Preferred method of ranged attack for Str-based martial

[Willie the Duck]

So, we've been through the arguments before, and I really do not want to get into another "are Str- or Dex- based martial builds better" debate. Suffice to say, some people are going to want to play a good old fashioned longsword or greataxe or whatever type character. This has some serious implications once you need to switch to ranged attack. Strength based ranged weapons are usually heavier per-shot than arrows or bolts (although hopefully you can carry more as well). The range is lower. And of course drawing each one is usually a item manipulation action, of which you usually only get one per round (a real problem past 5th level, when your extra attacks are a defining class feature).

How do people prefer to handle it?
The ways I can think of include:

going all in (search out magic javelins, take sharpshooter, find ways to make that one attack matter)
pinch hit with Dex (use a longbow, and deal with the lower to-hit and damage/hit)
grab a cantrip (although picking up spell sniper or magic initiate as a feat instead of an ASI in Dex for option #2 is a niche option at best, unless you are a paladin picking up a cha-based spell)
make sure you never need to go ranged (boots of flying, etc.)


Any preferences, and what is good and bad about them?

[PeteNutButter]

Generally when traveling you could carry a javelin or two if you’re shieldless. If a fight breaks out usually you only need to ranged attack on the first round. Having one in hand allows you to toss it, draw one and toss it. Which works for everyone but fighters above level 11. If the fight is melee range already, just drop it and draw your weapon.

By round two you should hopefully be in melee. Flying foes and the like will continue to be a problem and of course any melee character is going to be in trouble against them without the ability to fly themselves.

Using non-str based attacks is pretty MAD.

[Mikal]

I'd say it's all dependent on how the other stats look in relation to Str.

If they're 14 plus, then I'd say it should be considered since the ranged weapon is a backup, as long as you realize that you're likely to miss more often then not.

I wouldn't waste feats on the attack mode- it's secondary for a reason. No reason to throw good money after bad in that situation. You have limited resources. You can use them to make your primary focus even better, or make your admittedly backup situation suck slightly less.


The way I generally do it is as follows.

Main attack style- Str based melee. Feats go to bump this. Always get the best magic item.

Backup attack style- Str based ranged (if in range). No feats. If I get magic items of the type, keep em no one else will really care. Alt. Spellcasting cantrip.

Emergency attack style- Dex based ranged (if I have to make attacks and I can't javelin them or I need to throw out as many attacks as possible and two doesn't cut it). No feats or magic items. Any magic items found go to primary ranged characters.

[Desteplo]

Using axes d6 throw
-3 eldritch knight or 3 thief allows an extra draw
-so does the duel wielder feat
-if using all of them that’s at least 3 consistent attacks of fighter 11

-after lvl 5 that allows for two ranged attacks a turn consistently

-if you have a magic thrown item with eldritch knight 3 you will always have that weapon on you. Either way it ensures ammo even if mundane thrown.

[sithlordnergal]

Generally I snag a level of Wizard or Sorcerer for my ranged needs, and pick up Fire Bolt, Chill Touch, and then either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. That gives me decent ranged attacks that scale with my total level, BB and GFB give me an extra option in melee, and finally Shield and either Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb offer me more protection and another long range attack.

[Aett_Thorn]

Be a Dragonborn for the +2 Str/+1 Cha, and go Bard. For your magical secrets, take the Ranger spells like Lightning Arrow and Conjure Barrage. Then, you only need to throw one per turn, because you're making it count.

[Easy_Lee]

If you're a strength-based character, you should have a respectable score in dexterity or a casting stat. Picking up a bow or a feat-cantrip, if you're worried about range, shouldn't be a problem for anyone besides a paladin or barbarian. And those two classes have additional movement opportunities (mount / increased speed) and shouldn't need to worry as much.

[Mikal]

If you're a strength-based character, you should have a respectable score in dexterity or a casting stat. Picking up a bow or a feat-cantrip, if you're worried about range, shouldn't be a problem for anyone besides a paladin or barbarian. And those two classes have additional movement opportunities (mount / increased speed) and shouldn't need to worry as much.

Why should you assume you'll have a decent dex or casting stat? Just curious.
If I'm going high strength I'm almost always keeping Dex around 10 and wearing heavy armor. The only casting stat I'd give a damn about unless going with a specific build would be Wis, and why waste a feat to get sacred flame when I can do more with javelins in the same range?

[Easy_Lee]

Why should you assume you'll have a decent dex or casting stat? Just curious.
If I'm going high strength I'm almost always keeping Dex around 10 and wearing heavy armor. The only casting stat I'd give a damn about unless going with a specific build would be Wis, and why waste a feat to get sacred flame when I can do more with javelins in the same range?

Because even using standard array you'll end up with a 13 in an attribute that isn't strength or constitution. That attribute has to be dexterity, charisma, intelligence, or wisdom, all of which have ranged attack options you can pick up with a feat.

[Mikal]

Because even using standard array you'll end up with a 13 in an attribute that isn't strength or constitution. That attribute has to be dexterity, charisma, intelligence, or wisdom, all of which have ranged attack options you can pick up with a feat.

Unless you use the standard way of getting stats- rolling.

And I also asked why I should bother with a feat to do something I can do with javelins?

[Easy_Lee]

Unless you use the standard way of getting stats- rolling.

And I also asked why I should bother with a feat to do something I can do with javelins?

Javelins are fine for anyone who isn't a fighter. You shouldn't have too much trouble with drawing. Fighters, especially past 11, ought to branch out. And they have the feats to do it.

[alchahest]

it's hard to quantify anything if rolling because there's no expectation to fit within a norm. How does one make suggestions if there isn't a baseline to base the suggestions on? "Use Javelins" "okay but I rolled an 11 for strength and a 15 for charisma"

[rbstr]

I guess it mostly depends on where my off-stats are and how good they are.
If you've got at least +2 dex I think I'd roll with that. It'll scale with extra attacks ect. I think that would end up better than a cantrip, particularly if you have a longbow.

If you have a decent mental stat (3+) cantrips will typically be better than the javelin once you hit level 5.
Like, magic initiate has a good bit of utility outside of just that attack cantrip you'd get. On a fighter with the extra ASI I'd go for it if you're not doing well with range. On a Barbarian, whose mental stats are probably limited? I wouldn't. On a Paladin with decent CHA...Maybe yeah?

[Easy_Lee]

I guess it mostly depends on where my off-stats are and how good they are.
If you've got at least +2 dex I think I'd roll with that. It'll scale with extra attacks ect. I think that would ends up better than a cantrip, particularly if you have a longbow.

If you have a decent mental stat (3+) cantrips will typically be better than the javelin once you hit level 5.

Exactly. And I haven't seen too many people roll two high stats and have the others be completely terrible. If that happens to you, maybe you should play a caster instead.

[Mikal]

Exactly. And I haven't seen too many people roll two high stats and have the others be completely terrible. If that happens to you, maybe you should play a caster instead.

Why? Str build is perfectly viable with two good stats and the rest crappy/mediocre.

Three decent stats? Put the third in Wis for will saves. But I still wouldn't waste a feat for a cantrip whose range is equal to a javelin that does more damage over all when comparing hits to saves and 2 attacks in the round I use it.

[Easy_Lee]

Why? Str build is perfectly viable with two good stats and the rest crappy/mediocre.

Three decent stats? Put the third in Wis for will saves. But I still wouldn't waste a feat for a cantrip whose range is equal to a javelin that does more damage over all when comparing hits to saves and 2 attacks in the round I use it.

A melee-only, martial-only character who isn't a barbarian is needlessly limited. There's no need for it when so much else is possible.

But do what you want. I won't stop you.

