Psionic archer build (wilder or ardent or psychic warrior?)

[Soranar]

So I'm thinking of making a psionic archer with the following tricks

get expansion (through expanded knowledge or normal class features) to gain more strength damage and more weapon damage from the larger weapon (projectile weapons work with expansion)

use either charming the arrow (fey wilder) or zen archery (ardent, psychic warrior) to offset the DEX penalty from growing in size

use an elvencraft bow to threaten nearby squares (with expansion it's worth it since you get a lot of reach)

maybe use a footbow and fly (through dragonborn of bahamut or raptoran)

my question is

which class do you think is optimal for this?
which powers beyond expansion would help this build

[Nifft]

The natural default would be Psychic Warrior -> Slayer, perhaps with a level of Ranger to start, or a level of Warblade either to start or at level 5 for mobility. PsyWar also gets you a bunch of bonus feats.

Powers you want:
- Expansion
- Offensive Precognition
- Dissolving Weapon (use it on arrows ahead of time)
- Hustle (move + full attack)
- Weapon of Energy

Tactical teleportation is great, so Dimension Swap is a useful power. You're not a front-liner, so it might be as useful to you as it otherwise would be, but it's a still a solid pick.

Can you count on other party members? Can you count on a Cleric or Wizard to cast Greater Magic Weapon for you every day? If not, consider Metaphysical Weapon.

Do you have enough wealth-by-level to ignore the risk of your bow getting Sunder'd? If not, Call Weaponry and Bolt might have value.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Considering that you can stack a bow with its arrows and that getting decent damage with a bow costs a LOT of money, I'd go psychic warrior with the soulbound weapon ACF. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Specialize in an elvencraft longbow, and use call weaponry to put enhancements on all three parts of the weapon (bow and both quarterstaff ends). Then call a bow with the goodies you need on it when your regular bow doesn't quite cut it, and use various arrows to complement it.

Also, strength of my enemy works just fine with a bow, and psionic lion's charge says nothing about melee attacks outside of the required one for the charge itself, so make a full attack with your bow, manifest psionic lion's charge, and whack a nearby enemy with your quarterstaff. Or you can make the charge first and then make a full ranged attack. The power never specifies what order the charge and full attack need to be done in, after all.

[edit] Oh, and make sure to get a bow with a variable Str modifier, like a bow of the wintermoon or a dragonbone bow to make good use of your SoME power, too. No sense in wasting your bonuses, after all. [edit 2] The morphing quality works for this, as well.

[Eldariel]

Ardent, at least in the grand scheme of things. You get easy access to higher level powers, can dip other classes if desired (Ranger 2 is nice) and of course it's trivial to pick up Metaphysical Weapon & Offensive Precognition/Prescience anyways, which you can combine with Schism & Synchronity/Hustle + Linked Power for easy buffing. Obviously you want Temporal Acceleration and some kind of swift action teleportation (the psionic world is full of these). Also, Metamorphosis is of course the big daddy of Expansion, available from Natural World. Add an Outsider race for Arrow Demon, then become a Huge Arrow Demon with Expansion. There's some stuff you can do with Fell Shot (get a Crystal for the extra focus) combined with Ranger Wand for Hunter's Mercy (Ranger dip gives you the ability to use it, just Wand Chamber one); touch attack autocrit can be quite nice, particularly if you pick an arrow with various crit enhancements (remember, enchant individual arrows for special purposes and bow for general use). Don't forget poisons and Psionic Minor Creation - arrows are excellently suited as delivery methods for any delicious poisons you can think of and you can prepoison them and deal with your potential poisoning.

You could consider picking up Perfect Archery [CPsi] and Power Weapon [CPsi] and the other obvious weapon buff stuff if you feel so inclined. Dissolving Weapon [CPsi] works kinda well with arrows if allowed to work though there's a bit of unclarity on if it's usable at all. Of course, very high up there are the usual Fusion/Fission tricks, Assimilate, Affinity Field + underlings (minor Astral Constructs or whatever; Aid Another bots become so much more with this and it can of course break the game into tiny little pieces if you feel so inclined), etc. depending on what you feel like doing.


