[GUIDE] Inquisitor Lim's Bladesinger and Wizard Guide: Xanathar's Edition

[Deathtongue]

Hello! This is my first guide for 5E D&D, and let me tell you, I did not expect for this thing to reach 150+ pages.

This guide was inspired by NADRIGOL's (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sTjFnr813CNPqBM5joI-_ocHceG5_ZbzP2jD4cE4S6U/edit#) Bladesinger guide. However, I disagreed with the original author on certain spell ratings and I felt that a Magical Item guide was extremely warranted. Still, check out his guide! It's really good.

This is the formal link for the guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6vBhvie18hFDmnom5lMv3zTj1nYUkvC8UxH0ngZWXQ/edit). The latest copy, in other words.

This is the editable link for the guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AzJi0VuT1gVKreRHmmesZlmXaL6KE53o1pJYNW02990/edit). If you feel any clarifications or edits are warranted that aren't really fit for a BBPost (typo correction, item descriptions I've missed, etc.) feel free to put them in.

In addition to the formal TODO list in the guide, there are about 8 wondrous items I didn't include, a bunch of magical weapons I also didn't include, and I didn't do skills. However, everything else is at its final draft version, including spells and every other magical item. I wanted to get this out before Xanathar's dropped, because that is also going to be a beast-and-a-half to integrate.

Despite the name of the guide, I think there's plenty in here that is useful for wizards. It's just that the spell and magical item ratings are geared towards the Bladesinger class.

[Deathtongue]

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[Deathtongue]

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[Deathtongue]

I just got the Xanathar's Guide to Everything book. There are some good, worthwhile spells in here along with a lot of junk and reprints. However, anyone who has survived the 3E and especially 4E D&D kludge knows that you only need to have two or three good options out of thirty bad ones to be super-effective. And I think Xanathar's gives enough super-effective options to make the book worthwhile. Expect something this Sunday or so.

If you're super-impatient, you can see me updating the guide in real-time. I'm already up to 4th-level spells, but then again most of the new spells are 4th-level or higher.

[jaappleton]

I'll delete this post if you request, due to not wanting to interrupt the flow of your posts.

The lv5 spell Steel Wind Strike seems stellar, dealing 6d10 damage to up to 5 creatures within 30ft of you. Unsure if it deals half damage on a miss, though, that would lower the rating considerably if it just misses.

Thunder Step seems pretty darn sweet, dealing damage for a 3rd level spell as you teleport away.

Regardless, if UA or the DMG are allowed, Eladrins should rank near the top of the list of racial choices for a Bladesinger.

[Deathtongue]

I'll get to it when I get to it, but I broadly agree with those choices.

Steel Wind Strike does slightly less damage than an upcasted Fireball (despite having a generally better targeting scheme) but the real value is the teleport.

Same for Thunder Step. Using an action for a 3d10 thunder, Constitution-Half spell would be very underwhelming at 3rd level if it were not also for both the teleport and (especially) the taking someone with you.

As far as Eladrin goes, getting a short-rest Misty Step is pretty dang good, but since you will definitely want to prep it in a regular spell slot anyway it basically amounts to an extra level 2 spell slot. Which is definitely not bad compared to other options, but it's not a hugely dominating one. It makes them the best 'legal' Bladesinger race by a small margin (cantrip versus virtual extra second-level spell slot) but I have a hard time seeing them as better than Variant humans, Feral Tieflings with wings, Stout halflings, or Yuan-Ti in games with rolled stats.

I'm still against the idea of building a Bladesinger towards being a melee butt-kicker, but Tenser's Transformation makes a very strong argument for building your character in that direction at 13th to 16th levels. Perhaps level 11 if you do short workdays.

[jaappleton]

I'll get to it when I get to it, but I broadly agree with those choices.

Steel Wind Strike does slightly less damage than an upcasted Fireball (despite having a generally better targeting scheme) but the real value is the teleport.

Same for Thunder Step. Using an action for a 3d10 thunder, Constitution-Half spell would be very underwhelming at 3rd level if it were not also for both the teleport and (especially) the taking someone with you.

As far as Eladrin goes, getting a short-rest Misty Step is pretty dang good, but since you will definitely want to prep it in a regular spell slot anyway it basically amounts to an extra level 2 spell slot. Which is definitely not bad compared to other options, but it's not a hugely dominating one. It makes them the best 'legal' Bladesinger race by a small margin (cantrip versus virtual extra second-level spell slot) but I have a hard time seeing them as better than Variant humans, Feral Tieflings with wings, Stout halflings, or Yuan-Ti in games with rolled stats.

I'm still against the idea of building a Bladesinger towards being a melee butt-kicker, but Tenser's Transformation makes a very strong argument for building your character in that direction at 13th to 16th levels. Perhaps level 11 if you do short workdays.

Emphasis mine.

The UA version specifically doesn't use Misty Step anymore. Now it can't be Counterspelled, it's its own unique thing.

Not a massive change, but worth noting.

[Deathtongue]

Emphasis mine.

The UA version specifically doesn't use Misty Step anymore. Now it can't be Counterspelled, it's its own unique thing.

Not a massive change, but worth noting.

That still doesn't change what I said, though. I have Counterspelled other NPC casters' Misty Steps (mostly in the context of one trying to get away from a Telekinesis/Black Tentacles) but as far as PCs are concerned a caster that wastes a Counterspell on use is generally creating an opening.

[TheUser]

Having so much devoted to Item ratings seems folly since this is largely outside of the player's control; the DM chooses what items the group finds...rarely do my tables have a gold budget for open magic item purchases.

[Deathtongue]

Having so much devoted to Item ratings seems folly since this is largely outside of the player's control; the DM chooses what items the group finds...rarely do my tables have a gold budget for open magic item purchases.If you're playing in Adventurer's League and/or one of the hardcovers, you're going to be getting a lot of magical items. This is especially true if you go to conventions and take a spin at Fai Chens or just compare magical item notes with other players. I play in the Wisconsin area and have about 30 other level 5+ people to talk to for trades I can see at least once a month if I want.

While I've almost never been in a game where someone can just wave their hands and declare that they have a +2 weapon (let alone something of higher rarity), getting to level 10 or so with 4-6 useful items happens a lot more often than you think in both home and especially official games. But even if you play only in home games, you're going to be getting a lot of magical items (especially scrolls and spellbooks) unless the DM is specifically trying to clamp down on selection.

This is why I'm generally unsatisfied with other 5E D&D class guides and wrote this one. They completely focus on a kind of game that's idiosyncratic to the point of being unrepresentative. Especially with the rather blinkered assumption that encounters are typically 6-8 resource draining deals.

[Sariel Vailo]

I actually use the drow i turn my blade singer into the party face so it is helpful but i do agree unless the dm makes or allows more finesse weapon properties. Pretty poor race but i do get a fun build i use actor and the ua feat for more performance double proficency. And i have the entertainer background.

[Zene]

Duuude... thanks for doing this. All I've read is the intro, and I'm already so, so psyched for this guide. You hit the nail on the head (IME) in terms of assumptions, the bladesinger's role, and what's missing from other guides.

Can't wait to read it and come back to comment. I'm currently leveling a bladesinger AL, and I've noticed a few tricks/quirks/things that aren't covered in other guides. If I don't see them in your guide I'll post some comments here to help (possibly) contribute.

[Deathtongue]

All right. All of the spells in Xanathar's are rated. I also finally inserted a Cantrip section I rather foolishly left out the first time around.

[Zene]

Ok --whew-- finally finished.

Awesome, awesome guide. Lots of great stuff for people new to the subclass, and lots of great stuff for people that already know the basics. Thank you for taking the time to put this together, and to make it so thorough. Quite a few tricks it seems no one else I've run into had ever thought of --like loading a minion with a Ring of Spell Storing so you can have two concentration buffs on you; or Rope Tricking with an Amulet of the Planes for Prime Material teleports-- are noted, which is awesome. And I learned quite a few new ones as well!

A few comments/questions:

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I love the magic item section; in fact, would you consider adding a "making the most of a Tome of the Stilled Tongue" section like you did for Glyph, Simulacrum, etc? Since it opens up so many possibilities due to shortening cast time, having every spell in your book accessible even if not prepared, and with playing around with spell interactions (like casting two synergistic 9th-levels together). Even silly things like the usually-sorcerer-only trick of bonus-action-casting Sunbeam and then activating a second beam on the same turn with your action...I know I'm looking forward to bonus-action-shapechange-->attack-->attack in round 1 once I get to Tier 4, but I'm sure there are way crazier tricks.

Note, btw, there are currently two places in AL that it's available --both relatively recent releases-- so given the ease of trading and the (current) ease of getting legendaries on Tier 2 characters (from CoS and SKT) as trade fodder, I bet a lot of AL bladesingers are going to have one in the near future, and will even be leveling most of the game with one.

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[Referring to AL play] "You may in fact want to have a second wizard character around whose only purpose is to accumulate spells you can't get."

In AL, how would you transfer? Just hope that there's a wizard that plays with your secondary wizard, and then plays with your bladesinger, and copies all the spells you want to transfer? Or am I missing something...

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"Unless you rolled like a protagonist in the climax of a gambling movie, you will only have room for one feat plus stat maxing. Make it count."

