Drow Paragon+Template SLAs

[Yogibear41]

A half-fiend drow takes a level of Drow Paragon gaining an additional daily use of its "innate" spell like abilities. Does this mean by raw it also gains additional daily uses of its half-fiend SLAs as well since they are innate to its race?

What if the character also had an Aberrant Dragonmark giving it a SLA, would that be considered "innate" as well since it is something coming from the character and not a class or magic item?


(I'm more inclined to believe the first is okay, but the second question is not)

[Thurbane]

That's a very interesting and somewhat sneaky idea, I like it! :smallsmile:


Improved Spell-Like Abilities
At 1st level, a drow paragon gains one additional daily use of each of her innate spell-like abilities.

...as per a recent question I answered, it comes down to what is classed as "innate".


Q273

Does an archmage high arcana ability to change a spell to a spell like ability qualify as "innate spell like ability" for purposes of Supernatural transformation (Savage species)

A 273

This is an often debated issue. "Innate", in regards to SLAs, is never truly defined by RAW. There is no entry for "innate" in the official glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=&alpha=I). Rules Compendium also lacks any real game definition of "innate". Neither of those sources, in the defintion of SLAs, make any dictinction between SLAs granted by class levels or feats, and those granted by race/template.

Some of the fluff text/reqs for various PrCs in Savage Species (Master of Flies, Siren, Sybil) would seem to imply "innate" = racial. In the PHB, "innate" usually seems to apply to racial abilities, such as a Dwarf's Stonecunning, or Gnome's racial bonus to saves against Illusions. However, a Sorcerer's ability to cast spells is also described as "innate".

It's a DMs call, but many argue that SLAs granted by class or feats, rather than race/template, are not truly innate for the purposes of Supernatural Transformation.

TLDR; ask your DM.

It's basically an "ask your DM" scenario, but for my 2 coppers, anything that is granted by race or template should definitely count as innate, IMHO.

[Nifft]

A half-fiend drow takes a level of Drow Paragon gaining an additional daily use of its "innate" spell like abilities. Does this mean by raw it also gains additional daily uses of its half-fiend SLAs as well since they are innate to its race? Yes, I think that would work.

That's quite clever, I hadn't seen it before.


What if the character also had an Aberrant Dragonmark giving it a SLA, would that be considered "innate" as well since it is something coming from the character and not a class or magic item? That seems like a philosophical question about the nature of Dragonmarks.

Are they "innate"? Are they an expression of the Draconic Prophecy, whatever it is?

There are spells which can suppress Dragonmark powers, unlike other SLAs; so I'm going to go with No: Dragonmarks are Different™.

[thorr-kan]

There are spells which can suppress Dragonmark powers, unlike other SLAs; so I'm going to go with No: Dragonmarks are Different™.
But...

Dragonmarks follow you if you're reincarnated as a different race. So, I'd say yes: innate.

[thorr-kan]

Also, completely unrelated, to my previous comment: this thread might have some food for thought:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?467535-Optimizing-a-drow-s-spell-like-abilities

It also references the following thread, which goes into greater details:
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5111.msg143161#msg143161

ETA: Link corrected.

[Nifft]

But...

Dragonmarks follow you if you're reincarnated as a different race. So, I'd say yes: innate.

But real racial SLAs will not follow you if you're reincarnated as a different race.

It looks to me like your example supports Dragonmarks are Different™.

[thorr-kan]

But real racial SLAs will not follow you if you're reincarnated as a different race.

It looks to me like your example supports Dragonmarks are Different™.
Never said they were racial; said they were innate.

Since they follow you, they are innate to your soul/spirit/ka/whatever gets raised. That's *more* innate than a racial SLA.

[Nifft]

Never said they were racial; said they were innate.

Since they follow you, they are innate to your soul/spirit/ka/whatever gets raised. That's *more* innate than a racial SLA.

But they're less innate, because Dark Chaos Shuffle can remove them for a trivial cost.

Dark Chaos Shuffle cannot remove racial SLAs -- only death can remove those.

Dragonmarks are:
- Different; and
- Less permanent.

They come from a Feat. They are not innate.

[Thurbane]

Even though "innate" is never 100% clearly defined in 3E, more often than not it equates to "racial":


Racial bonus
A bonus granted because of the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature.


Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.


Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures.


In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes.


Creatures with psionic powers generally emulate the manifesting ability of a particular psionic class. When such a creature takes levels in that same class, it can stack its innate psionic powers and its class power progression together.


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.


Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels.


It need not have the innate spell-like ability to channel its power through mortals; this spell bestows that ability upon the celestial.

...this doesn't tell the complete story, and I still say it's really a DM call.

[thorr-kan]

Wrong link!

Correct link: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5111.msg143161#msg143161

[ATHATH]

Wrong link!

Another inCorrect link: http://http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5111.msg143161#msg143161
Fixed that for you.