What is vertical threaten distance?

[ayvango]

I'd like to use jump skill to jump over the first line and attack on supports. How far should I leap to pass over medium creature. Is 8ft sufficient?

[Ellrin]

I'd like to use jump skill to jump over the first line and attack on supports. How far should I leap to pass over medium creature. Is 8ft sufficient?

6 ft. creature
+ 2 ft. arm
+ 3 ft. blade
= unlikely

For a more rules-based answer, a creature's reach is the same in all three dimensions. For a typical Medium creature using melee attacks without any special natural weapons or a reach weapon, this is 5'. It also takes up a five foot cube, so it can reach up to ten feet above the ground.

[ArendK]

6 ft. creature
+ 2 ft. arm
+ 3 ft. blade
= unlikely

For a more rules-based answer, a creature's reach is the same in all three dimensions. For a typical Medium creature using melee attacks without any special natural weapons or a reach weapon, this is 5'. It also takes up a five foot cube, so it can reach up to ten feet above the ground.

Ellrin has the correct answer. "Tumbling" is best fluffed as the way to "jump" over someone in combat.

[Darrin]

I'd like to use jump skill to jump over the first line and attack on supports. How far should I leap to pass over medium creature. Is 8ft sufficient?

On a long jump, your vertical clearance is 1/4th of the distance of the jump. So to clear a 5' square occupied by a medium creature, you'd have to make a long jump at least 20'-25' long. However, this will likely incur AoOs for moving through threatened squares adjacent to your opponent. Your opponent threatens the squares above him with the same reach that he has with the squares at ground level. Thus, your opponent's threatened area can be seen as a 15' cube with the top 10' above ground. To clear *all* of these threatened squares, assuming the path of the jump is roughly elliptical... you'd need a long jump that's in the neighborhood of... about 45' to 50'.

Equation might look something like:

(x - 2.5)^2/506.25 + y^2/126.56 = 1

[ayvango]

Ellrin has the correct answer. "Tumbling" is best fluffed as the way to "jump" over someone in combat.
4th level character would have troubles beating tumblinb DC. We need to go through 1st line - 25 DC, at full speed - 10 DC, with slightly unfavourable surface +2 DC. He could afford +5 Dex modifier (if the focuses on Dex), +7 ranks in tumble, +2 bonus from some item, cat grace, etc. So with +14 modifier he should beat 37 DC. We need special d20 with 23 on it to accomplish the goal.

Jump used in my strength-oriented build is totally affordable. You need to jump 7.5 ft width above 10 ft high. The standard parabola ballistic that fits well in jump definition give me (0.25*x - 10) - 7.5*7.5/x = 0 equation with 45 as precise solution. 45 is greater than 37 but it could be boosted easily.

I stack lion spirit barbarian, sacrificing speed for pounce, monk with power attack, druid with shaper ACF, cleric of celerity and fate domains. 16 str from rolling, +10 from lolth-touched feral incarnate warforged, +4 from rage, +4 from predator form (summing to 34 which gives +12 modifier). 6 ranks in Jump needed to the flying kick. 50 ft speed from shaper, +10 from celerity, +30 from expeditious retreat cast from cleric domain. The speed gives me 24 bonus. Summing all that I get 42 modifier to jump check and need to beat 45. And in case the roll is failed character still jumps above and only get AoO. Contrary to tumble check where failure is forcing you to stop.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I once had a moron idiot dumbass DM who said that since we were on a 2D battlemap that we had no vertical reach.

[Captn_Flounder]

I once had a moron idiot dumbass DM who said that since we were on a 2D battlemap that we had no vertical reach.

How did Flying work on that 2D mat?

[Necroticplague]

I once had a moron idiot dumbass DM who said that since we were on a 2D battlemap that we had no vertical reach.

How did Flying work on that 2D mat?
I know at least one system that somewhat worked that way (it was a 3.5 derivative Legend). Being [Flying] was just a status condition, and you still moved on the same 2d plane as everyone else. You being out of reach while flying was just represented by you being immune to non-reach melee attacks and [ground] attack, among some other benefits.

[FreddyNoNose]

Ellrin has the correct answer. "Tumbling" is best fluffed as the way to "jump" over someone in combat.

Sounds reasonable...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How did Flying work on that 2D mat?Oh, enemies got along just fine. He didn't like the PCs gaining extra movement modes. Said it wasn't "realistic."