For mantles:
Time mantle is beyond obvious; incredible all-around.
Natural World is likewise.
Knowledge mantle for Knowledge Devotion if you feel so inclined

As stated above, Creation mantle can be of great interest to you as well as Freedom mantle for the teleportation part. Beyond that, just go with the flow; Ardents get their pick (and don't forget, Dominant Ideal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) can be quite incredible so do pick it up if it's of appropriate power level for your game).
Physical Power has a nice Mantle power and some decent buffs so it might actually be worth picking up.

[Soranar]

Powers you want:

- Expansion

Already on my list

- Offensive Precognition

could become my swift action, worth considering

- Dissolving Weapon (use it on arrows ahead of time)

An ok downtime power but 1 held weapon is not optimal and it costs a power known, not sure about this one on builds with limited power knowns.

- Hustle (move + full attack)

That would save me a lot of trouble to move and full attack.

- Weapon of Energy

Not a great buff for the cost and the duration is quite low. I'll pass on this one.


Tactical teleportation is great, so Dimension Swap is a useful power. You're not a front-liner, so it might be as useful to you as it otherwise would be, but it's a still a solid pick.

-I think I prefer dimension hop simply due to the action and PP cost (1 swift action and 10 ft for 1 PP + 1 ft for 5 more isn't bad)

Can you count on other party members? Can you count on a Cleric or Wizard to cast Greater Magic Weapon for you every day? If not, consider Metaphysical Weapon.

-Oh the duration is nice, this could save me a lot of trouble with a wilder that can augment well out of combat.

Do you have enough wealth-by-level to ignore the risk of your bow getting Sunder'd? If not, Call Weaponry and Bolt might have value.

-Bolt can be replaced by minor creation/fabricate and metaphysical weapon (which gives me more flexilibity out of combat). Call weaponry or soulbound weapon mean I lose a standard action summoning my weapon every time. And it ropes me into playing a psychic warrior for sure + I can't take a mantle. The cost is just too high.

[Soranar]

For a psionic ranged character, I would recommend the ballisteer. Not the most powerful, but quite flavorful and a lot of fun. You can take a level of soulbow and a level of shiba protector for good measure.

from the description I could find it looks like it's using old psionic rules so 3.0 material
it's also restricted to psychic warriors and it loses way too many manifester levels for mediocre abilities

a hard pass

[Soranar]

Also, strength of my enemy works just fine with a bow,

Oh, this is pretty nasty... I like it.

The psionic lion's charge joke would never fly with my DM but this can work for sure. As for call weaponry , like I said I hate losing a standard action to be able to engage combat though I can see the appeal of cutting costs in my WBL.

[Doctor Awkward]

Call Weaponry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm) has a manifesting time of 1 round. Relying on it in combat costs your entire first round of actions.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, this is pretty nasty... I like it.:amused:


The psionic lion's charge joke would never fly with my DM but this can work for sure.:frown:


As for call weaponry , like I said I hate losing a standard action to be able to engage combat though I can see the appeal of cutting costs in my WBL.The Linked Power feat drops this to a swift or even immediate action, depending on what you Link it with. Grip of iron Linked to call weaponry means you've got it as an immediate action; do it right before your turn and you get it immediately.

In fact, any psionic buffer needs Linked Power in their arsenal; it was practically made for it.

[Doctor Awkward]

The Linked Power feat drops this to a swift or even immediate action, depending on what you Link it with. Grip of iron Linked to call weaponry means you've got it as an immediate action; do it right before your turn and you get it immediately.

I don't think Linked Power works that way. Per the glossary, a round is a 6-second unit of game time in which every combatant gets an opportunity to take at least one action. Thus the current round does not end until everyone has acted and you go back to the top of initiative. So any immediate action you take during the current round would cause the Linked Power to not fire until the initiative comes back to you in the subsequent round.