[Citan]

So, we've been through the arguments before, and I really do not want to get into another "are Str- or Dex- based martial builds better" debate. Suffice to say, some people are going to want to play a good old fashioned longsword or greataxe or whatever type character. This has some serious implications once you need to switch to ranged attack. Strength based ranged weapons are usually heavier per-shot than arrows or bolts (although hopefully you can carry more as well). The range is lower. And of course drawing each one is usually a item manipulation action, of which you usually only get one per round (a real problem past 5th level, when your extra attacks are a defining class feature).

How do people prefer to handle it?
The ways I can think of include:

going all in (search out magic javelins, take sharpshooter, find ways to make that one attack matter)
pinch hit with Dex (use a longbow, and deal with the lower to-hit and damage/hit)
grab a cantrip (although picking up spell sniper or magic initiate as a feat instead of an ASI in Dex for option #2 is a niche option at best, unless you are a paladin picking up a cha-based spell)
make sure you never need to go ranged (boots of flying, etc.)


Any preferences, and what is good and bad about them?
My usual pick is the "cantrip way", but that's because I tend to always end with a gish of some kind that will have a minimum of spellcasting anyways.

For theory though, I'd say it mainly depends on your character and party.
Solo character? I'd probably go the cantrip way if he has any decent casting stat, simply because Magic Initiate can give you such and other perks, or Spell Sniper can boost it greatly.
For pure martials, I'd definitely pick Sharpshooter and possibly Dual Wielder depending on how many feats I still have available. Being able to shoot at a decent distance is imperative (flyers, casters, etc).

Character in a party with at least 30% of members having good ranged attacks (Sharpshooter Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock)?
I'll go with either cantrip because I had some built-in spellcasting (AT, EK) or "cope with low DEX": you are not necessarily supposed to shine in every situation, that's what being in a team means.
I'd rather try to check whether I really don't have anything better to do with my action than trying a DEX based attack.

[KorvinStarmast]

it's hard to quantify anything if rolling because there's no expectation to fit within a norm. How does one make suggestions if there isn't a baseline to base the suggestions on? "Use Javelins" "okay but I rolled an 11 for strength and a 15 for charisma"
I think you misunderstand the 5e way of rolling for stats, page 7, basic rules. (Also in PHB).


You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly.
Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper.
Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers.
----
Now take your six numbers and write each number beside one of your character’s six abilities to assign scores to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Afterward, make any changes to your ability scores as a result of your race choice.

The 5e method is not "roll stats in order" so I don't understand your post.

[Puh Laden]

My current character is a paladin 5/fighter 1 who specializes in smiting with a great weapon (DM ruled GWF works-as-written rather than as SA suggests), but when I multiclassed into fighter, I chose the archery style to boost my bonus to hit to match my STR bonus to hit for those rare cases where range matters.

[sithlordnergal]

Unless you use the standard way of getting stats- rolling.

And I also asked why I should bother with a feat to do something I can do with javelins?

Because javelins have a range of 30/120, and once you go above that 30 range you are at disadvantage. Better to have a spell with a flat 120 range to avoid disadvantage. And while this may have just been my experience, I know that most of my battles in Storm King's Thunder were done fully at range with no way to get to the target with melee.

Not to mention javelins have a d6 for damage. Better then a d4, but not by much.

[Unoriginal]

Even with 10 in DEX and focusing on melee, a Fighter should still be somewhat decent with a bow.

Nothing amazing, way inferior to their speciality, but still able to not be irrelevant with it as backup weapon.

[Finieous]

Because javelins have a range of 30/120, and once you go above that 30 range you are at disadvantage. Better to have a spell with a flat 120 range to avoid disadvantage. And while this may have just been my experience, I know that most of my battles in Storm King's Thunder were done fully at range with no way to get to the target with melee.

Not to mention javelins have a d6 for damage. Better then a d4, but not by much.

The problem is, with a casting ability modifier of +2, your attack is still going to suck. It might suck just a bit less than chucking a javelin at disadvantage. With Wis 14 at 11th level, you're probably getting ~7 DPR out of sacred flame. With Str 20 and a javelin at disadvantage you're getting ~4 DPR. (I chose 11th level because the cantrip scales up and the javelin gets nothing.)

Of course, attacking isn't the only thing you can do with your action. You can Dash. You can Dodge. You can Help. Maybe you can cast a 1-action spell. Maybe you have a 1-action class ability or item. Your best option will almost always be to find something else to do. Magic Initiate is a good feat, but I'd say it's never worth picking up a ranged cantrip with a +1 or +2 casting ability modifier to eek out a couple more points of damage in those edge cases where there's literally nothing else for you to do and you're out of short range for the javelin.

[Kane0]

I like to have a bow on hand as long as my dex is 14 or better.
If under the rare circumstance that my dex is horrible i'll just use a couple thrown weapons, pretty much never a cantrip unless I happen to be playing a gish.

[Specter]

You should aim to get a cantrip somehow, even if it's through Magic Initiate. The scaling damage more than makes up for your lowish hit chance; even if you are in javelin range, you'll be dealing 1d8+5 in the end, and at high levels that's much worse than 4d10.

[Lombra]

As a proud barbarian, my ranged weapon of choice is the small goblin that tickles me with his pointy stick.

[Finieous]

You should aim to get a cantrip somehow, even if it's through Magic Initiate. The scaling damage more than makes up for your lowish hit chance; even if you are in javelin range, you'll be dealing 1d8+5 in the end, and at high levels that's much worse than 4d10.

They both stink (your d10 cantrip is doing ~12 DPR at 17th level). One costs no character resources.

[Arte]

The cheapest way I can think of to utilize dex based weapons while still running a Str-based martial class would be to grab magic initiate then use find familiar, grab an owl and have it use the help action.

You are assured advantage which is essentially +5 on the next attack which is nice.

Otherwise if you do not want to waste a feat on magic initiate you could always grab lucky which gives you the same thing 3 times BUT you can select when after the dice is rolled.

If you go halfling you can also re-roll your 1s.

[rbstr]

So, please, if you're going to make an example, make a fair one that indicates you've actually played the game at that high level with a smart party instead of just theorycrafted on forums.

Not so sure you want to be ranting this when your example is impossible given the rules. You can't draw more than one Javelin per turn.

Besides that - why would anyone take sharpshooter if they plan on being mostly a melee fighter? The whole point of the thread is about this being a backup option.

[Citan]

No, you should make a compelling, fun character instead of a set of optimal mechanics with a slightly different funny voice from last time.

At high levels, it's not a piddly 1d8+5, it's 'closes immediately due to the Fly spell / Haste spell / Longstrider / Sorcerer who Dimension Doored them in, pops off an Action Surge, and gets 6 attacks, quite possibly at Advantage due to Faerie Fire / Hold Person / whatever and +10 damage each from Great Weapon Master.'

Or, 'hurls 6 Javelins at 120' with no penalty and +15 damage each from Strength+Sharpshooter, and (+whatever from them being magic or poisoned etc.)'.

So, please, if you're going to make an example, make a fair one that indicates you've actually played the game at that high level with a smart party instead of just theorycrafted on forums.
Well, I don't know how far goes his knowledge of high level game, but I'm pretty sure yours is seriously lacking. Unless you play in heavily modified games of course... :smallbiggrin:

First, there is no way you deal bonus 15 damage when hurling javelins, because by RAW, Sharpshooter's third benefit (-5+10) requires an attack made with a ranged weapon, and not a "ranged weapon attack".

Second, per RAW, there is no way you can hurl 6 javelins in a sustainable way, even with Action Surge, because of item interaction rules.
Per the action economy regarding item interaction you can...
- Start with javelins in both hands (2).
- Use Dual Wielder to draw two other javelins as your free item interaction (4).
- Use a bonus action to draw two others by combining Dual Wielder benefit with multiclass into Thief for "Use an Item as a bonus action" (6).

