How can a wizard live in perpetuity in the D&D universe?

[FlyingMonkyMan]

So, in LMoP the PC's learned of how the Book of Bowgentle was given to Tsernoth of Iriaebor (necromancer) over 100 years ago. I've seeded a plot and where the characters will (eventually) want to (probably/hopefully) find the Book.

Initially I was thinking what better enemy than a lich...... but then I realized at low levels they will die (and there goes the rest of the campaign). So, I'm trying to think of different ways a wizard might prolong their life. I guess I can just say that the Book was handed down to their offspring. Or maybe some crazy ritual that steals the life force from others? (Like in Pirates of the Caribbean? or Supernatural?)

While I can think of a couple things I'm not entirely sure if they would fit in the established magic of D&D 5E. Or can I just say it does?

[Kuulvheysoon]

An easy way would just be to add the Spellcasting trait to an existing, lower levelled Undead. It could be fun to make a "fake" Corpse Taker (from the Dresden Files series of novels) by adding the spellcasting trait to a (CR 4) Ghost and just have it continually possessing different people.

[Sigreid]

Totally legit, Clone spell or the immortality epic boon from the DMG.

Edited to say you can totally have the book contain a ritual that grants immortality (agelessness) I know it's an epic boon, but it's hardly going to ruin your campaign if the players find a way to not age.

[SiCK_Boy]

Potion of Longevity is an option that can buy you at least 7 to 12 years with no drawback, and possibly more if you want to risk drinking subsequent potions.

Very high level magic (Wish and such) could probably prolong your life expectancy as well, but that is just another issue similar to using a Lich.

Have you considered the simple possibility that Tsernoth is not human, but rather one of the longer-lived races (half-elf, elf, dwarf, etc.)?

Another option is to use a Vampire, but that's still pretty high level (less than a lich, but still...).

[Unoriginal]

The wizard could simply have gone to another plane where time moves differently than in the Material Plane and ended up X number of decades years later.

Or he could have had a Reincarnation spell cast on him, maybe.

[SharkForce]

yeah, at 100 years, there are PHB races that could easily live that long, no problem.

if you want, you could even make him a half-dragon or something, and explain his lifespan with that.

or, as noted, just choose a weaker type of undead. just because he's an undead wizard doesn't mean he needs to be a lich :P

[lunaticfringe]

If you have Volo's slap a Ghast's Claw Attack, Turn Resist, & Undead Traits on an NPC Fey or GOO Lock. Play around with the spells but use Fey's at will Disguise Self. BAM!

Ghoul Sorcerer, Lich for Lowbies.

[KorvinStarmast]

How can a wizard live in perpetuity in the D&D universe?

That very question is why the monster "lich" exists.

You are about 43 years late in the asking. A lean gent named Arcerak would like to have you over to his place for coffee, or tea.

[SharkForce]

How can a wizard live in perpetuity in the D&D universe?

That very question is why the monster "lich" exists.

You are about 43 years late in the asking. A lean gent named Arcerak would like to have you over to his place for coffee, or tea.

he already explained in the OP why a lich isn't an option. he even went so far as to point out that lich was initially what he was thinking, and then decided that would probably be a TPK and thus he needed a different plan.

[RickAllison]

Clone, Reincarnation, and making them a Revenant are all good options. Clone is an especially good option as it is a wizard spell. Note that it is an 8th-level spell, but you can decrease the CR by having primarily utlity spells.

[GreyBlack]

So, in LMoP the PC's learned of how the Book of Bowgentle was given to Tsernoth of Iriaebor (necromancer) over 100 years ago. I've seeded a plot and where the characters will (eventually) want to (probably/hopefully) find the Book.

Initially I was thinking what better enemy than a lich...... but then I realized at low levels they will die (and there goes the rest of the campaign). So, I'm trying to think of different ways a wizard might prolong their life. I guess I can just say that the Book was handed down to their offspring. Or maybe some crazy ritual that steals the life force from others? (Like in Pirates of the Caribbean? or Supernatural?)

While I can think of a couple things I'm not entirely sure if they would fit in the established magic of D&D 5E. Or can I just say it does?