Headband of Intellect frees up 1-2 ASI's if you're ok with just a +4 int bonus. Is dex all that important, especially if you plan on being a caster first and a melee'er second? Belts of giant strength make you a better striker than if you had 20 dex. With that in mind, is it better to go for feats? My L7 bladesinger is sitting at 16 dex 13 int (19 with headband), and (several) feats seem way more attractive than stat bumps. Maybe it's just because the gish part of the bladesinger is far less attractive to me than the wizard part. But is the math on a few +1s to rolls really all that weighty, compared to Lucky, Alert, Warcaster, Res(Con)? (I'm seriously asking here, I'd love to be corrected if I'm just missing the point)

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Now, most people want to use Wish to poach spells from other spells. Which is fine, because it's the safest way to use the spell. However, there are ways to avoid the drain (ugh) and the Never Cast Wish Again (UGGGGH). Probably the easiest way to avoid it is to have your Simulacrum cast Wish, though do note that the Adventurer's League specifically plugged this loophole. The second-safest way to cast it is to have someone else do it. Do you trust your Rock-turned-Volo's Abjurer-Via-True-Polymorph with your Tome of the Stilled Tongue? You probably shouldn't, but it is an option, especially if you use the Astral Projection loop. Get creative.


Could you explain this a little further? Volo's Abjurer only has 7th-level slots... how is he able to cast Wish? If he's using your TotST, how is he able to cast things from it since it's not his spellbook? Even if he attunes, since he didn't copy those spells into it, as I understand it he can't cast them; he'd need to copy spells into it himself I think.

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Find Greater Steed (Xanathar’s) – You get a griffon, pegasus, peryton, dire wolf, rhinoceros, or a saber-toothed tiger instead of the standard mount choices. You want this, but, haha good luck actually getting to use it in an Adventurer’s League game, Bladesinger

Why's that?

----

Really looking forward to the multiclass section. I totally agree that delaying wizard spell acquisition by even a single level is too big a cost; however, I do think dipping for your last level or two can have huge payoffs.

My own bladesinger has aspirations to be a Shapechanging grappler in the endgame, so after Wiz 17/18 I'm planning on dipping Rogue 1 for Athletics Expertise, and Warlock 1 for Armor of Agathys and Hex (Hex is less for grappling and more for other shenanigans, like intentionally failing Amulet of the Planes checks, social hijinx, helping out my Illusionist friends, etc).

[Deathtongue]

In AL, how would you transfer? Just hope that there's a wizard that plays with your secondary wizard, and then plays with your bladesinger, and copies all the spells you want to transfer? Or am I missing something... You are allowed to trade magical items and spells between characters you own if you have the downtime days for it. This is probably the best way to do it. I play in a fairly large area and Wisconsin is probably THE best state for conventions, but I didn't get Watery Sphere, Transmute Rock, Whirlwind, and Investiture of Stone for my character until literally last weekend.

I imagine it's going to be even more of a slog for Bladesingers who want Xanathar's stuff, especially the higher-level spells. Like it or not, most wizards in actual games pick stuff like Acid Arrow and Arcane Lock. I'm just going to cut out the middleman.


Could you explain this a little further? Volo's Abjurer only has 7th-level slots... how is he able to cast Wish? If he's using your TotST, how is he able to cast things from it since it's not his spellbook? Even if he attunes, since he didn't copy those spells into it, as I understand it he can't cast them; he'd need to copy spells into it himself I think.You are correct. This trick does not work.


Really looking forward to the multiclass section. I totally agree that delaying wizard spell acquisition by even a single level is too big a cost; however, I do think dipping for your last level or two can have huge payoffs.
Generally, I disagree that's it's worth doing so near the end of the game even though the last two wizard levels are lackluster on class features. For two reasons.

1.) If you stick with a full-caster, you still get level 6 and 7 spell slots. Even if all you care is how much of an awesome melee guy you are and were just there for Foresight, that's still one or two extra Contingency or Tenser's Transformation or Investiture of Stone.

2.) Combined with effect 1, this means going through the game with lopsided stats if you're finishing off with, say, Sorcerer or Bard. I think going through the entire game with 2 less DEX or CON than you'd otherwise have is just too painful for an end-of-game payoff that's not that big.

Maybe I'll re-evaluate the efficacy of multiclassing once WotC releases another INT or CON-based full caster, but generally I feel that even end-of-game multiclassing will generally put you behind. If you have magical items in your game and you really, really want something like Armor of Agathys I would just prep a couple of Rings of Spell Storing and attune-swap them during short rests.


Headband of Intellect frees up 1-2 ASI's if you're ok with just a +4 int bonus. Is dex all that important, especially if you plan on being a caster first and a melee'er second? Belts of giant strength make you a better striker than if you had 20 dex. With that in mind, is it better to go for feats?
Having some sort of concentration booster really is a big deal and you should have one by level 8 or so. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?596207-GUIDE-Inquisitor-Lim-s-Bladesinger-and-Wizard-Guide-Xanathar-s-Edition/page3&p=7269972&viewfull=1#post7269972)

If you're playing in a home game and you get a stat-replacement item, then yes, you can focus on something else. However, the thing about using stat replacement items is that they eat up your attunement slot. You can do some hotswapping with attunement items to minimize the load, but Adventurer's League drops some seriously good magical items. I don't know if it's possible to get these three items legally (I never look at hardcover material until after the adventure is over, and I don't look at DDAL modules, period) but imagine if you found yourself unable to use the trinity of an Ioun Stone of Mastery, Robe of the Archmagi, and a Staff of Power because you had to reserve two of your items for a Headband of Intellect and an Amulet of Health.

Nothing's guaranteed and I consider it a very acceptable risk, unlike multiclassing, but it is something to consider.

[Zene]

You are allowed to trade magical items and spells between characters you own if you have the downtime days for it.

Ah, I'd always been told you have to be in the same session as the wizard you're copying from... hence can never copy between your own characters. Which is weird, since it is a downtime activity; I may have been misinformed. I just checked the AL FAQ, I don't see anything on it one way or the other.



Generally, I disagree that's it's worth doing so near the end of the game even though the last two wizard levels are lackluster on class features. For two reasons.

1.) If you stick with a full-caster, you still get level 6 and 7 spell slots. Even if all you care is how much of an awesome melee guy you are and were just there for Foresight, that's still one or two extra Contingency or Tenser's Transformation or Investiture of Stone.

2.) Combined with effect 1, this means going through the game with lopsided stats if you're finishing off with, say, Sorcerer or Bard. I think going through the entire game with 2 less DEX or CON than you'd otherwise have is just too painful for an end-of-game payoff that's not that big.

Maybe I'll re-evaluate the efficacy of multiclassing once WotC releases another INT or CON-based full caster, but generally I feel that even end-of-game multiclassing will generally put you behind. If you have magical items in your game and you really, really want something like Armor of Agathys I would just prep a couple of Rings of Spell Storing and attune-swap them during short rests.


Fair enough. I've never played a wizard to high Tier 3 / Tier 4, so maybe I will feel the pinch on those 6 and 7 slots as I'm getting there and decide to just stick Wizard. But since my goal is to be an endgame Shapechanging grappler, to be honest I can't see any way those extra slots would compare to Athletics expertise. I admit I am probably an edge case, though (I really don't care about melee effectiveness outside of endgame grappling, and am content to be a backline wizard with some neat bladesinger perks until then).

For Armor of Agathys, if I ring of spell store it, I'm spending an attunement slot for at max a L5 Armor of Agathys (and that's if I am adventuring with a warlock with L5 slots -- not something I can rely on). Swapping attunement slots takes two short rests (one to focus on an item for an hour to unattune, one to focus on the new item for an hour to attune). I do have access to the Harmonius Ring of Spell storing, which would shave that down to one short rest plus one minute, but still overall this seems like a of risk and sacrifice just to enable one more 6 or 7 slot per day. Again, I admit I'm an edge case here so it's entirely possible for most folks those last two slots (plus ASI, plus Signature Spell) far outweigh what they'd gain from a dip.



Having some sort of concentration booster really is a big deal and you should have one by level 8 or so. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?596207-GUIDE-Inquisitor-Lim-s-Bladesinger-and-Wizard-Guide-Xanathar-s-Edition/page3&p=7269972&viewfull=1#post7269972)

If you're playing in a home game and you get a stat-replacement item, then yes, you can focus on something else. However, the thing about using stat replacement items is that they eat up your attunement slot. You can do some hotswapping with attunement items to minimize the load, but Adventurer's League drops some seriously good magical items. I don't know if it's possible to get these three items legally (I never look at hardcover material until after the adventure is over, and I don't look at DDAL modules, period) but imagine if you found yourself unable to use the trinity of an Ioun Stone of Mastery, Robe of the Archmagi, and a Staff of Power because you had to reserve two of your items for a Headband of Intellect and an Amulet of Health.

Nothing's guaranteed and I consider it a very acceptable risk, unlike multiclassing, but it is something to consider.

Excellent points, thank you. Really I need to weigh what that attunement slot costs me, against the benefit of not having to spend stat points and ASIs on intelligence --that's a great way to frame it. Would I be willing to pass on one of the trinity? Or would I be willing to drop my Int back down to 13/14 to use it? Both are huge costs. Might still be worth it, but definitely food for thought.

[Kide]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PHB p.114 section Copying into your spellbook says:

For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50gp

So this part from the guide doesn't quite make sense:

Copying spells into your book is both inexpensive and quick; you can copy three fourth-level spells into your book for the cost of 12 hours and 120 gp. You can also copy from scrolls, which is a godsend.

Please do clarify (and you should probably provide clarification for it in the guide as well).

Otherwise a wonderful guide!

Edit: Making a copy of your own spellbook does only cost 1h and 10gp per spell level, was this the mistake?

[Zene]

In the guide, you briefly mention using astral projection to double up on spell slots / consumables. Can you go into detail on this?

