them along. Couple of suggestions without knowing anything about the style your players enjoy or your DMing style.

1. Allow time for them to socialize.

2. Set expectations at the beginning of the game. Let the players now how you intend to run the game and what they can do to contribute to a fun game for all.

3. Remove standard XP and replace it with "DM has fun XP". If you aren't having fun, low XP. If you are, high XP.

4. Use props. A microphone for whoever is currently roleplaying. A gold pimp chain for the person to wear that everyone voted was the most helpful for the game. Both in and out of character. Can't be the same person every week.

5. When someone does something you like. REALLY reinforce that behavior in front of the group. Make sure to highlight what they did.

[Captn_Flounder]

Don't stoop to DM vs Players. That way just ensures everybody loses, since the DM effectively loses nothing when he loses and his power is limited only by his imagination. Hell, if the DM was just trying to win, you could drop the beholder and mindflayers on a level 1 party.

The goal is for your players to have fun and try to make the game just challenging enough that they have to pay attention and feel rewarded when they succeed. Too easy and its not worth it to pay attention, too hard and your people will quit on you. If you can nail down their optimization level, personally I aim to have a ~30% chance of a party member dying if they slip up and get caught out of position. Ideally, no one should be dying on an average encounter if they use proper strategy unless luck plays a sizable factor.

[edathompson2]

Don't stoop to DM vs Players. That way just ensures everybody loses, since the DM effectively loses nothing when he loses and his power is limited only by his imagination. Hell, if the DM was just trying to win, you could drop the beholder and mindflayers on a level 1 party.

The goal is for your players to have fun and try to make the game just challenging enough that they have to pay attention and feel rewarded when they succeed. Too easy and its not worth it to pay attention, too hard and your people will quit on you. If you can nail down their optimization level, personally I aim to have a ~30% chance of a party member dying if they slip up and get caught out of position. Ideally, no one should be dying on an average encounter if they use proper strategy unless luck plays a sizable factor.

Captain is spot on. Having fun is the core of what should be achieved. I STRONGLY recommend reading the DMG 2. It's a book that can really assist with what you're dealing with.