The Vitalist and You; A Request of Aid and Advice

[Miko_Kira]

So I've been pondering the Vitalist and I am seriously requesting aid on this. I've got a few questions involving the archetypes, and I've gotta get this all sorted out by Tuesday, if I can. I'm devising a good-aligned Vitalist with the life leech and sadist archetypes. He, currently, is Elan and I've sorted out a few of the details, giving him the reconstruction alt-racial trait, because it's already a boon. That said, here's my build followed by my questions on this subject.

Elan Vitalist Mender (Life Leech/Sadist) 4
Str 8 Int 12
Dex 14 Wis 19
Con 16 Cha 10

Feats;
1- Psionic Talent, Expanded Collective
2- Unwilling Participant
3- Expanded Knowledge (Expansion)

That's as far as I've gotten on the build because that's the level I'm at right now. I'm not sure if I should continue with expanded knowledge, pick up psicrystals, or find another path but I'm really interested in how this character will fare with the rest of the group. And now for my questions.

1- Are the combined archetypes worth it?
2- The Sadist archetype replaces my 'knacks'; What does it mean by that? Do I lose all my knacks, class knacks, or method knacks?
3- Is Unwilling Participant considered mind-affecting under RAW? (Definitely a GM question)
4- Some people were recommending that I grab up 'nukes' with Expanded Knowledge. What qualifies as a 'nuke' for a Vitalist?
5- Would it behoove me to pursue psicrystals given my limitations, or should I bypass the idea? (The Vigor+Share Pain combo)

[Psyren]

While the rules don't stop you from being a good-aligned sadist, I find the combination a bit questionable.



1- Are the combined archetypes worth it?

Yes, in fact pretty much the only time I'd use Sadist would be with Life Leech. You need Unwilling Participant to make the Sadist any good, and while you don't need the Life Leech archetype to take that feat, they make it much better so there's no reason not to.



2- The Sadist archetype replaces my 'knacks'; What does it mean by that? Do I lose all my knacks, class knacks, or method knacks?

You lose all of them. The bonus PP are worth it generally (since you can spend them on more powerful things), provided you are routinely shoving enemies into your collective unwillingly.



3- Is Unwilling Participant considered mind-affecting under RAW? (Definitely a GM question)

It is not, just as the collective itself is not. Your target needs a Wis score (as normal for collectives) but that's about the only restriction.



4- Some people were recommending that I grab up 'nukes' with Expanded Knowledge. What qualifies as a 'nuke' for a Vitalist?

No idea, you should probably ask whoever said that. The only universal recommendation that I would make for every Vitalist is Astral Construct, because placing one in your collective makes them formidable indeed, and they are almost always useful (a valuable quality for a class with as limited a repertoire as yours.)



5- Would it behoove me to pursue psicrystals given my limitations, or should I bypass the idea? (The Vigor+Share Pain combo)

Psicrystals are useful even without that combo; they can watch over you while you sleep, enable cheap long-distance communication, help you with skills/initiative, and other things. As for the combo itself, you can use it with a dorje or power stone early on if you don't have the powers to spare.

[Miko_Kira]

He's not technically a 'sadist'. I want him to be a sociopath, questing to understand and obtain emotions. He's made a set of rules to follow so that he does not inadvertently get himself lynched or ostracized. Namely, a revised version of Isaac Asimov's rules of robotics.

I have limited options, so I can continue the path I'm going, pick up Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) next level and Psicrystal Affinity after that. From there I can alternate Improved Psicrystal and Expanded Knowledge (utility powers) for the rest of the build, sound good?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so i played a vitalist. Here are my thoughts

Vigor is your friend. You can stretch it really far with temp hp per pp. You can use your damage for healing ability to launder temp hp into real hp. This is how you heal hp.

Collapse is a great power, use it on squishy mages with high willsaves that are hard to pull into your collective. It can be augmented into "target cannot fight" save or lose levels.

You have problems healing some conditions. Specifically blindness came up and i couldn't find a power to fix it.

You want to invest in being able to recover your psi focus quickly as you can pull people into your collective as a move action. This will l e t you start the drain life train on the first round, and keep it going as you spend you move actions to recover and spend your psi focus to pull enemies into your collective. Start with the big dumb fighters, as they have low willsaves and lots of hp to steal.

[Miko_Kira]

Doesn't Restore Extremity work against blindness/deafness? It restores the damaged or missing body parts, and eyes and ears are technically parts of your body.

[Fouredged Sword]

Doesn't Restore Extremity work against blindness/deafness? It restores the damaged or missing body parts, and eyes and ears are technically parts of your body.