My read of astral projection is that it creates a clone-like astral version of you; so it makes sense if that version casts a 6th-level spell, the real you doesn’t lose that slot. However, the spell text also seems to indicate that nothing persists when the astral form goes away. So I’m blanking on how this could be useful in terms of doubling up (except maybe for knowledge gained from divination spells).

Web searches aren’t turning up anything relevant for me either.

[Deathtongue]

Doubling up on consumables is easy to explain. If you have something amazing like a Potion of Giant Size, your astral form uses it and your original keeps the copy.

As for doubling up on spells: Have the astral forms cast the spells on your bodies. Return to your bodies. Profit.

[Zene]

Doubling up on consumables is easy to explain. If you have something amazing like a Potion of Giant Size, your astral form uses it and your original keeps the copy.

As for doubling up on spells: Have the astral forms cast the spells on your bodies. Return to your bodies. Profit.
Yeah, but as I said, per the spell:

nothing persists

[Deathtongue]

Yeah, but as I said, per the spell:

Why do you say that? Effects that happen on your astral form don't persist on your physical body when you return, but there are ways around that.

[Zene]

Why do you say that? Effects that happen on your astral form don't persist on your physical body when you return, but there are ways around that.

I say that because the text of the spell flat-out says nothing persists. "Nothing" has a specific meaning, and "Persists" has a specific meaning. I'm asking, what are the ways around that?

We have now pretty much come back around full circle to my original question.

If the answer is just as simple as "You don't read 'nothing persists' as meaning nothing you do at all persists, and thus spells you cast and potions you drink etc can have persistant effects", then ok I guess--that's cool for you and Inquisitor Lim. But I can't imagine most DMs are going to handwave that as OK.

If there's something I'm missing in the spell or the rulebook that specifically indicates some things persist, despite the spell's line saying nothing persists, then I'd like to know about it --both so I can take advantage of that when I play, and so I can allow it without houseruling when I DM (since I DM Adventurer's League).

[Foxydono]

I have a question, around page 139 there is a 'talent' section. Some of these talents are really good, but are they legal? I can't find the origional source from which the talents come. If you could clarify this I could talk to my DM about the use of these talents.

[Deathtongue]

If there's something I'm missing in the spell or the rulebook that specifically indicates some things persist, despite the spell's line saying nothing persists, then I'd like to know about it --both so I can take advantage of that when I play, and so I can allow it without houseruling when I DM (since I DM Adventurer's League).No, I'm serious. I'm really wondering where you're getting the phrase 'nothing persists'.

This is the closest I could find:

Your astral form is a separate incarnation. Any damage or other effects that apply to it have no effect on your physical body, nor do they persist when you return to it.
But that doesn't mean 'nothing persists'. It means that while you have an astral form, enemies can't double-tap you for damage (nor will damage bleed over when you return) and if your astral form get hit with a Bestow Curse or a Feeblemind it won't transfer over to your original body even when the effect ends.



Some of these talents are really good, but are they legal? I can't find the origional source from which the talents come.None of those effects are legal or even affiliated with WotC. It's third-party material. I got it from this link here:
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/214641/Character-Options-Talents-5E

I did want to include some third-party stuff into my guide, just to mix things up. But after putting the Xanathar's stuff into there I've sort of been at an impasse, as I haven't played much 5E D&D lately. I'm having second thoughts about some of those ratings and I'd like to play another Bladesinger or at least a wizard up through the mid-levels to make sure that's how I really feel about the spells.

[Zene]

No, I'm serious. I'm really wondering where you're getting the phrase 'nothing persists'.

This is the closest I could find:

But that doesn't mean 'nothing persists'. It means that while you have an astral form, enemies can't double-tap you for damage (nor will damage bleed over when you return) and if your astral form get hit with a Bestow Curse or a Feeblemind it won't transfer over to your original body even when the effect ends.


Omg, you are absolutely right. That's embarrassing - I must have been looking at a paraphrased version of the spell. Makes perfect sense the way you described it now. My apologies, and thanks for pointing out the correct text!

[Deathtongue]

I've been doing some theorycrafting with my Bladesinger (I am leveling up yet another one) who, instead of finishing off with Bladesinger levels like I recommend, instead has a slightly lopsided stat array and finishes off with three levels of Sorcerer.

The stat array would be something like STR 8 / WIS 9 / CHA 13 / CON 13 / DEX 16 / INT 16, with an ASI for Resilient: Constitution immediately. You then take three levels of Sorcerer, most likely Celestial Sorcerer.

You lose:
An ASI (ouch)
Spell Mastery (OUCH)
Signature Spells (ouch)
Three spells known.

You gain:
Five more spells known, limited to level 1-2 spells. Since you want to have Shield, Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good, and probably Mage Armor prepared this is a wash. You can manage this by shunting off all of the level 1-2 spells to Sorcerer.
4 more cantrips, including your pick of Guidance.
Retroactive +2d4 to a saving throw or attack roll once per short rest.
Your pick of spells from the Cleric list. Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon, Aid, Healing Word, and Warding Bond for your Simulacrum are your god.
Metamagic. This is the big one. I'm partial to Heightened Spell and Extend Spell, though you can make good arguments for Subtle and Quicken.

Extend spell would let you double-tap on long-lasting buffs like a 7th-level Aid and Foresight and Mind Blank, or make hour-long buffs like True Seeing last you the whole day. It allows you to get around Planar Binding your summons issues. It allows you to get away with combos that are difficult to do, such as slapping a Banishment or Hypnotic Pattern or someone and so your buddy can greet them with a Magic Circle or a Symbol.

[Zene]

I've been doing some theorycrafting with my Bladesinger (I am leveling up yet another one) who, instead of finishing off with Bladesinger levels like I recommend, instead has a slightly lopsided stat array and finishes off with three levels of Sorcerer.

The stat array would be something like STR 8 / WIS 9 / CHA 13 / CON 13 / DEX 16 / INT 16, with an ASI for Resilient: Constitution immediately. You then take three levels of Sorcerer, most likely Celestial Sorcerer.

You lose:
An ASI (ouch)
Spell Mastery (OUCH)
Signature Spells (ouch)
Three spells known.

You gain:
Five more spells known, limited to level 1-2 spells. Since you want to have Shield, Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good, and probably Mage Armor prepared this is a wash. You can manage this by shunting off all of the level 1-2 spells to Sorcerer.
4 more cantrips, including your pick of Guidance.
Retroactive +2d4 to a saving throw or attack roll once per short rest.
Your pick of spells from the Cleric list. Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon, Aid, Healing Word, and Warding Bond for your Simulacrum are your god.
Metamagic. This is the big one. I'm partial to Heightened Spell and Extend Spell, though you can make good arguments for Subtle and Quicken.

Extend spell would let you double-tap on long-lasting buffs like a 7th-level Aid and Foresight and Mind Blank, or make hour-long buffs like True Seeing last you the whole day. It allows you to get around Planar Binding your summons issues. It allows you to get away with combos that are difficult to do, such as slapping a Banishment or Hypnotic Pattern or someone and so your buddy can greet them with a Magic Circle or a Symbol.

This is pretty much my exact plan. For me it’s mainly for Subtle —I just find it insanely useful, especially in the endgame, and especially paired with Wish. But all the other benefits are great, and IMO more than worth the tradeoffs.

I’ll probably take Extended as my other metamagic. Besides the uses you noted, I’m looking forward to dumping leftover spell slots into extended Tiny Servants before long rests. Note though that 1-hour buffs can only be extended to 2 hours, not the whole day.

[Raif]

Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for the guide! Very helpful. About to start playing a bladesinger and your guide helped immensely (as did other members here).


Just wondering - whats your preferred setup for your character (feats/asi's/playstyle)? You've mentioned quite a few that are good, but wondering what you've enjoyed playing.

[Deathtongue]

Even if you're completely backline, you need a concentration-booster by level 8. Resilient: Constitution or Warcaster, though if you play very short workdays Lucky can work. I prefer to use the first ASI to correct lopsided odd stats, max out Intelligence as soon as possible, and finish off with Dexterity.

My preferred playstyle is listed in the guide. Just search for 'Pathfinder' and read the surrounding section.

[Deathtongue]

So apparently the whole 'my Bladesinger isn't doing enough melee DPR, how do I fix this' is making the rounds again. I'd just like to summarize what you have to look forward to.

Now, if your game is going to/starting at a very high level OR you know your game won't get past level 5 or so, I could see people justifying a splash of a level of something else. But as things stand, even if your pot of gold is watching those melee DPR numbers going up (per NADRIGOL for the phrase) you should keep calm and Bladesinger on IMNSHO.

Level 1 - You get major pieces of your Bladesinger at this level: Cantrips, Mage Armor, Shield, and Absorb Elements. If you're playing AL, you'll have to hold off on Absorb Elements at first level, but you will want it. If you're not playing AL, you probably want it at first level to avoid spending one of your precious spells known later on even if it's not immediately useful.
Level 2 - You get Bladesong at this level. Melee is no longer a suicidal choice. If Protection from Evil and Good applies, you become very unhittable. It probably won't apply against monsters of this level. You don't do enough melee damage to justify taking frontline risks except when you're out of resources (which will happen a lot at this level) so it's strictly backup. Don't worry, things get much better.
Level 3 - This is a big level for you. Shadow Blade is a titanic DPR increase for you for the cost of a single spell slot. If you don't have Shadow Blade, you can get Blur. You also get Misty Step; you don't have the spell slots to spam this, but it will increasingly become a vital part of your arsenal from here on out.
Level 4 - It's an ASI! If you started out with an odd Constitution because you're an elf or you wanted to pick up Resilient, it's a badly-needed durability increase for your HP and concentration. You can also put it in DEX for a DPR increase. Or into INT if you're willing to play the long game.
Level 5 - Big level for you. Shadow Blade and Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade gets another dice increase. Meaning, you deal out 4d8+3 damage on a hit. If you had a good weapon already (like a +1 shortsword) you might be more interested in TWF + Haste. 4d8+3 (21 DPR) with likely advantage versus 2d6+1d8+8 (19.5 DPR)? Given that Haste also gives you increased speed, AC, and dexterity saving throws? I'll take it!

