Mundane means of blocking teleport.

[Yogibear41]

I seem to remember a specific material (or materials) that could be used to stop teleportation into our out of an area. Much like lead can stop detection spells. I looked through stronghold builder's guidebook but can't seem to find it. Perhaps it was in another book, or perhaps I am mistaken entirely. Does anyone know of anything that works like this and if so what book was it in?

[tyckspoon]

I'm not aware of any, although since teleport uses the Astral plane to travel anything that cuts off access to that plane will also block teleportation (again, not sure if such a thing exists.) Teleport does state that 'areas of strong physical or magical energy' may prevent teleporting, but what constitutes such is left completely undefined.

[Diarmuid]

In 2nd edition there was mention of Gorgon’s blood being able to thwart teleportation.

[TaiLiu]

I can't think of any non-magical methods, but it strikes me that you might be thinking of a weirdstone. It's a magical item. Internet searches suggest that it can be found in the Player's Guide to Faerûn.

[Psyren]

The Teleport spell itself tells you a non-magical method:

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

Physical energy can be just about any energetic natural or even artificial feature, like a waterfall, volcano, giant machine etc.

[Deophaun]

The closest special material I can come up with is astral driftmetal, as its interaction with touch attacks would imply that it could be used to stop ethereal travel. But, that's iffy and still not teleportation.

[ryu]

The Teleport spell itself tells you a non-magical method:

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

Physical energy can be just about any energetic natural or even artificial feature, like a waterfall, volcano, giant machine etc.

Or in laymen's terms teleportation has a specific clause about being blocked by plot. That wording tells you exactly how much I respect that entire concept much less that execution.

[Darrin]

Anchor mists might fit the bill. Dungeonscape p. 140. I'm not entirely sure if they are mundane, but they aren't listed as magical.

Flux slime generates an AMF, so it could be used to stop teleportation. It's not exactly what I'd call mundane... but it's not exactly magical, either, more like "Pun-pun divided by zero here, so the fabric of reality is losing it's ****. Tread carefully."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not a mundane material, but if you plan properly in building, you can make teleportation infeasible.

For instance, my preferred method of protecting my extraplanar strongholds is to fill the entire thing with layers of nigh unbreakable material; for instance, riverine (which is best, I feel, because it blocks ethereal and incorporeal creatures). Inside the solid block is a massive labyrinth made of Fine-sized tunnels that require that anyone who plane shifts in also be Fine-sized. The only place in the entire demiplane that's big enough for a Tiny or larger creature to fit is filled with quintessence. So anyone who is Tiny, Small, Medium, or Large ends up 'porting into a vat of null-time, pulling them from the timestream entirely. They are then shoved into one of two portals: one is to a demiplane filled entirely with quintessence for permanent disposal; the other is into a demiplane designed to either hold prisoners for questioning on their motives, or to be welcomed as a potential ally (after being screened for subterfuge and betrayal, of course).

Pivotal to this defense is ensuring that the secret never reaches outside ears. There are other defenses at work (such as a plane-wide forbiddance with one corner that allows a portal, which automatically resizes those who enter into it to be Fine, in order to prevent visitors from realizing the above defense is actually in effect at all), even if someone knows about this defense, but I imagine that it'd be a reasonable precaution against regular teleport-invasions, as well.

[Psyren]

Or in laymen's terms teleportation has a specific clause about being blocked by plot. That wording tells you exactly how much I respect that entire concept much less that execution.

The fact that some here find the clause so upsetting only makes me want to spread knowledge of it even further.

[Kobold Esq]

Or in laymen's terms teleportation has a specific clause about being blocked by plot. That wording tells you exactly how much I respect that entire concept much less that execution.

Meh, I think there is something to be said in favor of this. Anyone who enjoys comics, or comic based games (Mutants and Masterminds, etc) should be used to the idea of GM fiat. Sometimes things don't work because PLOT, or the bad guy escapes because SUSPENSE. In MnM the players are awarded an action point for it, but in comics in general it is a common trope that "X power doesn't work because the author doesn't want it to".

I think a lot of this goes towards the player group (when I say this, I include the DM as a member of the group) and what their expectations are for the kind of game being run. If it is a gamist, rules are absolute and everyone follows them to the letter combat simulation, then yes, this sort of thing will grind gears. Mind you those games also at times devolve in optimization battles between players and DMs (which I admit I've participated in, and they can be fun!). On the other extreme are the groups who use the rules as mere suggestion, and rule of cool prevails for everything, much to the consternation of rules lawyers.

Me, I'm a rules lawyer. I like consistency, and the "rule of cool" pains me to my very core. That being said, I am ok with things like powerful spells having vague exceptions for the DM to use to make a fun, exciting game, as long as it is written into the text.

[Yogibear41]

In 2nd edition there was mention of Gorgon’s blood being able to thwart teleportation.

I remember something about this as well, and it may have even been reprinted in a 3.X book somewhere as well.


Found it: Gorgon's blood in the Manual of the planes, when mixed in the mortar acts as a wall of force vs ethereal creatures.

So it blocks ethereal travel but not astral travel :smallfrown:

[Crake]

I can't think of any non-magical methods, but it strikes me that you might be thinking of a weirdstone. It's a magical item. Internet searches suggest that it can be found in the Player's Guide to Faerûn.

As much as I love wierdstones (and I've always actually used the 2e version in my 3.5 games, didn't realise they'd made a 3e version for it), they're most definitely magical. 250,000gp magical even.

[Fizban]

Teleport also has this line, emphasis mine:

“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from. "
You can block Teleport and spells that directly reference it by altering the area enough that it no longer counts as familiar. This can be accomplished through mundane means by moving around large pieces of furniture, rugs, tapestries, changing out doors, movable walls, and so on. This only wards a particular room, and doesn't work against some [teleportation] spells- but those are things like Word of Recall or Gemjump.

Mundane traps are also perfectly effective: by teleporting in, the intruder has forfeited any opportunity to search for and disable traps. The moment they land, they go boom.

Both methods require restricting outside access to only certain rooms, which can be circumvented in other ways, which can be blocked in other ways, and so on.

