Bard with a shield -- is there any point?

[polymphus]

So, Valor Bard is proficient with shields. That means, from a rules perspective, he can use them.

However, I'm not sure it means he can use them, that is to say, equipping a shield as a bard seems like a hard downgrade. It occupies a hand, and you need a free hand to cast spells.

Can a Valor bard use their shield in combat, then cast spells, then go back to using their shield in the next turn? What's going on here?

[JackPhoenix]

You know most people have two hands, right? If one is occupied by the shield, the other is still free, provided it doesn't hold a weapon.

[polymphus]

Well but then, you can't make weapon attacks.

You're kinda a useless gish is the point.

[Naanomi]

Or use Warcaster feat... or since you can use instruments as focuses, keep a war-horn on a sling Boromir style to snatch up when needed

[Chugger]

Some shields do have a spike in them, so then yes, they would have a point.






................sorry...............missed my bad-pun-DC..............................:smalltongue:

[Arenabait]

By RAW? There's the War Caster feat, but not much else, making it rather moot. Except for one thing: Dropping an object is a free action (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/29/what-are-the-rules-on-dropping-weapons/), and picking one up uses your object interaction (Which can be done during your action or your move.) Using a Component Pouch, you're all good action economy-wise. However this is all very munchkin-ey, so that could possibly put a hamper on it.

If you'd rather it be a bit less ridiculous, see if you can convince your DM to let you attach a string to the pommel of your weapon, or maybe stab your weapon into the ground, cast a spell, pick it back up, although these still skirt the border of munchkinville, they make it a bit more realistic.

[polymphus]

Yeah I mean, if there's a RAW that makes it not useless, there's gotta be ways to make it work so it feels less munchkinlike.

Eg, my bard is using a violin, so maybe there's a way for him to fix the (violin) bow to the reverse of his swordsword -- a wrist-turn switches from sword to music fast enough to keep up in battle. Pretend the shield is a buckler and he's carrying the violin in the shield-hand. That's not happening RAW but it's a more coherent picture in the theatre of the mind, you know?

[Tanarii]

Same problem the EK often runs into. The easiest answer is Warcaster and avoiding spells that have M-components.

I mean, the easiest answer is not using a Shield & Weapon and casting a spell at the same time, obviously. Either not using a shield, or putting away your weapon. That's mainly a problem for an EK 7 / VB 14 when they want to do both in the same round. Or at lower levels when they want to be able to make an OA after casting a spell. Seriously, other than that it's not that hard to just put your weapon away, and draw it again if needed next round.

But you can do it with Warcaster with V/S spells (but not V/S/M spells).

[Naanomi]

The Green Ranger put a flute in his Short Sword...

[ZorroGames]

The Green Ranger put a flute in his Short Sword...

Oh Man, the opportunities to pun myself into trouble...

[Eragon123]

Oh Man, the opportunities to pun myself into trouble...

As is traditional for flute players.

"Your fingering is off"
"Blow with your lips"

There is something about band players that make them especially dirty minded high schoolers.

[Citan]

So, Valor Bard is proficient with shields. That means, from a rules perspective, he can use them.

However, I'm not sure it means he can use them, that is to say, equipping a shield as a bard seems like a hard downgrade. It occupies a hand, and you need a free hand to cast spells.

Can a Valor bard use their shield in combat, then cast spells, then go back to using their shield in the next turn? What's going on here?
Yeah, sure. ;) There are several ways to do this. Of course it has drawbacks: you may end without weapon when you wanted one for OA, or you may have to use an item interaction to draw a weapon whereas you would have preferred having it for something else. But it can be done.
If you don't care about OA, in fact, you could just use lots of thrown daggers. XD


Well but then, you can't make weapon attacks.

You're kinda a useless gish is the point.
Why so? It's a really reductive point of view here.
You can use plain attacks and drop the weapon afterwards if you really want weapon attacks, but...