When you say your PC's are "low level"... what do you mean? Are we talking 1-4, or 6-10? Because I am completely comfortable sending PC's against a lich at level 10, but not so much at 4.

Also: Quick and easy fix is just "Rule 0." He's a necromancer, he's studying life force, and he's been experimenting on himself and prolonging his own life at the cost of his immortal soul. Boom. Done.

ALTERNATIVELY alternatively.... Book is similar to the One Ring forged by Sauron. Cursed item which grants longevity to the mortal wielder, but also is trying to make its way back to its true Master.

[SharkForce]

When you say your PC's are "low level"... what do you mean? Are we talking 1-4, or 6-10? Because I am completely comfortable sending PC's against a lich at level 10, but not so much at 4.

Also: Quick and easy fix is just "Rule 0." He's a necromancer, he's studying life force, and he's been experimenting on himself and prolonging his own life at the cost of his immortal soul. Boom. Done.

ALTERNATIVELY alternatively.... Book is similar to the One Ring forged by Sauron. Cursed item which grants longevity to the mortal wielder, but also is trying to make its way back to its true Master.

eh, i would be cautious in applying the same logic for casters so much as i would for other monsters when it comes to action economy.

bruisers don't often have attacks that can hit everyone for major damage. they seldom have attacks that completely change the action economy.

a particular added problem with a lich is that you're likely to have to kill it multiple times. and some of those are likely to occur on its terms instead of yours. there aren't a lot of ways going up against a high level wizard prepared for you with personal experience of your capabilities, no concerns about additional encounters (nova ahoy!) and no particular need to worry about surviving the encounter ends well for the people on the receiving end. now add in that at high levels, wizards have tools like contingency, glyph of warding, symbol, planar binding, mass suggestion, true polymorph, simulacrum, etc to turn resources from previous days into usable resources for the present, and, well... never mind nova. that lich is going to supernova your sorry behind, and it's only goint to leave a corpse so it can turn you all into experimental varieties of undead slaves to do whatever it wants for eternity. or maybe if you're lucky, your remains will merely be incorporated into a flesh golem or something and your soul won't be trapped in an undead monstrosity forever.

now, certainly, the *first* time they face the lich they may be able to pull it off. if they can surprise the lich, and if it isn't paranoid enough to have all kinds of defenses piled up everywhere in its lair. but even that could easily get a bit dicey.

[GreyBlack]

eh, i would be cautious in applying the same logic for casters so much as i would for other monsters when it comes to action economy.

bruisers don't often have attacks that can hit everyone for major damage. they seldom have attacks that completely change the action economy.

a particular added problem with a lich is that you're likely to have to kill it multiple times. and some of those are likely to occur on its terms instead of yours. there aren't a lot of ways going up against a high level wizard prepared for you with personal experience of your capabilities, no concerns about additional encounters (nova ahoy!) and no particular need to worry about surviving the encounter ends well for the people on the receiving end. now add in that at high levels, wizards have tools like contingency, glyph of warding, symbol, planar binding, mass suggestion, true polymorph, simulacrum, etc to turn resources from previous days into usable resources for the present, and, well... never mind nova. that lich is going to supernova your sorry behind, and it's only goint to leave a corpse so it can turn you all into experimental varieties of undead slaves to do whatever it wants for eternity. or maybe if you're lucky, your remains will merely be incorporated into a flesh golem or something and your soul won't be trapped in an undead monstrosity forever.

now, certainly, the *first* time they face the lich they may be able to pull it off. if they can surprise the lich, and if it isn't paranoid enough to have all kinds of defenses piled up everywhere in its lair. but even that could easily get a bit dicey.

And wouldn't that make for an incredible recurring villain setup?

I'll do you one better. At higher levels, the lich actually has minion bodyguards (e.g. local villagers whom it mind controlled) whom the players must dispatch in order to get to the lich itself. Which raises the CR of the encounter again.

A lone lich is a powerful spellcaster, yes. However, by 10th level, the PCs already have some powerful magic of their own. By that time, the PCs might be able to Scry and find out that they're dealing with a Lich. The Wizard will have to have Counterspell in their list for the day. Maybe see about buying some potions of Dispel Magic to remove any magical spells the Lich had memorized. Or, failing that? Potions of Bless will provide advantage on any saves they have to make.

