Dobbelganger+Unholy Scion build - Negative LA adjustment question [Archive]

Incarnate

2017-11-02, 08:02 AM

I am likewise only aware of this one template.

If you want to play characters like this, take the DM seat, and you'll be able to play out all your crazy character ideas without worry, because while a doppelganger unholy scion is an ECL13 character, it's only a CR4 enemy. Sure, it'll only last as long as it takes for the players to take him out, but as a doppelganger, he should be able to become a reccuring villain easily enough, and as he grows throughout the game, you can give him class levels and his CR will increase steadily with the party, rather than being a 4HD ECL13 character trying to stand next to players who are throwing around 7th level spells.

Also, for LA buyoff, with 9LA, you won't be buying off your first LA until you've got 27 class levels, so that's not happening anytime soon.

Edit: Unholy scion can only be applied to animals and humanoids. Doppelgangers are monstrous humanoids, and are thus not elidgible for the template.

I'm not sure why I thought there were several, but I think you're right that officially there only one template that has a negative adjustment, could be it was a race with negative LA (minimum of 0) perhaps I was thinking of, or maybe some homebrew?

Yes, but I wanted to play this as a player and I realized that the LA was going to be steep hence why I'm looking for ways to decrease the LA a bit. As I also mentioned that I'm open for either, I would like to say that the dobbelganger is the preferable one, as that one will open up for much of the sneaky covert play. On the other hand, so could the Unholy Scion, perhaps through fiend of possession - I realize there probably would be some races with lower LA that could get into it, but its more the flavour and fluff I'm after, not really about making it optimal but certainly efficient would do.

Edit: A humanoid is still a humanoid monstrous or not, I don't see where it says that monstrous humanoids would be excluded from the list of humanoids if its not explicitly mentioned. Also, why should taint not be able to affect a monstrous humanoid?

ShurikVch

2017-11-02, 09:25 AM

My suggestion: Tauric Creature - the "base humanoid" is Changeling, and the "base creature" - some quadrupedal Animal with Unholy Scion template.
(Changelings are from Human+Doppelganger origin)
3 HD and LA +3

If you want to make it even more Doppelganger-like, Dragon #313 have Half-Doppelganger template (LA +2)

Also, Faceless One PrC from Dragon #300 - to increase the "Doppelgangerness"
(I could suggest Cabinet Trickster PrC, but Cabinet of Faces is in Eberron, not Forgotten Realms)

could be it was a race with negative LANumber of creatures (not templates!) from the Epic Level Handbook are, actually, have negative LA: they all have truckload of racial HD, thus negative adjustment needed to cut down their ECL

The lowest adjustments are:
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal): -22 (66 HD, ECL 44)
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm): -23 (50 HD, ECL 27)
Ruin Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/ruinSwarm.htm): -25 (50 HD, ECL 25)

Crake

2017-11-02, 03:59 PM

Edit: A humanoid is still a humanoid monstrous or not, I don't see where it says that monstrous humanoids would be excluded from the list of humanoids if its not explicitly mentioned. Also, why should taint not be able to affect a monstrous humanoid?

Humanoid and monstrous humanoid are separate types. If something specifies it must be a humanoid, monstrous humanoids do not count, and vice versa. It's a common mistake, due to the way they decided to name the types, but that's just how it is.

It's late for me atm, but I'm sure someone else can back me up on that by quoting some sources.

Blue Jay

2017-11-02, 05:49 PM

My suggestion: Tauric Creature - the "base humanoid" is Changeling, and the "base creature" - some quadrupedal Animal with Unholy Scion template.
(Changelings are from Human+Doppelganger origin)
3 HD and LA +3

Unholy Scion changes creature type to Outsider, and Outsiders aren't eligible for Tauric, so this won't work. And even if it did, your DM would have to be a total moron to allow Tauric cheese.

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@Incarnate: With a flexible DM, you might be able to talk him into lowering the LA's a little bit. Show him Inevitability's LA-reassignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21262429&postcount=386), where it was decided that LA +0 is reasonable for the doppelganger. He may not accept that, but you might be able to reach some sort of compromise.

Incarnate

2017-11-04, 07:37 PM

Unholy Scion changes creature type to Outsider, and Outsiders aren't eligible for Tauric, so this won't work. And even if it did, your DM would have to be a total moron to allow Tauric cheese.

---

@Incarnate: With a flexible DM, you might be able to talk him into lowering the LA's a little bit. Show him Inevitability's LA-reassignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21262429&postcount=386), where it was decided that LA +0 is reasonable for the doppelganger. He may not accept that, but you might be able to reach some sort of compromise.

I've asked the GM, and he's not sure if he will let me play it with a reduced LA and especially with an LA of 0, but that have something to do with he's not sure on how it can be justified from a mechanics point of view. From I've been able to gather it generally partly has something to do with the racial hds's affecting potential caster levels, amount of feats, skill points and such.

I don't know, maybe one could clarify, elaborate, expand or simplify the mechanical justifications to adjusting the LA's

Also, it was stated that there is a difference between humanoid and monstrous humanoid in relation to beng eligible to other templates such as the unholy, any one who knows where the rule is?

If I have to choose between either the dobbelganger or the base rase with unholy scion, which one would you recommend, when I'm trying to make a sneaky covert like character who will trying to get his sinister deity to becoming the most worshipped in the area, for starters.? Otherwise, if he I can persuade him to allow me to use Inevitability's list as is or close to, then I might actually consider going for a fiend of sorts and run a fiend of possesion / Corruption or Blasphemy, or maybe two of them which ever would make good sense to combine - Corruption + Blasphemy perhaps, or Possession + Blasphemy for the sneaky one. Question is, which one would fit the best for either of these combinations?

[Edit]
I think I found something about it - at least it states that they're different types, so I'm assuming that would have to be explicitly stating monstrous humanoid for it to be eligible.
Is there something that could justify bending a template requirement to also include monstrous humanoid when it already includes humanoids? Monsters can be tainted too I reckon.
Because if he would allow me to use the doppelganger at LA 0 and would bend the requirement, then I could play an Doppelganger with unholy scion at LA+5, which would be quite strong and it would qualify for the Fiend of PrC's.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-04, 08:01 PM

Incarnate

2017-11-04, 09:23 PM

Wizards of the Coast writers categorically underestimate the burden of high level adjustments, and categorically overestimate the power of racial features versus class features. Basically, they know jack **** about balance. For example, the doppelganger's LA +4 was re-evaluated here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21262429&postcount=386), and set to +0, because doppelgangers just don't do anything.

The Unholy Scion has too much LA as well. You can't apply it to doppelgangers normally, but let's assume you get DM permission. The template comes with some nice defensive abilities (fast healing, CHA deflection to AC, SR, minor resistances, immunity to mind-affecting), decent stats, and a nice suite of SLAs, including enervation, dominate person, animate dead, true seeing, gate, and polymorph any object. Trouble is: most of these SLAs come online very late. For example, you get enervation at 5 HD + 5 LA, meaning you're three full levels behind a straight wizard 7 (and two caster levels, too). Animate dead is a second-level spell, but comes online at ECL 16 (!). Gate and PAO only come online at epic levels, well beyond the point where they can set a character apart from the masses.

I'd peg Unholy Scion at LA +3, putting it in the Phrenic/Half-Fiend/Half-Celestial range.

That doesn't mean an Unholy Scion doppelganger is a good idea optimization-wise, but at ECL 7, it'll at least be a playable implementation of the concept, instead of incredibly weak and unsatisfying.

That makes a lot of sense and I agree with that, this might just be what is needed to "persuade" him.

Though I'm a little curious, if the unholy scion template is applied to the doppelganger, as a doppelganger has 4 HD would it mean that it gets both charm person and desecrate, and once you put the first class level on it then it would get enervation and protection from good?

Also, what would be its skill cap? Because normally the skill cap is based on actual level +3, how is the maximum skill level for a monstrous humanoid player character determined?
Would it be racial hd's + class levels/hd's + 3? Because an unholy scion receives 8+int mod x (HD+3), which would then be just for it racial skill points be (without modifiers) 8x(4+3) = 56 skill pts. So for instance an unholy scion doppelganger / Character level 1 would have a skill cap at 8 (4+3+1)? Does that seem correct?

ATHATH

2017-11-04, 09:36 PM

That makes a lot of sense and I agree with that, this might just be what is needed to "persuade" him.

Though I'm a little curious, if the unholy scion template is applied to the doppelganger, as a doppelganger has 4 HD would it mean that it gets both charm person and desecrate, and once you put the first class level on it then it would get enervation and protection from good?

Also, what would be its skill cap? Because normally the skill cap is based on actual level +3, how is the maximum skill level for a monstrous humanoid player character determined?
Would it be racial hd's + class levels/hd's + 3? Because an unholy scion receives 8+int mod x (HD+3), which would then be just for it racial skill points be (without modifiers) 8x(4+3) = 56 skill pts. So for instance an unholy scion doppelganger / Character level 1 would have a skill cap at 8 (4+3+1)? Does that seem correct?
No, that is not correct.

I have a feeling that this will be useful to you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

Incarnate

2017-11-04, 09:54 PM

No, that is not correct.

I have a feeling that this will be useful to you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

That is helpful indeed, however from what I read there what I wrote would be correct because it specifies that its HD+3, which is actually what I wrote, just a bit more cryptic.
As far as I understand, the racial hd's is still hd's, so therefor a doppelganger would have 4+3 for its skill cap? So if class levels was added to it, then it would be HD+Class Levels +3 for its cap? Thats what I get from it.

The part with it being 8+int mod x (hd+3) is taken straight from the unholy scion template, so I can't see how that would be incorrect. The template specifically states that hit dice from class levels should be not be included for the calculation of skill points. So maybe you care to elaborate what I've misunderstood here?

ATHATH

2017-11-04, 10:25 PM

That is helpful indeed, however from what I read there what I wrote would be correct because it specifies that its HD+3, which is actually what I wrote, just a bit more cryptic.
As far as I understand, the racial hd's is still hd's, so therefor a doppelganger would have 4+3 for its skill cap? So if class levels was added to it, then it would be HD+Class Levels +3 for its cap? Thats what I get from it.

The part with it being 8+int mod x (hd+3) is taken straight from the unholy scion template, so I can't see how that would be incorrect. The template specifically states that hit dice from class levels should be not be included for the calculation of skill points. So maybe you care to elaborate what I've misunderstood here?
Sorry, I misread your post. Yeah, you seem to be right, as far as I can tell.

Incarnate

2017-11-04, 11:07 PM

Sorry, I misread your post. Yeah, you seem to be right, as far as I can tell.

No worries, its better to double check ;)

Although there is something that is a little confusing. If I were to use Inevitability's reassigned LA for doppelganger then it would be 0 wouldn't its ECL be 0+class level?
So if I added unholy scion then ECL would be 0+5+class level? So say a doppelganger unholy scion / Cleric 1 would be an ECL of 6? Because according to ExLibrisMortis, if the Unholy Scion was adjusted to being +3 LA then a doppelganger would be 7, I'm assuming he's not using the reassigned LA for the doppelganger - that is what is seems to me. So with the above example but with Unholy scion adjusted to +3 LA then the same unholy scion doppelganger / Cleric 1 would have and ECL of 4, unless I've misunderstood something.