In fact, aside from avoiding potential interruption Linked Call Weaponry offers no real action economy advantage over just manifesting the power normally. No matter the circumstance, you aren't using the called weapon until the start of your second turn.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think Linked Power works that way. Per the glossary, a round is a 6-second unit of game time in which every combatant gets an opportunity to take at least one action. Thus the current round does not end until everyone has acted and you go back to the top of initiative. So any immediate action you take during the current round would cause the Linked Power to not fire until the initiative comes back to you in the subsequent round.Let's say that you have combatants spanning initiative count 4 to initiative count 29, and initiative counts down from 29 all the way down to 1; if you're on intiative count 29 and you manifest grip of iron Linked to call weaponry on initiative count 1, call weaponry goes off at the beginning of your next turn, which is initiative count 29. There isn't anybody between initiative count 1 and initiative count 29, so you immediately get both grip of iron and call weaponry. If, however, something pops up at initiative count -1 that you weren't previously aware of, suddenly you have an interrupt and you have to wait on -1's turn before yours pops up again. Still, if there is no -1, you effectively get the effect immediately, though you lose your swift action on the following turn, which is a pretty hefty cost, given how many psionic effects use swift actions.


In fact, aside from avoiding potential interruption Linked Call Weaponry offers no real action economy advantage over just manifesting the power normally. No matter the circumstance, you aren't using the called weapon until the start of your second turn.Go read Linked Power's text. You can totally use it with an immediate action power; so long as that immediate action takes place right before your turn, you get the effect of the second power immediately.

[Soranar]

Ardent, at least in the grand scheme of things. You get easy access to higher level powers, can dip other classes if desired (Ranger 2 is nice) and of course it's trivial to pick up Metaphysical Weapon & Offensive Precognition/Prescience anyways, which you can combine with Schism & Synchronity/Hustle + Linked Power for easy buffing.

Ok, Ardent is interesting





Obviously you want Temporal Acceleration and some kind of swift action teleportation (the psionic world is full of these). Also, Metamorphosis is of course the big daddy of Expansion, available from Natural World. Add an Outsider race for Arrow Demon, then become a Huge Arrow Demon with Expansion.

For this to work I would need to be an outsider, get metamorphosis, be a manifester level 10 and lose an action to turn into said arrow demon

which gives me

STR 21 and a double attack ability
But I can't really dump STR since I'm stuck without this option for half the game... not sold on this



There's some stuff you can do with Fell Shot (get a Crystal for the extra focus) combined with Ranger Wand for Hunter's Mercy (Ranger dip gives you the ability to use it, just Wand Chamber one); touch attack autocrit can be quite nice, particularly if you pick an arrow with various crit enhancements (remember, enchant individual arrows for special purposes and bow for general use). Don't forget poisons and Psionic Minor Creation - arrows are excellently suited as delivery methods for any delicious poisons you can think of and you can prepoison them and deal with your potential poisoning.

For an ardent the ranger dip is worth thinking about for a free access to rapid shot , letting me dump DEX entirely.
poison is not a huge investment for what you get, I see potential there
an automatic crit can be nice too



You could consider picking up Perfect Archery [CPsi] and Power Weapon [CPsi] and the other obvious weapon buff stuff if you feel so inclined. Dissolving Weapon [CPsi] works kinda well with arrows if allowed to work though there's a bit of unclarity on if it's usable at all. Of course, very high up there are the usual

perfect archery is already covered by the arrow demon trick so if I go for that no need to get both
power weapon specifically says it doesn't work with ranged weapons (only trown) so that's out
I'm still not sure about dissolving weapon


Fusion/Fission tricks, Assimilate, Affinity Field + underlings (minor Astral Constructs or whatever; Aid Another bots become so much more with this and it can of course break the game into tiny little pieces if you feel so inclined), etc. depending on what you feel like doing.

my only issue with an ardent build is getting all of those powers on its list. It's fairly trivial to get them on a psion or a wilder but an ardent just doesn't get much direct access to action economy and pulling all my feats to get them seems counterproductive. I'll have to think about it

[Doctor Awkward]

Go read Linked Power's text. You can totally use it with an immediate action power; so long as that immediate action takes place right before your turn, you get the effect of the second power immediately.

I'm not disputing that it can be linked with an immediate action power. I'm saying (even by the example you provided) that you have no way of benefiting from Call Weaponry until the start of your second round.