You also get Glyph of Warding at this level. The spell slot and gp cost is too prohibitive for you to really use it at this time, but you can use it as a source for buffs. Just spend your short rest/extra hour in a long rest drawing a glyph.
Level 6 - Extra attack. This wasn't a big deal with the SCAG cantrips, but with Shadow Blade (and later Tenser's Transformation) it's a huge deal.
Level 7 - Greater Invisibility. This doesn't contribute as much spike damage as Haste or Shadow Blade, but it's a huge defense increase. If you're using something like Warcaster, you'll also proc the extra damage from Booming Blade AND extra OAs more often with clever positioning.
Level 8 - It's another ASI! Still good.
Level 9 - You get your choice of Animate Objects, Conjure Elemental, or Bigby's Hand for a melee control (OAs and/or grappling) and thus DPR increase. Or you can just use those spells to deal additional damage like a boring person. Still, very nice.
Level 10 - Song of Defense, woot! This completes your Trinity of Defense.
Level 11 - Tenser's Transformation AND Contingency? If you're not using Contingency for Resilient Sphere (which is honestly probably its best use) you can stick a 5th-level Shadow Blade, Haste, or Greater Invisibility in there. Tenser's Transformation is your incentive to dual-wield for an extra 6d12 a round, which is nice.
Level 12 - Woo, another ASI! You will need every ASI you can get your hand on and you'll still feel deprived.
Level 13 - Beat still my heart, for it's Simulacrum time.
Level 14 - +INT damage bonus to all of my melee weapon attacks? Don't mind if I do. A Contingency Shadow Blade + TWF with a vanilla shortsword/scimitar is now doing something like 8d8+1d6+20 (50.5) DPR. Tenser's Transformation? 3d6+20+6d12 (69.5) DPR. For comparison's sake, a GMW Barbarian with reliable access to an extra bonus action attack can expect to do about 6d6+60 (81 DPR) while raging.
Level 15 - Surprisingly, this is the closest thing to a disappointing Melee Bladesinger level. Oh, well, there's always Mind Blank. There's also Demiplane if you want to use Glyph of Warding cheese on top of that, but I can't imagine that going over with most DMs.
Level 16 - Oh, hello there, ASI, how's it hanging?
Level 17 - Shapechange, True Polymorph, Foresight, and Wish. Game over.
Level 18 - How do you follow up with getting Shapechange, True Polymorph, Foresight, and Wish? You follow it up with Spell Mastery. Meaning unlimited Shield and Misty Step.
Level 19 - Come to papa, 5th ASI. I'd need like 8 ASIs before I started feeling like they're ribbon abilities. You also get another Contingency or Tenser's Transformation.
Level 20 - I'm not going to turn down free 3rd level spells. And there's another 7th level spell slot to play with.

[PhantomSoul]

Level 6 - Extra attack. This wasn't a big deal with the SCAG cantrips, but with Shadow Blade (and later Tenser's Transformation) it's a huge deal.


A note for Tenser's Transformation: Tenser's gives you Extra Attack, but doesn't stack with the Bladesinger's Extra Attack.



Level 19 - Come to papa, 5th ASI. I'd need like 8 ASIs before I started feeling like they're ribbon abilities.


So very true! (And even then, you'd enjoy being able to take some feats!)

[Kaliayev]

Imo, war caster value diminishes a bit on a bladesinger, while shadow blade's value is a tad underappreciated. The advantage on con saving throws remains war caster's main draw, but the other aspects lose some value. Shadow blade makes the somatic weapon aspect somewhat redundant. In a given combat, you'll likely have your focus in one hand and your shadow blade in the other. With your final attack, you can simply throw the shadow blade at an enemy, freeing up one hand for somatic casting. You can then recall the shadow blade whenever you want as a bonus action. This gives the bladesinger a ton of versatility and dpr, without even needing war caster's somatic benefit. After you throw your shadow blade, you can cast any reaction spell you need to. On your next turn, you can recall the blade and repeat. This eats your bonus action, but you probably didn't have much use for it if you're in melee. If you find yourself needing to withdraw from melee, don't recall the blade, misty step + move away, and use one of your cantrips/heal up (not necessarily in that order). On your following turns, you're free to cast whatever you want. Of course, this utility assumes that you, or your DM, hold yourself accountable to the component casting rules.

Regarding the reactionary OA spell, the main draw of this war caster aspect is guaranteeing the maximum number of dice on booming blade, but that's more attractive to an EK, who has fewer reaction spells. As a wizard with more slots and higher level spells, you already have a number of reaction spells that make a reactionary OA spell significantly less attractive. Absorb elements, shield, counterspell, and soul cage all have incredible value and you'll probably be using one of them for your reaction in most rounds. The reactionary OA spell gives you more options, but your reaction for a given round should probably be committed to another task. The main draw of this war caster aspect is guaranteeing the maximum number of dice on booming blade, but that's more attractive to an EK, who has fewer reaction spells.

Given all the above, resilient con actually goes up in value compared to war caster. The latter saving throw advantage can be gained through other means and is a little lackluster because crit failing isn't a factor with saving throws. When you combine your int mod, con mod, and proficiency bonus, resilient con lets you automatically pass your saving throw at higher levels of damage. Assuming 20 int, 16 con, and level 17, you won't have to worry about concentration rolls unless someone deals at least 30 damage in one attack. Of course, that could be enough to incapacitate you if you're already low on hit points.

p.s. This doesn't take multi-classing into account, which can make both resilient con and war caster redundant.

[Deathtongue]

As far as multiclassing for saves go, until someone releases a class that boosts both WIS -and- CON I consider it a wash. You need good or at least passable wisdom saving throws in this game, almost as much as you need good CON saves.

Now, going back to Warcaster: I thought I would've preferred Resilient, but AL has made it more useful than I thought. For one, I have a flametongue shortsword on my Bladesinger and a +2 shortsword in the other hand. Tenser's Transformation, Haste, and Greater Invis are all competitive over Shadow Blade (which really shines in a no-magic-items game). It is helpful so long as I don't NEED to cast a spell with material components, which I can usually avoid.

That said, two tricks really made Warcaster 'worth it' for me. One was getting extra OAs with Greater Invisibility. My tactic was to go invisible and go up to an odd square next to an enemy or three. They had to guess the square I was in.

I'd really like to try this out with Darkness/Programmed Image + True Seeing, but, it's heavy on the spell slots. Maybe if I can get a Gem of Seeing...

The other trick is that I have a Ring of Free Action (my attuned items on my highest-level Bladesinger are a Staff of Power(!), Flametongue Shortsword, and the aforementioned Ring of Free Action). Ring of Free Action lets me do things like cast Black Tentacles (very risky, though!) / Web / Transmute Rock and safely stand right in the middle of it. It's great lockdown, and a lot of the monsters I end up fighting, after using their action to break free, try to move out of it. That's another OA, which can not only be used for Booming Blade but also for, say, Grease or Cause Fear.

[Kaliayev]

My post was meant for the bladesinger guides in general (iirc, IL overlooks shadow blade's real utility), but you've got a build that works for you, so kudos. Others might be looking to explore different avenues, and the flexibility of shadow blade helps with that. War caster becomes less of a requirement, giving bladesingers more options for growth.

Additionally, I don't really think Barbarian deserves such a low rating. I'm generally in the pure bladesinger camp, unless mystic is available, so take this with a grain of salt. There are three classes that give constitution proficiency: fighter, barbarian, and sorcerer. That proficiency is a huge asset for a caster. Obviously, one has to start in those classes to get the benefit. With barbarian, there's a significant hit point leap compared to a wizard's start. Unarmored defense can be handy in a lot of situations and save you the spell slot you would otherwise use on mage armor. At level two, reckless attack is fairly undesirable, unless you've got an effect that negates the attack advantage given to your enemies while also not giving you advantage on attacks. The real attraction at level two is danger sense, which makes it harder for you to die against aoe attacks. One could even justify going to level three for bear totem, but I'll come back to that.

While raging is guaranteed to be useless to you with a traditional approach, it can be an asset. If your party needs to pass an athletics or strength check, you can burn a rage to get things done, potentially freeing up buffs others might be forced to use up in such a situation. There's also the option of temporarily flipping the wizard class on its head. That is, burn through your rages and then switch to casting. With resistance to all but psychic damage, thanks to that aforementioned bear totem grab at level three, you can uncharacteristically soak up a lot of damage for a wizard. Obviously, this is a more viable approach against a BBEG who can dish out a great deal of damage and soak up damage with its legendary resistances early on in combat or a long day filled with a lot of encounters. This can also be useful in a small group, where you're more likely to have players trying to fill multiple roles. The barbarian dip is generally going to be harder to mold than a sorcerer or fighter dip, but this unorthodox approach does have some merits.

That being said, only one of the constitution proficiency classes can realistically be pursued within the confines of AL. The MAD demands of multi-classing into barbarian or sorcerer are too great for AL. This MAD restriction applies to every class but fighter and rogue, which doesn't contribute anywhere near as much as fighter. In AL, if you're not going pure bladesinger, you're dipping fighter.