Could also be Racial HD's + LA's + Class levels = ECL. Because if so, then ExLibrisMortis would be correct, even with the doppelgangers LA being reassigned.

I also had considered taking levels in a major bloodline in either devil or demon, but it doesn't seem as viable, where the unholy scions seems a lot stronger compared to it. But maybe combining it would be strong although I could be wasting 3 class levels on a blood line the really wouldn't add all that much.

Remuko

2017-11-04, 11:40 PM

No worries, its better to double check ;)

Although there is something that is a little confusing. If I were to use Inevitability's reassigned LA for doppelganger then it would be 0 wouldn't its ECL be 0+class level?
So if I added unholy scion then ECL would be 0+5+class level? So say a doppelganger unholy scion / Cleric 1 would be an ECL of 6? Because according to ExLibrisMortis, if the Unholy Scion was adjusted to being +3 LA then a doppelganger would be 7, I'm assuming he's not using the reassigned LA for the doppelganger - that is what is seems to me. So with the above example but with Unholy scion adjusted to +3 LA then the same unholy scion doppelganger / Cleric 1 would have and ECL of 4, unless I've misunderstood something.

Could also be Racial HD's + LA's + Class levels = ECL. Because if so, then ExLibrisMortis would be correct, even with the doppelgangers LA being reassigned.

I also had considered taking levels in a major bloodline in either devil or demon, but it doesn't seem as viable, where the unholy scions seems a lot stronger compared to it. But maybe combining it would be strong although I could be wasting 3 class levels on a blood line the really wouldn't add all that much.

ECL is total HD + LA. So Doppleganger has 4HD and Inev gave it +0 LA which means its ECL 4 or ECL 5 if you add one class level. If unholy Scion was +3 LA then a Unholy Scion Doppel with 1 class level would be ECL 8.

Incarnate

2017-11-04, 11:57 PM

ECL is total HD + LA. So Doppleganger has 4HD and Inev gave it +0 LA which means its ECL 4 or ECL 5 if you add one class level. If unholy Scion was +3 LA then a Unholy Scion Doppel with 1 class level would be ECL 8.

But thats the thing, ECL = Class level + Level adjustment.
Not HD + LA, why? Because as far as I understand it, LA represents how good the racial HD's are, with the inherented abilities saves and such.
So by what you're saying you take Racial HD + Racial HD which means if you were to take and doppelganger as is, you would use the LA+4 and add to your ECL.
A doppelganger rogue 1, would have an ECL of 5 but according to what you just stated it would be an ECL of 9.

Nifft

2017-11-05, 12:17 AM

But thats the thing, ECL = Class level + Level adjustment.
Not HD + LA, why? Because as far as I understand it, LA represents how good the racial HD's are, with the inherented abilities saves and such.
So by what you're saying you take Racial HD + Racial HD which means if you were to take and doppelganger as is, you would use the LA+4 and add to your ECL.
A doppelganger rogue 1, would have an ECL of 5 but according to what you just stated it would be an ECL of 9. ECL = (total HD) + LA

Total HD = racial HD + class level HD

Most PCs don't have racial HD, so for most PCs it's true to say that ECL = class HD + LA -- but that's not true if you also have racial HD.

Another way to look at it:

Racial HD are effectively class levels in a "monster class".

You can find some example "monster class" progressions on the WotC archive, if you're interested.

Racial HD are usually pretty awful, and most people avoid them for exactly the same reason you're so eager to find a way to avoid them.

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 12:33 AM

ECL = (total HD) + LA

Total HD = racial HD + class level HD

Most PCs don't have racial HD, so for most PCs it's true to say that ECL = class HD + LA -- but that's not true if you also have racial HD.

Another way to look at it:

Racial HD are effectively class levels in a "monster class".

You can find some example "monster class" progressions on the WotC archive, if you're interested.

Racial HD are usually pretty awful, and most people avoid them for exactly the same reason you're so eager to find a way to avoid them.

Oh, yes I completely forgot about that, guess its because its late here I'm not thinking too clearly. I just remember LA to be described as a measure of how good the racial hd's are including the creatures inherent abilities, saves and such are. So it wouldn't make sense to use the racials twice because then you could just have said its racial hd's x2 + class levels, but its only in this case the racial hd's and la happen to be numerically the same.

Nifft

2017-11-05, 12:38 AM

Oh, yes I completely forgot about that, guess its because its late here I'm thinking too clearly. I just remember LA to be described as a measure of how good the racial hd's are including the creatures inherent abilities, saves and such are. So it wouldn't make sense to use the racials twice because then you could just have said its racial hd's x2 + class levels, but its only in this case the racial hd's and la happen to be numerically the same.

That's right.

LA and RHD are totally separate things.

You can have LA without any RHD, and (in theory) you could have RHD without any LA.

So, let's get back to helping you with your character.

What do you want from Doppelganger?

What do you want from Unholy Scion?

Maybe we can find you a better way to get what you actually want.

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 01:01 AM

That's right.

LA and RHD are totally separate things.

You can have LA without any RHD, and (in theory) you could have RHD without any LA.

So, let's get back to helping you with your character.

What do you want from Doppelganger?

What do you want from Unholy Scion?

Maybe we can find you a better way to get what you actually want.

In general what I want to play is a character that is worshipping a sinister/evil deity where it through covert and sneaky actions would subvert the religious orders present specifically through manipulation, turning others against them and so forth but if necessary use sneaky but deadly force, the end result to make the character's deity the main deity in the area, for starters. I find the doppelganger being a good base for this as it would be able to assume any form humanoid form necessary to blend in, gather information, sow dissent, etc. while also being able to detect the thoughts of those around would certainly help in furthering its goal. The unholy scion I think would fits well with the theme, plus it opens up for the fiend of PrC's. Which would make it possible for the ganger to begin establishing cults where it can actually begin to sponsor clerics once level 3 in the fiend of blasphemy. Any of the fiend PrC's could help it with its goal. Also, it being an Unholy Scion means that it can't be banished either which is plus as in contrast to playing normal type of fiend.

There might be many other angles, primarily I was aiming for the Fiend of PrC's to utilize because it fits so well with what this character would be doing.

ATHATH

2017-11-05, 01:19 AM

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 01:25 AM

The Corruptor class sounds like what you are looking for. It's like a Paladin, but NE and focused on corrupting divine spellcasters and making them fall.

Thats a homebrew class, correct? If so its a no go, he's not too keen on homebrew stuff.
- I like it, however it does seems unbalanced, like very unbalanced.

Nifft

2017-11-05, 01:33 AM

In general what I want to play is a character that is worshipping a sinister/evil deity where it through covert and sneaky actions would subvert the religious orders present specifically through manipulation, turning others against them and so forth but if necessary use sneaky but deadly force, the end result to make the character's deity the main deity in the area, for starters. I find the doppelganger being a good base for this as it would be able to assume any form humanoid form necessary to blend in, gather information, sow dissent, etc. while also being able to detect the thoughts of those around would certainly help in furthering its goal. The unholy scion I think would fits well with the theme, plus it opens up for the fiend of PrC's. Which would make it possible for the ganger to begin establishing cults where it can actually begin to sponsor clerics once level 3 in the fiend of blasphemy. Any of the fiend PrC's could help it with its goal. Also, it being an Unholy Scion means that it can't be banished either which is plus as in contrast to playing normal type of fiend.

There might be many other angles, primarily I was aiming for the Fiend of PrC's to utilize because it fits so well with what this character would be doing.

If you worship a deity, you don't need any Fiend of Blasphemy levels to support cultists. They'll get spells directly from your dark master. Fiend of Blasphemy is for servants of powerful demons & devils -- not for the servant of a god.

You can get unlimited face-changing in two straightforward ways:
- Changeling race (from MM3 or Eberron)
- Egoist level 1 alternative class feature (Expanded Psionics Handbook for Egoist, and this web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) for the ACF)

You can get unlimited disguise self spells -- which is better since it affects your clothing, but worse since it's an Illusion spell rather than physically changing your shape -- from one level of Binder (from Tome of Magic; bind Naberius for disguise self). Binder also gives you access to social skills, so you can use Diplomacy & Bluff to get the job done. At level 8, you can bind both Naberius and Dantallion, the latter of whom grants you at-will detect thoughts.

That's three ways to start playing the character you want at ECL 1.

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 01:48 AM

If you worship a deity, you don't need any Fiend of Blasphemy levels to support cultists. They'll get spells directly from your dark master. Fiend of Blasphemy is for servants of powerful demons & devils -- not for the servant of a god.

You can get unlimited face-changing in two straightforward ways:
- Changeling race (from MM3 or Eberron)
- Egoist level 1 alternative class feature (Expanded Psionics Handbook for Egoist, and this web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) for the ACF)

You can get unlimited disguise self spells -- which is better since it affects your clothing, but worse since it's an Illusion spell rather than physically changing your shape -- from one level of Binder (from Tome of Magic; bind Naberius for disguise self). Binder also gives you access to social skills, so you can use Diplomacy & Bluff to get the job done. At level 8, you can bind both Naberius and Dantallion, the latter of whom grants you at-will detect thoughts.

That's three ways to start playing the character you want at ECL 1.

Powerful devils or demons can work too.

Ebberon is a no go as its Forgotten Realms.
Just to be sure here, I'm not after an optimized build but I do certainly want to make it as efficient as possible.

One of the reasons I also went with the doppelganger as base is that its true identity can't be revealed so easily, and with undetectable alignment from fiend of blasphemy, it becomes a lot harder to actually detect. I was consider levels in binder, also have been considering the dark speech feat, which would go well with binder when binding Naberius. The giving a ganger more social skills just improves its ability to further its goal.

Although it doesn't necessarily have to be the doppelganger, other humanoids, monstrous humanoids and fiends could also work, as long as it can do what I'm trying to achieve with it.

ATHATH

2017-11-05, 01:53 AM

Thats a homebrew class, correct? If so its a no go, he's not too keen on homebrew stuff.
- I like it, however it does seems unbalanced, like very unbalanced.
No, it's from Dragon Magazine #313 (IIRC).

Here's a link to a transcript of the class over on Forgotten Realms Helps: http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/alternate/corrupter.shtml

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 01:56 AM

No, it's from Dragon Magazine #313 (IIRC).

Here's a link to a transcript of the class over on Forgotten Realms Helps: http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/alternate/corrupter.shtml

Thank you for the link, because I just did a quick google, what I found is certainly not the same as you linked to.
Looks interesting, but not quite what I was looking for, the main problem with it is that it requires it to be neutral and also, the spell casting from it is not that good, but it does have some nice passives. I must say that intercession and fallen soul makes it really tempting as that really would make it much more easy to subvert the clerics and paladins of good faiths. However, it doesn't really matter if its good, neutral or evil deity's, demon or devils, the main goal is to make the character's deity/powerful demon or devil the main one to be worshipped.