Plain Bard has Vicious Mockery, which is strong enough thanks to its rider until level 6-7 when monsters start having Multiattack consistently.
Any dip or Magic Initiate or level 10 Magic Secrets can net whatever great cantrip a Bard may like: Shocking Grasp, Eldricht Blast, Ray of Frost, Thorns Whip (love that one) etc...

Wielding a shield does not imply that you actually have to go to the frontline nor that you have to smack/slash/pierce things with melee weapons. That +2 AC is also very useful as a plain caster to protect your concentration from lone rushers and ranged attackers too. :)

Of course, this does reduce the value of Extra Attack feature, but since a Bard can get any cantrip he wants, this is a fair investment imo to get a much better AC quickly (from light+DEX to 19).
Especially once you consider level 14 feature: since Magic Secrets count as magical, you can either...
- draw a weapon, throw it as bonus action then cast your spell.
- cast a spell, do something with your bonus action then draw a weapon for potential Warcaster OA or Defensive Duelist.
- or draw a weapon, use BB/GFB with it then chain with a plain melee weapon attack.

[Danielqueue1]

Bards are very flexible. in my opinion. so whether there is a point is entirely up to the situation, your playstyle, and what you are ready for.

(have a component pouch in case your focus requires two hands)

back line caster; a shield and a free hand means you can do everything a full caster can, with +2 to AC.

front line fighter; sword'n'board with vicious mockery and healing word along with the ever popular bardic inspiration.

flex; free object interaction to switch between. no action economy wasted.

also fun. Use throw-able weapons. know you need to cast a spell next round that requires a free hand? throw that spear and now you have a free hand. have two attacks? free object interaction draw a dagger and throw that too.

[polymphus]

Well so, very specifically I'm running into this issue with my Tabaxi Valor Bard, running ToA. ToA has lots of early multiattack so VM is unfortunately proving pretty weak. I'm still a decent debuffer (Bane is actually crazy good, when all your enemies are ravening undead or dinosaurs) but my damage output is almost soley coming from my weapons.

The problem there is, I get close and I get absolutely ruined. I got hit once in our most recent fight, and it took me down to 3HP. I've got a longbow for when I really want to keep my distance, but I also want to be able to mix it up in melee -- we get ambushed and/or the frontline collapses a lot, and I'm kinda useless when enemies rush me. I've been running dual shortswords but I reeally need to get less squishy. The rest of the party consists of two clerics, 1 barbarian and 1 ranger: I'm far-and-away the squishiest member and the dinosaurs really want to crunch on my bones.

I thought maybe changing it up for Shield/Rapier but (if I don't want to take warcaster) I just wasn't sure how viable it was.

[ImproperJustice]

I think the best way to handle this, is the same way we handle this at our table:

Acknowledge that it’s a stupid arbitrary restriction on a subclass that is meant to cast spells and just let them cast spells while hilding sword and shield anyways.

We’ve had bards and Paladins slinging spells with both hands loaded and so far our game has not imploded.

[Theodoxus]

I've yet to play in a game (and subsequently don't run them) where people track the minutia of sword&board and spell casting. The conventional wisdom being you can hold your one handed weapon in your shield hand and point/wiggle fingers on your casting hand, and go back to wielding your weapon. LARPers do this all the time, and there's no reason D&D can't follow. Warcaster provides other benefits that make it useful to take, outside of "casting with a weapon and shield in hand."

[Eragon123]

I've yet to play in a game (and subsequently don't run them) where people track the minutia of sword&board and spell casting. The conventional wisdom being you can hold your one handed weapon in your shield hand and point/wiggle fingers on your casting hand, and go back to wielding your weapon. LARPers do this all the time, and there's no reason D&D can't follow. Warcaster provides other benefits that make it useful to take, outside of "casting with a weapon and shield in hand."

About the only thing I can think of is an enemy who readies to disarm you as you switch over your weapon.

And well, that's a whole other question.

[StorytellerHero]

If you don't forget that you get one free item interaction on your turn, then you realize that using a shield doesn't really hamper a bard from casting spells and wielding a weapon in the same encounter.