[Deathtongue]

My post was meant for the bladesinger guides in general (iirc, IL overlooks shadow blade's real utility), but you've got a build that works for you, so kudos. Others might be looking to explore different avenues, and the flexibility of shadow blade helps with that. War caster becomes less of a requirement, giving bladesingers more options for growth.Oh, definitely. But a big part of my guide assumed that magical items dropped more frequently in actual games than assumed on theorycraft boards, so while I'm still giving Shadow Blade a good rating (I think I should rate it a bit higher) I'm not making it the fulcrum of any Bladesinger.


That proficiency is a huge asset for a caster. Obviously, one has to start in those classes to get the benefit.It would be, but Barbarian gives up WIS save proficiency. You need WIS save proficiency. You will regret it if you don't have it. Wizards get it, barbarians don't. You could always patch it up with Resilient, what do you gain compared to a wizard who did the same?


With barbarian, there's a significant hit point leap compared to a wizard's start.+6 hit points isn't anything to sneeze at, true.


Unarmored defense can be handy in a lot of situations and save you the spell slot you would otherwise use on mage armor.The problem is that you're constantly behind on spell slots until character level 12. And by then, you don't really care about saving a spell slot for Mage Armor.


At level two, reckless attack is fairly undesirable, unless you've got an effect that negates the attack advantage given to your enemies while also not giving you advantage on attacks.If you're not doing GWM/SS, getting on-demand advantage isn't that huge of a deal. It is a DPR spike, but it's not worth being behind two levels in wizard.


The real attraction at level two is danger sense, which makes it harder for you to die against aoe attacks.Absorb Elements/Song of Defense also makes it harder for you to die against most AoE attacks. You can use SoD in a rage, but not AA. And because you're behind on spell slots until level 13, you could've just sacrificed a high-level spell slot for that extra hit points.


One could even justify going to level three for bear totem, but I'll come back to that.

While raging is guaranteed to be useless to you with a traditional approach, it can be an asset. If your party needs to pass an athletics or strength check, you can burn a rage to get things done, potentially freeing up buffs others might be forced to use up in such a situation.[/quote]I'd rather just take a level of rogue for Expertise: Athletics. A level of rogue for Expertise: Athletics straight-up opens grappling as an option for any Bladesinger, even those with 8 STR. And because Enlarge Person is so vital for any long-term grappler, the barbarian bonus doesn't even really help -- especially because the bonus is only going to last for one round unless you have someone hitting you. Enlarge lasts for a minute, and you also have Polymorph for Giant Ape action.

Barbarian does help with regular, non-Athletics strength checks, but as mentioned wizards get Enlarge Person.


There's also the option of temporarily flipping the wizard class on its head. That is, burn through your rages and then switch to casting. With resistance to all but psychic damage, thanks to that aforementioned bear totem grab at level three, you can uncharacteristically soak up a lot of damage for a wizard.Soak? Absorb Elements + Song of Defense + Contingency + Glyph of Warding: Stoneskin + Investiture of Store + even Tenser's Transformation will take care of that. Rage precludes using any of those options (so you'll be ending up eating MORE damage since you can't Shield, Blur, or Protection from Evil and Good) and also delays their acquisition. I'd only consider it for workdays that regularly lasted 10+ encounters.


The barbarian dip is generally going to be harder to mold than a sorcerer or fighter dip, but this unorthodox approach does have some merits.Look, I'm sorry to be blunt, but it doesn't. Unlike, say, Sorcerer or Rogue it doesn't even add any additional utility. You're behind 1-3 spell levels for some brute bonuses. That's a major hit to offense and defense and utility and what you gain in return just isn't worth it once you reach level 8+. If you look at your spellcasting as part of your defensive package, you'll see it just isn't worth it.

[Kaliayev]

It would be, but Barbarian gives up WIS save proficiency. You need WIS save proficiency. You will regret it if you don't have it. Wizards get it, barbarians don't. You could always patch it up with Resilient, what do you gain compared to a wizard who did the same?

Fair enough, but it kinda depends on what you value more in your build. An elf presumably values the con proficiency more, since an elf has resistance to charms. Fear is still a factor, but an elf has more leeway on the wis proficiency front.


The problem is that you're constantly behind on spell slots until character level 12. And by then, you don't really care about saving a spell slot for Mage Armor.

Like I said, I'm generally in the pure bladesinger camp, with the exception of mystic dipping. I would happily mystic dip at a number of different levels, though I certainly wouldn't choose it for level one. For the other classes, you're giving up an substantive hp and proficiency boost by not starting the dip at level one. It's a trade-off between spells and dipping extras that I'm generally not willing to make. If I were to make that trade-off, barbarian would certainly rank higher than cleric, druid, monk, and warlock.


Soak? Absorb Elements + Song of Defense + Contingency + Glyph of Warding: Stoneskin + Investiture of Store + even Tenser's Transformation will take care of that. Rage precludes using any of those options (so you'll be ending up eating MORE damage since you can't Shield, Blur, or Protection from Evil and Good) and also delays their acquisition. I'd only consider it for workdays that regularly lasted 10+ encounters.

You're presumably burning a lot of resources doing all of the above, but they are certainly an option, especially if your DM is generous with downtime and long rests. However, this multi-class combination also counters antimagic fields, which wizards are incredibly vulnerable to (less so for bladesingers). In such an encounter, combining song of defense and bear totem raging turns you into a big old sponge that can help eliminate the source of your misery. This actually makes the 3/10+ barb/bs quite compelling, albeit in atypical circumstances.


For one, I have a flametongue shortsword on my Bladesinger and a +2 shortsword in the other hand. Tenser's Transformation, Haste, and Greater Invis are all competitive over Shadow Blade (which really shines in a no-magic-items game). It is helpful so long as I don't NEED to cast a spell with material components, which I can usually avoid.

Transformation and haste both require material components, so they aren't as competitive if you're dual wielding. You would have to spend a couple turns swapping items in your hands, which isn't a huge deal, but it does delay some of your damage output. Again, this assumes that you or your DM care about component limitations. If we're taking magic items into account, haste and invisibility are possible through those, making them less competitive as spells.


That said, two tricks really made Warcaster 'worth it' for me. One was getting extra OAs with Greater Invisibility. My tactic was to go invisible and go up to an odd square next to an enemy or three. They had to guess the square I was in.

If you're using flame tongue's bonus damage, and I see no reason to attune to it otherwise, you're a source of light. Whether that is blocked by invisibility is a matter of debate (I don't think Crawford has addressed this, but I could be wrong), and a DM could rule against you. Creatures would be able to tell where the light originates and there's also the possibility that they can hear you (ignore if you don't attack after moving next to them and have those special boots). The reactionary OA spell would also reveal your location. If any of the above conditions apply, anything attacking you would be able to tell where you are, though they would still have disadvantage on the attack. Ultimately, you may want to consider trading for a different magical sword.

p.s. As far as Barb/BS goes, you place barb beneath every other class for dipping. I'm just presenting a generally overlooked option.

p.p.s. I seem to have gotten the two guides mixed up while reviewing them, so some of the above critiques are invalid. Please excuse those mistakes.

[Silkensword]

the section on "glyph of warding" could use an entry for mage armor; i've grown used to using leftover spellslots in the evenings to start the new day with mage armor and full resources! :)

[dejarnjc]

the section on "glyph of warding" could use an entry for mage armor; i've grown used to using leftover spellslots in the evenings to start the new day with mage armor and full resources! :)

Seems kinda expensive though since it's 200gp each time you do it.

[RSP]

Put me in the camp of “Shadow Blade is underappreciated.”

It’s a significant DPS increase for a BS, at low cost (2nd level slot that scales well), that I feel compares well with its competition.

Essentially, SB ups the average damage per hit from 8.5 to 13, which is a nice boost (not factoring in crits). At 6th, when extra attack comes online, comparing Haste to SB looks like:

2nd level SB: 2d8+4=13 (x2 Attacks: 26)
3rd level Haste: 1d8+4=8.5 (x3 Attacks: 25.5)

Haste isn’t going to increase damage until level 14 adds Int to each hit. Meanwhile, by using that 2nd level slot, you have your 3rd level slots saved for Counterspell, Dispel Magic, whatever (or cast SB out of that 3rd for an additional 4.5 per hit).

Haste provides other benefits, notably the +2 AC and double movement, however, BS already sport great AC and additional movement - these benefits are probably overkill at this point. The counter to those benefits, though, is the loss of an action to cast it (vs SB as a bonus action to still get attacks) and the horrible loss of a round when it drops (really bad if still in combat).

Further, it saves an attunement slot vs using a +dam dice magic weapon (and psychic damage will bypass the vast majority of resistances, particularly the P, S, B ones which are common).

Against Greater Inv, the dps upgrade is better (Haste’s extra attack helps it try to keep up), though GI certainly helps with defense (Disadvantage to Attacks against) in a very significant way (1/400 crits chance vs 1/20). If all out defense is what you want, it’s tough to argue against GI, though again, it’s essentially defense vs offense argument, and generally in 5e it’s better to end the threat earlier than trying to outlast it. And GI becomes less effective as enemies get more abilities that allow them to see thru illusions.

Once you talk about 5th level slots, the dph difference is 22 to 8.5, though you start dealing with improved spells. And at 6th level slots, Tenser’s wins out.

At the end of the day, SB, as a 2nd level spell slot ends up being a much more worthwhile investment as your melee spell, while it saves higher slots for control effects (or just upcasting for even better damage or absorbing damage). It works very well on melee Bladesingers.

Just my opinion though.

