Picking Spells on a Wizard.

[Foff]

So, my last character died in SKT, we were unfortunate enough to wander in a certain tavern where a certain vampire lived, so he took one of our party memebers hostage and his wolves made minced meat of my body so, I'm making a new character!

The plot hook for me joining the party is this, one of the party members (gnome artificer who wanders the world to prove himself to his family and guild through his inventions, kind of the family black sheep) realises the party is two people short and finally swallows his pride and calls for help with his sending stone.

The help comes in the form of his stupendous cousin, Wizard extraordinaire!

hence the core of the character, he has to be a forest gnome wizard, probably with the guild merchant or acolyte background.

And now is where it gets tricky, I didn't want the plain boring old blaster wizard who shoots stuff with his fingers and incinerates mooks with fireballs and stuff, i mean, he will have fireball but that's a totally unrelated deal.

So I'm going for an Abjuration wizard with the really nice Armor of Agathys(picked up via magic initiate at 4) Arcane Ward combo.

THE BUILD: (UA is permitted, all printed resources are permitted too)
I'm joining the party at level 8, I went for magic Initiate at level 4 and the UA feat "Fade Away" from the feats for races article at level 8:
STATS 10/14/14/18/12/8 with the standard array start.

From here is where your help comes in XD: Spell Selection, let's take into account that we're playing SKT and I set upon myself to fill the Tanky support role rather than a blaster, what the build needs is in order of importance:
1)Strong defensive tools, possibily useful against giants
2)Self and Party buffs
3)Disables (Slow, hold person and such)
4)Damage/aoe (while this should not be the focus of the build, having only defense buffs and suck or save disables means you can often be ignored, and we don't want that, we want the baddies to waste their actions attacking our arcane ward to destroy them with AoA until it breaks, then rinse and repeat with a lvl 4 AoA which also refills 8hp to the arcane ward)

WHAT I HAVE SO FAR:
Cantrips (7): booming blade, chill touch, shocking grasp, create bonfire, blade ward(Magic initiate), mage hand(magic initiate), minor illusion(forest gnome)
Level 1: absorb elements, shield, mage armor, find familiar, catapult, magic missile, fog cloud, healing elixir (UA)
Level 2: tba
Level 3: Slow, Fireball, Haste, Counterspell, ...
Level 4: Polymorph, ...

what would you pick to complete the build?

[Citan]

Hi!

First, two questions. ;)

1. What is that UA feat you are talking about? No memory of it.

2. Why not adapt stat distribution a bit to instead multiclass into Warlock? If you want to really take advantage of Armor of Agathys it's better to upcast it, no?
Plus the Charisma would be fitting a Guild Merchant imo and that way, while it does delay your next ASI by a bit, you can instead use it on maxing INT or bumping another stat, or grabbing Resilient: Constitution instead.

Anyways, back on your core question...


From here is where your help comes in XD: Spell Selection, let's take into account that we're playing SKT and I set upon myself to fill the Tanky support role rather than a blaster, what the build needs is in order of importance:
1)Strong defensive tools, possibily useful against giants
2)Self and Party buffs
3)Disables (Slow, hold person and such)
4)Damage/aoe (while this should not be the focus of the build, having only defense buffs and suck or save disables means you can often be ignored, and we don't want that, we want the baddies to waste their actions attacking our arcane ward to destroy them with AoA until it breaks, then rinse and repeat with a lvl 4 AoA which also refills 8hp to the arcane ward)

WHAT I HAVE SO FAR:
Cantrips (7): booming blade, chill touch, shocking grasp, create bonfire, blade ward(Magic initiate), mage hand(magic initiate), minor illusion(forest gnome)
Level 1: absorb elements, shield, mage armor, find familiar, catapult, magic missile, fog cloud, healing elixir (UA)
Level 2: tba
Level 3: Slow, Fireball, Haste, Counterspell, ...
Level 4: Polymorph, ...

what would you pick to complete the build?
Hmm...
One of my usual pick is Blindness, because possibility of mass-cast, non-concentration and great debuff... But obviously on Giants it's a hard gamble, considering their very high Constitution.
For them, any DEX-based will work great, as well as INT-based: so Grease and Web should be on your top list (especially since you can combine them ;)).
Faerie Fire would also be great, but not on Wizard list (one Warlock patron has it though).