So, ONCE per short rest, and provided you usually go dual-wielding, when on level 11, you can indeed shoot several javelins, but not even 6, just 4, in a single turn per the following.
a) Start turn with javelins in both hands.
b) Use Attack action: throw two javelins (2 attacks)
c) Free interaction (Dual Wielder): draw two javelins.
d) Throw one javelin (3rd attack from Attack).
e) Bonus action "draw weapons" for another javelin.
f) Action Surge Attack: throw two other javelins
g) Use the last attack for Shove/Grapple/Clean your nose/Pull a major finger.
And you are unarmed until next turn, which starts the sustainable throws with alternate throws.
Turn 1
- Bonus action draw two javelins.
- Attack: throw two javelins.
- Free interaction draw two javelins
- Make the last attack with one javelin.
- Finish turn with one javelin in hand.
Turn 2
- Attack: throw first javelin
- Free interaction draw two javelins
- Attack: the two remaining throws
- Bonus action: draw javelins for OA or use it on something else.
Only a high-level Eldricht Knight could pull something a bit better in case he buffs himselfwith Haste.



Besides that - why would anyone take sharpshooter if they plan on being mostly a melee fighter? The whole point of the thread is about this being a backup option.
Sorry but you are mistaken on the focus of thread: it's precisely of discussing how much importance a STR martial (not necessarily a Fighter too) should give to ranged attacks, and how to achieve that target efficiency.
And STR martial does not necessarily, always mean "GWM Fighter". Even for them though, Sharpshooter may be a great deal. Confer other posts, including my own previous one: if you can't/won't rely on magic and also cannot/don't want to rely on other people to take care of dangerous casters/flyers/any other creature currently not reachable on foot/jump for melee attacks, Sharpshooter may mean a great deal.

Of course, if you craft a character in a campaign that will be primarily in enclosed places (castles/dungeons/caverns) in which fighting areas are usually cramped, 120 feet of range (Sharpshooter javelin) is totally overkill... But then it also means there are many creatures creating half-cover or third-quarter cover if you can't strike into melee for any reason, so Sharpshooter may or not in fact still have enough value or not, matter of taste/teamwork. :)

[D.U.P.A.]

But tell me, why you cannot draw more than 1 javelin per turn, yet you can draw multiple arrows per turn?

[Zalabim]

The problem is, with a casting ability modifier of +2, your attack is still going to suck. It might suck just a bit less than chucking a javelin at disadvantage. With Wis 14 at 11th level, you're probably getting ~7 DPR out of sacred flame. With Str 20 and a javelin at disadvantage you're getting ~4 DPR. (I chose 11th level because the cantrip scales up and the javelin gets nothing.)

Of course, attacking isn't the only thing you can do with your action. You can Dash. You can Dodge. You can Help. Maybe you can cast a 1-action spell. Maybe you have a 1-action class ability or item. Your best option will almost always be to find something else to do. Magic Initiate is a good feat, but I'd say it's never worth picking up a ranged cantrip with a +1 or +2 casting ability modifier to eek out a couple more points of damage in those edge cases where there's literally nothing else for you to do and you're out of short range for the javelin.

The only thing I wanted to add to this is that in a dedicated ranged battle, it's possible for either side to be prone, giving all these ranged attacks disadvantage one way or the other.

[TheUser]

So, we've been through the arguments before, and I really do not want to get into another "are Str- or Dex- based martial builds better" debate. Suffice to say, some people are going to want to play a good old fashioned longsword or greataxe or whatever type character. This has some serious implications once you need to switch to ranged attack. Strength based ranged weapons are usually heavier per-shot than arrows or bolts (although hopefully you can carry more as well). The range is lower. And of course drawing each one is usually a item manipulation action, of which you usually only get one per round (a real problem past 5th level, when your extra attacks are a defining class feature).

How do people prefer to handle it?
The ways I can think of include:

going all in (search out magic javelins, take sharpshooter, find ways to make that one attack matter)
pinch hit with Dex (use a longbow, and deal with the lower to-hit and damage/hit)
grab a cantrip (although picking up spell sniper or magic initiate as a feat instead of an ASI in Dex for option #2 is a niche option at best, unless you are a paladin picking up a cha-based spell)
make sure you never need to go ranged (boots of flying, etc.)


Any preferences, and what is good and bad about them?

This is probably the biggest reason I love the Eldritch Knight. Because not only can you cast that cantrip but you can throw a javelin as a bonus action after level 7 (and subsequently are not gated by being able to only draw one item per turn). They are one of the few characters that can wield a twohander and still attack very well at range.


As a paladin, a 2 level dip in warlock after level 6 is often warranted because Eldritch Blast really covers this glaring deficiency well. If you're feeling extra munchkin you can get to level 3 for Tome and take Shillelagh so you can ignore the requirements for Strength entirely ;)


As a Barbarian you're somewhat up the creek with Ranged options, but that's solved with Allies using Haste or Fly on you. Sometimes you just need to rely on your friends to cover up your weaknesses.

[Snails]

Even with 10 in DEX and focusing on melee, a Fighter should still be somewhat decent with a bow.

Nothing amazing, way inferior to their speciality, but still able to not be irrelevant with it as backup weapon.

This.

A longbow for d8+0 damage and multiple attacks is not terrible at all, in a pinch.

If ranged is really a party weakness, you can ask the DM to allow you to hold a javelin in your primary and 2-3 in you secondary hand, at the cost of foregoing any benefit of a shield. Drop them and draw a real weapon if combat begins close. It is a realistic enough option for a first volley.

[Lombra]

But tell me, why you cannot draw more than 1 javelin per turn, yet you can draw multiple arrows per turn?

The ammunition property

[mephnick]

But tell me, why you cannot draw more than 1 javelin per turn, yet you can draw multiple arrows per turn?

The real answer is: Legolas

[Slipperychicken]

Just talk to your GM about waiving the object-interaction when throwing weapons, then throw javelins. Basically rule that drawing a thrown weapon is included with the action of throwing one, like how ranged ammunition works.

My own GM was quite amenable to the idea. We understand that there isn't a very good reason to screw over throwing in this way. Lore supports throwing multiple weapons per round (how many daggers can one throw in 6 seconds? It's more than one), it doesn't exactly rock the boat balance-wise, and we figure it using the same logic that allows archers to draw arrows without spending an object-interaction.

[Specter]

They both stink (your d10 cantrip is doing ~12 DPR at 17th level). One costs no character resources.

Which is more than the average for any one javelin or thrown axe, so there's that. None of the options are good for an STR martial, but a cantrip is by far the best.


No, you should make a compelling, fun character instead of a set of optimal mechanics with a slightly different funny voice from last time.

At high levels, it's not a piddly 1d8+5, it's 'closes immediately due to the Fly spell / Haste spell / Longstrider / Sorcerer who Dimension Doored them in, pops off an Action Surge, and gets 6 attacks, quite possibly at Advantage due to Faerie Fire / Hold Person / whatever and +10 damage each from Great Weapon Master.'

Or, 'hurls 6 Javelins at 120' with no penalty and +15 damage each from Strength+Sharpshooter, and (+whatever from them being magic or poisoned etc.)'.

So, please, if you're going to make an example, make a fair one that indicates you've actually played the game at that high level with a smart party instead of just theorycrafted on forums.

1) This is an optimization thread. Roleplaying is that way.
2) You can't hurl more than one javelin. It's nice to at least read the thread before posting.
3) Why would you take Sharpshooter on an STR melee character ever?
4) I find it amusing that you think casters have a duty of buffing you instead of dealing with the problem themselves. You sound like the Paladin who never takes a bow with him and cries when the dragon flies away from him (real life tale btw).
5) Drink some tea, it soothes the nerves.

[Easy_Lee]

Any would-be throwers might ask their DM about the following. In real life, people can grab a handful of javelins, knives, or similar, hold them in one hand, and throw them with the other. And it's perfectly possible to carry a few javelins in the hand of the same arm that bears a shield. That might solve the issue of drawing your thrown weapons.

http://www.dbaol.com/images/faces/1404_face.jpg

[ZorroGames]

Even with 10 in DEX and focusing on melee, a Fighter should still be somewhat decent with a bow.

