Please help me design a legionary.

[Spiritchaser]

My current campaign has, as a backdrop, an empire that has conquered a large portion of the world based on military training, industrial might and excellent tactical leadership. Support from divine spellcasters, clerics and priests (refluffed 2nd rev favoured soul sorcerers) do support the legions, but it is primarily the training and the culture of the legions themselves that have held sway.

This is a fairly low magic campaign, but even so, the mechanics of a large army facing a few fireballs results in a very much smaller army in short order...

Unless I rework the legions themselves a bit.

I’d like to come up with a fighter AT to match the kit, for PCs with imperial soldier as their background, and for NPCs

I want to include some specific powers:

Where a legionary is equipped with a shield, they may save against Dex save AoE damage with strength.

When using a shield and when within 5 feet of a companion with a shield on each side, the legionary gains an AC bonus, and takes half of the Dex save AoE damage (this would be 1/4 on a successful save). This might best be described as resistance to avoid stacking issues.

At least once per short rest they may use their wisdom save roll for any creature within 5 feet with whom they can communicate. This happens after the rolls are made. (Makes a formation tough to crack)

I’m thinking that any higher level powers might be more buff oriented, but haven’t really worked this through

Any thoughts, suggestions, or references to existing home brew would be much appreciated.

[Chugger]

Have you studied the Pilum, the particularly crafted javelin that was designed to penetrate enemy shields but also to bend on a strike and thus be hard to pick up and hurl back?

They mainly fought with a short sword in melee (some spear use). A stabbing short sword. A gladius.

They were great at engineering and building things. They built far more than they fought - roads, bridges, forts and so on.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Important question, are you creating NPC's or are you creating a kit that players can become?

[Aaron Underhand]

I would consider "The Eagle"

Legionary troops in good order within 30 ft of their Eagle gain resistance to magical damage


Plus something like what you have suggested for the shield formation: In legionary formation you get almost the equivalent of two of the benefits of shield mastery:


If you are in legionary close order of at least a dozen men (4x3 or 3x4 in adjacent 5ft squares) you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets your formation.

If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

[Jack Bitters]

With all due respect, much of what you're suggesting seems like it could be replicated with pre-existing features such as the Shield Master feat, the Protection fighting style, and the Purple Dragon Knight from SCAG.

I'd urge you to check out these three things, particularly the PDK, and mesh their mechanical effects into a subclass for your legionaries. I would also like to second Aaron's suggestion to give the benefits of Shield Master while in Legion Formation. That way you wouldn't need to take the actual feat for the effect.

Depending on the length of the campaign you want to run, consider front loading the fighter AT with the features you want and leaving very little for the higher levels, knowing that you wouldn't get that far in game.

[Spiritchaser]

Important question, are you creating NPC's or are you creating a kit that players can become?

Yes

These are NPCs that define the military landscape for much of the world, and the special NPCs that I keep record sheets for

But

I try and make as many special origins as possible. It feels more fair, and tends to ground the character more than just a background.

I’ve already fudged this quickly once for two characters who iare no longer with us...

Next time I’ll do better

[Spiritchaser]

I would consider "The Eagle"

Legionary troops in good order within 30 ft of their Eagle gain resistance to magical damage


Plus something like what you have suggested for the shield formation: In legionary formation you get almost the equivalent of two of the benefits of shield mastery:


If you are in legionary close order of at least a dozen men (4x3 or 3x4 in adjacent 5ft squares) you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets your formation.

If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.


Heh, the obvious similarity to the Roman legions is... obvious.

I definitely composed the empire based on Rome, and I love the eagle. The players have already seen an eagle standard in the imperial capital... and the eagles themselves can be somewhat “magical” I don’t want the legions themselves to be overtly magical, but I think this really fits.

[Throne12]

I'll echo the purple dragon knight fighter with the shield master feat and the Protection fighting. Then maybe pick up the feat Martial adept and grab Commanding strike and rally battle Maneuvers.

[Spiritchaser]

Have you studied the Pilum, the particularly crafted javelin that was designed to penetrate enemy shields but also to bend on a strike and thus be hard to pick up and hurl back?

They mainly fought with a short sword in melee (some spear use). A stabbing short sword. A gladius.

They were great at engineering and building things. They built far more than they fought - roads, bridges, forts and so on.

The empire in my campaign is good at commerce, organization, logistics, military training and is on generally good terms with their gods. They are very very good at...

Sanitation.

Their cities are large, and no-one gets sick.

Their environmental stewardship on the other hand leaves a very great deal to be desired, and their greed has led to political machinations with potentially world ending consequences.