Among other good to great spells...
- Mirror Image (if you manage to be the only one easily hittable in melee, it can be worth to stack it on top of Armor of Agathys to give you some breathing room: after all, your primary goal is to make enemies "waste" attacks on you, dealing damage to them in the process is "only" a big plus).
- Rope Trick: if your friend doesn't have it, YOU HAVE TO LEARN IT.
- Leomund's Tiny Hut: IDEM.
- Counterspell & Dispel Magic: IDEM.
- Phantasmal Force: single-target and concentration, but creatures that have more than +0 in INT saves can probably be counted on your fingers... ^^
- Misty Step: since you want to be into the thick of it and get hit, you may argue that this spell works against your goal. On another hand, if you misjudged a situation and end without your Ward and surrounded by enemies as a result, this could be a lifesaver. Up to you. :)
- Enlarge/Reduce: Reduce targets constitution, but Enlarge could help a martial friend to grapple/shove prone people.
- Bestow Curse: since you will be in melee anyways, the "touch" range is not that big a problem for you. WIS save and versatility (plus non-concentration when upcast) makes it great against a large array of creatures. I'd definitely pick it myself but YMMV.
- Evard's Black Tentacles: damage+utility+control built-in. Problem is that creature can choose between DEX and STR.
- Wall of Fire: auto-damage, opaque wall (so effective protection from casters and archers), can be shaped, what's not to like? :)

Note that, a great boon for you is that you are an in-game relative of the other Wizard, who trusts you enough to call you for help. So there is absolutely no reason for both of you to keep spells for yourselves.
>>> Plan ahead: if you don't want to metagame too much, just keep this in mind for the later levels. If you want to maximize, take this into account when selecting your initial spells known.
Whatever way you choose for your arrival, I' strongly argue that your priorities with your cousin Wizard should be...
- to share whatever knowledge one of you get, with acquired spells as a priority.
- to discuss on what roles you want to fill so both of you get a few "mandatory" spells but otherwise have a clear mission in combat.
- to each keep a copy of cousin's spellbook (so if something happens to only one of them the other can quickly get back up on feet).

Basically, it means that on each later level you learn 4 spells instead of 2. And when joining, even without metagaming, there will probably be at least three or four spells that the cousin chose to learn while you put them aside by lack of interest. Copying them is not only an extra insurance for your cousin, but also an insurance for the party as a whole that *someone* in the party has the right spell at the right time.

[adolann]

Primary problem you will run into with this is that AoA will only be a once a day, level one spell for you. Picking it up via Magic Initiate - Warlock means you can't use you other spell slots to cast it (as you were never a Warlock). If you want to use AoA, you'll need to take at least a 1 level dip into Warlock.

[Foff]

Primary problem you will run into with this is that AoA will only be a once a day, level one spell for you. Picking it up via Magic Initiate - Warlock means you can't use you other spell slots to cast it (as you were never a Warlock). If you want to use AoA, you'll need to take at least a 1 level dip into Warlock.

actually, with Magic Initiate you learn the spell, plus get one free casting at lowest level every long rest
at least this is what i read pretty much everywhere I checked for this build

[Foff]

Hi!

First, two questions. ;)

1. What is that UA feat you are talking about? No memory of it.

2. Why not adapt stat distribution a bit to instead multiclass into Warlock? If you want to really take advantage of Armor of Agathys it's better to upcast it, no?
Plus the Charisma would be fitting a Guild Merchant imo and that way, while it does delay your next ASI by a bit, you can instead use it on maxing INT or bumping another stat, or grabbing Resilient: Constitution instead.

Anyways, back on your core question...


Hmm...
One of my usual pick is Blindness, because possibility of mass-cast, non-concentration and great debuff... But obviously on Giants it's a hard gamble, considering their very high Constitution.
For them, any DEX-based will work great, as well as INT-based: so Grease and Web should be on your top list (especially since you can combine them ;)).
Faerie Fire would also be great, but not on Wizard list (one Warlock patron has it though).

Among other good to great spells...
- Mirror Image (if you manage to be the only one easily hittable in melee, it can be worth to stack it on top of Armor of Agathys to give you some breathing room: after all, your primary goal is to make enemies "waste" attacks on you, dealing damage to them in the process is "only" a big plus).
- Rope Trick: if your friend doesn't have it, YOU HAVE TO LEARN IT.
- Leomund's Tiny Hut: IDEM.
- Counterspell & Dispel Magic: IDEM.
- Phantasmal Force: single-target and concentration, but creatures that have more than +0 in INT saves can probably be counted on your fingers... ^^
- Misty Step: since you want to be into the thick of it and get hit, you may argue that this spell works against your goal. On another hand, if you misjudged a situation and end without your Ward and surrounded by enemies as a result, this could be a lifesaver. Up to you. :)
- Enlarge/Reduce: Reduce targets constitution, but Enlarge could help a martial friend to grapple/shove prone people.
- Bestow Curse: since you will be in melee anyways, the "touch" range is not that big a problem for you. WIS save and versatility (plus non-concentration when upcast) makes it great against a large array of creatures. I'd definitely pick it myself but YMMV.
- Evard's Black Tentacles: damage+utility+control built-in. Problem is that creature can choose between DEX and STR.
- Wall of Fire: auto-damage, opaque wall (so effective protection from casters and archers), can be shaped, what's not to like? :)