ATHATH

2017-11-05, 05:04 AM

Thank you for the link, because I just did a quick google, what I found is certainly not the same as you linked to.
Looks interesting, but not quite what I was looking for, the main problem with it is that it requires it to be neutral and also, the spell casting from it is not that good, but it does have some nice passives. I must say that intercession and fallen soul makes it really tempting as that really would make it much more easy to subvert the clerics and paladins of good faiths. However, it doesn't really matter if its good, neutral or evil deity's, demon or devils, the main goal is to make the character's deity/powerful demon or devil the main one to be worshipped.
The anti-divine abilities work on ANY divine spellcaster that doesn't worship your patron, not just Good ones, IIRC.

What's wrong with being NE?

paddyfool

2017-11-05, 05:18 AM

I'm trying to make a sneaky covert like character who will trying to get his sinister deity to becoming the most worshipped in the area

How about just going for a Changeling Warlock? Lots of sneaky and sinister material there, with no L.A. headache.

EDIT: Ah, I see you don't like how easily the Changeling gets seen through. Hopefully with a fair DM who lets you have fun with your abilities that shouldn't matter too much.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-05, 06:59 AM

Because according to ExLibrisMortis, if the Unholy Scion was adjusted to being +3 LA then a doppelganger would be 7, I'm assuming he's not using the reassigned LA [...]
No, I was. It wouldn't make much sense to reassign Unholy Scion and leave doppelgangers by the side of the road. A doppelganger with 4 RHD and +0 LA would result in ECL 7 when combined with an LA +3 Unholy Scion template.

If you are interested in a major devil/demon bloodline, and you get permission to use it, go for it. Bloodlines are badly written and nobody knows for sure how they're supposed to work, but they are broken powerful under most interpretations.

Fiend of Blasphemy is quite easily entered as unholy scion doppelganger. You need to grab Knowledge (Religion) as class skill, and bump your Will save a bit (RHD already get you +4, need +3 more, so a one-level dip will do it). Unholy Scion grants the required SLA, enervation.

I think Ur-Priest could be good, too. The last sentence before the class' mechanical description is as follows: "Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating (or reelevating) someone or something to godhood". In other words, an Ur-Priest of Orcus would be totally justified. Other demon princes too, probably, especially the big ones (Demogorgon, Graz'zt), though it could be fun to go for an outsider (the return of Obox-Ob, or the ultimate gambit by Dagon). Maybe Mephistopheles as well.

Trouble with Ur-Priest is that it doesn't work well with Fiend of Blasphemy. If you can convince your DM to grant full (or even 5/6) casting advancement to FoB, instead of its native casting, I'd definitely go with Ur-Priest. The accelerated casting will help you mitigate the burden of 4 RHD and 3 LA.

So I'm thinking something like UHS doppelganger 4+3/ex-cleric 1/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6, giving you 7th- or 8th-level Ur-Priest casting (7th- or 8th-level spells) at ECL 16, which is still behind a full cleric (especially in CL and spells/day), and has a lot of interesting class/racial features to make up for it.

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 12:10 PM

No, I was. It wouldn't make much sense to reassign Unholy Scion and leave doppelgangers by the side of the road. A doppelganger with 4 RHD and +0 LA would result in ECL 7 when combined with an LA +3 Unholy Scion template.

If you are interested in a major devil/demon bloodline, and you get permission to use it, go for it. Bloodlines are badly written and nobody knows for sure how they're supposed to work, but they are broken powerful under most interpretations.

Fiend of Blasphemy is quite easily entered as unholy scion doppelganger. You need to grab Knowledge (Religion) as class skill, and bump your Will save a bit (RHD already get you +4, need +3 more, so a one-level dip will do it). Unholy Scion grants the required SLA, enervation.

I think Ur-Priest could be good, too. The last sentence before the class' mechanical description is as follows: "Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating (or reelevating) someone or something to godhood". In other words, an Ur-Priest of Orcus would be totally justified. Other demon princes too, probably, especially the big ones (Demogorgon, Graz'zt), though it could be fun to go for an outsider (the return of Obox-Ob, or the ultimate gambit by Dagon). Maybe Mephistopheles as well.

Trouble with Ur-Priest is that it doesn't work well with Fiend of Blasphemy. If you can convince your DM to grant full (or even 5/6) casting advancement to FoB, instead of its native casting, I'd definitely go with Ur-Priest. The accelerated casting will help you mitigate the burden of 4 RHD and 3 LA.

So I'm thinking something like UHS doppelganger 4+3/ex-cleric 1/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6, giving you 7th- or 8th-level Ur-Priest casting (7th- or 8th-level spells) at ECL 16, which is still behind a full cleric (especially in CL and spells/day), and has a lot of interesting class/racial features to make up for it.

Thank you for clarifying the part with the ECL calculation.

As far as far I know, using the bloodlines won't be an issue so we can easily use those for the build, and I certainly would be interested in the use of major bloodline IF that will make help in some way or make even more potent.

I like the idea of using the Ur-Priest, which had been considering to use, however wouldn't it lose spell casting progression for the first level of cleric because of Ex-cleric and Ur-Priest stating this:

Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.
So I'm thinking, would there be a class that would better to use for entering the Ur-priest as it doesn't require Divine spellcasting ability, in fact I was considering to user Binder for several reasons, one being because I'm considering taking the dark speech feat, so I would be able to bind naberious to offset the ability score damage, secondly it has knowledge (religion) as a class skill, which is required for FoB. Speaking of feats, I've also been considering to go for able learner and chameleon because they're basically made for the ganger, but what feats would you suggest for the build?

I think it would be important to mention that we're allowed to use LA-Buyoff.

So the build would look something like this:

UHS doppelganger 4+3/Binder 1/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6 - which according to my calculations would leave at least 4 levels to play with, and with the buyoff there would be even more levels to play with. If I'm not mistaken, with a +3 LA there would be a buyoff point at level 9, 15 and 18, which would give 3 more levels, so in total 7 levels. So all in all, the only thing that is truly lost in respects to class levels would be the racial hd's. I guess the levels gained through the buyoffs could be used in relation the major bloodline level.

About granting the FoB full casting, I don't know, buts its certainly worth a shot - What could I use to sway him, in more technical terms perhaps?

Its also worth considering other templates as well in addition to UHS, especially if they're LA+0, and certainly if they fit the theme and flavour.

I'm certainly all for it being an outsider, whether that be a demon/devil or other - but here is a twist, the character could secretly be building what would later become his own powerbase aKa the followers gathered.

This certainly will be an interesting character to play and I'm already looking forward to playing it ;)

Edit: I wonder if its possible, justifiable and IF it would be better if the Ur-Priest's spell progression and the FoB's could considered to build on each other - most likely not, but maybe I'm lacking some insights.

Nifft

2017-11-05, 12:50 PM

Just to be sure here, I'm not after an optimized build but I do certainly want to make it as efficient as possible.

One of the reasons I also went with the doppelganger as base is that its true identity can't be revealed so easily, and with undetectable alignment from fiend of blasphemy, it becomes a lot harder to actually detect. I was consider levels in binder, also have been considering the dark speech feat, which would go well with binder when binding Naberius. The giving a ganger more social skills just improves its ability to further its goal.

Although it doesn't necessarily have to be the doppelganger, other humanoids, monstrous humanoids and fiends could also work, as long as it can do what I'm trying to achieve with it.

Undetectable Alignment (Su): A fiend of blasphemy's alignment is constantly concealed from all forms of divination, as the undetectable alignment spell. You know what's better than one spell? Lots of spells.

Undetectable Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm) is a level 1 Bard spell, level 2 Cleric.
In addition to the obvious classes, you can get that spell from:
- Ur-Priest 2
- Chameleon 1

Or you can get a better version of that same effect via spells like Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) (Sorc/Wiz 2), or the Master of Masks alignment-fooling feature.

If your patron is already a god, then you might do well with Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Trickery, _____). For race, pick Changeling from MM3.

If your patron is literally Orcus, then you might want to look at Binder 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Tenebrous Apostate 5 (and if your game runs longer than level 12, consider Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster to extend the dual-advancement, and more Binder when you run out of Ur-Priest casting). Any race works for this build.

If your patron is not a god and not Orcus, then you might do well as a Chameleon (Races of Destiny) or an Egoist (Expanded Psionics Handbook with the WE), or an Ur-Priest without Tenebrous Apostate -- Ur-Priest is great.

- Chameleon is a Prestige Class, and you can take a level of Binder in the 5 levels before Chameleon, plus a few Rogue levels for skills, plus anything else you'd like. You race needs to be Human or Changeling.

- Egoist is a Psion subclass, and it's the one that has the best access to healing powers, so you can fake being a Cleric if you want. Any race works, but Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) might be a good fit for a subversive alien.

In a nutshell:
GET SPELLCASTING.
Use spells for spell effects like Undetectable Alignment.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-05, 06:08 PM

I like the idea of using the Ur-Priest, which had been considering to use, however wouldn't it lose spell casting progression for the first level of cleric because of Ex-cleric and Ur-Priest stating this:
Cleric is good even without casting, because you get two good saves, heavy armour, and two domains, each of which can grant a bonus feat or an even better ability. However, it is by no means required for the build to work.

Binder can be extremely fitting in this build, because you can bind Tenebrous. Orcus once ascended to divinity under that name, so an Ur-Priest of Orcus would leap at the chance to bind it, plus you could use Tenebrous Apostate to advance binding and casting, and the extra turn/rebuke attempts granted by the vestige let you use DMM more effectively. Downside is that you need to be able to bind 4th-level vestiges to qualify for TA at all, which requires five binder levels (and a feat). Your build would be something like UHS doppelganger 4+3/binder 1/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6/anima mage 4 (divine adaptation)/tenebrous apostate 5 (25 levels, or 22 levels if you buy off the LA). N.B. still using the FoB adaptation that has them as 5/6 casting advancement, replacing its original casting.

Now, bloodlines play into this in a very particular fashion, due to the following clause: "Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels [...] If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities".

So, how do you calculate your effective binder level? Well, in the above build, it's your binder class level plus your Anima Mage class level plus your Tenebrous Apostate level. And each of these is increased by 3 for your major bloodline. So we can adjust the build to be UHS doppelganger 4+3/binder 1 (EBL 4)/ur-priest 2 (CL 4-5)/fiend of blasphemy 6 (CL 9-13)/anima mage 1 (EBL 8)/tenebrous apostate 5 (EBL 12-16, CL 17-20). Your bloodline levels also increase your Ur-Priest caster level & turn/rebuke level, your Fiend of Blasphemy ability to sponsor clerics, and your maximum skill ranks. With bloodlines, you don't even need to finagle the Anima Mage divine adaptation; you can simply go binder 2, add +3 bloodline and Improved Binding, and qualify for TA outright. Reduces your overall binding/casting a bit, but the simplicity is pleasant.

So yeah, bloodlines are ultracheesy, ultrapowerful, and they work really well with this build.

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 08:09 PM

Cleric is good even without casting, because you get two good saves, heavy armour, and two domains, each of which can grant a bonus feat or an even better ability. However, it is by no means required for the build to work.