[Eldariel]

Meh, I think there is something to be said in favor of this. Anyone who enjoys comics, or comic based games (Mutants and Masterminds, etc) should be used to the idea of GM fiat. Sometimes things don't work because PLOT, or the bad guy escapes because SUSPENSE. In MnM the players are awarded an action point for it, but in comics in general it is a common trope that "X power doesn't work because the author doesn't want it to".

I think a lot of this goes towards the player group (when I say this, I include the DM as a member of the group) and what their expectations are for the kind of game being run. If it is a gamist, rules are absolute and everyone follows them to the letter combat simulation, then yes, this sort of thing will grind gears. Mind you those games also at times devolve in optimization battles between players and DMs (which I admit I've participated in, and they can be fun!). On the other extreme are the groups who use the rules as mere suggestion, and rule of cool prevails for everything, much to the consternation of rules lawyers.

Me, I'm a rules lawyer. I like consistency, and the "rule of cool" pains me to my very core. That being said, I am ok with things like powerful spells having vague exceptions for the DM to use to make a fun, exciting game, as long as it is written into the text.

I don't think it's even that; in a well-developed world it's much less PLOT and much more areas. Take a look at Forgotten Realms for example; there are very clear sectors with wild magic (don't try to teleport there, but obviously same goes for everybody else so much higher chance of finding artifacts of value since it's so much harder to explore), dead magic, and obvious physical power. Thus teleportation can take you anywhere but certain areas of the map (well, safely) and thus those areas in the map, by simple logic, will contain the items of most value but also most effort (since everyone else has the same teleportation and divination powers). If DM has to resort to "BUT PLOT", they are being really lazy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think it's even that; in a well-developed world it's much less PLOT and much more areas. Take a look at Forgotten Realms for example; there are very clear sectors with wild magic (don't try to teleport there, but obviously same goes for everybody else so much higher chance of finding artifacts of value since it's so much harder to explore), dead magic, and obvious physical power. Thus teleportation can take you anywhere but certain areas of the map (well, safely) and thus those areas in the map, by simple logic, will contain the items of most value but also most effort (since everyone else has the same teleportation and divination powers). If DM has to resort to "BUT PLOT", they are being really lazy.Problem is, players will want to avoid those areas altogether, and won't like playing in them if they're forced to do so.

Not a particularly good solution.

[Crake]

Problem is, players will want to avoid those areas altogether, and won't like playing in them if they're forced to do so.

Not a particularly good solution.

If "being forced to do so" involves having to follow a villain that has set up there because he knows the players rely heavily on teleporatation magic to move around and to escape in dire situations, that's the players' problem. If they want to abandon the plot because it got to hard, fine, so be it. Nobody's forcing them to do anything, but at the same time, the bad guy isn't an idiot, and will use the geography of the world to his advantage. If setting up his lair in a volcano stops the players from teleporting into his base, why wouldn't he set up there.

The players, should they ever wish to set up a base, can likewise set up in a location where they and their followers from leadership, or just good roleplaying, cannot be scried and fried, the same way the BBEG did. If they don't, well, then, again, any consequences are on them.

Edit: That said, a possible mundane method of deterring teleportation (though not stopping it completely) is faezress. If you can get a sufficient amount of faezress, it will force a spellcraft check to teleport into the area. Admittedly, it's not exactly a high check, and it's reduced for things like greater teleport, but it's something.

[Inevitability]

A Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm) generates an extraordinary AMF in a 100 ft. radius, so that'd work against most forms of teleportation.

That said, creating one costs hundreds of thousands of GP, and requires the casting of a number of high-level spells.

[Eldariel]

Problem is, players will want to avoid those areas altogether, and won't like playing in them if they're forced to do so.

Not a particularly good solution.

I mean, the players might or might not like them but regardless it poses a different problem (much like most of the magic traits for various planes and various places in the Material Plane) that they have to somehow solve; generally lateral thinking or outsourcing is rewarded in such a circumstance. But it's an inevitable part of the world ecology; the hardest-to-magic places are also the ones that can still house things people have yet to uncover so if your party, for any reason, is looking for a given artifact, those places are the best bet to start looking. And at least the players I've generally played with tend to enjoy having to overcome hurdles with full advance warning that they'll have to do so. There are countless ways to go about it after all, so it essentially becomes an open-ended problemsolving task (like everything else in higher level D&D, but with an unusual set of parameters making it a different problem to tackle).

[Elkad]

1st Edition. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

The spaceship outer hull - and between decks IIRC - block all ethereal/astral travel.
So you can teleport around on a level, but not between levels, or in/out of the ship.

[ryu]

Meh, I think there is something to be said in favor of this. Anyone who enjoys comics, or comic based games (Mutants and Masterminds, etc) should be used to the idea of GM fiat. Sometimes things don't work because PLOT, or the bad guy escapes because SUSPENSE. In MnM the players are awarded an action point for it, but in comics in general it is a common trope that "X power doesn't work because the author doesn't want it to".

I think a lot of this goes towards the player group (when I say this, I include the DM as a member of the group) and what their expectations are for the kind of game being run. If it is a gamist, rules are absolute and everyone follows them to the letter combat simulation, then yes, this sort of thing will grind gears. Mind you those games also at times devolve in optimization battles between players and DMs (which I admit I've participated in, and they can be fun!). On the other extreme are the groups who use the rules as mere suggestion, and rule of cool prevails for everything, much to the consternation of rules lawyers.

Me, I'm a rules lawyer. I like consistency, and the "rule of cool" pains me to my very core. That being said, I am ok with things like powerful spells having vague exceptions for the DM to use to make a fun, exciting game, as long as it is written into the text.

Bah. One of the greatest works of fiction of all time, Worm, never once pulled a trick of making a power just not function for reasons of plot, and would on occasion allow the synergistic use of powers to outright overcome stated limits. The closest it ever got to this kind of power limiting shenanigans was literally an act of the in-world equivalent to a dying god and it STILL was neither complete nor did it accomplish what the god intended. This isn't to say powers are never thwarted. When two powers come into conflict someone has to lose, but that's not plot based negation.

[Bronk]

This poster had a cool idea a while back:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11136786&postcount=18

Also, and this is magical but more of a terrain type, not a spell or magic item, areas of faerzress either inhibit teleportation or cause teleportation to be more dangerous.

[Gnaeus]

It’s not solely plot. It’s also world continuity. In a world full of people who can teleport and hold a small army in bags, building a castle is pointless.