Cast a spell then draw a weapon.

Attack with your weapon then sheathe it.

Rinse and repeat.

Cast a Verbal component only spell while wielding a weapon if you don't want to sheathe it.

[Tanarii]

front line fighter; sword'n'board with vicious mockery and healing word along with the ever popular bardic inspiration..
Yeah. It's important to remember that both Vicious Mockery and Healing Word are Verbal only spells.

[Specter]

Another idea is to have just a shield (,no weapon) and still grab Warcaster as a feat. You miss out on one of its benefits, but you still threaten foes who slip out of your reach with things like Hold Person and Phantasmal Force - which can be much worse than a regular opportunity attack.

[Squeeq]

The really weird thing here is that in the opening text for the Bard that describes a few bards and how they work, it explicitly describes a bard who slams his sword against his shield as his musical 'instrument', so I really wouldn't have a problem with that, considering that's one of the core aesthetics that Wizards put forwards for the class concept.

[Arkhios]

It's called Action Economy.

A character can draw or stow an item as no action once per turn.

Casting a spell usually requires an Action.
Attacking with a weapon is usually an Action.
You can always make an Opportunity Action unarmed or with an improvised weapon.

Spells that can be cast as a bonus action tend to require only Verbal component (although, as always, there are exceptions).

Also, only spells that have Somatic or Material component require a free hand.

So, instead of ignoring an important part of the rules, you can do the following:

While wielding a weapon and a shield, when you wish to cast a spell that takes an Action and has a Somatic or Material component, stow your weapon as a no action, then use your Action to cast the spell.

Next turn, as a no action you can draw your weapon again and take the Attack Action.

Really, if you'd follow the rules as written, there's no issues with this. There's no dilemma.
War Caster only makes it easier; it doesn't mean you can't do it without the feat.

[Zalabim]

Well so, very specifically I'm running into this issue with my Tabaxi Valor Bard, running ToA. ToA has lots of early multiattack so VM is unfortunately proving pretty weak. I'm still a decent debuffer (Bane is actually crazy good, when all your enemies are ravening undead or dinosaurs) but my damage output is almost soley coming from my weapons.

The problem there is, I get close and I get absolutely ruined. I got hit once in our most recent fight, and it took me down to 3HP. I've got a longbow for when I really want to keep my distance, but I also want to be able to mix it up in melee -- we get ambushed and/or the frontline collapses a lot, and I'm kinda useless when enemies rush me. I've been running dual shortswords but I reeally need to get less squishy. The rest of the party consists of two clerics, 1 barbarian and 1 ranger: I'm far-and-away the squishiest member and the dinosaurs really want to crunch on my bones.

I thought maybe changing it up for Shield/Rapier but (if I don't want to take warcaster) I just wasn't sure how viable it was.
Completely out of left field here, but as you're a Dex valor bard, your party may want to stock up some nets for the dinos. They should have poor AC and nets can help control them and disadvantage more of their attacks. It won't work on the really big ones, but it's something to really consider while you're still this low level. Then it comes back around again later as a good option for your bonus attack when you use Battle Magic.

[Spacehamster]

Make him a war bard, his instrument is banging his weapon against his shield, that way you are always holding your instrument.

[Citan]

Well so, very specifically I'm running into this issue with my Tabaxi Valor Bard, running ToA. ToA has lots of early multiattack so VM is unfortunately proving pretty weak. I'm still a decent debuffer (Bane is actually crazy good, when all your enemies are ravening undead or dinosaurs) but my damage output is almost soley coming from my weapons.

The problem there is, I get close and I get absolutely ruined. I got hit once in our most recent fight, and it took me down to 3HP. I've got a longbow for when I really want to keep my distance, but I also want to be able to mix it up in melee -- we get ambushed and/or the frontline collapses a lot, and I'm kinda useless when enemies rush me. I've been running dual shortswords but I reeally need to get less squishy. The rest of the party consists of two clerics, 1 barbarian and 1 ranger: I'm far-and-away the squishiest member and the dinosaurs really want to crunch on my bones.