You make the assumption that the PCs are just going to charge in and bash it with swords. A CR 13 encounter, while extremely difficult and may result in some deaths, is feasible and can be done at level 10. It will use more resources than your average encounter, but it's not outside of their ability range.

[SharkForce]

And wouldn't that make for an incredible recurring villain setup?

I'll do you one better. At higher levels, the lich actually has minion bodyguards (e.g. local villagers whom it mind controlled) whom the players must dispatch in order to get to the lich itself. Which raises the CR of the encounter again.

A lone lich is a powerful spellcaster, yes. However, by 10th level, the PCs already have some powerful magic of their own. By that time, the PCs might be able to Scry and find out that they're dealing with a Lich. The Wizard will have to have Counterspell in their list for the day. Maybe see about buying some potions of Dispel Magic to remove any magical spells the Lich had memorized. Or, failing that? Potions of Bless will provide advantage on any saves they have to make.

You make the assumption that the PCs are just going to charge in and bash it with swords. A CR 13 encounter, while extremely difficult and may result in some deaths, is feasible and can be done at level 10. It will use more resources than your average encounter, but it's not outside of their ability range.


liches are not CR 13. and no, a recurring villain that should completely destroy you once they recur doesn't really make for a great recurring villain imo.

[GreyBlack]

And now I'm trying to figure out how I've misremembered the lich stats. Weird.

[JackPhoenix]

liches are not CR 13. and no, a recurring villain that should completely destroy you once they recur doesn't really make for a great recurring villain imo.

CR 13 is also only hard encounter for 4 level 10 characters. They are expected to tackle about six of them between long rests.

Anyway, there was weakened lich in one of the adventure paths... CoS? Amber Temple, CR about 10.


And now I'm trying to figure out how I've misremembered the lich stats. Weird.

Standard lich was CR 13 in 3.5e

[Zene]

Never understood why any caster in 5e would become a lich. Just not worth it when immortality is so much easier. High level wizard? Cast Clone. Repeat. Anyone else? Find two druids you’re willing to spend eternity with, and the three of you can reincarnate new bodies everytime your current one sucks. Both options, besides being easier than lichdom, give you not only immortality but also eternal youth (if you want it), and you can still interact with society without paladins hunting you down all the time.

[RickAllison]

Never understood why any caster in 5e would become a lich. Just not worth it when immortality is so much easier. High level wizard? Cast Clone. Repeat. Anyone else? Find two druids you’re willing to spend eternity with, and the three of you can reincarnate new bodies everytime your current one sucks. Both options, besides being easier than lichdom, give you not only immortality but also eternal youth (if you want it), and you can still interact with society without paladins hunting you down all the time.

Lichdom carries other benefits. They no longer need to sleep or eat, and the souls they consume can sustain them for years apiece (the exact rates are unknown, but it is noted that lichs rarely seek out souls, and instead subsist on the idiots that try to face them. Basically, a lich can go about life just spending all their time studying and experimenting and only need to rest to get their spell slots back. They don't become a lich to become immortal but for that and so many other benefits.

[Deathtongue]

The Imprisonment spell will do the trick if you're okay with being confined to a small area for the rest of your life. The best part about Imprisonment is that you can get rid of the spell yourself when you get strong enough. The worst part of Imprisonment is that if you can't, you're stuck in that area until you gain enough power to get rid of your spell. And, of course, if you succeed on the spell you have to find a brand-new caster in order to use that spell on you.

Of course, Imprisonment is an immortality solution that's supposed to give you youth for centuries or millenia, not mere decades like Reincarnation and Clone. It's also a relatively cheap starting cost if used on 1-HD people.

...

As far as why would people become liches? That's not too hard to come up with a reason. Effects like Clone and Imprisonment and Ageless Planes and Immortality Boons are very high level. So high level that there's a question of most casters, even if they sought immortality, being able to live long enough to complete their research. There's nothing, AFAIK, that prevents an elderly level 5 wizard who took 50 years just to learn what they did with little morals from doing the foul rites to become a lich. Especially since a lot of the immortality schemes you don't do yourself (Imprisonment, Reincarnation, Clone) require a good deal of trust from the person who's using it on you.