Binder can be extremely fitting in this build, because you can bind Tenebrous. Orcus once ascended to divinity under that name, so an Ur-Priest of Orcus would leap at the chance to bind it, plus you could use Tenebrous Apostate to advance binding and casting, and the extra turn/rebuke attempts granted by the vestige let you use DMM more effectively. Downside is that you need to be able to bind 4th-level vestiges to qualify for TA at all, which requires five binder levels (and a feat). Your build would be something like UHS doppelganger 4+3/binder 1/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6/anima mage 4 (divine adaptation)/tenebrous apostate 5 (25 levels, or 22 levels if you buy off the LA). N.B. still using the FoB adaptation that has them as 5/6 casting advancement, replacing its original casting.

Now, bloodlines play into this in a very particular fashion, due to the following clause: "Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels [...] If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities".

So, how do you calculate your effective binder level? Well, in the above build, it's your binder class level plus your Anima Mage class level plus your Tenebrous Apostate level. And each of these is increased by 3 for your major bloodline. So we can adjust the build to be UHS doppelganger 4+3/binder 1 (EBL 4)/ur-priest 2 (CL 4-5)/fiend of blasphemy 6 (CL 9-13)/anima mage 1 (EBL 8)/tenebrous apostate 5 (EBL 12-16, CL 17-20). Your bloodline levels also increase your Ur-Priest caster level & turn/rebuke level, your Fiend of Blasphemy ability to sponsor clerics, and your maximum skill ranks. With bloodlines, you don't even need to finagle the Anima Mage divine adaptation; you can simply go binder 2, add +3 bloodline and Improved Binding, and qualify for TA outright. Reduces your overall binding/casting a bit, but the simplicity is pleasant.

So yeah, bloodlines are ultracheesy, ultrapowerful, and they work really well with this build.

This sounds like its going to be an awesome character to play, especially once it peaks - and you haven't even mentioned any of the abilities it would get from the DG, UHS and the bloodline, which is going to make it a whole lot of more awesome ;) I'm wondering if it would be possible to increase the amount of SLA's it gets from UHS and classes? Potentially through feats?

So what you're saying is, that if I went with the simple model, I would actually have 3 more levels to play with? Any dips worth taking? Or adding more to Ur-Priest? Death Master could actually be something worth considering as its also a servant of Orcus, if going for DM, then perhaps adding Mother Cyst feat? Thrall of Orcus, I don't think would be that viable in this build, other classes that deal with Orcus that haven't been mentioned that could be worth adding?

Something that could be really interesting, if it had a major Bloodline: Devil but was a Ur-Priest of Orcus, because of reasons.
Other bloodlines that would make more sense to take?

Nifft

2017-11-05, 08:21 PM

Incarnate

2017-11-05, 09:35 PM

Just be sure to run that stuff by your DM.

Many of the adaptations listed above are not actual rules -- they're suggestions for a DM who wants to homebrew.

Also note that the Bloodlines variant is both optional and very poorly written. Taken at minimum RAW, they aren't able to double-dip casting advancement, which is required by the above build. It's only with creative interpretation that you get the super-power version which crops up in Theoretical Optimization (TO) builds.

Some already have and the rest I will.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
I read that when a character has two or more classes in addition to bloodline levels then each class would get +3 to abilities, when calculating its effectiveness, dc's and such. Spellcasting is an ability, is it not? And you're using a key ability modifier to determine various things, like dc's, bonus spells, etc. Since it applies to all classes the character has levels in, it would affect all caster levels as well. Or is it supposed to be interpreted more in line with the feat: Practiced Spellcaster, so it affects dc, damage dies, etc. - In other words your spells become more powerful, not the character that becomes better at casting. The latter is how I understand it, and its supported by the quote below.
I think they're NOT supposed to be like how Effective Caster Level work, meaning they DON'T add actual class levels, and really should be interpreted more like how Practiced Spellcaster works, with the exception that it works on class abilities and not just caster level.

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

I think whatever interpretations there are should end when reading this "only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected". Also, it only affects EXISTING class abilities and NOT class features, which is an important distinction. Because this basically means that it ONLY affects the abilities of the class, so it won't make PrC's increase the EFFECTIVE caster or binding levels.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-06, 06:43 AM

This sounds like its going to be an awesome character to play, especially once it peaks - and you haven't even mentioned any of the abilities it would get from the DG, UHS and the bloodline, which is going to make it a whole lot of more awesome ;) I'm wondering if it would be possible to increase the amount of SLA's it gets from UHS and classes? Potentially through feats?

So what you're saying is, that if I went with the simple model, I would actually have 3 more levels to play with? Any dips worth taking? Or adding more to Ur-Priest? Death Master could actually be something worth considering as its also a servant of Orcus, if going for DM, then perhaps adding Mother Cyst feat? Thrall of Orcus, I don't think would be that viable in this build, other classes that deal with Orcus that haven't been mentioned that could be worth adding?

Something that could be really interesting, if it had a major Bloodline: Devil but was a Ur-Priest of Orcus, because of reasons.
Other bloodlines that would make more sense to take?
Magic in the Blood grants two extra uses of your 1/day racial SLAs. It's a regional Faerûn feat, first level only, available to certain dwarves, elves, gnomes, and planetouched.

In the simple build (this one: UHS doppelganger 4+3/binder 2/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6/tenebrous apostate 5) you are already ECL 22, or ECL 19 with full buyoff. I don't know what you consider 'having 3 more levels to play with', but I usually stop at ECL 20 :smalltongue:. That said, something like Hierophant is nice with Ur-Priest, and there's always warlock 1 for beguiling influence (big bonus to social skills), or maybe a two-level swordsage dip with Craven to get yourself some sneak attack and stealthy maneuvers, if you wanted to take an active hand in combat irreverent cultist clean-up sometimes (do make sure to take the Cowardly flaw, or get rid of your immunity to mind-affecting (from UHS) some other way, or you may no longer qualify for Craven).

The devil and demon bloodlines are both about equally useful/useless, granting two weak feats, +2 to some useful skills, and assorted +1s, but there is one key ability: Demon/Devil Affinity. Basically, it's a +2/+4/+6 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform when applied to demons or devils. If you want to be a corruptor who tricks devils into worshiping Orcus, you could go for the devil bloodline (but then devils don't really worship, so that might be impossible). If you want a strong political base in the Abyss, the demon bloodline is more useful.

Incarnate

2017-11-06, 02:42 PM

Magic in the Blood grants two extra uses of your 1/day racial SLAs. It's a regional Faerûn feat, first level only, available to certain dwarves, elves, gnomes, and planetouched.

In the simple build (this one: UHS doppelganger 4+3/binder 2/ur-priest 2/fiend of blasphemy 6/tenebrous apostate 5) you are already ECL 22, or ECL 19 with full buyoff. I don't know what you consider 'having 3 more levels to play with', but I usually stop at ECL 20 :smalltongue:. That said, something like Hierophant is nice with Ur-Priest, and there's always warlock 1 for beguiling influence (big bonus to social skills), or maybe a two-level swordsage dip with Craven to get yourself some sneak attack and stealthy maneuvers, if you wanted to take an active hand in combat irreverent cultist clean-up sometimes (do make sure to take the Cowardly flaw, or get rid of your immunity to mind-affecting (from UHS) some other way, or you may no longer qualify for Craven).

The devil and demon bloodlines are both about equally useful/useless, granting two weak feats, +2 to some useful skills, and assorted +1s, but there is one key ability: Demon/Devil Affinity. Basically, it's a +2/+4/+6 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform when applied to demons or devils. If you want to be a corruptor who tricks devils into worshiping Orcus, you could go for the devil bloodline (but then devils don't really worship, so that might be impossible). If you want a strong political base in the Abyss, the demon bloodline is more useful.

One thing I've been trying to figure out, is if 3 levels in a major bloodline is at all possible since it requires the 1st level before level 3, 2nd level before 6'th and the 3rd before 12'th level, and since racial hd's also are being used when determining character level it would not seem so, the only one I could see being possible would be the one before level 12. However, it might be possible for it to be the 3rd, 6'th and 12'th character level put after the racial hd's+la. So UHS Doppelganger would would 7 ECL, so it would be before the 10'th level, then before 13'th and then before 19'th, or at different levels due to la buyoff, but still following that pattern. Or how would that work?

So, that Magic in the Blood is pretty much out of the question. The 3 extra levels was in the sense that if I went with the simple model, binder 2 + Improved Binding feat, then I wouldn't have to go for Anima mage to qualify for TA. However, I think there is a problem with the build as the bloodlines levels doesn't increase the EFFECTIVE Caster or Binder levels, I don't know why its been interpreted as they will also increase the binding/caster levels, however what it does is it increases the effectiveness of abilities, improving dc's, damage dices, durations, etc. This is similar to how practiced spellcaster works which does the same thing but only in regards to casting - it increases the efficiency of the spellcaster's spells, but only that. So even with bloodline levels affecting numerically less than practiced spellcaster the bloodline levels are still way more effective because it also increases the class abilities across the board, including spellcasting and binding ability, at that expense of 1-3 character levels.

I wonder if its possible through magical means or otherwise to give others the UHS because the character has it, for instance through reproductive means or like as a curse?

The Demon bloodline would make the most sense thematically if its Orcus, but there might be other bloodlines which would be an even stronger and a better fit? Also, its still a possibility that it could be working to further someone else's cause, or that it may change during gameplay, what would actually happen if a TA wanted to shift its devotion, I mean one could still revere him as a god but without being devoted to him? If no, then I'm not sure about TA, especially because I might at some point just force the blood oathed cultist to worship my character, which he would totally do if he got divine rank at some point.

I'm also considering potential heritage feats, also to note we're allowed to pick two flaws in exchange for two feats at start, which opens up some possibilities.

I don't know if there would be a benefit in making it an undead at some point, like adding the necropolitan template to increase its longevity.

Nifft

2017-11-07, 04:49 AM

It really seems like Doppelganger is hurting you more than it helps.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-07, 06:27 AM

[bloodlines trouble] Or how would that work?
Ah, yes, the joy of bloodlines!

You take bloodline levels at any point before the stated level, or you take an XP penalty. So you have two choices: take the three bloodline levels at ECL 7, and eat the penalty for a while, or treat your templated doppelganger as a monster class, allowing you to intersperse bloodline levels in between (common practice is to take them all at level 1).

However, I think there is a problem with the build as the bloodlines levels doesn't increase the EFFECTIVE Caster or Binder levels
Bloodlines increase caster level and anything based on class level. The binder class tells you: "Your effective binder level, or EBL (your binder class level plus any soul binding bonuses you receive from prestige classes or other sources), determines the maximum level of vestige you can summon, as well as all other functions related to binding vestiges. This value equates to your binder class level [...]". In other words: you may add your bloodline levels to your binder class level to determine the level of vestige you can summon, and 'all other functions related to binding vestiges'.

I wonder if its possible through magical means or otherwise to give others the UHS because the character has it, for instance through reproductive means or like as a curse?
Short of wish, I'm not sure there is a way to apply UHS to already-born creatures. You can theoretically beget UHS children if you are within an area of high taint, but that is quite a lot more squick than most tables would be willing to put up with.