Nothing amazing, way inferior to their speciality, but still able to not be irrelevant with it as backup weapon.

This, usually LCB, is what my ST using Mountain Dwarfs use along with Hand Axe and/or Light Hammer.

That and Dash to close the range..

[Finieous]

They both stink (your d10 cantrip is doing ~12 DPR at 17th level). One costs no character resources.


Which is more than the average for any one javelin or thrown axe, so there's that. None of the options are good for an STR martial, but a cantrip is by far the best.


So, we agree that none of the options are good. You're ignoring both the real cost (e.g. taking a feat) and the opportunity cost (doing something else) in concluding the cantrip is "best." Accounting for the costs, I think it's clearly worse.



3) Why would you take Sharpshooter on an STR melee character ever?


Strength-based EK with War-Bonded dart can make two -5/+10 attacks out to 60 ft. with no penalty for half or three-quarters cover. If he starts with a dart in hand, he can make three -5/+10 attacks with darts at level 11+. With War Magic, he can make one fire bolt attack and one -5/+10 attack with a dart. It's not a bad option at all. Obviously, Strength-based EKs have lots of ranged options, but this one offers great damage return for no expenditure of daily resources.



4) I find it amusing that you think casters have a duty of buffing you instead of dealing with the problem themselves. You sound like the Paladin who never takes a bow with him and cries when the dragon flies away from him (real life tale btw).


I prefer to play with good players, and in my experience, by the time we've reached high level, we've worked out the teamwork thing. This edition really depends on it. I assume casters will buff the martial when that's the best option for the party, and the martial will also make the best use of his action.

I've played campaigns (not one-shots) to 20, 18 and 17, and I've never encountered a situation at high level where the best use of a martial's action is to cast a ranged cantrip for 12 damage. Therefore, in my experience, a martial with a low caster ability modifier should never expend character resources to acquire ranged cantrips. The return isn't worth the investment, and you can only dodge this conclusion if you ignore the costs.

[Citan]

Which is more than the average for any one javelin or thrown axe, so there's that. None of the options are good for an STR martial, but a cantrip is by far the best.



1) This is an optimization thread. Roleplaying is that way.
2) You can't hurl more than one javelin. It's nice to at least read the thread before posting.
3) Why would you take Sharpshooter on an STR melee character ever?
4) I find it amusing that you think casters have a duty of buffing you instead of dealing with the problem themselves. You sound like the Paladin who never takes a bow with him and cries when the dragon flies away from him (real life tale btw).
5) Drink some tea, it soothes the nerves.
2): See my above post, it's not necessarily true. It does require some investment indeed, but not all STR martials are going the GWM way. Of course if you go Sword and Board, then you can't indeed throw more than 1 javelin in a sustainable way.

3) Because, I don't know, there more many more different ways to play a character than the one you personally consider the only existing one?
Most STR martials are built towards melee, which means they need to be at 5-10 feet max to hit (especially GWM ones).

Let's take a few examples of situations in which Sharpshooter may or not be of benefit.

a) Enemies too dangerous to face in melee.
Sometimes, you can reach an enemy but you don't want to because he's too dangerous: Sharpshooter has no big value here, since if you can reach melee range, you can throw a dagger/javelin in normal range. At best it spares you a few feet of speed. Nice boon but not enough to warrant the investment.
So, here, Sharpshooter would usually be a wasted feat. (usually, because, if you have advantage for some reason and Archery or Bless, you may actually instead use darts for the added damage. But that's a very niche case).

b) Creatures too hard to hit by conventional means
Sometimes, you want to target creatures that are too far away for you to reach, and either too far away for normal thrown range or behind some cover that you can't circle around: if you don't have Sharpshooter, you are stuck with choosing another (lesser) tactical choice.
It may be...
- Flying creatures in open air.
- Archers covered by a half-wall, or beyond a chasm that you have no chance to cross with a long jump, or far above from you (so natural half-cover because of steep angle, and impossible to high-jump in one go).
- Casters protected by creatures acting as living shields, or casting/concentrating on dangerous spells from far away. Many annoying spells, whether single-target or area, have a casting range of >60 feet (not accounting for the fact a caster can double back on the same casting turn, and further on later turns). If your ranged Rogue/Sharpshooter pal has been affected by a Blindness/Hold Person/Slow/whatever, you'll be glad to have a go at breaking concentration!
- Creatures engaging your friends in a narrow corridor: no space to move in-between so you have to attack "from behind your friend": even a reach weapon (provided you have one at the ready for any reason) would not be ideal, because you would still suffer from cover malus that your friend is providing the enemy.
- A fight between two groups starting from a significant distance and, for best of worse, you act before most enemies, so you just don't have enough speed to get in range for not only melee attacks, but even ranged ones.
In all those situations, Sharpshooter has a definitive, and BIG, value. Even without being an Eldricht Knight with his cantrip+dart shenanigans as explained by others above.

c) Attacking a different creature without moving position
Sometimes you may want to attack a creature pestering a mid-far friend while you have to keep your position to hold an enemy with Polearm Master + Sentinel, or grappling, or shoving, or whatever: provided you used a reach weapon (10 feet reach) or Crossbow Expert (although I agree it's hard to see a STR character picking that feat ;)), you can fire ranged attacks without the usual disadvantage.
Sharpshooter may or not be of value here depending on the tactical situation.
As for which kind of situation this may be, well, any situation in which you have a "on weapon attack rider" (Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Battlemaster) and have a dispersed battlefield.

Finally, a few other considerations against the cantrip way.

1. Only Eldricht Knights and Arcane Tricksters get ranged cantrips as martials. For AT, it always sucks since not compatible with Sneak Attack.
For EK, it heavily depends on how you built your character: if your character dumped INT between 8 and 12, it will go from "suck hard" (3-10) to "just decent" (11+), even with the combination of War Magic and Eldricht Strike (obviously making the weapon attack as bonus action first)... Because you are then back to the usual range limitation of thrown weapons. So it's either "get close enough to just throw darts in the first place" or "risk wasting your whole action on a big failure".
Of course, if you pumped your INT to 16+ then because of item interaction limitations it's indeed the most efficient choice... Until you take into account the next thing.

As for others, barring the Barbarian who just doesn't want magic in general, using a cantrip instead of attacks goes sometimes or often against their core features: Rangers (Hunter's Mark), Rogues (Sneak Attack), Paladins (smite spell -yeah, it's situational, but two of them are ranged-), Monks (even non Sun Soul end with enough speed to count on an actual range of at least 50 feet for javelins without even Dashing as bonus action. Plus Monks are hungry for ASI/feats. Although admitedly STR Monk are a rare species, I just put them here for the sake of completeness ;)).

If we want to consider "third-martials" (after all, there is the vocable of "third-caster" XD), even those Clerics who get additional damage on a weapon attack and wield heavy armor would prefer using a javelin to Sacred Flame unless Sacred Flame proves superior for a particular enemy (high AC/low DEX enemy, cover, vulnerability to radiant).

2. Very few cantrips go past 60 feet range.
- Chill Touch (120 feet): necrotic (most resisted/immune), all or nothing, one rider situationally great, other one always useful but only on specific targets.
- Eldricht Blast (120 feet): the best, especially in fact for people with low casting stat since it's not "all or nothing".
- Fire Bolt (120 feet): fire (first or second most resisted/immune), all or nothing.
All the other good ones are either 60 feet (Frostbite, Sacred Flame, Ray of Frost...) or even lower (Thorns Whip, 30 feet).

3. You don't get any help in case of cover, nor against very long range enemies...
Unless you ALSO grab Spell Sniper (which means one more feat to grab for any other than Paladin/Ranger/EK/AT, which makes it very costly).
Whereas with Sharpshooter, you get everything built-in in one nice package: cover ignore, long-range disadvantage, and SADness.
Worst case against the most distant enemies, then you can just pick a longbow: you'll suck because of bad DEX, but at least you can TRY to hit them.