I thought maybe changing it up for Shield/Rapier but (if I don't want to take warcaster) I just wasn't sure how viable it was.
Well, it's a bit strange... What level are you? And how much HP/AC do you have? Besides a critical hit, I wonder what could put you down so hard...

Honestly as myself and others explained, if you really want to use melee weapons as a Valor Bard it's usually not a problem, unless you'd like to cast a spell yet get a weapon in hand for OA.
From what you say, your problem is a more general one: the fact that Valor Bard is just an archetype that provides a good defense boost and a decent weapon attack, but by no means transforms a Bard from caster to tank.
It can certainly be done, but at the price of heavy investment in Magic Secrets and feats.

Your post tells me the problem is not that much yourself, but more the party overall. I guess you all are level 3 because otherwise...
- Clerics could (and should) use Spirit Guardians with martials in between to form a "move-breaking" line.
- Clerics could afford to keep at least two 2nd level slots per day (1 slot each) for Warding Bonding you on biggest fights.
- Yourself could (and should) have learned either Plant Growth, or Hypnotic Pattern, or both maybe...
- Rangers could cast Pass Without Trace to help the whole party get sneaky and maybe avoid some ambushes.

For your case, I guess even Mobile would not cut it since the problem is more enemies running right at you rather than you going to rush towards them.

A dip into Sorcerer would be appealing because you'd get Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost and Booming Blade to cover all variants of "one enemy tries to get at me". But I'm honestly not sure it would be worth delaying access to those great 3rd level spells...

Without further information, my advice would actually be: "grit your teeth and work on party tactics, especially on scouting/detection/sneakiness". ;)
Remember that you are not supposed to deal damage in the first place, you are an "enabler". So if you have do Dodge to keep a Bane/Phantasmal Force/Hypnotic Pattern then so be it. If you use Vicious Mockery and as a result a dinosaur misses on a powerful bite, then you can be proud of yourself, you contributed good.

If you still feel "weak" after a while and want to contribute more on damage side, then...
- Wait until after level 6-7 to take a dip into Sorcerer or Warlock depending on spells you want (Shield or Hex in short), or a 2-level dip into Warlock for Agonizing Repelling Blast (so higher damage AND keep enemies away from you).
- Or if it's afforded (like <level 5 in AL games), rebuild your character as a Lore Bard X with Fighter 1 or Life/Nature/Tempest/War Cleric 1 or Draconic Sorcerer 1 (depending on how high DEX is) and grab an offense cantrip with the first Magic Secrets.

[Asmotherion]

Or use Warcaster feat... or since you can use instruments as focuses, keep a war-horn on a sling Boromir style to snatch up when needed

From the way I get it, any kind of spellcasting foccus is there to substitute Material Components for spells that need them (and that have no listed cost). That said, if one wants to Gish withough the Warcaster Feat, I find it at the very least a doubious choice.

Warcaster not only gives the ability to use Somatic components when you hold a weapon, it also prevents you from loosing Concentration that easily, and when you melee, you are hit more often than when you don't melee. Unless you don't use Concentration spells as part of your Gish Strategy, but just to mention a few: Hex, Faerie Fire, Flame Blade, Hold Person, Magic/Elemental Weapon, Haste, Bestow Curse, Vampiric Touch, Spirit Guardians, Greater Invisibility, are all accesible to you through magical secrets to form a Gish Strategy around 1-2 of them.

[CharonsHelper]

It's called Action Economy.

A character can draw or stow an item as no action once per turn.

Casting a spell usually requires an Action.
Attacking with a weapon is usually an Action.
You can always make an Opportunity Action unarmed or with an improvised weapon.

Spells that can be cast as a bonus action tend to require only Verbal component (although, as always, there are exceptions).

Also, only spells that have Somatic or Material component require a free hand.