The Demon bloodline would make the most sense thematically if its Orcus, but there might be other bloodlines which would be an even stronger and a better fit? Also, its still a possibility that it could be working to further someone else's cause, or that it may change during gameplay, what would actually happen if a TA wanted to shift its devotion, I mean one could still revere him as a god but without being devoted to him? If no, then I'm not sure about TA, especially because I might at some point just force the blood oathed cultist to worship my character, which he would totally do if he got divine rank at some point.
I don't think the other bloodlines are much better. Efreeti gives you Improved Initiative, which is better than demon/devil, but still not great. Likewise, the big non-good ones (red dragon, titan) aren't super synergistic with this build. It's more important that you have one at all, because the bloodline level cheese works really well with binding (because it uses class level so heavily).

If you want to eventually ascend to godhood, Tenebrous is actually quite fitting. Orcus ascended to divinity as Tenebrous, but sought to rule under his own name. He failed to achieve that (ask Afroakuma if you want to know details, I don't know), and is now 'only' the demon prince of undead. Tenebrous is 'free' to be used to ascend to godhood again...ish. It's not straightforward, obviously, but you could try to ascend to divinity as Tenebrous, which means you would be fine with TA.

I'm also considering potential heritage feats, also to note we're allowed to pick two flaws in exchange for two feats at start, which opens up some possibilities.

I don't know if there would be a benefit in making it an undead at some point, like adding the necropolitan template to increase its longevity.
Heritage feats I'm not sure, you'd have to check an index or guide for that. Necropolitan can't be applied to outsiders normally, and I don't think it's super beneficial, as you'll have fairly good hit dice already (all d8), and the immunities can be gotten from buffs (veil of undeath, at high levels). However, Orcus always likes undead, so it might be quite fitting.

Matrota

2017-11-07, 12:19 PM

Nifft

2017-11-07, 12:22 PM

Incarnate

2017-11-07, 01:21 PM

Ah, yes, the joy of bloodlines!

You take bloodline levels at any point before the stated level, or you take an XP penalty. So you have two choices: take the three bloodline levels at ECL 7, and eat the penalty for a while, or treat your templated doppelganger as a monster class, allowing you to intersperse bloodline levels in between (common practice is to take them all at level 1).

That makes good sense, I wouldn't mind that, so guess I will go the common route then ;)

Bloodlines increase caster level and anything based on class level. The binder class tells you: "Your effective binder level, or EBL (your binder class level plus any soul binding bonuses you receive from prestige classes or other sources), determines the maximum level of vestige you can summon, as well as all other functions related to binding vestiges. This value equates to your binder class level [...]". In other words: you may add your bloodline levels to your binder class level to determine the level of vestige you can summon, and 'all other functions related to binding vestiges'.

Where do you get that you may add bloodline levels as class levels? Because its specifically stated in Unearthed Arcana how it works.

How do you interpret this below?

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

My interpretation:
Its my understanding that they don't increase caster/binder levels, not even for determining what can be cast or bound, but they only affect the level-based calculations. So for instance a binder / cleric with 3 levels in a major bloodline wouldn't get a binder level increase nor caster level for the purposes of determining what level of spells can be cast or what level of vestiges can be bound?

I'm confident that my interpretation of this is correct, but what do you think?

Short of wish, I'm not sure there is a way to apply UHS to already-born creatures. You can theoretically beget UHS children if you are within an area of high taint, but that is quite a lot more squick than most tables would be willing to put up with.

Hmm.. I was thinking maybe a potion, a spell, a ritual or somehow manipulating taint in someway.

I don't think the other bloodlines are much better. Efreeti gives you Improved Initiative, which is better than demon/devil, but still not great. Likewise, the big non-good ones (red dragon, titan) aren't super synergistic with this build. It's more important that you have one at all, because the bloodline level cheese works really well with binding (because it uses class level so heavily).

I agree, I think it would then be either demon or devil then.

If you want to eventually ascend to godhood, Tenebrous is actually quite fitting. Orcus ascended to divinity as Tenebrous, but sought to rule under his own name. He failed to achieve that (ask Afroakuma if you want to know details, I don't know), and is now 'only' the demon prince of undead. Tenebrous is 'free' to be used to ascend to godhood again...ish. It's not straightforward, obviously, but you could try to ascend to divinity as Tenebrous, which means you would be fine with TA.

That makes sense, and you're right attaining just divine rank of 0 isn't exactly straightforward, but there should be some ways to do it that are more simple and straightforward than others, not saying it will be easy, because it most certainly won't.

Heritage feats I'm not sure, you'd have to check an index or guide for that. Necropolitan can't be applied to outsiders normally, and I don't think it's super beneficial, as you'll have fairly good hit dice already (all d8), and the immunities can be gotten from buffs (veil of undeath, at high levels). However, Orcus always likes undead, so it might be quite fitting.

I already have, and there a bunch of nice heritage feats which will complement the build and overall flavour of the character, though not sure if they're worth taking over other feats that could be more important or almost essential to the build. The reason I asked was more because I'm unsure of how old doppelgangers can actually become, even with the (outsider, native) and evil subtype am I unsure.

I'm also considering a slightly different approach to free up some levels, which pretty much is going for a different race that is either humanoid or monstrous humanoid, where the total ECL from the race will be less than 4, which has good will saves and the very least doesn't have racial penalties to wisdom, intelligence and charisma. To make up for the loss of Change shape ability and loss in racial bonus to bluff, levels in warlock could be taken which could offer the least invocations "Shrouding Transformation" & "Beguiling Influence", and the character would gain more functionality in other aspects. Its still with the Unholy Scion template.

Incarnate

2017-11-07, 01:57 PM

I recall that there were rules somewhere, likely in a place explaining the creation of templates or monsters, for reducing features of a race/template to have a lower LA. My DM did this with a friend who wanted to play some shapeshifting slime thing but the LA was too high.

I'm not sure where to find those, however I'm using the doppelganger with a reassigned LA as per inevitability's thread about it, its reassigned to an LA of +0.
However I'm using the unholy scion template with a reduced LA of +3, and because the GM is also allowing the LA buyoff rule then I'm using that to decrease the LA with 3.

As Nifft points out, Racial HD ("RHD") are usually also a problem for monsters, and those can't be reduced - not unless GM does so, which also should lead to a reduction in other aspects as well as RHD is the equivalent of class levels for monsters.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-07, 06:07 PM

How do you interpret this below?

My interpretation:
Its my understanding that they don't increase caster/binder levels, not even for determining what can be cast or bound, but they only affect the level-based calculations. So for instance a binder / cleric with 3 levels in a major bloodline wouldn't get a binder level increase nor caster level for the purposes of determining what level of spells can be cast or what level of vestiges can be bound?

I'm confident that my interpretation of this is correct, but what do you think?
The bolded part is a contradiction. Determining what can be bound is level-dependant.

To answer the question: "What vestiges can I bind with my Soul Binding ability?", you have to calculate your EBL, because the maximum level of vestige you can bind explicitly depends on EBL, which explicitly equals your class level plus bonuses from prestige classes, feats, and miscellaneous sources. Since it's (a) a character ability, (b) a calculation and (c) based on class level, you add your bloodline level to the total.

Bloodline levels do also increase caster level, that's given in the rules you quoted, but they don't increase spellcasting level (a subtle difference, but important--higher CL does not grant spells).

Incarnate

2017-11-07, 07:12 PM

The bolded part is a contradiction. Determining what can be bound is level-dependant.

To answer the question: "What vestiges can I bind with my Soul Binding ability?", you have to calculate your EBL, because the maximum level of vestige you can bind explicitly depends on EBL, which explicitly equals your class level plus bonuses from prestige classes, feats, and miscellaneous sources. Since it's (a) a character ability, (b) a calculation and (c) based on class level, you add your bloodline level to the total.

Bloodline levels do also increase caster level, that's given in the rules you quoted, but they don't increase spellcasting level (a subtle difference, but important--higher CL does not grant spells).

I'm sorry if I contradicted myself somehow, however I still don't get how you're able to interpret it as such, when it specifically states:
"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features.
Both Spellcasting & Soulbinding are class features - They're specified specifically as class features and NOT class abilities, so because of this spellcasting and soulbinding levels don't increase - to me that makes it a clear cut case.

To further cement it:" The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected." - In relation to the first bit, that the character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known or spells per, which is the same for soulbinding, the character doesn't gain any abilities, becoming able to bind higher level vestiges is an equivalent to gaining abilities / spells known, so what you're saying would be an incorrect interpretation.

The way it supposed to be interpreted is similar with how practiced spellcaster works, that it basically increases caster level for the purposes of determining specifically the output of the spells cast from the class. To give an example: Wizard5/Fighter4 with practiced spellcaster who casts a fireball. Normally a fireball deals xd6 where x is the class caster level, so normally the fireball cast from this character WITHOUT PS would be 5d6 dmg, but due to practiced spellcaster the damage would be 5+4d6 = 9d6 dmg. Since the only level-based aspect in this spell is damage, then it doesn't affect it further. But for the sake understanding, say the effect and duration was also affect by caster level, then it would use this calculation (0+5+4) instead of this calculation (0+5), to clarify: The 0 is to resemble that an automatic calculation is taking place normally when determining the spell output, we just don't realize it. This is similar to how bloodline levels affect, because bloodline levels also affect class abilities. So say had this been an ability that was gained as a class ability then bloodline levels would affect as well, where practiced spellcaster would not.
If one were to apply your interpretation, practiced spellcaster would also affect in such a way that this character should intended as level 9 wizard with progression or the very least the ability to cast spells as level 9'th wizard, so in theory even if this character had not gained any new spells he would still be able to cast level 5 spells, which is very far from how it actually works. Also to note, I know my interpretation is correct as I've taken it up with others who agree with me, and one even states that the rules are clear cut, so there is really no question how this should be interpretated - so creative interpretation is also out the window so to speak.

With that being said, IF you can convince me that the current rules somehow supports your interpretation of how the bloodline levels work, then please reference them.
The parts I quoted in the earlier posts and here is taken straight from Unearthed Arcana, I just want it to go by the rules and not using creative interpretation when the RAW is very specific and cannot be understood any other way, UNLESS one begins to get creative with the interpretation.

Nifft

2017-11-07, 08:52 PM

So, for a caster the Bloodline gives you a caster level increase (like you'd go from a 6d6 fireball -> 7d6 fireball), but it would not give you new spells known, nor more spells per day.

The equivalent for a Binder would be granting an increase in effective binder level for the purpose of using Vestige powers (like Amon's breath weapon would go from 6d6 fire -> 7d6 fire), but you would not gain access to any new Vestiges, nor would you get more Vestiges per day.

Incarnate

2017-11-07, 09:10 PM

Nifft

2017-11-07, 09:43 PM

Exactly, you got it right. Same goes for any duration an dc's increases in terms of saves and such.

That's very sensible.

However -- it's not very strong.

My recommendation would be to ignore Bloodlines and just take as many class levels as possible.

As a Changeling Psion (Telepath), you could read thoughts (which is like detect thoughts except faster & better) at level 3. It's very sneaky and very social. You could even use attraction & aversion to make specific people publicly avoid the religion you want to destroy & publicly visit your place of worship instead.