It’s not RAW, but my dm has in houserules that teleport is blocked by lead and other minerals. It’s a houserule, but a good one. Then, our powers don’t fail “just because”. Teleport is still an amazing spell. It just isn’t an automatic thing.

[CharonsHelper]

I think you guys are making it harder than it has to be.

Step 1: Use lead lined walls to prevent scrying.

Step 2: Repaint the place with jarring color schemes every day or three. (You can't tell me that a place with orange & purple polka dots isn't "so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you" relative to a place with black & white stripes.) Maybe move furniture around for good measure. Or throw up & take down various illusionary walls from time to time - but that isn't mundane anymore.


“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.

If you want to get mean - create a "similar area" to leaked information which is filled with all sorts of super nasty traps to hit them as they teleport in.

[Deophaun]

You can't tell me that a place with orange & purple polka dots isn't "so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you" relative to a place with black & white stripes.
Blindsight. Necessary when you pluck your eyes out of your skull after having visited such a visual war crime the first time.

[CharonsHelper]

Blindsight. Necessary when you pluck your eyes out of your skull after having visited such a visual war crime the first time.

That still only helps if you've been there before yourself since the lead negates scrying.

And that's still stopped by moving the furniture. Or just sponging the walls for texture or adding knick-knacks.

[Segev]

Or in laymen's terms teleportation has a specific clause about being blocked by plot. That wording tells you exactly how much I respect that entire concept much less that execution.

"Blocked by plot" suggests that the conditions aren't replicable. When they're replicable, it just becomes a matter of doing so. High mechanical energy can be that gnomish or dwarven city with all those pointless gears churning against each other everywhere. Make the whole city a massive steampunk machine and now nobody can teleport in because of the high energy density in the region.

Build your keep floating over an active lava-filled volcano caldera? Why would you do that, other than "to be evil?" You'd do it to block teleportation into your sanctum, of course!

The high level druid's home/lair is in that cave behind the waterfall not just because it's cool, but because the waterfall prevents people from teleporting in unannounced.

The necromancer's tower is crawling with undead. More than he actually seems to employ. But by the "every undead makes the aura of power in the world that makes more undead spontaneously arise" argument, his tower is so suffused with necromantic energy that teleporting in is impossible outside of his specially-prepared arrival room.

The dragon's hoard filled with powerful magical items doesn't just make him feel good about the high quality of his sleeping space; it also makes teleporting into the hoard proper very difficult.

The Ten Towers of Tesla that ring the great keep don't just hurl non-magical lightning between each other and at any who fly too close, but Archmage Tesla designed them to be positioned such that the enormous amount of electricity harvested by the mundane rituals he ordered the King to keep people performing to keep them charged makes the whole castle a teleportation-denial zone.

The invading orc army didn't just light the fields, grasslands, and forest on fire around the towns and cities they attacked just to torment the people, but also because the wildfire's elemental energies hinder the efforts of the kingdom's magical strike forces to launch their infamous lightning raids.

[Psyren]

^ Remember that you don't have to outright block it either; "hazardous" is an option too. So they can teleport to the necromancer's sanctum, but maybe some of that evil energy seeps into them and they arrive sickened or nauseated for the first few rounds of the fight, helping to negate the advantage of outright surprise and keeping the fight challenging.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Blocking scrying with lead and carefully controlling who's allowed in ought to do a pretty good job of ensuring security-- you can't teleport to a place you've never seen. I also like the answer Bronk linked to of filling your fortress with hangings that are easy to walk through, but which would cause Teleport to misfire.

-----------------

As for the current discussion... the difference between "blocked by plot" and "blocked by reason" is less one of execution than of expectation. "Scrying magic is blocked by lead sheets" is fine-- that's knowable, predictable. Players can expect and plan for it; when they enconter it it's not a surprise. "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible" is bad not because of the limitation, but because of the vagueness. What does "strong physical or magical energy" mean? The phrase is utterly useless. Does a stream count? A river? A volcano? What if there's a big rock dangling from a rope, that's a lot of physical (potential) energy right there. To not feel like you're being railroaded, the phrase needs another... oh, two sentences or so of example and explanation, I think.

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible" is vague enough to be almost meaningless.

"Ongoing magical area effects, such as a hallow spell (or even a magically generated fog cloud), increase the chance that Teleport arrives off-target by a cumulative 5% per spell level. Teleport is also more hazardous in extreme physical environments, such as near active volcanoes, amid great storms, atop icy mountains, or in the depths of the desert. Such circumstances increase the chance that you arrive off-target by 50%-- and if the environment is dangerous enough to inflict lethal damage, Teleport automatically fails" is concrete enough to be useful.

[Segev]

As for the current discussion... the difference between "blocked by plot" and "blocked by reason" is less one of execution than of expectation. "Scrying magic is blocked by lead sheets" is fine-- that's knowable, predictable. Players can expect and plan for it; when they enconter it it's not a surprise. "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible" is bad not because of the limitation, but because of the vagueness. What does "strong physical or magical energy" mean? The phrase is utterly useless. Does a stream count? A river? A volcano? What if there's a big rock dangling from a rope, that's a lot of physical (potential) energy right there. To not feel like you're being railroaded, the phrase needs another... oh, two sentences or so of example and explanation, I think.

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible" is vague enough to be almost meaningless.

It is; however, this is an area where the DM can be reasonably expected to step up if the players care or he wants to introduce it. For example, Samantha the Sorceress wants to make her private sanctum safe from teleporters, because the party has been dealing with some hostile Archons who take offense at their Chaotic approach to problem-solving. Her player, having read the rule about strong physical or magical energy, talks to the DM, and the DM agrees that this is something she probably has some knowledge of. One or more suitable Spellcraft and/or K:Arcane checks later, the DM determines that, yes, Samantha would be able to tell what is 'sufficient.' They then discuss, OOC, Samantha's player's ideas, and settle on the notion of hollowing out the great tree that the party previously found growing in one of the GM's neat scenery pieces, a lake halfway up a cliff-side into which a massive waterfall flows, and out the far side another massive waterfall flows. Still water runs deep in the bowl-like lake, but the currents around the edges are sufficient physical energy - especially if she builds waterwheels around the edges - to disrupt teleport.