Sooo...
Whether to consider 60 feet enough a range is obviously wildly variable from one people to another, one game to another...
But you cannot say that the cantrip is the "always best" solution for a STR martial. For most martials it's a heavy cost (feat) for very variable (to say the least) return on investment. Even for EK that get some for free it may be better or lesser than using thrown weapons, depending on casting stat and level.

[Willie the Duck]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I believe strongly that the original poster has no special privileges towards what "should" go into a thread once they release it into the forum-space, so I haven't contributed much. I just want to say a few things.
1) holy @$%&, are you people unnecessarily rude to each other! I know, I've been here a while, but I am still not used to this. You do know that this thread will very quickly disappear into the dustbin of the archives, and the only long-term effect any of your actions have will be in actually convincing someone else, right? Calling each other names is the quickest way to having your actions have literally no effect whatsoever.
*sorry if this is not appreciated. I have said my peace, and will leave it at that.

2) Any and all advice is appreciated, but advice that assumes various factors (one is playing point buy, one isn't playing point buy, one can play a Eldritch Knight, one will have a specific non-strength attribute, one is playing a GWM fighter) is only going to be useful if one is going to go that route. Despite what OP threads tend to do, I think we all play, at actual tables, plenty of moderately suboptimal builds for flavor reasons but would still like to be able to have a relatively efficient (so, optimized within this suboptimal framework) solution to the need-for-ranged question.

So perhaps answer what you would do if you were something like a paladin who isn't going to do a 1-2 level warlock dip; a champion with a 10 dex and 12 in either int, wis, or cha; a barbarian with a 12 Dex; an eldritch knight who dumped int; or something like that where the answer isn't 100% obvious. An answer to that situation would I think be the most generally useful.

3) Again, I don't think my personal situation is really relevant, but here it is: I am playing Joram, son of Beer, a half-orc Champion 7 with the stats 20/13/18/13/13/13* and the feats HAM and GWM. Next level I could take really useful-for-group-and-campaign reasons like Healer, Inspiring Leader, or Ritual Caster, or I could resolve my ranged combat problem. So I am wondering what would be best a) taking a feat like Spell Sniper or MI, b) upping my Dex and grabbing a bow, or c) sticking with javelins and taking the feats I want.
*Yes, I know how ridiculous a roll of 18,17,13,13,13,13 would be. This is an NPC the DM created that I took over. So it's more he DM pulling numbers out of his butt' than any other form of bizarreness.


Sorry but you are mistaken on the focus of thread: it's precisely of discussing how much importance a STR martial (not necessarily a Fighter too) should give to ranged attacks, and how to achieve that target efficiency.

In effect, yes.

[Mikal]

For your I'd actually consider upping Dex... but only because you can update Wis at the same time, helping with mind control effects as well.

If Wis was actually 14 or just an even number, I'd say stick with Javelins.

I still recommend keeping Javelins for close range but not melee range work since you'll do better with them over a bow with 14 dex.

EDIT: And you are right about the rudeness... I think this subforum as a whole has gotten worse about that... me included, sometimes.

Also, since you're a champ, might as well pick up Archery as a fighting style, though I wouldn't bother necessarily with Sharpshooter. It's still your secondary attack, and there's no need to waste a feat that will make your weaker attack bonus even worse...

[Finieous]

Oh hell, you're only 7th level and you're a champion. Boost Dex (maybe there's a good +Dex half feat), pick up Archery at 10th, pick up Sharpshooter at 12th.

ETA: The only reason I suggest a half feat instead of +Dex/+Wis is that I want you to get Resilient (Wis) at 14th. :smallbiggrin:

[Mikal]

Oh hell, you're only 7th level and you're a champion. Boost Dex (maybe there's a good +Dex half feat), pick up Archery at 10th, pick up Sharpshooter at 12th.

ETA: The only reason I suggest a half feat instead of +Dex/+Wis is that I want you to get Resilient (Wis) at 14th. :smallbiggrin:

Eh, Sharpshooter? Why waste feats on what's a suboptimal and secondary fighting style for him, especially once that will make his weaker attack attribute even worse?
I do agree on putting the second actual fighting style to archery though. Might as well bump that mediocre attack bonus up to "somewhat decent" levels.

[Finieous]

Eh, Sharpshooter? Why waste feats on what's a suboptimal and secondary fighting style for him, especially once that will make his weaker attack attribute even worse?
I do agree on putting the second actual fighting style to archery though. Might as well bump that mediocre attack bonus up to "somewhat decent" levels.

I like switch-hitters. Any feat he takes 12+ is going to be fairly situational, unless he doubles down on melee with something like PAM. With his other racial and class abilities, he can be a very effective ranged attacker. In that situation, I'd probably spend an ASI slot on the single strongest feat in the game. I certainly agree it's not mandatory or anything.

ETA: Examples

13th-level half-orc champion, against AC 18, with Dex 14 and Archery at short range and no cover

With Sharpshooter and -5/+10: ~20 DPR
Without Sharpshooter: ~14 DPR
Cha 14 and Eldritch Blast: ~9 DPR

Then consider situations where the champion has bless or advantage, and where the target has half or three-quarters cover or is at long range...Sharpshooter is a terrific feat and a solid choice for this character.

[Aaron Underhand]

Which is more than the average for any one javelin or thrown axe, so there's that. None of the options are good for an STR martial, but a cantrip is by far the best.



1) This is an optimization thread. Roleplaying is that way.
2) You can't hurl more than one javelin. It's nice to at least read the thread before posting.
3) Why would you take Sharpshooter on an STR melee character ever?
4) I find it amusing that you think casters have a duty of buffing you instead of dealing with the problem themselves. You sound like the Paladin who never takes a bow with him and cries when the dragon flies away from him (real life tale btw).
5) Drink some tea, it soothes the nerves.


Re 3 - especially as a javelin is NOT a missile weapon, so sharpshooter doesn't work RAW

[Finieous]

Re 3 - especially as a javelin is NOT a missile weapon, so sharpshooter doesn't work RAW

The third feature (-5/+10) doesn't work with a javelin. The first two (range and cover) do. All three work with darts.

[Citan]

3) Again, I don't think my personal situation is really relevant, but here it is: I am playing Joram, son of Beer, a half-orc Champion 7 with the stats 20/13/18/13/13/13* and the feats HAM and GWM. Next level I could take really useful-for-group-and-campaign reasons like Healer, Inspiring Leader, or Ritual Caster, or I could resolve my ranged combat problem. So I am wondering what would be best a) taking a feat like Spell Sniper or MI, b) upping my Dex and grabbing a bow, or c) sticking with javelins and taking the feats I want.
*Yes, I know how ridiculous a roll of 18,17,13,13,13,13 would be. This is an NPC the DM created that I took over. So it's more he DM pulling numbers out of his butt' than any other form of bizarreness.

In effect, yes.
Well, I'm glad that I wasn't mistaken in understanding your thread as a "general" one.

Because actually, for your particular situation, your character build does make a difference... See below.


For your I'd actually consider upping Dex... but only because you can update Wis at the same time, helping with mind control effects as well.

If Wis was actually 14 or just an even number, I'd say stick with Javelins.

I still recommend keeping Javelins for close range but not melee range work since you'll do better with them over a bow with 14 dex.

EDIT: And you are right about the rudeness... I think this subforum as a whole has gotten worse about that... me included, sometimes.