As a Human Psion (Egoist + both Web Enhancement variants), you could change shape to disguise yourself at-will, you'd have access to healing powers which allow you to fake being a Cleric starting around level 5, and you could also pick up read thoughts at level 6.

You could put Unholy Scion on top of either of these characters -- they're both Humanoids.

Here's another option: Sorcerer into Fiend-Blooded. This gets you many of the effects of becoming a Half-Fiend, but you only lose 1 level of spellcasting.

You could go like: Sorcerer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Mindbender 1 / Fatespinner 4

Mix in Mindbender any time you have a spare feat slot for Mindsight.

Last sneaky idea: Silverbrow Human Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Chameleon 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / ___ ? (with Hellfire Warlock mixed in anywhere, and some room for Unholy Scion LA or something else better at the end) - you use Binder to get Naberius every day, and that allows you to have a respectable at-will via Hellfire Blast, plus you can cast corrupt or sanctified spells with your Chameleon slots. Warlock 4 gets you Deceive Item, which is nice for reliably pretending to be a Cleric. Plus you have actual (fake) Cleric spells starting at level 6.

Incarnate

2017-11-07, 11:39 PM

That's very sensible.

However -- it's not very strong.

My recommendation would be to ignore Bloodlines and just take as many class levels as possible.

As a Changeling Psion (Telepath), you could read thoughts (which is like detect thoughts except faster & better) at level 3. It's very sneaky and very social. You could even use attraction & aversion to make specific people publicly avoid the religion you want to destroy & publicly visit your place of worship instead.

As a Human Psion (Egoist + both Web Enhancement variants), you could change shape to disguise yourself at-will, you'd have access to healing powers which allow you to fake being a Cleric starting around level 5, and you could also pick up read thoughts at level 6.

You could put Unholy Scion on top of either of these characters -- they're both Humanoids.

Here's another option: Sorcerer into Fiend-Blooded. This gets you many of the effects of becoming a Half-Fiend, but you only lose 1 level of spellcasting.

You could go like: Sorcerer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Mindbender 1 / Fatespinner 4

Mix in Mindbender any time you have a spare feat slot for Mindsight.

Last sneaky idea: Silverbrow Human Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Chameleon 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / ___ ? (with Hellfire Warlock mixed in anywhere, and some room for Unholy Scion LA or something else better at the end) - you use Binder to get Naberius every day, and that allows you to have a respectable at-will via Hellfire Blast, plus you can cast corrupt or sanctified spells with your Chameleon slots. Warlock 4 gets you Deceive Item, which is nice for reliably pretending to be a Cleric. Plus you have actual (fake) Cleric spells starting at level 6.

I noticed there might an issue with your silverbrow warlock build, as Hellfire Warlock requires either Brimstone Blast or Hellrime blast which are both lesser and requires that you have at least six levels of warlock to aquire through normal progression, unless you're aquireing the somehow earlier.

I'm not dismissing changeling or any of your other suggestion, however I do recall there has been some controversy regarding if they're actually exists in Forgotten Realms, even when they are in the dragon magazines.
A lot of debate on that topic, I won't dismiss various psionic builds, the doppelganger is a good base for what I'm attempting, but since some of what that offers can be substituted through other means its worth at least considering those options, even though its not as powerful, for instance warlocks can get the equivalent of alter self at level 1. I'm still sticking to the UHS template, which also means it should be considered to have a build for the mother as she is influenced from the moment the fetus became corrupted, and she would have every reason to still try to be about her son, and this would certainly be exploited to the fullest.

Just to be clear here, don't know if you know this, but I actually don't lose any levels on doing the bloodlines levels, all I lose from doing them is being set back an amount experience points that is equal to the total experience points when levels are taking instead of the of the class level. Here is why: That is because bloodline levels aren't added to the character level, thus you only have to earn the same amount from the level to the new level where you took the bloodline level instead. So for instance if I took the bloodline level when I was supposed to become level 9, I'd still be level and thus I'd have to earn the xp again from 8-9, which I technically could do a total of 3 times. Hence why the only reason why not to take them would because you get slowed in the level progression, but thats about it. Also keep in mind that because of LA buyoff, I could potentially go for a LA+0 (from the reassigned thread) race with only one RHD as that one would get replaced with a class HD. But a few wouldn't hurt if it meant they came with good will saves and other useful goodies.

So for instance if I took say Bloodline (Major):Devil - with 3 bloodline levels at level 20 the character would gain the following:
+2 on Bluff|Diplomacy|Search|Listen Checks
+2 save vs. poison
Damage reduction: 5/good
Resistance(Ex): Fire|Acid|Cold:5
+1 Natural Armor
Ability Adjustments: +1 Cha|Con|Int
Feats: Dodge|Alertness|
Darkness 1/day(sp)
Smite Good 1/day(su)
Devil affinity +6 (gain bonus on bluff, diplomacy gather information, intimidate and perform checks when interacticting with devils)

*While the character also would gain the discussed bonuses when calculating level-based abilities and such.

So tell me, why should one pass this up when one has the option to take it all and only be set back some mere experience points, and mind you, all of the bloodlines levels has to be taken before certain levels, and if not before the levels where they have to be taken the character will get a 20% experience points penalty until bloodlines levels have been taken UNLESS one is multiclass character. So if one does take all the blood lines levels between the correct intervals its actually very limited how much it will set the character back experience points wise in terms of level progression.

One thing that could be important for the build, is that I noticed that Fiendblooded actually would work really well with the bloodline:demon or devil, it would synergize well with it, at least that what it seems a lot like. What I also noticed immediately is the entry reqs:
- Feats: Blood Calls To Blood, Eschew Materials.
- Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells without preparation

1st Note: Can be entered already at level 5 or level 4 IF with 1 level in a bloodline.

One way in could be warlock as warlocks can qualify for PrC's where its not caster level dependent but spell level-dependent.

As mentioned in one of the previous posts, that I'm considering other races as well as other class combinations, but I do have a couple feats that I really would like to get into the build, including the Fiend of Blasphemy PrC if possible. Dark Speech is one of them, leadership is the second which is actually required for the FoB PrC. Because of the Dark Speech feat it only makes sense to get at least one level of binder. Since I'm allowed to select two flaws in exchange for two feats, I don't see getting the feats I want/need in the build. Also to note here, I might be able to be allowed to use the Transfer SLA from FoB for Su's as well, and if so the warlock is suddenly much more viable in the build, same with hellfire warlock, which also makes binder that much more important. Another thing I think would be important to mention, I think would good to go for a PrC that increases more than one of these at the same, invoking ability if warlock, if binder then soul binding, spellcasting respectively. So Eldritch Theurge, Anima Mage, Mystic Theurge (if also divine casting was in the build), Eldritch Disiple(if divine instead of arcarne casting)

Also, if an arcane caster class i in the build I would actually consider the feat: Mother Cyst. I'd had also considered building Fiend of Possession on top of FoB, though I think there its something else to beef it up.

FoB Entry Requirements: X marks the entry as being met
-Race: Outsider with the evil subtype - X - can enter because of UHS Template
-Base Save Bonus: Will +7
-Skills: Bluff 10 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks
-Feats: Leadership - X - can enter because of feat being mandatory starting feat
-Special: Must have at least one spell-like ability that duplicates a spell effect of 4th level or higher. X - can enter because of UHS Template

1st Note: Requires at least skill maximum at minimum 10 - which is default character level 7, however due to bloodlines to bloodlines this could be met already at 5'th character level.
2nd Note: Requires base will +7 - so its worth considering options that increase this but not mandatory since unless early entry to FoB.
3rd Note: If going into FoB as the second class, then it needs Knowdledge(religion) & bluff as class skills early on.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-08, 02:06 PM

To further cement it:" The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected." - In relation to the first bit, that the character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known or spells per, which is the same for soulbinding, the character doesn't gain any abilities, becoming able to bind higher level vestiges is an equivalent to gaining abilities / spells known, so what you're saying would be an incorrect interpretation.
1) Argument from analogy is invalid in D&D RAW (and is frowned upon in general). There is no such thing as "the soul binding equivalent of new abilities, spells known, or spells per day", because spellcasting and binding are not the same thing and do not use the same rules. If it's not mentioned as something you do not get, and it's based on class level, you get it.

In the same way, the Practiced Spellcaster example is irrelevant. It is not referenced in Unearthed Arcana and has no bearing on the discussion. It uses a totally different set of rules.

2) You do not get new abilities/class features when your EBL increases. You already have the Soul Binding ability at level 1, and that's enough. The Soul Binding ability uses your class level to determine how many vestiges you can bind, and of what level those can be. That your class level plays this role does not mean it's not part of the same single class feature--in fact, it's part of the class feature.

What you don't automatically get when taking bloodline levels are the following new class features: Suppress Sign, Pact Augmentation (sample build uses 2 levels binder, so it does get these), Soul Guardian, and bonus feats.

Incarnate

2017-11-08, 06:13 PM

1) Argument from analogy is invalid in D&D RAW (and is frowned upon in general). There is no such thing as "the soul binding equivalent of new abilities, spells known, or spells per day", because spellcasting and binding are not the same thing and do not use the same rules. If it's not mentioned as something you do not get, and it's based on class level, you get it.

In the same way, the Practiced Spellcaster example is irrelevant. It is not referenced in Unearthed Arcana and has no bearing on the discussion. It uses a totally different set of rules.

2) You do not get new abilities/class features when your EBL increases. You already have the Soul Binding ability at level 1, and that's enough. The Soul Binding ability uses your class level to determine how many vestiges you can bind, and of what level those can be. That your class level plays this role does not mean it's not part of the same single class feature--in fact, it's part of the class feature.

What you don't automatically get when taking bloodline levels are the following new class features: Suppress Sign, Pact Augmentation (sample build uses 2 levels binder, so it does get these), Soul Guardian, and bonus feats.

There may not be a RAW equivalent, but it doesn't change the fact that soul binding is a class feature, and class features do not increase as a result of the bloodlines.
However I've been having to re-read some of the rules to see if I had missed something since you kept insisting on it increased the EBL because it was a class ability. Apparently Soulbinding is a class feature, but at the same time its also a supernatural ability, therefor a class ability, which I didn't take into account, this also means you're right when it comes to the calculation of the EBL, but this is only because of Soulbinding being worded as it is. I'm sorry for whatever it has caused.

However Improved Binding doesn't state in can be taken multiple times, like for instance other feats such as toughness does, so I'm forced to assume that it can't be, or the very least the effect won't stack.

Another thing I want to briefly touch upon because the rules aren't very specific about this.
For instance the Fiend-blooded PrC has a requirement that specifically states: Race: Any humanoid race (cannot already be a half-fiend).
I also notice that the PrC doesn't make you a half-fiend and make no mention of it makes you unable to take the half-fiend template at a later point.
- The only real requirement is that you have have descended from a fiend (feat requirement) which you could've because rp reasons rather than mechanical reasons.
Bloodline: Demon or Devil definitely supports this from a game mechanical aspect but doesn't seem to be necessary.
Also when inspecting the half-fiend template, both the savage progression and the standard +4 LA template it seems to me that this template is a lot stronger than what 4 levels in the Fiend-blooded PrC will give, although one will miss out on the +4 to existing spellcasting going with half-fiend instead. I'm not sure exactly what sufficiently would make one qualify for the half-fiend templates, but again the bloodlines: demon or devil seems to support it. UHS is specifically stated as being something else than a fiend even when the parent was a fiend of any kind and the bloodlines: Demon and Devil doesn't make you a half-fiend either, so a UHS should be able to take either of the half-fiend templates or the fiend-blooded.