Edit: forgot to add one if the best features of SB: Advantage on attacks in dim light or darkness. As a BS, you have Darkvision, there’s no reason to be exploring dungeons and not be in at least dim light. The SB isn’t just great dph, it’s usually going to involve Advantage throughout the fight too.

[Lolzyking]

I'm going to attempt to sell you on the merits of arcane trickster 9, bladesinger 11, using dr. Shadowblade upcast.

[Lenir]

Firstly, thank you for your great guide! I am building up my BS in my current campain.

I am fairly new to the game, so please bare with me in case I got something wrong here.



Level 5 - Big level for you. Shadow Blade and Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade gets another dice increase. Meaning, you deal out 4d8+3 damage on a hit. If you had a good weapon already (like a +1 shortsword) you might be more interested in TWF + Haste. 4d8+3 (21 DPR) with likely advantage versus 2d6+1d8+8 (19.5 DPR)? Given that Haste also gives you increased speed, AC, and dexterity saving throws? I'll take it!

In the guide you wrote for Booming Blade "Hit a target, do regular melee weapon damage, then do 1d8 scaling tier minus 1 thunder damage." - that is not at all reflected in the spell description. You simply do no damage except your melee damage on your hit (before 5th lvl). Only IF the target moves you do damage with the cantrip. If you would do damage additionally to your hit without a condition such as moving afterwards or having a 2nd target nearby, these cantrips would be far better than any other cantrip at this lvl.

I do not understand how you calculate 4d8+3 DMG on a hit with any of these cantrips.

As I see it, with Booming Blade you hit with your weapon (Rapier) for
1d8+3 (DEX modifyer) - "On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn."
+ 1d8 from 5th level - "At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 thunder damage to the target"

giving us 2d8+3 on a hit and an additional 2d8 IF the target moves - "and the damage the target takes for moving increases to 2d8"
Even with Shadow Blade that is only a 3d8+3 on a hit

With Green-Flame Blade it is
1d8+3 (DEX modifyer) "On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it."
+ 1d8 from 5th level - "At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target"
giving us 2d8+3 on a hit and 1d8+3 (INT mod for wiz) on the second target.

Please show me where I am wrong.

[Deathtongue]

Please show me where I am wrong.

You upcast Shadow Blade out of a level 3 slot. That's why I said level 5 is a big level, even though you can get it as early as level 3.

[Fedifensor]

I'm kind of surprised Elven Accuracy is black. You can get a +1 to either Dexterity or Intelligence, which means you can start with Dex 17, Int 16 and then go to Dex 18 at 4th level. Bladesingers have advantage on their attacks a lot, thanks to Shadow Blade or Greater Invisibility, so getting to reroll one of the dice makes you even more likely to hit - even a pair of 1s can be overcome.

Fey Teleportation allows you to get +1 Intelligence, and you learn the misty step spell. Does this mean it counts as a prepared spell without taking up one of your prepared spells from wizard? Either way, a free misty step every short rest will save you at least one 2nd level slot per day, and possibly several (if you have multiple short rests).

[Mikaleus]

Really good guide and last few comments have been good as it looks like I’ll be taking another wizard into a group. Thanks 👍

[spartan_ah]

Level 13 bladesinger here...my DM asked me for 1 magical item I want...
I have my miinblade (which I can upgrade if I'll ask), staff of defense and homebrew cloak +1 to all saving throws.
what sould I ask? I tend towards staff om magi

[Fryy]

Level 13 bladesinger here...my DM asked me for 1 magical item I want...
I have my miinblade (which I can upgrade if I'll ask), staff of defense and homebrew cloak +1 to all saving throws.
what sould I ask? I tend towards staff om magi

Since you mentioned staves... Staff of Power gives +2 to AC and can be wielded one-handed.

[Xenken]

I must say that I found this guide to be incredibly insightful, even if my experience doesn't match with what you say about encounter/rest time. (Mostly because my DM's keep shafting me with gritty resting shenanigans). Still really good, though. Gets the wizard hype up and the juices flowing. Notable takeaways for me are Telekinesis and the Interacting with Other Classes segment (both unique and super good fuel for other guides).

That said, some things I'd like to mention:

Contingency: The spell takes effect only on you. Telekinesis/Bigby's Hand can only affect you and Minute Meteors can only hurt you.

Charm Person, Suggestion, et al have noticeable components. If a wizard tries to cast one of them around creatures who are knowledgeable enough to recognize that magic was just used to influence their co-patriots, then the social situation has just been completely botched. Similarly, if the target notices, then you should probably consider yourself on their hit list from this point forward. Considering that Subtle Social Sorcerers stake their entire careers on avoiding this, it's probably worth mentioning and maybe even changing rank for.

Polymorph into Swarm of Cranium Rats: You can't do this. "Beast" isn't left to it's normal english meaning in 5th. It's a creature type. "Swarm of x Beasts" is also a creature type. They are not the same. Allowing someone to Polymorph into a swarm is exactly as correct as allowing them to poly into an Owlbear or Winter Wolf. Doesn't at all change how great the spell is, though. (Signed, A Druid player who knows way too much about this because they've had to play the Wild Shape rules game for months.)

Phantom Steed: This lasts an hour, not a minute. You could ritual cast it 4 times and still have time to do stuff until your first steed runs out. You could ritual cast a Steed while riding on a Steed you cast half an hour ago. So it's already great overland travel.
Also, it's explicitly a creature. It has action options. Even if it isn't as handy as your familiar considering that it's being ridden, it can still Dodge, Disengage, and Dash! A technical read (backed by Sage Advice) indicates that since you can only ride the steed for the duration, that you can no longer ride the speed once it takes damage and the spell ends. (Even then, it's still quite good in combat. Just not amazing.) But if your DM thinks like you do and says that the Steed can be ridden during the dismount time? Then things get Silly. Really, really siily. Has your DM ever tried to ambush your party with melee or >80 foot reach monsters only to cry as said party runs away at 200 movespeed, kiting the monsters for 10 rounds even after their steeds took damage? That kind of gas has got to be at least Blue, if not Sky Blue.

Speaking of Sage Advice, you should probably mention the one that comes up multiple times (like here: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/09/can-a-spell-like-maximilians-earthen-grasp-or-telekinesis-be-twinned/) about spells targeting everyone affected by them. This kills your Find Steed>Eyebite and Find Steed>Sunbeam setups.

Astral Projection: I don't understand the "double magic items" trick you're talking about, if you or someone else could explain it for me that would be very welcome.

Thanks for taking the time to read this! I'm whipping up some text on destroying lategames with Wish + True Poly so when I get that put together I'll probably send it here.

Good luck, Wizards!

[Deathtongue]

Looks like I've come out of retirement and started updating this guide again. I obviously don't have Tasha's yet, so my updates have been focused on books released between Tasha's and Xanathar's. Namely, the Wildemount, Acquisitions Incorporated, and Rime books.

Long story short: I find the change to Bladesinger kind of obnoxious from a balance standpoint. They made it notably weaker in T1 -- the level range in which casters have parity with martials and are usually modestly worse -- and made it MUCH stronger from T2 onwards. That change to Extra Attack is straight-up liquid awesome, especially in conjunction with Haste. Double Booming Blade just scratches the surface of cheese. Yes, I would like to be able to spam Blade Ward and still have 2-3 attacks per round. Yes, I would like to be able to soften enemies up with a Mind Sliver + Non-concentration spell. Yes, I would like for Haste to become the new Melf's Minute Meteors from T3 onwards.

Moreover, variant Human immediately solves its MAD problem as well by letting you have that all-valuable +8 bonus to Concentration Saving throws by level 8, and at level 9 you can do it for 98% of workdays.

That said, one of the things I appreciated about Bladesinger in T1 is that Bladesong let you stretch out your spell slots and play as an off-tank. No matter how little gas that was left in the tank, at the end of the day you still had 19 AC and a decent melee attack. Not anymore. Now in T1 you're FORCED to play backline caster in order to have enough Bladesongs to get you through a typical workday. You can't have melee buttkicking as a primary schtick anymore until late T2, whereupon you become even more powerful than before. And Bladesinger was already one of the best T2 melee classes -- now it's looking like they're going to be one of the best T3 melee classes as well.

[Deathtongue]

I'm kind of surprised Elven Accuracy is black. You can get a +1 to either Dexterity or Intelligence, which means you can start with Dex 17, Int 16 and then go to Dex 18 at 4th level. Bladesingers have advantage on their attacks a lot, thanks to Shadow Blade or Greater Invisibility, so getting to reroll one of the dice makes you even more likely to hit - even a pair of 1s can be overcome.My big thing about Elven Accuracy is that if you're playing point buy, you're better off funneling two stat points to some other stat like, say, Constitution than starting with a 17/16. For example, playing a High Elf with a 17/16/15 DEX/CON/INT split, with their first ASI to bump DEX to 18 and CON to 16. You could do a Resilient: CON plus Elven Accuracy Combo, but then your intelligence is at 16 until late game.

I strongly recommend maxing out your Intelligence and Dexterity ASAP. On this wizard subclass, each bonus improves a bunch of parameters across the board. Intelligence boosts your skills, your concentration saving throw bonus, eventually your melee damage, your spells prepared, and your save DC, so not having at least an 18 in it by level 8 is, to me, unacceptable. But Dexterity boosts a lot of stuff you care about as well. This leaves very few room for feats aside from one of Resilient: CON and Warcaster, which I view as mandatory.

Elven Accuracy is better if you roll for stats, but then, most Bladesinger feats become better if you roll stats.