It isn't "because plot" since there is a root in the rules and the players and GM can come up with something that makes sense. "Because plot" is generally short-hand for "something that the player characters could never, ever conceive of replicating or even measuring and exploiting; it serves a narrative screw-you purpose."

[Psyren]

@Grod: frankly, how useful it is for the player is completely irrelevant, that line is there purely for the GM's benefit. And no, there are not specific rulings or guidelines around it - that's the whole point, it's a feature not a bug. While I don't like a system that is as vague/broad as 5e, I think having a few clauses that do require adjudication (particularly around the more powerful options available to players) is a valuable thing.

And Teleportation is very powerful; as the Giant himself has said, it has a lot of potential to destroy plot entirely. The GM's job meanwhile is to engage. I don't think that clause should be used to soft-ban teleportation entirely, but giving it more of a tradeoff than just costing a 5th-level slot to pop out of the big bad's latrine isn't a bad thing.

[Necroticplague]

@Grod: frankly, how useful it is for the player is completely irrelevant, that line is there purely for the GM's benefit. And no, there are not specific rulings or guidelines around it - that's the whole point, it's a feature not a bug. While I don't like a system that is as vague/broad as 5e, I think having a few clauses that do require adjudication (particularly around the more powerful options available to players) is a valuable thing.

And Teleportation is very powerful; as the Giant himself has said, it has a lot of potential to destroy plot entirely. The GM's job meanwhile is to engage. I don't think that clause should be used to soft-ban teleportation entirely, but giving it more of a tradeoff than just costing a 5th-level slot to pop out of the big bad's latrine isn't a bad thing.

I don't see why such a horrifically vague clause to provide a restriction is necessary when much more specific, tangible restrictions and options exist that do the same thing. Don't want them to get too close to the BBEG via teleport abruptly? There's Wierdstone, Forbiddance, Teleport Cage, and probably some things from Stronghold Builder's Handbook that can due that very explicitly perform the same task without such vague BS.

[Pope Scarface]

I love the idea of a dragon's hoard or an emperor's treasury having so many magic items that teleporting in carries extra risk or may be impossible entirely. My gaming group has been completely ignoring this rule, just from not knowing about it, and they are going to love it.

How often does it come up that a forgotten/little known rule actually makes certain fantasy tropes make more sense, rather than ruining them? I mean, I know the gamist types are going to hate this rule because they see it as just a nerf to teleport that they can't easily rules lawyer around because of vagueness, but for everyone else seems pretty awesome.

[Fizban]

There's Wierdstone, Forbiddance, Teleport Cage, and probably some things from Stronghold Builder's Handbook that can due that very explicitly perform the same task without such vague BS.
All of which are expensive, require high level casters, or both. This then makes people whine about how magic is required to ever do anything. So there's a line in Teleport that says "hey DM, you don't need specific spells or magic items to block this."


Was just thinking about the 5e Teleport, which is actually a town portal/return spell that can only take you to known towns with prepared places. One could ban Teleport and replace it with or turn it into this- or you could invoke the energy clause worldwide, so that only certain prepared or naturally insulated areas are safe to Teleport into, and trying to use/target it anywhere else is known to be a Bad Idea.

[Psyren]

I don't see why such a horrifically vague clause to provide a restriction is necessary when much more specific, tangible restrictions and options exist that do the same thing. Don't want them to get too close to the BBEG via teleport abruptly? There's Wierdstone, Forbiddance, Teleport Cage, and probably some things from Stronghold Builder's Handbook that can due that very explicitly perform the same task without such vague BS.

And I'm happy those options exist too, but maybe I want to mitigate teleportation's effect without having a specific artifact, or a high-level cleric covering every 60ft. cube of my stronghold, or access to 9th-level spells.

[Kobold Esq]

Bah. One of the greatest works of fiction of all time, Worm, never once pulled a trick of making a power just not function for reasons of plot, and would on occasion allow the synergistic use of powers to outright overcome stated limits. The closest it ever got to this kind of power limiting shenanigans was literally an act of the in-world equivalent to a dying god and it STILL was neither complete nor did it accomplish what the god intended. This isn't to say powers are never thwarted. When two powers come into conflict someone has to lose, but that's not plot based negation.

Fiction is written by an author. That author made decisions. Just like someone else mentioned areas of wild/dead magic. The DM decides where the adventure location is. If the DM picks it to be in a dead magic zone, or just a Bond villain-esque volcano lair to take advantage of teleport's weaknesses, I don't see that as being significantly different.

I'm not advocating a DM saying "this spell doesn't work because I don't want it to." I'm saying I am fine with a spell having a "get out of spell free" clause baked into the text. I don't see this as significantly different from scry being blocked by lead. The DM can decide when the baddies have lead rooms too.

[Dragovon]

In the 3rd party AP Zeitgeist, they used gold to stop it, with a fair amount of rules for it. In their AP War of the Burning Sky, they had a global event effect it. Both of them worked pretty well. As a GM, you can create any means you wish to stop or limit it. As a player, you're subject to what the GM allows. I'd suggest taking a look at these 2 options and see what you think.

[Rynjin]

Meh, I think there is something to be said in favor of this. Anyone who enjoys comics, or comic based games (Mutants and Masterminds, etc) should be used to the idea of GM fiat. Sometimes things don't work because PLOT, or the bad guy escapes because SUSPENSE. In MnM the players are awarded an action point for it, but in comics in general it is a common trope that "X power doesn't work because the author doesn't want it to".

And there-in lies the difference, along with the much bigger difference that M&M players are encouraged to, on occasion, screw THEMSELVES over for action points later and to build the story. Those action points can then be used so that the player can as well Fiat a convenient plot device into existence at a certain time or "edit" a scene to include something the GM did not initially describe but is plausible to be there (a sprinkler system for Water Man, master of H2O, to boost his powers for example).

M&M's take on GM Fiat, in essence, exists to give the players more agency rather than take it away. D&D has no such system or contract in place to excuse or encourage that kind of behavior. It generally just negatively impacts player-GM trust.

RE: The main subject: Harry Potter style moving architecture would suffice just fine, along with sufficiently thick or lead-lined walls to prevent scrying. There's still a chance the teleporters get in but if they do there's a better chance of them appearing in a wall (or trap, for that matter) and getting shunted 50 miles away instead. The moving architecture need not be magic, just implausible (Ex)traordinary architecture akin to pyramids in mummy movies.