To me it seems that combining UHS with a bloodline in either demon or devil with either half-fiend or fiend-blooded would make a lot of sense to do, especially if contemplating getting into the FoB.
The half-fiend templates seems like a quite strong candidate for a character with UHS and either the bloodline demon or devil. I don't know if this is just me or there actually could be something potent here.

Also, some build combinations I've been fiddling with if going with a different race that is LA+0 and preferably has only 1 RHD, still humanoid, and with good will saves + some nice goodies.

All of the below builds are with 3 bloodline levels and full LA Buyoff and don't take race into consideration:
- If Tenebrous then - UHS Warlock 1/ Binder2/ Death Master 5 / Fiend-Blooded 2/ Anima Mage 4/ Tenebrous Apostate 5 = ECL 19
- If Hellfire Warlock then - UHS Warlock 3/Binder 1/ Death Master 5/ Fiend-Blooded 4/ Eldritch Theurge 3 / Hellfire Warlock 3 = ECL 19
- If FoB then - UHS Warlock 3 / Binder 1/ Death Master 4/ FoB 6/ Eldritch Theurge 3 / Hellfire Warlock 3 = ECL 19
- If FoB then - UHS Warlock 1 / Binder 2 / Death Master 3 / Ur-Priest 3 / Mystic Theurge 4 / FoB 6 = ECL 19
- If FoB then - UHS Warlock 1 / Binder 2 / Death Master 5 / FoB 6 / Half-Fiend 4 = ECL 18
-- I think this one would give a lot of SLA's and would buff the character considerably IF various passives stack

1st Note: I don't know why I for some reason keep hitting ECL 19

A variation of the previous one:
- If FoB then - UHS Warlock 3 / Binder 1 / Death Master 3 / Eldritch Theurge 3 / FoB 6 / Half-Fiend 4 = ECL 20

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-09, 11:47 AM

There may not be a RAW equivalent, but it doesn't change the fact that soul binding is a class feature, and class features do not increase as a result of the bloodlines.
Ah, I think you've hit the problem (communication error, source-non-specified) here. A class feature is increased by bloodlines, if (and only if) the class feature scales with class level (e.g. Uncanny Dodge scales with class level to determine what level rogue can bypass it). As you say below, "but this [scaling with bloodline] is only because of Soulbinding being worded as it is". That's exactly what it is.

However I've been having to re-read some of the rules to see if I had missed something since you kept insisting on it increased the EBL because it was a class ability. Apparently Soulbinding is a class feature, but at the same time its also a supernatural ability, therefor a class ability, which I didn't take into account, this also means you're right when it comes to the calculation of the EBL, but this is only because of Soulbinding being worded as it is. I'm sorry for whatever it has caused.
And here's the second problem. A class feature is always also an ability; I assumed you assumed this (common ground is hard :smalltongue:). If it's not specified as being (Ex), (Sp), or (Su), it's a natural ability (like a lion's claws are a natural ability), but a class feature is always an ability.

However Improved Binding doesn't state in can be taken multiple times, like for instance other feats such as toughness does, so I'm forced to assume that it can't be, or the very least the effect won't stack.
Yep, you can't stack Improved Binding.

Good we're clear on this point!

Another thing I want to briefly touch upon because the rules aren't very specific about this.
For instance the Fiend-blooded PrC has a requirement that specifically states: Race: Any humanoid race (cannot already be a half-fiend).
I also notice that the PrC doesn't make you a half-fiend and make no mention of it makes you unable to take the half-fiend template at a later point.
- The only real requirement is that you have have descended from a fiend (feat requirement) which you could've because rp reasons rather than mechanical reasons.
Bloodline: Demon or Devil definitely supports this from a game mechanical aspect but doesn't seem to be necessary.
Also when inspecting the half-fiend template, both the savage progression and the standard +4 LA template it seems to me that this template is a lot stronger than what 4 levels in the Fiend-blooded PrC will give, although one will miss out on the +4 to existing spellcasting going with half-fiend instead. I'm not sure exactly what sufficiently would make one qualify for the half-fiend templates, but again the bloodlines: demon or devil seems to support it. UHS is specifically stated as being something else than a fiend even when the parent was a fiend of any kind and the bloodlines: Demon and Devil doesn't make you a half-fiend either, so a UHS should be able to take either of the half-fiend templates or the fiend-blooded.

To me it seems that combining UHS with a bloodline in either demon or devil with either half-fiend or fiend-blooded would make a lot of sense to do, especially if contemplating getting into the FoB.
The half-fiend templates seems like a quite strong candidate for a character with UHS and either the bloodline demon or devil. I don't know if this is just me or there actually could be something potent here.
Half-fiend was re-evaluated to be LA +3 on the same thread as the doppelganger.

I would advise at template-stacking to such a high level adjustment, though. If you look at UHS and HF, you see that both gain SLAs depending on HD. With that high level adjustment, not only do you lose additional class features, you also lose those extra SLAs.

Compare the following:

Half-fiend 6 HD +3 LA. SLAs @ CL 6: darkness, desecrate, unholy blight
Unholy Scion 6 HD +3 LA. SLAs @ CL 6: charm person, desecrate, enervation, protection from good
Half-fiend Unholy Scion 3 HD +6 LA. SLAs @ CL 3: darkness, charm person, desecrate (twice)

You start losing too much due to high LAs.

Also, some build combinations I've been fiddling with if going with a different race that is LA+0 and preferably has only 1 RHD, still humanoid, and with good will saves + some nice goodies.
I'm not sure what you hope to gain by going Death Master and warlock (for a binder/fiend of blasphemy, warlock 1 is only for filling out a loose level after you've run out of stuff to take).

If you go with UHS human (just as example), Tenebrous Apostate, and Fiend of Blasphemy, you would like to do this: Take one level binder, buy 4 ranks in all five Ur-Priest skills, take all three bloodline levels, then take binder 2, spend 10 skill points on meeting Ur-Priest requirements, and enter UP at level 3 (ECL 6).

You probably can't do this because you don't have 10 skill points when taking binder 2 (binders only get 2+int, you'd need 24 int + human). Instead, you can take a third level. I would recommend the following starting point:

- UHS human binder 2/X 1/ur-priest 2/tenebrous apostate 5/fiend of blasphemy 6.

X only needs to have the right class skills. Binder can meet the requirements in Bluff and two other skills.

I think Human Paragon would be pretty cool. You're a paragon of humanity, but simultaneously a scion of ultimate evil. So:

- UHS human paragon 1/human binder 2/ur-priest 2/tenebrous apostate 5/fiend of blasphemy 6/human paragon +2.

Assuming a starting 10 in intelligence (16 after template), you'd get 8x4 skill points at level 1, then 6 each for the binder levels. Pick Spellcraft as Adaptive Learning skill, and you're set.

Incarnate

2017-11-10, 01:10 AM

Half-fiend was re-evaluated to be LA +3 on the same thread as the doppelganger.

I would advise at template-stacking to such a high level adjustment, though. If you look at UHS and HF, you see that both gain SLAs depending on HD. With that high level adjustment, not only do you lose additional class features, you also lose those extra SLAs.

Compare the following:

Half-fiend 6 HD +3 LA. SLAs @ CL 6: darkness, desecrate, unholy blight
Unholy Scion 6 HD +3 LA. SLAs @ CL 6: charm person, desecrate, enervation, protection from good
Half-fiend Unholy Scion 3 HD +6 LA. SLAs @ CL 3: darkness, charm person, desecrate (twice)

You start losing too much due to high LAs.

Yes, that is IF you use the LA+3 template rather than the template from the savage race progression you'd be losing more due LA+3. However if you use the half-fiend class template from the savage progression you actually get something from the levels which is a big difference in comparison to it just being level adjusted, also to note here, as far as I can see here, the SLA's gained from it is based on character level and not HD.

So a 14HD Character with UHS + HF would get SLAs @ CL14:

From HF: Darkness 3/day|Desecrate 1/day|Poison 3/day|Unholy blight 1/day|Contagion 1/day|Blasphemy 1/day|Unholy aura 3/day|Unhallow 1/day|

From UHS: Charm Person 3/day|Desecrate|Enervation|Protection from good 3/day|Major Image 3/day|Poison 3/day|Dominate Person|Baleful Polymorph|Animate Dead|Trueseeing 3/day|Unholy Aura 3/day|Unhallow|

Thats quite a lot of SLA's compared to what you mentioned with only 8HD in difference, where some of them are gained from both, which in turn also could be transfered to his cultists to empower them.
2x Desecrate
2x Poison 3/day
2x Unholy Aura 3/day
2x Unhallow

Plus also to remember the half-fiend also gives some quite nice passives which stack, and the attribute adjustments aren't to scoff at either. But yes, overall one would lose out other things which could be of significant difference.

I'm not sure what you hope to gain by going Death Master and warlock (for a binder/fiend of blasphemy, warlock 1 is only for filling out a loose level after you've run out of stuff to take).

First: The warlock was to give and at will based alter self ability - Shrouding transformation, also being able to transfer eldritch blast to his cultist certainly also seems viable. Also to note, if hellfire warlock was chosen later on, it would be beneficial to the character because he can bind naberious, but he could also transfer the hellfire blast to his cultists as well.
Second: The Death Master gets rebuke undead, an undead minion that gets stronger with levels and a lot of really useful and strong spells already at level one, including also being able to wear armor and remove arcane spell failure through just adding the class specific somatic component when casting. Additionally it fits very well with the theme, Orcus worship. Plus having extra caster levels seems like a good idea.

Additionally to note here, its also because I was interested in the arcane spellcasting, and to me the Death Master seems like one of the stronger necromancer type casters.

If you go with UHS human (just as example), Tenebrous Apostate, and Fiend of Blasphemy, you would like to do this: Take one level binder, buy 4 ranks in all five Ur-Priest skills, take all three bloodline levels, then take binder 2, spend 10 skill points on meeting Ur-Priest requirements, and enter UP at level 3 (ECL 6).

You probably can't do this because you don't have 10 skill points when taking binder 2 (binders only get 2+int, you'd need 24 int + human). Instead, you can take a third level. I would recommend the following starting point:

- UHS human binder 2/X 1/ur-priest 2/tenebrous apostate 5/fiend of blasphemy 6.

X only needs to have the right class skills. Binder can meet the requirements in Bluff and two other skills.

I think Human Paragon would be pretty cool. You're a paragon of humanity, but simultaneously a scion of ultimate evil. So:

- UHS human paragon 1/human binder 2/ur-priest 2/tenebrous apostate 5/fiend of blasphemy 6/human paragon +2.