Also, since you're a champ, might as well pick up Archery as a fighting style, though I wouldn't bother necessarily with Sharpshooter. It's still your secondary attack, and there's no need to waste a feat that will make your weaker attack bonus even worse...
This... Is something I'd say as viable as Sharpshooter.
It's different in that it's less flexible for occasional attacks, but having Archery and 14 DEX is like having 18 in DEX as far as bow attacks's to-hit goes. So...
- IF you didn't plan on grabbing Resilient: Wisdom somewere and...
- IF you are fine with having a bipolar character (because you it's either melee OR ranged since you'd have to drop/sheathe/draw your weapon each time)...
Then I'd say Mikal's suggestion is the best one.
That way, you won't resolve any occasional need, but for fights in which you have to stick with ranged for several turns, 150 feet range with longbow should be enough (at least for flying creatures and un-covered inaccessible ones).
And you can still pick up Sharpshooter should you find it not enough.

Because you are a Champion, you have no way to apply riders on attacks, so it's probably the best way for you if your experience is that most fights are clearly cut towards melee or ranged (the dual-wielding way would become a chore for you to manage past level 11 unless big investment).
If however your experience is more of an occasional need of ranged attack (like use-cases "still running towards enemies before reaching contact" or "have to divert priorities to attack a caster preparing a spell" or "have to help killing an enemy while tanking another"), since dual-wielding is out anyways because you are a heavy polearm user, then Sharpshooter will be useful, with or without Archery (javelin or darts).


Eh, Sharpshooter? Why waste feats on what's a suboptimal and secondary fighting style for him, especially once that will make his weaker attack attribute even worse?
I do agree on putting the second actual fighting style to archery though. Might as well bump that mediocre attack bonus up to "somewhat decent" levels.


I like switch-hitters.
Then consider situations where the champion has bless or advantage, and where the target has half or three-quarters cover or is at long range...Sharpshooter is a terrific feat and a solid choice for this character.
This. Would be like the best of both worlds. ^^
Of course it is most probably an overkill investment as far as optimization goes, after all, you are supposed to be in a party so you don't have to excel in everything... ^^

But it does fit the Champion in my opinion (great at everything as long as it's weapon based ;)) and since Sharpshooter's no-cover/range benefit works on every ranged attack it can be useful for occasional situations in which just one throw per turn is enough. So for a martial-centric or solo character, hey, why not? :)

I wouldn't do this myself, but that's more because I have a great hard time playing characters devoid of any magical utility so I'd always pick Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate (Minor Illusion \o/ Mold Earth \o/) if I were to play a Champion. ^^


Any would-be throwers might ask their DM about the following. In real life, people can grab a handful of javelins, knives, or similar, hold them in one hand, and throw them with the other. And it's perfectly possible to carry a few javelins in the hand of the same arm that bears a shield. That might solve the issue of drawing your thrown weapons.

http://www.dbaol.com/images/faces/1404_face.jpg
I find this a bit hard to believe...
I mean, I have no problem with the idea of limply bearing your shield while you hold several javelins in the hand of the same arm. Because you don't need that firm a grip when you don't use it (a bit like two-handed weapons that can be held one-handed when not attacking).

But, my view of the game abstraction is that you get the +2 AC because you don't only wield the shield, but you actually drives it towards and against the attacker's weapon, to either direct the strike away or cushion it. Whatever way you goes, it requires a very firm grip from the hand!

So even if indeed the essence of a roleplaying game in a magical heroic-fantasy setting is to take liberties with realism, this would strain me to witness... ^^

EDIT: ok, I just realized that my argument falls flat as far as ranged attacks are concerned: just reducing the area of harmful impact is indeed a protection in itself, even if you don't turn it towards a particular direction (although you could argue that it's strange for someone to have +2 AC when an archer targets him from behind his back -so obviously shield does not cover anything- but well, that's part of the design choices...)

[Specter]

So, we agree that none of the options are good. You're ignoring both the real cost (e.g. taking a feat) and the opportunity cost (doing something else) in concluding the cantrip is "best." Accounting for the costs, I think it's clearly worse.

Strength-based EK with War-Bonded dart can make two -5/+10 attacks out to 60 ft. with no penalty for half or three-quarters cover. If he starts with a dart in hand, he can make three -5/+10 attacks with darts at level 11+. With War Magic, he can make one fire bolt attack and one -5/+10 attack with a dart. It's not a bad option at all. Obviously, Strength-based EKs have lots of ranged options, but this one offers great damage return for no expenditure of daily resources.

I prefer to play with good players, and in my experience, by the time we've reached high level, we've worked out the teamwork thing. This edition really depends on it. I assume casters will buff the martial when that's the best option for the party, and the martial will also make the best use of his action.

I've played campaigns (not one-shots) to 20, 18 and 17, and I've never encountered a situation at high level where the best use of a martial's action is to cast a ranged cantrip for 12 damage. Therefore, in my experience, a martial with a low caster ability modifier should never expend character resources to acquire ranged cantrips. The return isn't worth the investment, and you can only dodge this conclusion if you ignore the costs.

1) What I said was 'you should try to get a cantrip'. As in, if it's not too much of a stretch. Spending feats or whatever is up to you. Don't put words in my mouth.
2) Weapon Bond would only work for the first two thrown weapons you draw out. Plus, -5/+10 doesn't apply to those. It's also ironic that the only STR martial subclass that seems able to throw decently already has cantrips.
3) You're approaching a different premise. This isn't 'should martials be buffed' (which is a yes), it's 'should they expect to be buffed through any hardship', and the answer is a resounding no.
4) Have you found a situation where his best COA is to throw a handaxe instead of that?


2): See my above post, it's not necessarily true. It does require some investment indeed, but not all STR martials are going the GWM way. Of course if you go Sword and Board, then you can't indeed throw more than 1 javelin in a sustainable way.

3) Because, I don't know, there more many more different ways to play a character than the one you personally consider the only existing one?
Most STR martials are built towards melee, which means they need to be at 5-10 feet max to hit (especially GWM ones).

Let's take a few examples of situations in which Sharpshooter may or not be of benefit.

a) Enemies too dangerous to face in melee.
Sometimes, you can reach an enemy but you don't want to because he's too dangerous: Sharpshooter has no big value here, since if you can reach melee range, you can throw a dagger/javelin in normal range. At best it spares you a few feet of speed. Nice boon but not enough to warrant the investment.
So, here, Sharpshooter would usually be a wasted feat. (usually, because, if you have advantage for some reason and Archery or Bless, you may actually instead use darts for the added damage. But that's a very niche case).

b) Creatures too hard to hit by conventional means
Sometimes, you want to target creatures that are too far away for you to reach, and either too far away for normal thrown range or behind some cover that you can't circle around: if you don't have Sharpshooter, you are stuck with choosing another (lesser) tactical choice.
It may be...
- Flying creatures in open air.
- Archers covered by a half-wall, or beyond a chasm that you have no chance to cross with a long jump, or far above from you (so natural half-cover because of steep angle, and impossible to high-jump in one go).
- Casters protected by creatures acting as living shields, or casting/concentrating on dangerous spells from far away. Many annoying spells, whether single-target or area, have a casting range of >60 feet (not accounting for the fact a caster can double back on the same casting turn, and further on later turns). If your ranged Rogue/Sharpshooter pal has been affected by a Blindness/Hold Person/Slow/whatever, you'll be glad to have a go at breaking concentration!
- Creatures engaging your friends in a narrow corridor: no space to move in-between so you have to attack "from behind your friend": even a reach weapon (provided you have one at the ready for any reason) would not be ideal, because you would still suffer from cover malus that your friend is providing the enemy.
- A fight between two groups starting from a significant distance and, for best of worse, you act before most enemies, so you just don't have enough speed to get in range for not only melee attacks, but even ranged ones.
In all those situations, Sharpshooter has a definitive, and BIG, value. Even without being an Eldricht Knight with his cantrip+dart shenanigans as explained by others above.

c) Attacking a different creature without moving position
Sometimes you may want to attack a creature pestering a mid-far friend while you have to keep your position to hold an enemy with Polearm Master + Sentinel, or grappling, or shoving, or whatever: provided you used a reach weapon (10 feet reach) or Crossbow Expert (although I agree it's hard to see a STR character picking that feat ;)), you can fire ranged attacks without the usual disadvantage.
Sharpshooter may or not be of value here depending on the tactical situation.
As for which kind of situation this may be, well, any situation in which you have a "on weapon attack rider" (Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Battlemaster) and have a dispersed battlefield.