Maybe. The problem was a blindness spell, so not specifically damaged eyes, just an inability to see. Ask your dm.

[Psyren]

As a Life Leech, OP can simply move the blindness to an enemy in the collective as early as level 1 4. For more traditional Vitalists, you want Network Power so you can share personal buffs like Synesthete.

[Manyasone]

Also, don't forget that while you indeed have a limited power repertoire you can change it everyday to your liking. Get rid off unused lower level powers and replace with higher ones. Or make tailored lists

[Miko_Kira]

As a Life Leech, OP can simply move the blindness to an enemy in the collective as early as level 1 4. For more traditional Vitalists, you want Network Power so you can share personal buffs like Synesthete.

Blindness/Deafness has a permanent duration. So would Transfer Ailment still work? It's magical yes, but the last line of the ability says, "This ability can only be used to transfer temporary conditions. For example, a life leech could not transfer blindness from a creature that has somehow lost its eyes permanently." Does that mean I can't move Blindness/Deafness, or is it specific to non-magical blindness and/or deafness?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Blindness/Deafness has a permanent duration. So no matter how long it's been it's still a magical effect. So Restore Extremity would be for the situations in which your eyes or ears have been removed or destroyed in a non-magical fashion. I hope I understand that correctly. Thank you for that information Psyren!

Restore Extremity would work on magically-induced Blindness/Deafness if the magic worked by damaging the organs. Blindness/Deafness doesn't specify so its 'ask GM' territory.

[Miko_Kira]

Sorry MesiDoomstalker, I had just edited my post. I'm bringing up the last two lines of Transfer Ailment, which only allow me to move temporary conditions. The last line says that permanent conditions cannot be transferred and blindness/deafness is has a permanent duration. It could specify non-magical blindness/deafness, but it could also cover all versions.

[Psyren]

Blindness/Deafness has a permanent duration. So would Transfer Ailment still work? It's magical yes, but the last line of the ability says, "This ability can only be used to transfer temporary conditions. For example, a life leech could not transfer blindness from a creature that has somehow lost its eyes permanently." Does that mean I can't move Blindness/Deafness, or is it specific to non-magical blindness and/or deafness?

Oh did you mean blindness from the spell? Just dispel it, problem solved.

[Miko_Kira]

So here's a question about Collective Healing. In the description it states, "The type of healing (positive energy, negative energy, construct repair, etc.) is unchanged from the original source for determining who or what can be healed." Does this mean my ally could use a cure mod, or lay on hands, and I can transfer that positive energy to an undead in my collective, for harm?

[Psyren]

Depends on the specific heal you're transmitting. Some just heal or do damage automatically (e.g. the Cure spells) depending on who they affect. Others the user has to choose which mode they're using when they activate it (e.g. Lay on Hands and Channel Energy) and the ability will only heal or do damage, not both.

[Miko_Kira]

Alright, so RAW;
1: Any networked power that I manifest on a member of the collective, does not allow an initial saving throw, although successive saves are allowed.
2: The Vitalist can ignore any immunities, spell/power resistance, and damage reduction that a collective member has when manifesting powers on said member.
3: Collective Healing does not allow for the redirection of healing to harm an undead member of the collective.

Also, I looked at Unwilling Participant, and I don't believe I can force undead or constructs into my collective. While undead and constructs can be members because they can meet the prerequisite wisdom modifiers, they lack the "living" requirement for Unwilling Participant to affect them. The only reason I bring this up is because the campaign I'm in has undead, they aren't prolific, but there are a good number of them, including ghosts, zombies, skeletons, vampires, and a potential Lich.

[Fouredged Sword]

Even when faced with undead you can still buff to all get out. With 4 party members and 7 pp you create 100 temp hp you can move around with drain health and launder into real hp to heal actual wounds.

[Psyren]

Alright, so RAW;
1: Any networked power that I manifest on a member of the collective, does not allow an initial saving throw, although successive saves are allowed.
2: The Vitalist can ignore any immunities, spell/power resistance, and damage reduction that a collective member has when manifesting powers on said member.

Yes to both. A collective on its own does not allow these, but the Vitalist's Spirit of Many class feature does.



3: Collective Healing does not allow for the redirection of healing to harm an undead member of the collective.

Again, depends on the heal. If you redirected Cure Serious Wounds to an undead participant, they will take damage, because the source would not change.