So, instead of ignoring an important part of the rules, you can do the following:

While wielding a weapon and a shield, when you wish to cast a spell that takes an Action and has a Somatic or Material component, stow your weapon as a no action, then use your Action to cast the spell.

Next turn, as a no action you can draw your weapon again and take the Attack Action.

Really, if you'd follow the rules as written, there's no issues with this. There's no dilemma.
War Caster only makes it easier; it doesn't mean you can't do it without the feat.

+1

No reason to houserule something with a perfectly viable solution already.

The only real drawback is that your AOOs suck in a turn where you cast a spell with somatic components.

[Throne12]

As a bard a lot of your spells are v.s components. The ones with m you can just drop or Sheath your weapon. Then draw your spell after casting a spell.

[polymphus]

Well, it's a bit strange... What level are you? And how much HP/AC do you have? Besides a critical hit, I wonder what could put you down so hard...

At the time, I was lvl2, 17HP, AC14. Party got ambushed by an allosaurus. A few turns in, it was Baned and VMd, and it charged through the line to get me. I tried to back up, figured the OA would miss thanks to debuffs aaaaaand got bitten almost to death for my trouble. Currently lvl3, 26HP, trying to pick Valor stuff for upcoming sessions.

I've been talking to the DM about making it work re fluff. I understand how it works re crunch, but the mental picture of constantly sheathing/unsheathing weapons bothers me. We decided to hit up the forge cleric, and have him make a rig in the back of the shield that holds the violin. The (violin) bow is held in a quick-access chest harness so I can switch quickly.

[Tanarii]

I've been talking to the DM about making it work re fluff. I understand how it works re crunch, but the mental picture of constantly sheathing/unsheathing weapons bothers me. We decided to hit up the forge cleric, and have him make a rig in the back of the shield that holds the violin. The (violin) bow is held in a quick-access chest harness so I can switch quickly.
Doesn't this still require sheathing your weapon to free up the hand for your violin (bow)? Why not just ask for a house-rule that the V/S component ability of war caster being built in for everyone? Or even V/S/M, as long as you have your focus on you? Since you're already putting together a table rule for it.

[polymphus]

We just kinda said "a bard is probably very skilled at fighting and playing music at the same time, he's using a Light weapon and a fairly small bow -- he can probably pick up the bow without dropping the sword."

It's a weird, difficult skill no real-life swordsman or musician would ever train in, but a fantasy bard who uses music in combat could conceivably teach himself to do it. I play viola myself, and I spent a while messing around, seeing if it could be done. Decision: it twists your hand into weird and uncomfortable positions I never want to do again, but if I did it every day for a couple of months my hand would probably adapt to it.

[Tanarii]

If I was going for some kind of in-game justification thing of a house-rule effectively removing the need for a free hand to cast M-components with a focus, I'd just work with the DM to say I just needed to reach down and touch the violin bow hanging from my belt with my hand to cast a spell. Exact same result as what you're saying, but it makes more 'sense' to me personally as a visualization of what's going on.

The thing is, that doesn't remove the need for a free hand to cast S-components. So you might as well just ask the DM to scrap the entire components requiring a free hand rule. That has some implications for everyone of course.

[N810]

Gong Shield :elan:
https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/8864/274/XXX_8864_1311025926_1.jpg

[MrStabby]

It might be too late - but shield mastery, strength and proficiency in athletics will let you shove people around very effectively. It builds on the theme of battlefield control whilst conserving spell slots.

[Willie the Duck]

To answer the original question of why--regardless of how often it is used, I think it would be really odd for the designers to specifically exclude the option of a shield-using fighting-type bard.

[Battlebooze]

The answer is simple, hang some bells from your shield and call it an armored tambourine shield.

[Arkhios]

It means you will only miss out on Attacks of Opportunity from the time you cast until the start of your next turn.
--
Since spells are damn powerful, it's a worthy trade-off to lose your AoO to cast, especially at low levels when action economy is limited and characters are still coming in to their own. If you want to build your character to have higher action economy, invest in the War Caster Feat when you can.