[Yahzi]

the "rule of cool" pains me to my very core.
You are not alone.

In books, movies, games... in every form of story-telling, this idea that a cool scene trumps all requirements of narrative just makes me :smallfurious:.

[Yogibear41]

You are not alone.

In books, movies, games... in every form of story-telling, this idea that a cool scene trumps all requirements of narrative just makes me :smallfurious:.

Once had a player in our game that thought he should be able to do pretty much whatever he wanted just because he thought it was cool. (Not to mention blatantly cheating constantly)

The guy was also a jerk, I'd have more "nice" things to say about him, but I'm pretty sure they would be against the forum rules. Luckily he is long gone from our gaming group.

[Psyren]

M&M's take on GM Fiat, in essence, exists to give the players more agency rather than take it away. D&D has no such system or contract in place to excuse or encourage that kind of behavior. It generally just negatively impacts player-GM trust.

Frankly, if you need special rules to create trust in your playgroup instead of actually just, you know, trusting each other - your playgroup has problems that no rulebook is going to fix.

The designers added lines like this to give the DM an out beyond just banning the spell entirely or being forced to devise the kinds of Xanatos Gambits that can account for every powerful bit of magic the players get access to. It also reintroduces a little of the mystery, unpredictability and danger that magic is supposed to be known for in fiction. These are all good things.

[Bakkan]

Disallowing teleportation effects, even without relying on vague-to-the-point-of-meaningless fluff text, doesn't require any special cleverness or Xanatos gambits. The forbiddance spell, weirdstones, and other magical defenses exist for precisely that reason. The problem comes in when you want a mundane way to do it. It makes perfect sense, however, that you would need magic to counter magic in some cases, just as you need advanced technological defenses (e.g. laser-shooting satellites) to defend against advanced technological weapons (e.g. ICBMs).

[VoxRationis]

Fill the floor with blocks that rotate between a horizontal, flush-with-the-ground position and a vertical position. A mechanism powered by something like a waterwheel causes the pattern of which of these blocks are vertical to shift periodically. This will keep the layout of the room too unpredictable to teleport in safely.

[Rynjin]

Frankly, if you need special rules to create trust in your playgroup instead of actually just, you know, trusting each other - your playgroup has problems that no rulebook is going to fix.

The designers added lines like this to give the DM an out beyond just banning the spell entirely or being forced to devise the kinds of Xanatos Gambits that can account for every powerful bit of magic the players get access to. It also reintroduces a little of the mystery, unpredictability and danger that magic is supposed to be known for in fiction. These are all good things.

Game rules shouldn't be unpredictable or infinitely malleable in the minute-to-minute sense. If you want to play that kind of game there's no point in having a ruleset. A is A except in extreme scenarios. If A becomes B whenever it is convenient, it is better for A to not be a valid option in the first place.

Why people keep trying to make a game have the same feel as a book or what have you is beyond me. If you want the same feel as other fiction, consume other fiction.

[Psyren]

Disallowing teleportation effects, even without relying on vague-to-the-point-of-meaningless fluff text, doesn't require any special cleverness or Xanatos gambits. The forbiddance spell, weirdstones, and other magical defenses exist for precisely that reason. The problem comes in when you want a mundane way to do it. It makes perfect sense, however, that you would need magic to counter magic in some cases, just as you need advanced technological defenses (e.g. laser-shooting satellites) to defend against advanced technological weapons (e.g. ICBMs).

Even if you have magic, the stuff you listed isn't always widely available. Not every setting is FR where you can throw a stone and hit a gajillion sympathetic 12th-level clerics, or trip over level 20 items on every streetcorner.

And it's not just about countering magic either, i.e. entity A trying to protect location B from teleporter C. The wording of that clause is such that the interference can occur unintentionally. This gives the GM a lever to pull if the party is running headlong off the rails and teleporting somewhere they shouldn't be going, or if you want to make backtracking a little more perilous and less automatic. In short, it's a tool in the DM's toolbelt, nothing more or less; all tools can be abused, but that doesn't make the tools themselves bad.


Game rules shouldn't be unpredictable or infinitely malleable in the minute-to-minute sense. If you want to play that kind of game there's no point in having a ruleset. A is A except in extreme scenarios. If A becomes B whenever it is convenient, it is better for A to not be a valid option in the first place.

"You can't teleport past the dungeon and straight to the boss room/vault this time" is no reason to fling all your toys out of the pram and refuse to eat your peas.


Why people keep trying to make a game have the same feel as a book or what have you is beyond me. If you want the same feel as other fiction, consume other fiction.

Why would you willingly limit the kinds of stories you can tell? I like having stories where a simple teleport can save the day, and stories where it can't. Both have merit, you know?

[TaiLiu]

As much as I love wierdstones (and I've always actually used the 2e version in my 3.5 games, didn't realise they'd made a 3e version for it), they're most definitely magical. 250,000gp magical even.
Oh, I know. I even say so in the quote. But I put it there just in case Yogibear41 was thinking of weirdstones and forgot that they were magical.

[Rynjin]

Why would you willingly limit the kinds of stories you can tell? I like having stories where a simple teleport can save the day, and stories where it can't. Both have merit, you know?

And in that case, simply make that kind of magic unavailable to PCs. Instead of coming up with ever more contrived reasons it doesn't work this time, just ban it.

Trying to do both just makes an inconsistent world. Either teleport is a reliable means of saving the day that is only blocked by very specific things (which already exist in the ruleset) or it isn't due to a pre-established houserule or some setting element (exploring a world where teleporting doesn't work in urban areas because there are too many machines could be interesting as an example).

What I take issue with is the advice of "Just fiat it on a case by case". That should never be your go-to response as a GM. Anticipate, plan, world build. Vague lines (I hesitate to refer to it as a rule since it's so non-specific) like that hurt things more than they help since they basically exist as a blanket card of "It works until you say it doesn't".

[Bakkan]

Why would you willingly limit the kinds of stories you can tell? I like having stories where a simple teleport can save the day, and stories where it can't. Both have merit, you know?

There's no need to limit the kinds of stories you can tell. If you want the latter kind of story, then either have the enemies take the precautions against teleportation that already exist (which as a bonus gives the players a lot of new ways to approach the problem, such as capturing a mook and learning the password from him), or disallow the abilities that your story will break beneath. Saying "it just doesn't work this time" is boring, inconsistent, and frustrating.