Also, I looked at Unwilling Participant, and I don't believe I can force undead or constructs into my collective. While undead and constructs can be members because they can meet the prerequisite wisdom modifiers, they lack the "living" requirement for Unwilling Participant to affect them. The only reason I bring this up is because the campaign I'm in has undead, they aren't prolific, but there are a good number of them, including ghosts, zombies, skeletons, vampires, and a potential Lich.

Astral Construct will handle any corporeal undead you come across. (In point of fact, it can fight the incorporeal ones too - it will just do half damage, but it can still hit them.) If you need more anti-undead offense than that, grab Concussion Blast also. Between those two you should have few issues with undead foes.

[Miko_Kira]

Okay guys, sorry to revive a dead thread, but I'm going to save this character for an evil campaign, which will hopefully come up some time down the line. I've also taken some time to study up and I have a question about prestiging into Thrallherd. Should I go for it, or should I grab the Vile Leadership feat?

[Fouredged Sword]

Vitalist reallt benifits from more levels of vitalist. I suggest the feat.

[Miko_Kira]

Vitalist reallt benifits from more levels of vitalist. I suggest the feat.

I noticed, so I thought I'd ask. Though the reason I like the thrallherd is because the prestige class isn't limited by upkeep. It's definitely a later level feat, so if my GM will allow it, because he did allow Thrallherd, I can probably start up a protection business, or something of that nature. Become a super villain, with a loyal-to-the-bone masochistic cohort.

[Fouredged Sword]

I noticed, so I thought I'd ask. Though the reason I like the thrallherd is because the prestige class isn't limited by upkeep. It's definitely a later level feat, so if my GM will allow it, because he did allow Thrallherd, I can probably start up a protection business, or something of that nature. Become a super villain, with a loyal-to-the-bone masochistic cohort.

Any reaaon not to just pick up expanded knowledge for dominate and mind control you some disposable meat?

[Miko_Kira]

Any reason not to just pick up expanded knowledge for dominate and mind control you some disposable meat?

Tried that once and apparently when there are conflicting commands, the two casters have to roll opposing charisma checks, whoever wins takes priority. It sucked because I didn't put much into charisma as I was a Psion/Thrallherd. I wasn't expecting a Wizard NPC with a decent Cha. So the Stone Giant that I dominated turned around and began to attack the party. I ended up using Psychic Crush to stop it, when I was trying to save the body for a True Mind Switch. I was 4 levels away, and the group fizzled before I could achieve it. Note; My character was a Blue.

Edit; Also, you have to regularly consult the GM to know the boundaries you can work on with mental manipulation. It's no fun if you can dominate the BBEG and force the character to slowly carve its own heart out.

[Psyren]

Edit; Also, you have to regularly consult the GM to know the boundaries you can work on with mental manipulation. It's no fun if you can dominate the BBEG and force the character to slowly carve its own heart out.

Yeah, that's why they don't actually let you do that.


Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

[Miko_Kira]

Okay, so here's my aim. If I'm going to go Full Vitalist, I'm going to get Expanded Knowledge to add mind control to my repertoire. I could probably gain the Vile Leadership feat too, but with Mind Control, I'll see if my GM lets me truly dominate an NPC. My target would be a character with high constitution. I will treat this character with kindness and respect as I gradually manipulate them into a proper 'cohort'. I'd first identify if the NPC has friends or family.

I'd start with the basics and issue simple orders;
- Continue your daily activities, and do not mention me by name.
- Return to me, every day, whenever you are able.
- Allow me to reapply my mind control, no harm will be brought upon you.
- If you are to encounter my group act as you normally, except that you must avoid hurting me, directly, or indirectly. If it cannot be avoided non-lethal attacks are acceptable.
- In the event of a conflict with my commands and that of your superiors, follow your superiors first, but do not violate the prior commands to the best of your ability.

From there I'd have sessions of BDSM or something similar which would gradually increase until their tolerance and loyalty rivals that of a Zealot of Zon-Kuthon. I would want to gradually brainwash the NPC until the original no longer exists. In the end the whole point is to have a Tank with a massive health pool that actively defends my character to the extent that it would die for me, if necessary. And I won't need to regularly apply Mind Control for the NPC to obey my commands.

Now, I can apply this logic to any NPC the party manages to capture, and I can reiterate the first order. I can add addendums to the first rule that would allow for a plausible escape. So they can't be accused of 'lying'. But I can definitely use Mind Control as a way of spying on enemies, with a spy that they wouldn't easily suspect.

[Psyren]

Well... your first problem is that "act as you would normally" is impossible; no matter how convincingly they behave, detecting that they are being dominated is always only a DC 15 Sense Motive check away, so somebody (either in your party, or an NPC) is going to make that eventually.