[Spiritchaser]

With regards to the use of purple dragon knight and shield mastery, I appreciate the comments but want something a bit different.

The survival in formation is critical, particularly against magical effects, and needs to be very strong (obviously at the cost of other features)

I do also want the group strength right in the baseline.

Edit: for reference, in the campaign world, the empire has conquered more magically adept nations with superior foot soldiers. (And having those soldiers organized, provisioned, and transported where they needed to be, when they needed to be there) I want that to be mechanically viable.

[PeteNutButter]

IMO the strength of the legion is the formation. I'd say the benefits should be applied only to those in the formation, which would translate to adjacent allies. The abilities should be rely on that formation and maintaining that formation.

I made a whole class a while ago that is based on the greco-roman style character. http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkTVdlJxe It would be called Champion if that weren't annoyingly already a fighter subclass.

Not entirely what you are looking for, but might give you some ideas.

[Alejandro]

With regards to the use of purple dragon knight and shield mastery, I appreciate the comments but want something a bit different.

The survival in formation is critical, particularly against magical effects, and needs to be very strong (obviously at the cost of other features)

I do also want the group strength right in the baseline.

Edit: for reference, in the campaign world, the empire has conquered more magically adept nations with superior foot soldiers. (And having those soldiers organized, provisioned, and transported where they needed to be, when they needed to be there) I want that to be mechanically viable.

It sounds like your empire's war machine needs specially trained war wizards assigned to their formations/units, whose job it is to counterspell enemy spell attacks like Fireball. Possibly a different, all wizard special unit that provides artillery support with their own Fireballs.

[Eric Diaz]

One thing I haven't seem mentioned here is COVER. It would make sense in the context of roman legions to grant them cover when holding a shield. And cover also affects Dexterity saving throws agasint spells etc.

I might also allow them to use big +3 AC shields, which would work well with Shield Master but not require it. Or maybe three-quarters cover instead of the shields' AC against certain attacks (if you can see your attacker etc).

[JackPhoenix]

One thing I haven't seem mentioned here is COVER. It would make sense in the context of roman legions to grant them cover when holding a shield. And cover also affects Dexterity saving throws agasint spells etc.

I might also allow them to use big +3 AC shields, which would work well with Shield Master but not require it. Or maybe three-quarters cover instead of the shields' AC against certain attacks (if you can see your attacker etc).

3/4 cover doesn't make much sense in combat, where they need mobility to fight effectively, but it's what I'd give to testudo formation.


With regards to the use of purple dragon knight and shield mastery, I appreciate the comments but want something a bit different.

The survival in formation is critical, particularly against magical effects, and needs to be very strong (obviously at the cost of other features)

I do also want the group strength right in the baseline.

Edit: for reference, in the campaign world, the empire has conquered more magically adept nations with superior foot soldiers. (And having those soldiers organized, provisioned, and transported where they needed to be, when they needed to be there) I want that to be mechanically viable.

Problem is that unless you make those superior soldiers straight up immune to magic, there isn't much formations would do. Magic is just too versatile. Even if they know how to achieve best cover against Fireball, it won't help them when the casters drop Cloudkill on them instead, send bunch of conjured monsters or animated undead, or make ground beneath their feet explode with Erupting Earth or lure them into Glyph of Warding minefield, or break their formation with Fear, or, or...

See my point?

You can make every soldier level 7 Ancients Paladin with 20 cha for +5 to saves and resistance to magic damage, but that breaks versimilitude more than a little.

[Laserlight]

You can make every soldier level 7 Ancients Paladin with 20 cha for +5 to saves and resistance to magic damage, but that breaks versimilitude more than a little.

You don't need to have it be every soldier; perhaps just the centurion, perhaps 4-5 specialists per century with a Resist aura and limited magic training that gives them Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and Silence.

You could also have legionary equipment include an item with + Saving Throws against magic, perhaps only when they're within 100ft of an Eagle. Perhaps the Eagles are consecrated to have an aura, which would certainly motivate you to avoid losing it.

A Throne of Bones (book 1 of Arts of Dark and Light) has a pseudo-Roman nation which is strongly opposed to magic, although they still need to deal with the warmages of other human powers and the elves, as well as goblin shamans and such. They have an order of anti-magic knights (think Templars); as I recall, they also have some additional protection for the rank and file, although I don't remember what it was. And of course they have ballistae.

[Eric Diaz]

3/4 cover doesn't make much sense in combat, where they need mobility to fight effectively, but it's what I'd give to testudo formation.

Yeah, this. But also they could move in testudo formation, albeit at a slower pace, until they get to the spellcasters.