He wasn't a very good DM. Or a smart one.

[MilleniaAntares]

For a typical Medium creature using melee attacks without any special natural weapons or a reach weapon, this is 5'. It also takes up a five foot cube, so it can reach up to ten feet above the ground.
A medium creature would typically be 4-8 feet tall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), so if they're on the lower end of things they're essentially a 5x5x5 ft cube.

However, "tall" medium creatures above 5 ft tall are essentially 5x5x10 ft cuboids, so they can reach up to 15 ft above the ground without reach, and up to 20 ft with reach. If they're "long" medium creatures, then they're 5x10x5 ft cuboids, and thus can only reach up to 10 ft above without reach.

Otherwise, I agree with you!

[Necroticplague]

A medium creature would typically be 4-8 feet tall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), so if they're on the lower end of things they're essentially a 5x5x5 ft cube.

However, "tall" medium creatures above 5 ft tall are essentially 5x5x10 ft cuboids, so they can reach up to 15 ft above the ground without reach, and up to 20 ft with reach. If they're "long" medium creatures, then they're 5x10x5 ft cuboids, and thus can only reach up to 10 ft above without reach.

Otherwise, I agree with you!

That may have been the case under 3.0, but spaces are standardized in 3.5. A Medium creatures is always a 5x5x5 foot cube, at least for mechanical purposes. That's why statblocks only list one number under 'space', since it's the length of all 3 sides of their cube.

[MilleniaAntares]

That may have been the case under 3.0, but spaces are standardized in 3.5. A Medium creatures is always a 5x5x5 foot cube, at least for mechanical purposes. That's why statblocks only list one number under 'space', since it's the length of all 3 sides of their cube.
So height is just fluff? Guess I shouldn't be surprised... :smallconfused:

[ayvango]

So height is just fluff? Guess I shouldn't be surprised...

Not quite. There are rules how high you could reach standing on ground. That is essential part of climbing

[Mordaedil]

The table for jump has a vertical reach section based on height, so I imagine that plus your reach.

[Crake]

4th level character would have troubles beating tumblinb DC. We need to go through 1st line - 25 DC, at full speed - 10 DC, with slightly unfavourable surface +2 DC. He could afford +5 Dex modifier (if the focuses on Dex), +7 ranks in tumble, +2 bonus from some item, cat grace, etc. So with +14 modifier he should beat 37 DC. We need special d20 with 23 on it to accomplish the goal.

Jump used in my strength-oriented build is totally affordable. You need to jump 7.5 ft width above 10 ft high. The standard parabola ballistic that fits well in jump definition give me (0.25*x - 10) - 7.5*7.5/x = 0 equation with 45 as precise solution. 45 is greater than 37 but it could be boosted easily.

I stack lion spirit barbarian, sacrificing speed for pounce, monk with power attack, druid with shaper ACF, cleric of celerity and fate domains. 16 str from rolling, +10 from lolth-touched feral incarnate warforged, +4 from rage, +4 from predator form (summing to 34 which gives +12 modifier). 6 ranks in Jump needed to the flying kick. 50 ft speed from shaper, +10 from celerity, +30 from expeditious retreat cast from cleric domain. The speed gives me 24 bonus. Summing all that I get 42 modifier to jump check and need to beat 45. And in case the roll is failed character still jumps above and only get AoO. Contrary to tumble check where failure is forcing you to stop.

The tumble DC would be much more reasonable if you simply didn't move at full speed. Is there a reason that's absolutely necessary? You could also just drink a potion of expeditious retreat to double your move speed to 60ft, then half it down to 30 again, resulting in a total DC of 27. Remember you can also get a +2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in jump, and picking up a masterwork tumbling tool for 50gp, that would get you 5 dex, 7 ranks, 2 masterwork item, 2 synergy, and 2 cat's grace, netting you a total bonus of +18 vs DC27, pretty reasonable chance of success right there.

[ayvango]

The table for jump has a vertical reach section based on height, so I imagine that plus your reach.
In horizontal case reach is counted from shoulders, not stretched arms. But vertical height shows how far could stretched arms reach. So it is inappropriate to sum it with weapon reach. It is correct from point of geometry but is impractical in combat. The same goes for horizontal threaten range. Foil user could easily attack 10ft performing lunge. But it is the single movement that has outstanding reach and could be used effectively only in rare conditions. While 5ft is reach in average.