Your second problem is that these 5 orders are not enough - you must command every bit of activity you want them to perform save those that are necessary for survival and they will exclude all others that you didn't order. For example, "continue your daily activities and do not mention me by name" doesn't cover stuff they don't do daily, and it doesn't prevent you from being identified or even alluded to in some other way. And I can see any number of ways that a license to attack you non-lethally could go wrong at a critical moment.

Your third problem is that the BDSM/torture/brainwash portion of your plan isn't RAW, so your GM would have to arbitrate how that part plays out. If they're on board, then you're pretty much set and nothing I say will matter, but if they aren't then there's potential for a dozen contrivances that could cause the subject to escape your grip.

Your fourth problem are the "actions against its nature" and the "obviously self-destructive orders" clauses. Nothing you've asked it to do will trip the latter (save perhaps willingly allowing itself to be redominated if it sufficiently fears you, which torture might instill) but any number of the others could trigger a second save, and the GM gets to roll it. No matter how heavily you optimize, a natural 20 will free them.

So, not saying this won't work, but it might be worth an out-of-game conversation to avoid you and your GM ending up in an arms race, especially if your plan is to hide some of the details from your party.

As far as spying on them, remember that it's "not as good as being there yourself" so be aware that you may miss important details.

[Miko_Kira]

Hmm... I want a bodyguard, so I'll study up on all avenues, to find a dedicated bodyguard that'll suit my needs as a pool of HP for healing, when necessary.

[Psyren]

If all you want is a block of semi-expendable HP that can take hits for you, I'd suggest an animal companion or an eidolon; there are several ways to get one.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider a golem. Or posibly the astral construct power. Both are valid targets of your collective and the asteral construct has the benifit of being both disposable HP piles and configurable to solve problems.

[Miko_Kira]

Alright; After a lot of thought I've come up with this build. It's taken me a while to think it all out.

Elan Vitalist (Life Leech/Sadist) 8
Str 8 Int 12
Dex 14 Wis 20
Con 16 Cha 10

1- Psionic Talent, Psicrystal Affinity
2- Unwilling Participant
3- Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct)
5- Psionic Meditation
7- Expanded Knowledge (Expansion)

As I go further, I'll get Network Power at 9th, Psicrystal Containment at 11th, and potentially Advanced Construct, or Expanded Knowledge (Psychic Reformation) at 13th. I'll figure out some manipulative ways to make this character LN straight out of Cheliax.

Apologies for the late post. Any advice you might recommend?

[Fouredged Sword]

I at one point made an Elan TN lifeleech sadist who's whole character arc was he didn't care about good and evil. He just wanted to end death.

See Lich transformations are unsustainable.
The sacrifice and need to be a high level arcane caster made it impractical for mass conversion. Elan transformations are also problematic due to removing the target's memories.

So he wanted to get powerful enough to mindswitch a person's mind with an animal and THEN apply the Elan transformation. He could THEN return the person's mind, memory intact, to their now immortal body.

He dreamed of a world without old age. Old people would simply become Elans.

Anything he had to do in the meantime to get that power was fair game. He didn't set out to be evil, but he WAS fascinated by life and how it can be sustained and ended. Pain experinced by people who are not immortal was transitory. Such a price was one he would pay to save everyone if that is what it took.

---

Advice,

Cushion the Blow and the advanced version is awsome. Turning a 30-60 crit into a 6-12 damage hit is HUGE. The ability spend a swift action each round to make yourself or someone else almost immune to die based HP damage in later levels is crazy.

Network power is kinda meh. You already have most powers you care to network as network powers. The extra cost makes it fairly useless in practice unless you have specific tricks in mind.

[Miko_Kira]

Make Hostile Empathic Transfer a Network Power and use it on your Unwilling Participant. Spirit of Many would remove the power's range and mind-effecting descriptor, bypass Power Resistance, if any, and won't allow a saving throw that HET would normally allow. Though, I do have to expend my focus and an additional 4pp to make it work.

At a minimum you'll be doing 50 damage guaranteed, and you can move that regained health around to your allies, if I'm reading the information correctly.

[Fouredged Sword]

Make Hostile Empathic Transfer a Network Power and use it on your Unwilling Participant. Spirit of Many would remove the power's range and mind-effecting descriptor, bypass Power Resistance, if any, and won't allow a saving throw that HET would normally allow. Though, I do have to expend my focus and an additional 4pp to make it work.

At a minimum you'll be doing 50 damage guaranteed, and you can move that regained health around to your allies, if I'm reading the information correctly.