And in that case, simply make that kind of magic unavailable to PCs. Instead of coming up with ever more contrived reasons it doesn't work this time, just ban it.

Trying to do both just makes an inconsistent world. Either teleport is a reliable means of saving the day that is only blocked by very specific things (which already exist in the ruleset) or it isn't due to a pre-established houserule or some setting element (exploring a world where teleporting doesn't work in urban areas because there are too many machines could be interesting as an example).

What I take issue with is the advice of "Just fiat it on a case by case". That should never be your go-to response as a GM. Anticipate, plan, world build. Vague lines (I hesitate to refer to it as a rule since it's so non-specific) like that hurt things more than they help since they basically exist as a blanket card of "It works until you say it doesn't".

Agreed entirely.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What I take issue with is the advice of "Just fiat it on a case by case". That should never be your go-to response as a GM. Anticipate, plan, world build. Vague lines (I hesitate to refer to it as a rule since it's so non-specific) like that hurt things more than they help since they basically exist as a blanket card of "It works until you say it doesn't".
This.

I would love if the game included more mundane ways to mess with magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517511-Small-Tweaks-for-a-Better-Game-Mundane-Antimagic), like lead blocking divination spells. I'm glad the Teleport line exists, I just wish it gave you a slightly better idea of what "high energy" meant. As a player, it would be nice to not have to ask every new GM how they were going to interpret it. As a GM, it would be nice to have an official guideline to follow so that the decision feels more "this is how the world works" and less "this is how I want the story to work." If I'm playing 3.5, it's because I want a lot of rules to model the world, you know?

[Fizban]

Hey, you know what else sometimes just doesn't work? Technology. Solar flares muck up satellites, some guy's truck parked across the way or a new building blocks the radio waves and kills your reception, or your computer just crashes. For practical purposes these happen randomly: the user can't predict solar flares, reception can be great one day and terrible the next in the very same place, and who knows what tiny memory error made you crash today and not tomorrow.

But magic is supposed to be realistically predictable, right? Because if the players can't look up the exact stats of every monster and spell and flawless victory every time, it's not fair.

And I can't help but think the kind of people who whine about Teleport not working in a certain area are the kind of people who don't bother even trying to check- that wouldn't know the difference between Forbiddance, high energy interference, or "because I said so." Maybe use one of those perfect Divinations or Contact Other Planes to ask if it's going to work before you plan your entire mission around it. You're an adventurer that supposedly made it all the way from level 1 to level 9 without Teleport, and you suddenly can't handle being an adventurer?

[Jowgen]

Anchor mists might fit the bill. Dungeonscape p. 140. I'm not entirely sure if they are mundane, but they aren't listed as magical.

Flux slime generates an AMF, so it could be used to stop teleportation. It's not exactly what I'd call mundane... but it's not exactly magical, either, more like "Pun-pun divided by zero here, so the fabric of reality is losing it's ****. Tread carefully."

I second the Anchor mist. I have in fact been meaning to look into ways to exploit the stuff, just haven't got around to it sadly.

Also, in line with flux slime, there is a tree for that: Sussur, or "Deeproot", from Underdark p. 108. To quote my guide on special plants: "A rare, magical, faerzres-dependent tree with long gnarled branches and banyan-like aerial roots found in the largest underdark caverns. Grows to 60 ft of height, has very few leaves, and absorbs magic, creating massive (i.e. several 100 ft) antimagic fields.". As long as you keep it supplied with magic energy, taking a sapling out of the Underdark shouldn't be an issue.

[Psyren]

Hey, you know what else sometimes just doesn't work? Technology. Solar flares muck up satellites, some guy's truck parked across the way or a new building blocks the radio waves and kills your reception, or your computer just crashes. For practical purposes these happen randomly: the user can't predict solar flares, reception can be great one day and terrible the next in the very same place, and who knows what tiny memory error made you crash today and not tomorrow.

But magic is supposed to be realistically predictable, right? Because if the players can't look up the exact stats of every monster and spell and flawless victory every time, it's not fair.

And I can't help but think the kind of people who whine about Teleport not working in a certain area are the kind of people who don't bother even trying to check- that wouldn't know the difference between Forbiddance, high energy interference, or "because I said so." Maybe use one of those perfect Divinations or Contact Other Planes to ask if it's going to work before you plan your entire mission around it. You're an adventurer that supposedly made it all the way from level 1 to level 9 without Teleport, and you suddenly can't handle being an adventurer?

This.


I would love if the game included more mundane ways to mess with magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517511-Small-Tweaks-for-a-Better-Game-Mundane-Antimagic), like lead blocking divination spells. I'm glad the Teleport line exists, I just wish it gave you a slightly better idea of what "high energy" meant. As a player, it would be nice to not have to ask every new GM how they were going to interpret it. As a GM, it would be nice to have an official guideline to follow so that the decision feels more "this is how the world works" and less "this is how I want the story to work." If I'm playing 3.5, it's because I want a lot of rules to model the world, you know?

I certainly don't mind there being examples. Maybe there's an adventure path or module out there that uses this line.

But ultimately it doesn't matter, because that line is entirely in the GM's control. So even if you established "A volcano of Vesuvius strength or greater qualifies" - the GM can still just stick such a volcano next to the bad guy's doom base.


There's no need to limit the kinds of stories you can tell. If you want the latter kind of story, then either have the enemies take the precautions against teleportation that already exist (which as a bonus gives the players a lot of new ways to approach the problem, such as capturing a mook and learning the password from him), or disallow the abilities that your story will break beneath. Saying "it just doesn't work this time" is boring, inconsistent, and frustrating.

Why do people keep ignoring the "hazardous" clause? You have quite a lot of daylight between "works perfectly" and "passive aggressive ban." Be creative.

[Bakkan]

Why do people keep ignoring the "hazardous" clause? You have quite a lot of daylight between "works perfectly" and "passive aggressive ban." Be creative.

Because typically "hazardous" implies "soft-ban". People don't wear armor that grants them even a 5% chance of spell failure chance, Frenzied Berzerker is considered an extremely unwise choice of prestige class in nearly all cases, and so forth. The teleport spell already has a failure chance; the table's right in the spell description. Adding in additional, undefined hazards means people just don't do it. If you were told by your mechanic "you can drive your car today, but if you do then something bad might happen" with no further details or clarification, then you would be a fool to drive it even a foot.