Not quite true. You don't lose your chance at Attack of Opportunity; even if you don't have proficiency with improvised weapons (such as shield) you can still make an AoO. Heck, everyone is proficient with unarmed strike (there's been an errata about it for years). Just give a punch at the one provoking.

The only real cost is that your AoO won't be as good as it would be with an actual weapon.

[RedMage125]

Or use Warcaster feat... or since you can use instruments as focuses, keep a war-horn on a sling Boromir style to snatch up when needed

My first Valor Bard did this!

He also had a set of bagpipes he used for music when not in combat. He was a Skald-type character.

Plus the idea of a 6' 7" Dragonborn playing bagpipes is funny

[Eric Diaz]

The bard can use a +1 buckler and still cast spells as if he had a free hand.

Flavorful, fitting and balanced.

[Naanomi]

The bard can use a +1 buckler and still cast spells as if he had a free hand.

Flavorful, fitting and balanced.
Where can we find bucklers in the rules?

[JackPhoenix]

The bard can use a +1 buckler and still cast spells as if he had a free hand.

Flavorful, fitting and balanced.

There's no buckler.

And even if there was, buckler is entirely hand-held, which is the opposite of having a free hand to cast spells.

[Arkhios]

The bard can use a +1 buckler and still cast spells as if he had a free hand.

Flavorful, fitting and balanced.

Wrong edition. Otherwise that would be good advice.


And even if there was, buckler is entirely hand-held, which is the opposite of having a free hand to cast spells.

That would depend on how Buckler RAW is laid out. 3.5e assumes that a buckler is strapped on your forearm rather than being held in hand (as it's usually depicted in historically (in)accurate(?) drawings).

[Eric Diaz]

Where can we find bucklers in the rules?

Nowhere, RAW. Just a suggestion.


And even if there was, buckler is entirely hand-held, which is the opposite of having a free hand to cast spells.

Well, realistically, yes, but in a game like D&D I'd allow it. The buckler seems to be easier to hold than a viking shield, for example. IMMV and all.

[Christian]

As is traditional for flute players.

"Your fingering is off"
"Blow with your lips"

There is something about band players that make them especially dirty minded high schoolers.

So, this one time at bard camp ... :smallbiggrin:

[FabulousFizban]

Make him a war bard, his instrument is banging his weapon against his shield, that way you are always holding your instrument.

i like this a lot. "Perform cacophony!"

[Monavic]

Its worth noting that by RAW you can not use reaction spells with S, or M(shield,feather fall ect.) if you are holding a sword and shield. The one free interaction happens on your turn not during reactions. Of course you could drop the weapon as a "nothing action" but I can also see reaction spells being almost a subconscious reaction that leaves no time to even drop something.

[DarkKnightJin]

Yeah. It's important to remember that both Vicious Mockery and Healing Word are Verbal only spells.

...Why do I feel like building a Paladin/Bard that used VM to scold bad guys?
"Oi, you! Is your mother proud of you!?"

[sithlordnergal]

...Why do I feel like building a Paladin/Bard that used VM to scold bad guys?
"Oi, you! Is your mother proud of you!?"

Welp, I know what my next Paladin build will be. X3

[EvilAnagram]

Bard with a shield -- is there any point?
Yes, it's at the tip of his sword.

Why is it taking people this long to make a pun in a bard thread??

Props to Chugger for his valiant efforts.

[DarkKnightJin]

Welp, I know what my next Paladin build will be. X3

If you wanna steal another PalaBard idea from me..
Go for an Ancients Pally, at least 3 levels of Lore Bard, with Expertise in Persuasion and/or Deception.
Then go around celebrating the Light, and/or 'restoring people's Light' while abusing their disease immunity.
Turn the paragon of virtue into the one that shows the party Barbarian where all the best brothels are.
Or that 'comforts' the poor widow of the guy the party put out of their misery. Pretty much, play 'em like flippin' James Bond or something. Womanizer to the max.