Think of it this way:



Round 1
Round 2


Psion
Manifest Call Weaponry
Weapon appears: Pew Pew


Baddie 1
Action
Action


Baddie 2
Action
Action



That's a normal approach.
Here's how it goes with Linked Power:



Round 1
Round 2


Psion
Manifest <Something useful> Linked with Call Weaponry
Weapon appears: Pew Pew


Baddie 1
Action
Action


Baddie 2
Action
Action



So while in this case you don't lose your first round, you still aren't shooting your weapon until the 2nd round in which it appears. Linked Power is clearly the better choice here, but if the goal is to be an "archer" who is shooting a bow in combat as much as possible, well...

Here's how it plays out with an immediate action:



Round 1
Round 2


Psion
Action
Weapon appears: Pew Pew


Baddie 1
Action
Action


Baddie 2
Action
Action




Manifest Immediate Action power Linked with Call Weaponry



I mean, yeah, you've broken the initiative order with your manifesting, but the result is still the same. You spent a turn not shooting, the enemies took an action, and now you have your bow.

Call Weaponry is definitely something you manifest just before combat starts. If you rely on that power to arm yourself and get ambushed, you are losing one round of shooting at minimum.

[ATHATH]

I recommend playing an Athasian Human if LA buyoff is allowed (and even if it isn't, strongly consider playing one anyway).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not disputing that it can be linked with an immediate action power. I'm saying (even by the example you provided) that you have no way of benefiting from Call Weaponry until the start of your second round.

Think of it this way:



Round 1
Round 2


Psion
Manifest Call Weaponry
Weapon appears: Pew Pew


Baddie 1
Action
Action


Baddie 2
Action
Action



That's a normal approach.
Here's how it goes with Linked Power:



Round 1
Round 2


Psion
Manifest <Something useful> Linked with Call Weaponry
Weapon appears: Pew Pew


Baddie 1
Action
Action


Baddie 2
Action
Action



So while in this case you don't lose your first round, you still aren't shooting your weapon until the 2nd round in which it appears. Linked Power is clearly the better choice here, but if the goal is to be an "archer" who is shooting a bow in combat as much as possible, well...

Here's how it plays out with an immediate action:



Round 1
Round 2


Psion
Action
Weapon appears: Pew Pew


Baddie 1
Action
Action


Baddie 2
Action
Action




Manifest Immediate Action power Linked with Call Weaponry



I mean, yeah, you've broken the initiative order with your manifesting, but the result is still the same. You spent a turn not shooting, the enemies took an action, and now you have your bow.

Call Weaponry is definitely something you manifest just before combat starts. If you rely on that power to arm yourself and get ambushed, you are losing one round of shooting at minimum.That's a fair (and accurate) assessment, but you've got access to psionics, which is the best action economy breaker in the game, so cheat. And there are plenty of ways to get an action off, even artificially. Like, for instance, psionic contingency + synchronicity. At least, when you're high enough level to do so. Fun thing is, Linked Power makes psionic contingency happen super-fast, too, so you don't have to spend ten minutes manifesting it. Plus, if you have access to Uncanny Dodge or another way to prevent yourself from being flatfooted (from foresight to Shape Soulmeld), you could always do it before your first turn in the initiative order. You can also manifest it after your surprise round if you get one. It takes a little doing, but it's entirely possible to make it work.

[Eldariel]

For this to work I would need to be an outsider, get metamorphosis, be a manifester level 10 and lose an action to turn into said arrow demon

which gives me

STR 21 and a double attack ability
But I can't really dump STR since I'm stuck without this option for half the game... not sold on this

You don't really need to lose an action; you can Link the Metamorphosis and with swift action transform. Or use Temporal Acceleration or Schism to accomplish it.


perfect archery is already covered by the arrow demon trick so if I go for that no need to get both
power weapon specifically says it doesn't work with ranged weapons (only trown) so that's out
I'm still not sure about dissolving weapon

my only issue with an ardent build is getting all of those powers on its list. It's fairly trivial to get them on a psion or a wilder but an ardent just doesn't get much direct access to action economy and pulling all my feats to get them seems counterproductive. I'll have to think about it

Yeah, Time domain gets some though but you definitely need to modify some mantles and probably use Expanded Knowledge. In the end it comes out pretty well though.