Note that, a great boon for you is that you are an in-game relative of the other Wizard, who trusts you enough to call you for help. So there is absolutely no reason for both of you to keep spells for yourselves.
>>> Plan ahead: if you don't want to metagame too much, just keep this in mind for the later levels. If you want to maximize, take this into account when selecting your initial spells known.
Whatever way you choose for your arrival, I' strongly argue that your priorities with your cousin Wizard should be...
- to share whatever knowledge one of you get, with acquired spells as a priority.
- to discuss on what roles you want to fill so both of you get a few "mandatory" spells but otherwise have a clear mission in combat.
- to each keep a copy of cousin's spellbook (so if something happens to only one of them the other can quickly get back up on feet).

Basically, it means that on each later level you learn 4 spells instead of 2. And when joining, even without metagaming, there will probably be at least three or four spells that the cousin chose to learn while you put them aside by lack of interest. Copying them is not only an extra insurance for your cousin, but also an insurance for the party as a whole that *someone* in the party has the right spell at the right time.

Ok, first of all, thanks for the reply and the time you put into it, you make good points too! :D

1. The feat is from the "Feat for Races" UA Article, it's called Fade Away and it's available to gnomes, you get +1 int and invisibility until the end of your next round as a reaction after receiving damage once per short or long rest, can't remember which
2. I went for an adapted stat distribution and dropped all the warlock shenaningans ideas all together, it didn't make sense roleplay-wise and I figured I just need Magic intiate for the build to work.
3. The family member in the party is actually not a wizard, he's the Artificer class from UA, gunsmith, he has rope trick in his spell selection and enlarge/reduce to boot (he already uses it on our barbarian to make him able to grapple giants) but no spellbook for spell trading, he has a few scrolls though, mostly utility spells like alarm and identify, so I forgot about those alltogether
4. all your ideas for spell selection were interesting, and i picked up a few in the end: so here goes the spell list
Cantrips: unchanged
1st: unchanged
2nd: hold person, ray of enfeeblement, invisibility, misty step
3rd: counterspell, dispel magic, haste, fireball
4th: Polymorph, evard black tentacles, fire shield for the giggles and summoning minor elementals for the mephit swarm dive bomber combo

I'm still on the "not so sure" side with ray of enfeeblement and summoning minor elementals (but i wanna try out the mephit dive bomber swarm so badly)
We also should be not too far off from a milestone levelup so I can figure it out there, also I'm gonna ask my DM for a few more wizard spells, it feels unlikely that a lvl 8 wizard who studied magic his whole life only has the spells he got from "leveling up" available

[Dalebert]

actually, with Magic Initiate you learn the spell, plus get one free casting at lowest level every long rest
at least this is what i read pretty much everywhere I checked for this build

Some DMs may house-rule that you learn it but all it does by RAW is let you cast it once a day at 1st level. I think you should learn it and be able to cast it with spell slots but Crawford has said that only happens if it's already on your class spell list. Of course most people take it because it's not on their spell list.

[SharkForce]

Some DMs may house-rule that you learn it but all it does by RAW is let you cast it once a day at 1st level. I think you should learn it and be able to cast it with spell slots but Crawford has said that only happens if it's already on your class spell list. Of course most people take it because it's not on their spell list.

well, this is actually an instance of sage advice kinda pulling something out of thin air, so it's not surprising people don't know about this.

for reference: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats

supposedly, the spellcasting ability gives you some sort of ability to use your spell slots to cast the spells of a given class; eg, the wizard's spellcasting ability gives you the ability to use your spell slots to cast wizard spells, and without that, you have no ability to use your spell slots to cast wizard spells. to quote the above article: "For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know"

thing is, i have no idea what he's talking about, because there is no such text in the spellcasting ability of a sorcerer (or other spellcasting classes) in my PHB. granted, i don't have the most recent printing, but if it has received errata, then the SRD websites haven't noticed it either, because here's the 5thsrd.org text for the sorcerer's spellcasting ability (similar to the text for other classes):

"An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells."

my PHB additionally refers you to go to chapter 10 and 11 (11 being the spell lists, 10 being the general rules for spellcasting) for more information about casting spells, neither of which provide any clarification to the spellcasting ability of each class as far as i am aware.