[Psyren]

Because typically "hazardous" implies "soft-ban". People don't wear armor that grants them even a 5% chance of spell failure chance, Frenzied Berzerker is considered an extremely unwise choice of prestige class in nearly all cases, and so forth. The teleport spell already has a failure chance; the table's right in the spell description. Adding in additional, undefined hazards means people just don't do it. If you were told by your mechanic "you can drive your car today, but if you do then something bad might happen" with no further details or clarification, then you would be a fool to drive it even a foot.

And if there's a natural disaster about to hit, or a zombie outbreak? Say you have to get out of town before the roads are closed entirely. Would you still leave the car behind and go on foot, or take your chances? Which course of action would make you the fool?

Yes it's a risk, but the point is to have choices and tradeoffs. If there is a tight time limit - as many adventures have - teleporting may still be the best option even with a drawback. But now it is no longer automatically superior to every other strategy. Maybe if your party finishes the current phase of the adventure quickly enough, they will have the luxury of a slower but safer means of getting where they need to go (like riding phantom steeds.) Or you can still teleport safely, to just outside of the area that is being impacted by the energy, and travel the rest of the way conventionally. As Fizban mentioned, you're not totally blind - if you have access to teleportation, you have access to some divinations that will help you evaluate these consequences. But if there's absolutely no time left, you teleport and deal with whatever issue there might be, trusting that your GM isn't going to say "you land in the sun, lol, roll up new characters." Again, be creative, there's lots of ways to handle this.

And if your GM does do that, then you're playing with a jerk, and no amount of words in the rulebook will cure that anyway.

[Necroticplague]

Hey, you know what else sometimes just doesn't work? Technology. Solar flares muck up satellites, some guy's truck parked across the way or a new building blocks the radio waves and kills your reception, or your computer just crashes. For practical purposes these happen randomly: the user can't predict solar flares, reception can be great one day and terrible the next in the very same place, and who knows what tiny memory error made you crash today and not tomorrow.
1.There's a difference between random and arbitrary. Technologies failures may appear random (they aren't, but let's concede that point), but they're not arbitrary. And, more relevantly, they're not occurring because of things with agencies. Those failures are like rolling poorly on a dice roll: random, but not arbitrary and possible to confuse for someone screwing you over.
2. Real life also isn't intended to be a fun game, while tabletop games, like DnD, are.

But magic is supposed to be realistically predictable, right? Not necessarilly. It should be equally predictable throughout the rules. If you want a magic system that works mostly based off of sucking up to/off the the DM, then make it like that throughout (see: NWOD mage). If you want a magic system that represents a world where the rules are different from our own, but still actual rules, then you make the thing consistent throughout. Slapping elements of one into the other at relative random just smacks of left hand not talking to right hand when designing things.

You're an adventurer that supposedly made it all the way from level 1 to level 9 without Teleport, and you suddenly can't handle being an adventurer?Adventuring at level 9 is different than adventuring at level 1 in ways that are both quantitative, and qualitative. Generally, the scope of where your adventurers cover is one such qualitative difference. Things that were unnecessary or overkill at level 1 can become necessities as the scope increases.

[Segev]

On "just ban it for PCs (but NPCs can get it)," that gets very frustrating very quickly. It CAN be done, of course, and done acceptably. "No, you can't play a dragon, but they will be out there." But when it's something like, "Only NPCs can teleport," and the only difference is whether the character(s) are controlled by the GM or the players, it starts to be...disappointing...very quickly.

"Yeah, yeah, I get it. PCs don't get to have cool toys; those are reserved for the DM's plot-important NPCs so they can show how awesome they are compared to the PCs."

[Psyren]

2. Real life also isn't intended to be a fun game, while tabletop games, like DnD, are.

If your entire concept of fun hinges on being able to teleport anywhere you want whenever you want regardless of campaign, I'm really not sure what else there is to say. The designers clearly did not have you in mind when they wrote the spell.


On "just ban it for PCs (but NPCs can get it)," that gets very frustrating very quickly. It CAN be done, of course, and done acceptably. "No, you can't play a dragon, but they will be out there." But when it's something like, "Only NPCs can teleport," and the only difference is whether the character(s) are controlled by the GM or the players, it starts to be...disappointing...very quickly.

"Yeah, yeah, I get it. PCs don't get to have cool toys; those are reserved for the DM's plot-important NPCs so they can show how awesome they are compared to the PCs."

"You can teleport here but there may be hazards associated with doing so" is not "you cannot teleport." Unless, again, your GM is an ass.

[Necroticplague]

If your entire concept of fun hinges on being able to teleport anywhere you want whenever you want regardless of campaign, I'm really not sure what else there is to say. The designers clearly did not have you in mind when they wrote the spell.

I, personally, don't give a rats rear about teleport itself. Don't like playing spellcasters, and I resent how things like Teleport force a party to have magic of some form if they actually want to participate in genuinely higher level play (as opposed to lower level play with bigger numbers). I merely dislike vague, not really defined rules at random places in a system where things are usually rather concrete. It's my own preference that both sides of the screen play by the same rules in a transparent manner (thus, why I prefer pfs monster character rules to 3.5).

[Bakkan]

And if there's a natural disaster about to hit, or a zombie outbreak? Say you have to get out of town before the roads are closed entirely. Would you still leave the car behind and go on foot, or take your chances? Which course of action would make you the fool?

Taking the car would make you the fool. For all you know, as soon as you turn the key there's a 99% chance the whole vehicle blows up.


Yes it's a risk, but the point is to have choices and tradeoffs. If there is a tight time limit - as many adventures have - teleporting may still be the best option even with a drawback. But now it is no longer automatically superior to every other strategy. Maybe if your party finishes the current phase of the adventure quickly enough, they will have the luxury of a slower but safer means of getting where they need to go (like riding phantom steeds.) Or you can still teleport safely, to just outside of the area that is being impacted by the energy, and travel the rest of the way conventionally. As Fizban mentioned, you're not totally blind - if you have access to teleportation, you have access to some divinations that will help you evaluate these consequences. But if there's absolutely no time left, you teleport and deal with whatever issue there might be, trusting that your GM isn't going to say "you land in the sun, lol, roll up new characters." Again, be creative, there's lots of ways to handle this.