[bendking]

What do you think about the Mobile feat?
I find that now being able to land Booming Blade with the extra attack makes Mobile extremely valuable for a free hit-and-run on enemies that aren't yet locked in melee with an ally, and is overall quite conducive to the playstyle of a relatively squishy melee.
I like Mobile even more with an Arcane Trickster MC since it lets you pull off a Disengage without wasting your BA on Cunning Action, and saving it for things such as Dash, letting you zoom across the battlefield and dictating the range of engagement with an 80ft. movement per turn. It also means you have a free disengage in the first couple of turns in which you activate Bladesong and Shadowblade and thus wouldn't even be able to BA Disengage.
That said, if you plan on abusing Phantom Steed, the Mobile feat is much less useful.

[Deathtongue]

What do you think about the Mobile feat?
I find that now being able to land Booming Blade with the extra attack makes Mobile extremely valuable for a free hit-and-run on enemies that aren't yet locked in melee with an ally, and is overall quite conducive to the playstyle of a relatively squishy melee.I think it's a hugely overrated feat for the reasons you described. The tactic of 'run in, smack 'em with a Booming Blade, then force them to chase after you for an extra 2d8/3d8 damage' is really small beer, and that's usually the best use I see for it. And when those 4th and 5th level spells hit and you have REAL crush-the-battlefield spells like Watery Sphere and Transmute Rock, it's a redundant or wasteful tactic. You have five ASIs and one of them is going towards War Caster/Resilient, you don't have the bandwidth to pick up feats that are only going to get worse as the game goes on.

Granted, most people play in T1/T2 where that tactic is the most viable, so I adjusted my rating accordingly. If you rolled for stats and the game isn't going to get past level 5-6, then yes, Mobile is pretty all right for when you get it. And more people play that kind of game than any kind of T3 game. But if I judged game effects that were as useful at level 11 - 20 as they are at levels 1 - 10, I'd definitely rate Mobile 2 out of 5 stars.


I like Mobile even more with an Arcane Trickster MC since it lets you pull off a Disengage without wasting your BA on Cunning Action, and saving it for things such as Dash, letting you zoom across the battlefield and dictating the range of engagement with an 80ft. movement per turn. It also means you have a free disengage in the first couple of turns in which you activate Bladesong and Shadowblade and thus wouldn't even be able to BA Disengage.I also don't like the Arcane Trickster multiclass because you're subject to some very serious bonus action clog. If what you want is more speed, can I suggest taking more levels in Bladesinger for Longstrider, Thunder Step, Misty Step, Fly, and especially Haste instead?

As said in another thread:
"I'm not so sure about the synergy. The Bladesinger and the Arcane Trickster are already subject to serious bonus action clog what with between Bladesong, OG Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations."

[bendking]

I think it's a hugely overrated feat for the reasons you described. The tactic of 'run in, smack 'em with a Booming Blade, then force them to chase after you for an extra 2d8/3d8 damage' is really small beer, and that's usually the best use I see for it. And when those 4th and 5th level spells hit and you have REAL crush-the-battlefield spells like Watery Sphere and Transmute Rock, it's a redundant or wasteful tactic. You have five ASIs and one of them is going towards War Caster/Resilient, you don't have the bandwidth to pick up feats that are only going to get worse as the game goes on.

Granted, most people play in T1/T2 where that tactic is the most viable, so I adjusted my rating accordingly. If you rolled for stats and the game isn't going to get past level 5-6, then yes, Mobile is pretty all right for when you get it. And more people play that kind of game than any kind of T3 game. But if I judged game effects that were as useful at level 11 - 20 as they are at levels 1 - 10, I'd definitely rate Mobile 2 out of 5 stars.
Point taken. Perhaps it's better reserved for the AT/BS MC (9/11), not for a pure Bladesinger who gets the spells you mentioned. However, I will reconsider it even for that build.


I also don't like the Arcane Trickster multiclass because you're subject to some very serious bonus action clog. If what you want is more speed, can I suggest taking more levels in Bladesinger for Longstrider, Thunder Step, Misty Step, Fly, and especially Haste instead?

As said in another thread:
"I'm not so sure about the synergy. The Bladesinger and the Arcane Trickster are already subject to serious bonus action clog what with between Bladesong, OG Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations."
I don't agree here. Regarding "Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations", those are already an issue with Arcane Trickster, so you're only really adding Bladesong to the mix here.
If you think of the multiclass in the context of enhancing the Arcane Trickster, it's highly viable, and I would say almost objectively better than a pure AT. My preferred progression is BS 6 --> AT 9 --> BS 11 for a smooth damage curve.
The build's purpose is the have a higher melee DPR than either a pure BS or pure AT (disregarding AT potential off-turn Sneak Attack which may or may not happen), which it accomplishes.
Also, the spells you mentioned that boost speed are already achieved as early as possible in the aforementioned build.

[Deathtongue]

I don't agree here. Regarding "Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations", those are already an issue with Arcane Trickster, so you're only really adding Bladesong to the mix here.What do you mean, 'only' adding? How many rounds does it take you to get your 'okay, I'm ready to kick butt' combo set up? How does it look round-by-round?


If you think of the multiclass in the context of enhancing the Arcane Trickster, it's highly viable, and I would say almost objectively better than a pure AT.That's purely because of Linear Warriors / Quadratic Wizards, though. Multiclassing most any kind of full spellcaster is better than pure AT. Because of the bonus action clog issue, Bladesinger doesn't really add anything that, say, War Mage or Divine Soul wouldn't.


The build's purpose is the have a higher melee DPR than either a pure BS or pure AT (disregarding AT potential off-turn Sneak Attack which may or may not happen), which it accomplishes. Does it? I mean, disregarding game effects like Summon Undead Spirit or Animate Objects or frickin' Simulacrum -- let alone the T4 spells -- there's still the issue of combo set up. 9 levels of Arcane Trickster gives you an additional 5d6 damage per round assuming you're not using off-turn shenanigans... how is that superior DPR-wise to a Melf's Minute Meteors or a Bigby's Hand or even a Haste jammed into a Contingency?

[bendking]

What do you mean, 'only' adding? How many rounds does it take you to get your 'okay, I'm ready to kick butt' combo set up? How does it look round-by-round?
Depends on which level we're talking about, but generally, 1st turn is Bladesong + non-concentration spell, and 2nd is Shadow Blade and go to town. Same as Bladesinger, one more than pure AT.


That's purely because of Linear Warriors / Quadratic Wizards, though. Multiclassing most any kind of full spellcaster is better than pure AT. Because of the bonus action clog issue, Bladesinger doesn't really add anything that, say, War Mage or Divine Soul wouldn't.
I disagree there, Bladesinger adds more to AT than War Mage, and definitely a lot more than Divine Soul (because that would be even more MAD). However, I don't really care that much to argue this exact point.
Anyway, I was simply saying that looking at this build from the perspective of making a better AT makes it appealing. If you're going to be looking at it from the perspective of overall power then of course pure BS will be better, because Wizard is the most broken class in the game.


Does it? I mean, disregarding game effects like Summon Undead Spirit or Animate Objects or frickin' Simulacrum -- let alone the T4 spells -- there's still the issue of combo set up. 9 levels of Arcane Trickster gives you an additional 5d6 damage per round assuming you're not using off-turn shenanigans... how is that superior DPR-wise to a Melf's Minute Meteors or a Bigby's Hand or even a Haste jammed into a Contingency?
First off, I did disregard broken things like Simulacrum, because frankly, that is the most broken spell in the game, so there's no sport in comparing any class to Wizard past level 13 if you're going to be using things like that. I have no qualm saying a Wizard of level 13 and above has more DPR than this build if you pull all the breaks.
My calculations put AT 9/BS 11, casting Shadow Blade at 6th level and below, at 57.6 DPR vs an AC of 19. What's the DPR on Melf's Minute Meteors or Bigby's Hand at this level?

[Deathtongue]

Depends on which level we're talking about, but generally, 1st turn is Bladesong + non-concentration spell, and 2nd is Shadow Blade and go to town. Same as Bladesinger, one more than pure AT.What non-concentration spell? You're a level 13 Bladesinger/AT, what spells are you casting? Note that the Bladesinger has a huge edge because they have the spell slots to be throwing about concentration spells the first round and then dropping concentration if it doesn't stick.


I disagree there, Bladesinger adds more to AT than War Mage, and definitely a lot more than Divine Soul (because that would be even more MAD). However, I don't really care that much to argue this exact point.Why do you want to change topics? Action advantage is everything. War Mage gives a +4-6 bonus to saving throws as a reaction. Divine Soul doesn't give you this save bonus as consistently, but it comes with Healing Word, Guidance, and Warding Bond (awesome if you have a familiar), Aid, and Silence. And this is the level of the game where if you don't make saving throws, you are going to be sitting out one or even multiple turns. It advances your spell slots without getting in the way of your standard/bonus actions. War Mage even gets you an initiative boost, which can be pretty huge depending on if you rolled stats or use a Headband of Intellect.

Compared to that, in a 2-4 round combat, what exactly does Bladesinger give you that War Mage doesn't? It's not NOTHING, but until T4 or so (when you get the New and Improved Extra Attack) it doesn't give


First off, I did disregard broken things like Simulacrum, because frankly, that is the most broken spell in the game, so there's no sport in comparing any class to Wizard past level 13 if you're going to be using things like that. I have no qualm saying a Wizard of level 13 and above has more DPR than this build if you pull all the breaks.I mean, fine, but if you're discounting Simulacrum because it's way overpowered then there's no point in talking about builds past level 16 anyway. Because wizards get multiple spells as good or even better than Simulacrum in T4.