Nope. "You may only use this feat on powers with a range of personal and a target of you."

There are some specific buffs this is useful for. Few of those buffs are as useful as Cushion The Blow.

[Miko_Kira]

Well dang, the feat itself stops me... Also; Cushion the Blow is a pretty decent feat. I could swap it out with Network Power, I suppose.

[TiaC]

Two things I'd suggest using expansion material.

First, if you take Psicrystal Containment before Psionic Meditation, then you can just take Psicrystal Reservoir from Psionics Augmented: Psicrystals Expanded, which lets your Psicrystal focus itself. It usually beats Psionic Meditation.

Second, if you get a surge crystal at 11th level, the Sadist 11th level ability becomes crazy with Sympathetic Drain from Psionics Augmented: Wilders. It lets you sacrifice any amount of health up to half your max, and deal twice that much to any target within close range with no save to reduce the damage. Being an 11th level sadist, you heal back half of the damage you deal, and end up at the same HP, but you dealt your max HP to a target for only 3PP and the risk of wild surge.

If you don't have access to these, Empathic Feedback is great for an 11th level Sadist. When fully augmented, anyone who hits you and fails the Will save takes full damage from their own attack, while you only take half. Also a great power for Network Power with a solid duration.

[Miko_Kira]

Thanks for pointing out that 3PP Psicrystals Expanded. I'd love to implant my psicrystal, but I'm afraid it'll prevent me from using the share power benefit with it to double up Vigor.

Also; I'm curious where you, TiaC, got that info on Empathic Feedback. spending 13 points to get the full effect would mean that both I and the attacker take the full damage, there doesn't seem to be an augment that halves that.

[TiaC]

Thanks for pointing out that 3PP Psicrystals Expanded. I'd love to implant my psicrystal, but I'm afraid it'll prevent me from using the share power benefit with it to double up Vigor.

Also; I'm curious where you, TiaC, got that info on Empathic Feedback. spending 13 points to get the full effect would mean that both I and the attacker take the full damage, there doesn't seem to be an augment that halves that.

As an 11th level Sadist, when your powers deal damage, you heal for half that damage. Thus, when Empathic Feedback deals them the full damage from the attack, it also heals you back half of that damage. So, you take half damage, they take full.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, do not forget that you ways have collapse as a power known for free as a soulthief. This is an awsome anti-caster spell to throw at low fort save wizards and such who can resist getting pulled into your collective. Augment it so they only get a move action. No casting for THEM.

[Miko_Kira]

As an 11th level Sadist, when your powers deal damage, you heal for half that damage. Thus, when Empathic Feedback deals them the full damage from the attack, it also heals you back half of that damage. So, you take half damage, they take full.

Okay, I get where you got that now! That's part of the Soulthief's Expertise ability which is from the Method, not the Archetype. I somehow got the impression that you were getting it from the Archetype.

[TiaC]

Okay, I get where you got that now! That's part of the Soulthief's Expertise ability which is from the Method, not the Archetype. I somehow got the impression that you were getting it from the Archetype.

Sorry, I always mix up soulthief and sadist.

[Fouredged Sword]

Sorry, I always mix up soulthief and sadist.

Does anyone EVER take these two and not also take the other AND take lifeleech?

I mean, it really seemes each was written with the others in mind.

[Miko_Kira]

Edit-Repost; I'm taking all three aspects. The two archetypes Life Leech and Sadist, and I'm going with the Soulthief method. My conflict is creating astral constructs. They're effectively useless with a number of my abilities that allow me to move HP around, redirect damage, and a few other issues that arise.

Transfer Ailments, Drain Health, and Steal Life only work on creatures with con scores. This would be where I'm mitigating specific debuffs back on enemies, or redirecting it to a stand-around construct that can handle being debilitated for the duration of a fight. Transfer Attack works, but I can't force undead or constructs into my collective. I'd be forcing their creators, and those guys are casters.

I'm also struggling with what powers I need, too. Which powers are vital?
Should I even stick with this build considering the campaign I'm bringing it in to? (Carrion Crown; AKA Frequent Undead Activity)
Do I even need Astral Construct, considering my party is now comprised of 6 other members? Two Rogues, a Warpriest, a Witch, a Bard, and a Ranger, not including my current character.
What is my tactical thought process?
Example; Expend my psionic focus and force enemy into collective with a move action. Drain Health of 21 points and heal someone, if needed, or spend a move to regain psionic focus (if I have Psionic Meditation). And expending focus is huge if I'm going to abuse the Transfer Attack ability.