And if your GM does do that, then you're playing with a jerk, and no amount of words in the rulebook will cure that anyway.

You are quite correct as long as those risks are measurable. For instance, let's take a doomsday scenario where the party has to get to Evil McBadface's volcano lair. Here are three reasonable ways I as the DM could describe the risks associated with teleporting there.

"the volcano is an area of high physical energy and so any attempt to teleport there has a 50% chance of putting you in some random spot within your teleportation range"
"the spell can't properly distinguish between solid rock and open air, and so there's a 75% chance you end up inside some rock and get shunted to an empty place, taking damage as according to the rules for dimension door"
"the thermal energy of the magma inside the mountain attracts the teleportation energies you harness, and so there's a 25% chance you end up in the magma."

Each one of these is a reasonable interpretation of "hazardous," and none require a jerk DM. The party can use the information given to make a decision. In case 1) they might run the numbers to see that there's around a 33% chance that trying to teleport to the volcano will actually put them further away than they started. In case 2) they might be more willing to take the chance, since at worst they'll have to heal up a few d6's of damage. In case 3), very few parties would take the risk without first finding some way of protecting themselves from a bad end.

If the DM tells the party nothing except "it might be hazardous", the party has no a priori way of knowing which situation they're in.


There's a difference between random and arbitrary. Technologies failures may appear random (they aren't, but let's concede that point), but they're not arbitrary. And, more relevantly, they're not occurring because of things with agencies. Those failures are like rolling poorly on a dice roll: random, but not arbitrary and possible to confuse for someone screwing you over.

Agreed. Random failures are incorporated into the dice rolls.


Not necessarilly. It should be equally predictable throughout the rules. If you want a magic system that works mostly based off of sucking up to/off the the DM, then make it like that throughout (see: NWOD mage). If you want a magic system that represents a world where the rules are different from our own, but still actual rules, then you make the thing consistent throughout. Slapping elements of one into the other at relative random just smacks of left hand not talking to right hand when designing things.

Again, agreed. I want my successes to be because of my and my character's capabilities, not because the DM was feeling nice that one time.


Adventuring at level 9 is different than adventuring at level 1 in ways that are both quantitative, and qualitative. Generally, the scope of where your adventurers cover is one such qualitative difference. Things that were unnecessary or overkill at level 1 can become necessities as the scope increases.

Necroticplague, you are on a roll. If you want to have adventures where "get to this town" is a challenge, then play at levels 1-8, or disallow teleportation magic. On that note,


On "just ban it for PCs (but NPCs can get it)," that gets very frustrating very quickly. It CAN be done, of course, and done acceptably. "No, you can't play a dragon, but they will be out there." But when it's something like, "Only NPCs can teleport," and the only difference is whether the character(s) are controlled by the GM or the players, it starts to be...disappointing...very quickly.

"Yeah, yeah, I get it. PCs don't get to have cool toys; those are reserved for the DM's plot-important NPCs so they can show how awesome they are compared to the PCs."
You are completely correct on this. One of the most important aspects of 3.5 as a game is that the players and the NPC's play by the same rules, which means that for the most part the PC's can achieve anything an NPC can. I would, in any game in which I banned teleporation, remove it completely from the world and rework the setting to account for the change.

[unseenmage]

This is definitely a case of fluff being mistaken for crunch.

Doubtful that this section of text would hold up in the RAW Q&A threads nor the build competition threads as any kind of justification for anything.

Because it isn't a rule, it's a guideline.
As someone who has mistakenly droppen guidelines as rules and been schooled on it on these very boards by these very posters that is my impression anyway.

Does make me imagine a Villainous Lair competition thread being a neat thing though.
Would this "rule" hold up in such a scenario? Doubtful.

[Psyren]

Taking the car would make you the fool. For all you know, as soon as you turn the key there's a 99% chance the whole vehicle blows up.

Going on foot is 100% chance of you dying by not making it out on time. That you know for certain. So I have to say you're wrong.

Also, if the GM is going to 99% kill you outright for teleporting in such an area, you have a jerk for a GM. That is not an issue with the spell.



You are quite correct as long as those risks are measurable.

They ARE measurable! There are these wonderful things called divinations. You can use them to learn information that you don't yet know. Such as "what will happen if we try to teleport inside the bad guy's doombase volcano?" Or "Where is the closest place we can teleport to in complete safety?" You know, questions like that.

[Fizban]

1.There's a difference between random and arbitrary. Technologies failures may appear random (they aren't, but let's concede that point), but they're not arbitrary. And, more relevantly, they're not occurring because of things with agencies. Those failures are like rolling poorly on a dice roll: random, but not arbitrary and possible to confuse for someone screwing you over.
I don't really see the difference you're trying to make. Technology failures caused by forces outside your control are arbitrary and can be caused by things with agencies- a parked truck is random interference to the user, but it's caused the by arbitrary decision of that guy to park there, when he could have parked somewhere else. Like how the bad guy can choose to park their base in a place that's protected against teleport, intentionally or unintentionally. And, knowing possible things that interfere with radio reception, one can easily jump to the conclusion that a particular type of interference is the problem (cursing the service provider is popular), when it's actually something else.

So it sounds to me like what you don't like is the DM having the option to say "things happen" without justifying it. This is an ability they've always had, so no change. This doesn't mean the DM shouldn't justify it- they totally should, and if you investigate why your teleport didn't work as advertised they can point you to the clause in the spell and describe something that has caused a problem. The same way they could point to Forbiddance or Dimensional Lock.


Doubtful that this section of text would hold up in the RAW Q&A threads nor the build competition threads as any kind of justification for anything. . .
While I like a good industrializing thread or poking holes in a piece of cheese that doesn't even follow the rules, "RAW" doesn't actually mean anything. All of the rules are guidelines by definition, and every RAW argument depends first on a DM that holds RAW above everything else. A competition for making RAW villain lairs might not care about the interference clause, but in an actual game? Someone tries to argue RAW at me and I'll happily let them walk away.

[VoxRationis]

I'm not sure how part of a core rules spell description fails to be "rules as written," anyway. Is it a vague rule? Yes. Is it a rule not often used or referenced? Yes. But it's still a rule.