Finally, a few other considerations against the cantrip way.

1. Only Eldricht Knights and Arcane Tricksters get ranged cantrips as martials. For AT, it always sucks since not compatible with Sneak Attack.
For EK, it heavily depends on how you built your character: if your character dumped INT between 8 and 12, it will go from "suck hard" (3-10) to "just decent" (11+), even with the combination of War Magic and Eldricht Strike (obviously making the weapon attack as bonus action first)... Because you are then back to the usual range limitation of thrown weapons. So it's either "get close enough to just throw darts in the first place" or "risk wasting your whole action on a big failure".
Of course, if you pumped your INT to 16+ then because of item interaction limitations it's indeed the most efficient choice... Until you take into account the next thing.

As for others, barring the Barbarian who just doesn't want magic in general, using a cantrip instead of attacks goes sometimes or often against their core features: Rangers (Hunter's Mark), Rogues (Sneak Attack), Paladins (smite spell -yeah, it's situational, but two of them are ranged-), Monks (even non Sun Soul end with enough speed to count on an actual range of at least 50 feet for javelins without even Dashing as bonus action. Plus Monks are hungry for ASI/feats. Although admitedly STR Monk are a rare species, I just put them here for the sake of completeness ;)).

If we want to consider "third-martials" (after all, there is the vocable of "third-caster" XD), even those Clerics who get additional damage on a weapon attack and wield heavy armor would prefer using a javelin to Sacred Flame unless Sacred Flame proves superior for a particular enemy (high AC/low DEX enemy, cover, vulnerability to radiant).

2. Very few cantrips go past 60 feet range.
- Chill Touch (120 feet): necrotic (most resisted/immune), all or nothing, one rider situationally great, other one always useful but only on specific targets.
- Eldricht Blast (120 feet): the best, especially in fact for people with low casting stat since it's not "all or nothing".
- Fire Bolt (120 feet): fire (first or second most resisted/immune), all or nothing.
All the other good ones are either 60 feet (Frostbite, Sacred Flame, Ray of Frost...) or even lower (Thorns Whip, 30 feet).

3. You don't get any help in case of cover, nor against very long range enemies...
Unless you ALSO grab Spell Sniper (which means one more feat to grab for any other than Paladin/Ranger/EK/AT, which makes it very costly).
Whereas with Sharpshooter, you get everything built-in in one nice package: cover ignore, long-range disadvantage, and SADness.
Worst case against the most distant enemies, then you can just pick a longbow: you'll suck because of bad DEX, but at least you can TRY to hit them.

Sooo...
Whether to consider 60 feet enough a range is obviously wildly variable from one people to another, one game to another...
But you cannot say that the cantrip is the "always best" solution for a STR martial. For most martials it's a heavy cost (feat) for very variable (to say the least) return on investment. Even for EK that get some for free it may be better or lesser than using thrown weapons, depending on casting stat and level.

Yeah, well, spending an ASI on something you will rarely use, dealing little damage, and without being able to use -5/+10 (1/3 of said feat) is just... meh. No amount of extremely specific scenarios can save it.

Bottom line: Just throw a javelin/cantrip normally and accept the fact that STR martials don't have good ranged offense. That's the price of going full plate/GWM.

[Unoriginal]

Seriously, I haven't done the calculations, but what's wrong with just using a longbow?

You won't be at your best, but it's a backup weapon, it doesn't need to be.

[ZorroGames]

Seriously, I haven't done the calculations, but what's wrong with just using a longbow?

You won't be at your best, but it's a backup weapon, it doesn't need to be.

Nothing IMO. But this may or may not, depending of definition of “optimizing”, be a thread on being good enough over theory crafted best.

[Tanarii]

Based on what my Str-based very-low-Dex players (almost exclusively Fighters, Paladins and Clerics) seem to prefer to do in a single-class-only no-feat campaign, that starts with primarily underground / close range encounters in Tier 1, but then branches out into outdoor / longer range encounters starting in Tier 2:

- advance under available total Cover or Heavily Obscured areas while taking the Dash action, until they can get into thrown weapon range or melee range.
- advance under available less-than-total Cover while taking the Dodge action, until they can get into thrown weapon range or melee range.
- find cover and ready an action to use a thrown weapon when the enemy gets in range.
- use a ranged weapon.
- use cantrips or other magic.
- if in a wide open plain with no cover or obscured areas, and slower movement than an enemy that never needs to come into your range to attack you: Die.

The last is why you don't fight Mongols with Shiny Knights in open plains. (Edit: it's also tongue in cheek. None of the areas in my local campaign area are wide-open plains populated by horse-riding archers.)

(This is roughly in order of preference. Obviously "use cantrips" is a more available option for EKs and Clerics.)

[Citan]

Yeah, well, spending an ASI on something you will rarely use, dealing little damage, and without being able to use -5/+10 (1/3 of said feat) is just... meh. No amount of extremely specific scenarios can save it.

Bottom line: Just throw a javelin/cantrip normally and accept the fact that STR martials don't have good ranged offense. That's the price of going full plate/GWM.
Who said it's something you will rarely use? Who said those scenarios I depicted are extremely specific?

Those may be rare occurences in your games, good for you. Those are pretty common in mine (speaking more largely than D&d here, speaking of roleplaying games that include fights in general, even if 5e is majority of my experience as a as a DM -but not as player-). Especially the cover/distance problem.

That's why I said to stop being egocentrical and saying that cantrips are the best option in all cases. They are not.
Exactly as not all STR martials are necessarily GWM Fighters in full plate.
Exactly as having good ranged options as a GWM may be...
- Totally irrelevant in a large party or a party with a caster that has no problem buffing you with Haste/Fly or other ways to cope with distance (Earthbind, Wind Wall, Darkness etc),
- But essential in small parties or melee-heavy parties, or outdoor-heavy campaigns, or very "dungeonny" quests.

"YMMV" is the only decent statement that can be made here, and that's why OP's topic was interesting: it pushed some brainstorming on how/when to invest in ranged attacks, and when just cope with "bad longbow", to help himself and any other reader evaluate the costs and benefits of each available option for their own context.


Based on what my Str-based very-low-Dex players (almost exclusively Fighters, Paladins and Clerics) seem to prefer to do in a single-class-only no-feat campaign, that starts with primarily underground / close range encounters in Tier 1, but then branches out into outdoor / longer range encounters starting in Tier 2:

- advance under available total Cover or Heavily Obscured areas while taking the Dash action, until they can get into thrown weapon range or melee range.
- advance under available less-than-total Cover while taking the Dodge action, until they can get into thrown weapon range or melee range.
- find cover and ready an action to use a thrown weapon when the enemy gets in range.
- use a ranged weapon.
- use cantrips or other magic.
- if in a wide open plain with no cover or obscured areas, and slower movement than an enemy that never needs to come into your range to attack you: Die.

The last is why you don't fight Mongols with Shiny Knights in open plains. (Edit: it's also tongue in cheek. None of the areas in my local campaign area are wide-open plains populated by horse-riding archers.)

(This is roughly in order of preference. Obviously "use cantrips" is a more available option for EKs and Clerics.)
That's a nice list. Which implicitly stresses the benefit of Sharpshooter on STR martials that don't have "too many attacks" (read: all but Fighters XD), since it allows one to more easily find a place where it can go on the offense while having some cover.

Also a good hint as why Darkness is one of the top twenty of all spells: AFAIR, it's the only spell that can provide a cover AND that can be moved at will. ;)
(I would have loved to see Wind Wall getting a "push the wall 'forward' by X feet as a bonus action" when upcast).