Problem is that unless you make those superior soldiers straight up immune to magic, there isn't much formations would do. Magic is just too versatile. Even if they know how to achieve best cover against Fireball, it won't help them when the casters drop Cloudkill on them instead, send bunch of conjured monsters or animated undead, or make ground beneath their feet explode with Erupting Earth or lure them into Glyph of Warding minefield, or break their formation with Fear, or, or...

See my point?

You can make every soldier level 7 Ancients Paladin with 20 cha for +5 to saves and resistance to magic damage, but that breaks versimilitude more than a little.

I mostly agree, but there are some options.

Maybe the Romans have anti-magic shields, made of a special tree, that would give them saving throw bonuses against ALL spells. Other problemas would be dealt with ruthless efficiency: they can train soldiers faster than the other side can train mages, they can cut down trees in seconds, etc.

Or maybe it is a cultural trait: while in formation, they get advantage in all saving throw against all spells because they believe in their Republic more than they believe in magic. Even if they only get braver (Wisdom) and tougher (Constitution), it is a significant boost against magic.

EDIT: TBH I really like these ideas and would probably allow them to my pseudo-Romans, the Empire of the Dead (http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2017/08/the-empire-of-dead.html).

[Vykryl]

Sorry I can't remember the names and the details are fuzzy in my mind. I'm just off work and away from my books.

The Roman legion worked as a 3 rank unit broken into smaller units with size varying at different times. Front rank was the iconic banded mail, rectangle shield, glaidias trooper that usually carried a couple shield piercing spears to throw before engaging. Second rank were javelin wielders. Third rank were slingers. You could replace one of the back ranks with a utility spell casting unit and keep the flavor of the historic legion with a fantasy twist.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Another thing to reference would be the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. There he has the descendants of Roman legionares in a world with magic. Mind you, the legionares tend to survive more through luck and sheer numbers, but the empire as a whole flourishes with it's specialists, which also use the magic equivalent (which is more like druid magic than arcane). Especially towards the end, they make use of non-magical technologies that had been long forgotten, like catapults, which led to them not needing the specialists as much (and they were running out of them).

Might be cool to look at for looking at things to counter. Also just a fun read in general, really.

[Spiritchaser]

Problem is that unless you make those superior soldiers straight up immune to magic, there isn't much formations would do. Magic is just too versatile. Even if they know how to achieve best cover against Fireball, it won't help them when the casters drop Cloudkill on them instead, send bunch of conjured monsters or animated undead, or make ground beneath their feet explode with Erupting Earth or lure them into Glyph of Warding minefield, or break their formation with Fear, or, or...


The AT itself will provide resistance to dex save spells through shield wall and turtle formations, but will have no more protection against con save spells than they now have (excepting the fact that they will have rather high CON saves)

The eagle suggestion from Aaron Underhand earlier in the thread shores up the army as a whole and pretty much gets me the rest of what I need.

Summons will be somewhat effective, but they will be walking into a well trained nest of spears and swords

Cloudkill will be somewhat effective, it should be, it's a 5th level spell, but even there, with high con saves and the eagle, the legions may hold fast where other armies could not.

And the legions will have SOME magic, with their war priests and clerics... just not that much

[Spiritchaser]

It sounds like your empire's war machine needs specially trained war wizards assigned to their formations/units, whose job it is to counterspell enemy spell attacks like Fireball. Possibly a different, all wizard special unit that provides artillery support with their own Fireballs.

There really aren't that many arcane casters in the empire. Almost all of their magic is divine. The sole exception would be the priests (rev 2 favoured soul) sorcerer/clerics, but these are relatively few and far between on the battlefield. Narratively the legions work without too much magic. I'm at the point where I need some mechanical grounding for the way the story works.

Most other factions have more magic, although these are typically quite badly organized thaumatocracies... (ok I know that's not a word) or primitive/tribal shamanistic/druidic cultures. these may have a few strong casters but cannot rally large groups of soldiers to a single point, and those soldiers will not be trained to fight in large formations.

[Slipperychicken]

You're making this harder than it needs to be. Here's the way to go:

Vhuman battlemaster fighter with protection fighting style, shield master feat
Arms and armor: Breastplate (or chain mail, or scale), shield, short sword, javelins, darts
Maneuvers: Riposte, parry, distracting strike
At level 3: Pick a good artisan tool to represent glorious roman engineering or whatever

That already gives disadvantage to basically every attack against the formation, great AC, parry to mitigate some of the damage that gets through, but mostly riposte to ruin enemies that will inevitably swing and miss. That shield wall is gonna be hard to break with anything other than AoEs.

For great leadership: Give some level 4 squad-leaders (whatever the equivalent is) the inspiring leader feat.