My calculations put AT 9/BS 11, casting Shadow Blade at 6th level and below, at 57.6 DPR vs an AC of 19. What's the DPR on Melf's Minute Meteors or Bigby's Hand at this level?
1) Could you break that down for me? Like, break it down in two to four rounds and how the DPR scales.

2) Level 20? Seriously? How about a level that's NOT at the end of the game, a level in which you will actually get to enjoy your build? Like, say, Level 13? And how much more DPR is this than a straight-Bladesinger. Since you're not abusing Haste or Sentinel, AT only adds +5d6 per round. That's pretty sad -- a Bigby's in a Contingency can match that. Or if you want to keep your Concentration open, you can always fast-cast Haste and use the Tasha's New And Improved Bladesinger to cast Booming Blade as a cantrip. Or fast-cast Shadow Blade or Spirit Shroud.

[bendking]

What non-concentration spell? You're a level 13 Bladesinger/AT, what spells are you casting? Note that the Bladesinger has a huge edge because they have the spell slots to be throwing about concentration spells the first round and then dropping concentration if it doesn't stick.

Why do you want to change topics? Action advantage is everything. War Mage gives a +4-6 bonus to saving throws as a reaction. Divine Soul doesn't give you this save bonus as consistently, but it comes with Healing Word, Guidance, and Warding Bond (awesome if you have a familiar), Aid, and Silence. And this is the level of the game where if you don't make saving throws, you are going to be sitting out one or even multiple turns. It advances your spell slots without getting in the way of your standard/bonus actions. War Mage even gets you an initiative boost, which can be pretty huge depending on if you rolled stats or use a Headband of Intellect.

Compared to that, in a 2-4 round combat, what exactly does Bladesinger give you that War Mage doesn't? It's not NOTHING, but until T4 or so (when you get the New and Improved Extra Attack) it doesn't give

I mean, fine, but if you're discounting Simulacrum because it's way overpowered then there's no point in talking about builds past level 16 anyway. Because wizards get multiple spells as good or even better than Simulacrum in T4.

1) Could you break that down for me? Like, break it down in two to four rounds and how the DPR scales.

2) Level 20? Seriously? How about a level that's NOT at the end of the game, a level in which you will actually get to enjoy your build? Like, say, Level 13? And how much more DPR is this than a straight-Bladesinger. Since you're not abusing Haste or Sentinel, AT only adds +5d6 per round. That's pretty sad -- a Bigby's in a Contingency can match that. Or if you want to keep your Concentration open, you can always fast-cast Haste and use the Tasha's New And Improved Bladesinger to cast Booming Blade as a cantrip. Or fast-cast Shadow Blade or Spirit Shroud.

You seem to be misunderstanding a few points.

First off, let me clarify that the build I'm proposing isn't meant to be overall better than Bladesinger, it's meant to be:
A. An Improved Arcane Trickster.
B. Better at single-target DPR than Wizard (disregarding Wizard OP stuff).

I recognize the second point isn't something everyone would like to achieve, but that is beside my point since it does interest me.
I also recognize that you've asked a few questions regarding this point, but I don't have time to answer them today, nor in the coming week, so I'll just further clarify my previous points.

Secondly, the build first takes Bladesinger 6, then Arcane Trickster 9, and then comes back to top off on Bladesinger levels. However, you could just as easily continue to level Arcane Trickster to get even better melee damage.
Either way, I'm not really interested in T4 optimizing, so whatever happens after level 15 I don't care much about. I gave the level 20 example pretty much arbitrarily. Level 13 is an even more favorable comparison.

Regarding the War Mage/Divine Soul: I'm not changing the subject, I'm simply not interested in that discussion. That's all there is to it.

I don't have time to address your other points, I might come back to this thread in a week though.

Side note, since you asked:
Level 11 DPR (BS 6/AT 5) vs AC 18: 39

[Gtdead]

No need to breakdown the rounds. It's just SB+Attack, and then use the bonus action for a DW attack or whatever else. I couldn't recreate the 57.6 damage with a lvl 6 SB (only with a lvl 7), but it's still more than bigby's and meteors and pretty much every other bonus action spell. Lvl 6 SB adds 8d8, which is more than even Crown of Stars which is a 4d12. Of course all these assume that the rogue can get in range for the attack without dash, but nvm. Not that a lvl 20 BS will ever need to cast these spells. Just shapechange into a pit fiend, adding bladesong and song of victory to the new form while being able to spam shields and misty steps to his heart's content and having all the resistances and aoe fear and spell resistance and and. This comparison is comically in favor of the BS 20.

On to the other matters:

Sneak attack isn't exactly a pitiful xd6. This only applies when the rogue can only attack once. When he attacks twice, it's a xd6 with advantage. Thrice is a xd6 with EA advantage. And so on.

This makes a huge difference against increasing AC values. When everyone has to multiply his average output by 0.65, a DW/CE rogue does this only for the weapon attacks, while the SA gets multiplied by 0.87, and instead of 5% crit chance, it's 9.75%.

Still, in my opinion, getting 11 lvls of wizard just to boost your attacks is pointless.

A 20 AT with EA and a familiar giving advantage will deal 63 dpr against 19 AC. No bonus action usage (free to dash). Only familiar action required. This will even change in Tasha's with steady aim, so he will be able to do it without the familiar. In addition he has access to mirror image + sentinel combo, can try haste for double SA shenanigans and more.

Trading this for similar dpr that requires concentration and wasting all your spell slots on SB, losing reliable talent in the process and having the combo come online at lvl 15 (when you get 2 attacks, because before that it's pitiful) while the 20 AT has been doing that from lvl 3.. not worth it. Lvl 6 spells are a good thing to have but no.

Edit: Since we got clarification that the build goes 6 bladesinger first, things are a little bit different that what I described ( I was typing this when bendking responded), but the premise is pretty much the same, at least in my opinion. If weapon damage is your focus, a single classed AT is more than enough.

[DarknessEternal]

I tried reading this thread, but there were too many acronyms. I guess you don't really want people to read it.

[Gtdead]

I tried reading this thread, but there were too many acronyms. I guess you don't really want people to read it.

SB - Shadowblade
BS - Bladesinger
AT - Arcane trickster
SA - sneak attack
EA - elven accuracy
DW - dual wielding
CE - crossbow expert

If I missed any, make an edit to your post and I will include it.

[Klorox]

Looks like I've come out of retirement and started updating this guide again. I obviously don't have Tasha's yet, so my updates have been focused on books released between Tasha's and Xanathar's. Namely, the Wildemount, Acquisitions Incorporated, and Rime books.

Long story short: I find the change to Bladesinger kind of obnoxious from a balance standpoint. They made it notably weaker in T1 -- the level range in which casters have parity with martials and are usually modestly worse -- and made it MUCH stronger from T2 onwards. That change to Extra Attack is straight-up liquid awesome, especially in conjunction with Haste. Double Booming Blade just scratches the surface of cheese. Yes, I would like to be able to spam Blade Ward and still have 2-3 attacks per round. Yes, I would like to be able to soften enemies up with a Mind Sliver + Non-concentration spell. Yes, I would like for Haste to become the new Melf's Minute Meteors from T3 onwards.

Moreover, variant Human immediately solves its MAD problem as well by letting you have that all-valuable +8 bonus to Concentration Saving throws by level 8, and at level 9 you can do it for 98% of workdays.

That said, one of the things I appreciated about Bladesinger in T1 is that Bladesong let you stretch out your spell slots and play as an off-tank. No matter how little gas that was left in the tank, at the end of the day you still had 19 AC and a decent melee attack. Not anymore. Now in T1 you're FORCED to play backline caster in order to have enough Bladesongs to get you through a typical workday. You can't have melee buttkicking as a primary schtick anymore until late T2, whereupon you become even more powerful than before. And Bladesinger was already one of the best T2 melee classes -- now it's looking like they're going to be one of the best T3 melee classes as well.

I'm looking forward to your new guide when Tasha's comes out.

[aadu]

Loved the guide, thanks for the hard work.

[bendking]

Still, in my opinion, getting 11 lvls of wizard just to boost your attacks is pointless.

A 20 AT with EA and a familiar giving advantage will deal 63 dpr against 19 AC. No bonus action usage (free to dash). Only familiar action required. This will even change in Tasha's with steady aim, so he will be able to do it without the familiar. In addition he has access to mirror image + sentinel combo, can try haste for double SA shenanigans and more.

Trading this for similar dpr that requires concentration and wasting all your spell slots on SB, losing reliable talent in the process and having the combo come online at lvl 15 (when you get 2 attacks, because before that it's pitiful) while the 20 AT has been doing that from lvl 3.. not worth it. Lvl 6 spells are a good thing to have but no.


You definitely don't take 11 wizard levels just to deal more damage.
BS 11/AT 9 has objectively more DPR, more slots, higher-level slots, more AC, more versatility, ritual casting... For the cost of, what, Reliable Talent?
I fail to understand what is pointless about this multiclass.

Besides, even with pure AT you should be casting Shadow Blade for maximum DPR, so this isn't really a mark against the BS/AT build.

[obazavil]

Great guide!

@Deathtongue

1) Do you have a sample AL character sheet? In your doc you mention you are lvl 17.

2) I read that after Tasha's is strongly recommended to multi-class into sorcerer, so for AL, how good would be half-elf? I made an experiment and the stats I could get are str8, dex16, con15, int14, wis10, cha 14. Starting as SOR? or WIZ until T2 and then SOR?

3) How many levels of sor?

4) By multi-classing into SOR earlier, we get CON proficiency, but we delay of spells and extra attack.

Is an interesting and very well-written guide, thanks for the effort.!