which is to say, the source in question (sage advice hosted on the D&D website) is completely official to my knowledge, and in any event shows what RAI would be, but it is perfectly understandable that people weren't initially aware of it, and that people who haven't read the sage advice article in question are still not aware of it, because so far as i can tell, that line of text the sage is referring to in the spellcasting ability of all the various classes does not actually exist, and should probably be included in errata.

of course, unlike some other rules clarifications that people insist are RAW, i don't feel like this one screws up something that would otherwise be a good thing, so i'm totally ok with using it, but it is totally not RAW. the line of text the sage is supposedly quoting is not actually written anywhere in the books that i am aware of.

[Foff]

I'm actually referring to the errata that states that Magic initiate tells "You learn the spell" which means you can cast it using your spell slots on top of the free bonus casting, but posts are all over the place about it sooo heck...

anyway i'm not playing AL or anything, and I probably know the d&d rules better than my current DM so I'll make do with that, AoA Arcane ward is a gimmik build, which may work, but it's not gamebreaking in any way (unless you consider gamebreaking being able to summon extra hp sources for a total worth of 216 hp at 8th level), and having to corrupt the character concept and story just to take AoA is pretty stupid in my opinion.

[Citan]

Ok, first of all, thanks for the reply and the time you put into it, you make good points too! :D

I figured I just need Magic intiate for the build to work.

I'm still on the "not so sure" side with ray of enfeeblement and summoning minor elementals (but i wanna try out the mephit dive bomber swarm so badly)
We also should be not too far off from a milestone levelup so I can figure it out there, also I'm gonna ask my DM for a few more wizard spells, it feels unlikely that a lvl 8 wizard who studied magic his whole life only has the spells he got from "leveling up" available
Hey, thanks, glad you are appreciating it. As I say... "No point in making bad points", right? :smallbiggrin:

Too bad for you about your cousin not being a proper Wizard, but Artificer has its perks too. ;)

As I said and others stressed, by RAW-SA you cannot use Armor of Agathys more than once as 1st level spell if you take it from Magic Initiate.
But if your DM is open-minded enough to allow UA content, you should really ask him to allow you to "100% learn" Armor of Agathys as a houserule.? Especially if so far he didn't give you any chance at learning extra spells.

Don't hesitate to remind him, on that topic, that learning extra spells is basically the only reason to play a Wizard (okay, I'm a bit on the provocative side here ^^ but it's not devoid of truth though).


Some DMs may house-rule that you learn it but all it does by RAW is let you cast it once a day at 1st level. I think you should learn it and be able to cast it with spell slots but Crawford has said that only happens if it's already on your class spell list. Of course most people take it because it's not on their spell list.
This. I don't really understand why he ruled out like this... If he had been really afraid of balance problems with some 1st level "iconic" spells, he could just have said instead that you couldn't upcast it. Although it would have been arguably strange fluff-wise...
Anyways, I fail to see any situation in which houseruling that "you learn the spell as normal, it's just not counted as a 'class-spell' when class features are limited to your usual spellist" would break anything... :)

[SharkForce]

I'm actually referring to the errata that states that Magic initiate tells "You learn the spell" which means you can cast it using your spell slots on top of the free bonus casting, but posts are all over the place about it sooo heck...

anyway i'm not playing AL or anything, and I probably know the d&d rules better than my current DM so I'll make do with that, AoA Arcane ward is a gimmik build, which may work, but it's not gamebreaking in any way (unless you consider gamebreaking being able to summon extra hp sources for a total worth of 216 hp at 8th level), and having to corrupt the character concept and story just to take AoA is pretty stupid in my opinion.

well the weird thing about it is that if you dip a single level of warlock (no need for magic initiate in this case), you can cast armour of agathys (or any warlock spell) using any spell slot you have. so you could always just do that.

you could also take a second level of warlock for the mage armour at-will invocation, which will allow you to charge your ward in a few rounds whenever you aren't in a battle.

but basically, stealth errata (because it requires that you imagine some extra words in the book) took away the magic initiate trick. still works with other things.

[Foff]

I will most certainly look into a 1 level dip in warlock if my DM won't allow the feat to work that way, picking up level 2 right off the bat and renouncing 4th level spells is pretty much suicide in this setting i believe, giants hit hard and often

[Breashios]

Maybe someone has already suggested and I just missed it, but against really high HP enemies with (normally) low to average wisdom I would get Hypnotic Pattern.

On the negative side it is concentration and might only last a round or two, but one or two rounds is a lot in 5e if you are facing groups of giants (more than 1 or 2).