And as to why Haste is a great spell to get when you have a real-strong melee hitter in your party: does not shore up the "flyers" situations or the "big chasm/wall" ones, but can cover most of the other situations (30*2 + Dash=120 feet available to get in range of melee). :)

[Finieous]

1) What I said was 'you should try to get a cantrip'. As in, if it's not too much of a stretch. Spending feats or whatever is up to you. Don't put words in my mouth.


I'm sorry. Which words did I put in your mouth? I quoted you, stated what we agreed on, and then stated what we disagreed on.

In any case, I disagree that this character should "try to get a cantrip," however you define "try." With his racials, class abilities, and ability scores, he's much better off using weapons.



2) Weapon Bond would only work for the first two thrown weapons you draw out. Plus, -5/+10 doesn't apply to those. It's also ironic that the only STR martial subclass that seems able to throw decently already has cantrips.


Ranged combat is secondary, typically only for one turn, and -5/+10 works with darts. As I said, EKs have lots of options for ranged attacks. Even for them, just using a cantrip isn't a good option.



3) You're approaching a different premise. This isn't 'should martials be buffed' (which is a yes), it's 'should they expect to be buffed through any hardship', and the answer is a resounding no.
4) Have you found a situation where his best COA is to throw a handaxe instead of that?


Sure. Dwarven Thrower. Javelin of Lightning. My high-level games have all featured magic items (and those two, specifically).

Anyway, I offered my advice to the OP and showed the math. He's certainly free to "try to get a cantrip" instead if that seems cool.

[Tanarii]

But tell me, why you cannot draw more than 1 javelin per turn, yet you can draw multiple arrows per turn?


Just talk to your GM about waiving the object-interaction when throwing weapons, then throw javelins. Basically rule that drawing a thrown weapon is included with the action of throwing one, like how ranged ammunition works.

My own GM was quite amenable to the idea. We understand that there isn't a very good reason to screw over throwing in this way. Lore supports throwing multiple weapons per round (how many daggers can one throw in 6 seconds? It's more than one), it doesn't exactly rock the boat balance-wise, and we figure it using the same logic that allows archers to draw arrows without spending an object-interaction.Agreed that allowing one object interaction to draw a weapon per attack made is a house-rule worth strongly considering. Possibly with a limit of 2/round, but why not 4 for a level 20 fighter?

My personal instinct would be to nerf ranged attacks by removing the free object interaction from the ammunition property, limiting Bows to 2 attacks per round only on the first round it's loaded, and 1/round after that. And for cross-bow loading property, change it to an interaction, making it every other round. Or as an alternate, allow a player to sacrifice all or maybe half of their movement for an extra interaction to bring the rate of fire back to full 2/round for bows and 1/round for crossbows. But ... that kind of nerfing generally doesn't fly with players. They get upset by it.


That's a nice list. Which implicitly stresses the benefit of Sharpshooter on STR martials that don't have "too many attacks" (read: all but Fighters XD), since it allows one to more easily find a place where it can go on the offense while having some cover.Except I said it was a no-feat campaign.

However, yes, if feats were available I'm sure some of them might consider taking feats to mitigate their weakness, as opposed to enhance their strengths. OTOH if they wanted that, non-EK Fighters and Paladins could put starting ability scores or ASIs as they leveled into Dex already.

Clerics can instead invest in Sacred Flame for 60ft range.

Str-EKs alternatively can invest in Int in combination with any cantrip with ranges of 60ft/120ft. Or they can (also) invest in Evocation ranged attack spells like Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb, possibly without ranged cantrips if they expect to only rarely make ranged attacks, advancing to melee range the rest of the time.


Also a good hint as why Darkness is one of the top twenty of all spells: AFAIR, it's the only spell that can provide a cover AND that can be moved at will. ;)
(I would have loved to see Wind Wall getting a "push the wall 'forward' by X feet as a bonus action" when upcast).Fog Cloud is also popular with my players, despite the not being able to be moved aspect. It's a lower level slot and it's a bigger area, or a much bigger area for the same level spell slot. And it lasts longer, which is mostly relevant in defensive situations. The sticking point is the immobility, but that's also less relevant in defensive situations.


And as to why Haste is a great spell to get when you have a real-strong melee hitter in your party: does not shore up the "flyers" situations or the "big chasm/wall" ones, but can cover most of the other situations (30*2 + Dash=120 feet available to get in range of melee). :)Yeah, and it's timed right at the beginning on Tier 2, which is right when dangerous wilderness adventures start happening a bit more IMC.

[Unoriginal]

Also a good hint as why Darkness is one of the top twenty of all spells: AFAIR, it's the only spell that can provide a cover AND that can be moved at will. ;)

Well, you can also do it with a big cape on a T shaped stick.

[Citan]

Seriously, I haven't done the calculations, but what's wrong with just using a longbow?

You won't be at your best, but it's a backup weapon, it doesn't need to be.
Well, either "nothing", or "not much", or "everything". :)
As said above it depends on many things.

If you are for example a STR one-hander (+ shield, or dual-wielding, or want free hand for casting) melee Ranger, you probably have 14 DEX anyways for medium armor. Putting the cover/distance problems aside, if you stick at "use a longbow when thrown weapons don't cut it", you'll feel fine until you are level 10-12, then start feeling much less useful when using the longbow. But as a Ranger, you also get several spells that can be put to good use when just melee attacks are not the best option. Or you could grab Archery and stick with that.
Anyways, you probably have other useful things to do so you can easily accept that neither ranged nor melee is an option for a turn.

Same with any martial that has 14 DEX really. As long as your party can do fine without you when ranged attacks are needed, you don't have to care about it. :)
Now as soon as you want each try to count, it's a different thing. ^^

Also, specifically for GWM people or S&B people, longbow is a chore (you have to drop your weapon, which implies a small risk of not being able to retrieve it) or impossible (shield ^^).
Specifically for Monks, which won't get great AC unless they really invest in stats, having a way to get good attacks without exposing themselves is important. Usually, Mobile is the best pick for that because you can still use all Monk goodies on that, and Monk has great base speed to boot. But I could perfectly understand a Monk choosing Sharpshooter instead (especially as a Variant Human, or as a Shadow) to ease survival and shore up a class weakness. :)

Then again, things can change much with party tactics: if you always have a Bless active, then 14 DEX should be fine most of the time. If you have a friend casting Faerie Fire or other spell that provides advantage on all attacks regularly, then you don't care (that much) about having a good base to-hit with longbow either. If you have people that can tremendously boost your speed (Phantom Steed, mount Familiar, Haste, Fly), the number of situations which can be answered only with long-range attack should become small enough to not care either.

Then comes the cover/distance thing. Take a sniper Rogue for example: he usually won't want to try the -5+10 thing because the potential benefit is not worth risking his only chance to land Sneak Attack. Sharpshooter may still be a very interesting feat for him, because the ignore cover and long range makes it much easier for him to find a place to Hide between each attack, and not be bothered by creatures (allies/enemies) in line of sight. That may be also true for a melee Ranger or Fighter that likes to switch between frontline and middle-line, or a Valor Bard, or a Nature Cleric...


Well, you can also do it with a big cape on a T shaped stick.
True indeed, but actual efficiency would probably depend much on what you are facing. Messing with a Darkness spell is indeed possible, but usually requires a significant resource cost (Dispel / Daylight to start)...
Depending on your DM, a simple fire-based cantrip or torch or firelit-arrow could be enough to put your cape cover down. Plus you'd need at least one strong people to hold the stick: not a big deal for sure, but it creates a weak point: people can deduce the nature of the cover from its shape, then deduce where to aim to hit the holder (arrows should go through, unless you make a metal-ring cover XD).

I have to admit though, I'd love seeing my players try something like that. Shoud be fun to roleplay. ^^