Assuming a starting 10 in intelligence (16 after template), you'd get 8x4 skill points at level 1, then 6 each for the binder levels. Pick Spellcraft as Adaptive Learning skill, and you're set.

I'm definitely going to put more points towards the intelligence score and not just let it be adjusted by the template and racials, so with adjustments its probably going to be around 20 (14+6), so a +5 mod. (8+5)x4=13x4 = 52 points, which should be more than enough to reach the requirements.

The idea of a paragon of humanity and a scion of ultimate evil at the same time sounds cool enough, just as a half-celestial / half-fiend does ;)

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-10, 09:01 AM

Yes, that is IF you use the LA+3 template rather than the template from the savage race progression you'd be losing more due LA+3. However if you use the half-fiend class template from the savage progression you actually get something from the levels which is a big difference in comparison to it just being level adjusted [...]
Savage progression classes don't get any HD. They're just a way to spread LA across levels. There's no difference between applying a savage progression and the regular template.

[A]s far as I can see here, the SLA's gained from it is based on character level and not HD.

So a 14HD Character with UHS + HF would get SLAs @ CL14:

From HF: Darkness 3/day|Desecrate 1/day|Poison 3/day|Unholy blight 1/day|Contagion 1/day|Blasphemy 1/day|Unholy aura 3/day|Unhallow 1/day|

From UHS: Charm Person 3/day|Desecrate|Enervation|Protection from good 3/day|Major Image 3/day|Poison 3/day|Dominate Person|Baleful Polymorph|Animate Dead|Trueseeing 3/day|Unholy Aura 3/day|Unhallow|

Thats quite a lot of SLA's compared to what you mentioned with only 8HD in difference, where some of them are gained from both, which in turn also could be transfered to his cultists to empower them.
2x Desecrate
2x Poison 3/day
2x Unholy Aura 3/day
2x Unhallow
Character level is hit dice (see Savage Species page 5).

And yes, you get quite a lot of SLAs, but spells typically get much stronger as their levels go up. You're just looking at the number of SLAs, not at what you lose.

At ECL 20, with 17 HD and UHS, you get, in addition to +3 CL and what you quoted, the following SLAs: harm and gate. Gate is extremely powerful, especially since you ignore the 1000 XP cost. It literally allows you to call Orcus and bring him through (though he's not required to do so) as a standard action.
At ECL 20, with 17 HD and HF, you get, in addition to +3 CL and what you quoted, the following SLAs: horrid wilting and summon monster IX. Summon monster IX @ CL 17 gets you, for example, a pleasure devil for 17 rounds. Pleasure devils can cast polymorph and trap the soul at CL 17.

The UHS SLAs gained at 15-17 HD are probably better than the HF SLAs gained at 1-14 HD, especially when you consider the CL increase, the addition to skill ranks, hp, base attack, saves, class features, and caster levels.

First: The warlock was to give and at will based alter self ability - Shrouding transformation, also being able to transfer eldritch blast to his cultist certainly also seems viable. Also to note, if hellfire warlock was chosen later on, it would be beneficial to the character because he can bind naberious, but he could also transfer the hellfire blast to his cultists as well.
Shrouding Transformation isn't an invocation. It does not exist.

Transferring eldritch blast is really weak, because it's a single use of a 1d6 ranged touch attack. Transferring something like Beguiling Influence is good, though. It lasts for 24 hours, so if you give a few cultists the +6 to social skills, that makes your cult really convincing. Still not sure it's worth a level, but possible.

Second: The Death Master gets rebuke undead, an undead minion that gets stronger with levels and a lot of really useful and strong spells already at level one, including also being able to wear armor and remove arcane spell failure through just adding the class specific somatic component when casting. Additionally it fits very well with the theme, Orcus worship. Plus having extra caster levels seems like a good idea.

Additionally to note here, its also because I was interested in the arcane spellcasting, and to me the Death Master seems like one of the stronger necromancer type casters.
Death Master is nice, but in the builds you posted, you only advanced its casting for about ten, twelve levels--meaning you don't get high-level spells. The reason I suggested Ur-Priest is that you get 9th-level spells (translation: really powerful stuff) with only 9 levels of casting, so there's lots of room for things like doppelganger HD, level adjustment, binder levels, and all that sort of thing.

Oh, and Ur-Priest grants Rebuke Undead at level 2, and Tenebrous grants Turn and Rebuke Undead as well (one use of either every five rounds).

If you want an undead minion, I suggest simply using animate dead. That'll be stronger than the class minion. Or create greater undead or animate dread warrior.

Incarnate

2017-11-10, 08:01 PM

And yes, you get quite a lot of SLAs, but spells typically get much stronger as their levels go up. You're just looking at the number of SLAs, not at what you lose.

At ECL 20, with 17 HD and UHS, you get, in addition to +3 CL and what you quoted, the following SLAs: harm and gate. Gate is extremely powerful, especially since you ignore the 1000 XP cost. It literally allows you to call Orcus and bring him through (though he's not required to do so) as a standard action.
At ECL 20, with 17 HD and HF, you get, in addition to +3 CL and what you quoted, the following SLAs: horrid wilting and summon monster IX. Summon monster IX @ CL 17 gets you, for example, a pleasure devil for 17 rounds. Pleasure devils can cast polymorph and trap the soul at CL 17.

The UHS SLAs gained at 15-17 HD are probably better than the HF SLAs gained at 1-14 HD, especially when you consider the CL increase, the addition to skill ranks, hp, base attack, saves, class features, and caster levels.

The very reason I was looking to get more SLA's is due to FoB's ability to transfer spell like abilities, which is also quite an important aspect for the character's goal, for instance it can be used from a roleplaying perspective as a tool to bait people into becoming blood oathed and then to reward the blood oathed cultists for their continued efforts. It would also make them more powerful mininions as opposed to others of their respective class and level. Not necessarily that much more powerful, but every bit helps.

So if not going with the Half-fiend I think it would be a good idea to see how the FoB could be optimized to get more SLA's, since its only UHS granting SLA's currently, and maybe a few coming from classes, for instance the warlock's Eldritch Blast which is a spell-like ability. Heritage feats could also offer some SLA's, like for instance feats from the Fiendish Heritage line:

Fiendish Heritage: You gain a +4 bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison. You also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws against spells or other effects produced by good creatures.
*Is a requirement for the rest of the Fiendish Heritage feats.

Fiendish Presence: You gain the following spell-like abilities, each usable once per day: cause fear, detect thoughts, and suggestion. Your caster level equals your character level.
*Seems like a good choice, as they will help the character with what he seeks to achieve.

Fiendish Power: Your caster level and save DCs for evil spells and warlock invocations increase by 1.
*Not necessary for the build but could be good I guess.

Fiendish Legacy: You gain the following spell-like abilities, each usable once per day: teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), summon monster V (fiendish creatures only), and unholy blight. Your caster level equals your character level
*Requires character level 9'th. Nice SLA's.

Fiendish Resistance: You gain resistance to acid and fire equal to three times the number of feats you have that list Fiendish Heritage as a prerequisite (including such feats that you take after gaining this one). These values stack with any resistance to acid or fire you might have from your type, subtype, race, or class, but not from other sources, such as spells or magic items.
*This one might be more of a waste feat wise, considering there might be some better feats for the character, but definitely is a bad choice considering it stacks and with the either most or all feats in the fiendish heritage feat line, one would get considerable resistances.

Although, to me it seems that the Draconic Heritage and Illithid Heritage Feat lines are alot more potent than the fiendish. However its a lot of feats, so I don't know if it would be a good idea to go this route, because I also wanted to go for the Dark Speech feat, which by the way also would be good if that would get incorporated into the build, I'm not thinking of the hivemind cheese, but it certainly wouldn't be bad if I could get the most out of the feat.

Shrouding Transformation isn't an invocation. It does not exist.
Sadly, I think you're right. It's here on this list (http://dnd.kermodebear.org/InvocationLists) - which isn't official. It has been used before in the group, I'm not exactly sure how exactly it was accepted as legal, I guess someone didn't check if it was in the official rules since many of them can be recoqnized straight off as official ones. I've checked all the official material and I reach the same conclusion as you, it's possible it's been in Dragon Magazine.

Transferring eldritch blast is really weak, because it's a single use of a 1d6 ranged touch attack. Transferring something like Beguiling Influence is good, though. It lasts for 24 hours, so if you give a few cultists the +6 to social skills, that makes your cult really convincing. Still not sure it's worth a level, but possible.

Yes, its quite weak at level 1, but its possible to add more levels to warlock, which I think wouldn't be a bad idea considering the FoB actually needs some optimization in terms of transferable SLAs.
Also, going up in warlock levels would also increase the eldritch blast, same with if hellfire warlock is entered.

Death Master is nice, but in the builds you posted, you only advanced its casting for about ten, twelve levels--meaning you don't get high-level spells. The reason I suggested Ur-Priest is that you get 9th-level spells (translation: really powerful stuff) with only 9 levels of casting, so there's lots of room for things like doppelganger HD, level adjustment, binder levels, and all that sort of thing.

Yes, in those builds I didn't but it is worth considering for other potential builds for this character, where arcane casting is being more central to the build. I agree, Ur-priest is a powerful class certainly, and I agree its important to use when using when being behind with caster progression due to LA or RHD's. Also, I think its worth mentioning that I've also considered that the character could be trying to further an Elder Evil, which would also net the character some extra feats plus extra skill points. Since Orcus isn't a god, its shouldn't be a problem, or am I wrong here?

Oh, and Ur-Priest grants Rebuke Undead at level 2, and Tenebrous grants Turn and Rebuke Undead as well (one use of either every five rounds).

If you want an undead minion, I suggest simply using animate dead. That'll be stronger than the class minion. Or create greater undead or animate dread warrior.

IF the DM class was more central to the build the class minion would get stronger than the undead minions you get from animate dead, so you're right when its not central the animate dead will be stronger.

By the way, I've noticed that Psionic classes have been suggested a few times, which I think could be good, but not I'm really sure how it could fit the build. Not sure what mantles to take if going with a psionic class.
Maybe something like:

Doppelganger 4 UHS 3 / Ardent 2 / Binder 2 / Ur-Priest 2 / Psychic Theurge 4 / FoB 6 / Bloodline(Major) 3 - ECL = 23 + LA BUYOFF = 20
*Illithid Heritage feats could make sense and the same goes Flayerspawn PrC although I think it would be difficult to fit it unless something was dropped from the build.
*It would seem plausible that this build might be able to benefit from the hivemind rules by the Dark Speech feat, though not in any way like the cheese. Though it depends if the spell Insect Plague could be used for it, otherwise the Extra Spell feat should be take to unlock the Summon Swarm from the druid spell list, or something similar.

UHS 3/Ardent 3/Binder 2/Ur-Priest 3/Psychic Theurge 6/FoB 6/Bloodline(Major) 3/ - 23 + LA BUYOFF = ECL 20

EBL:5|CL:9|ML:9|FoBCL:9|
*with Improved Binding it would be EBL 7.
*ML might be 12 - Not sure if the bloodlines affect it.
*Despite the CL being 9 it would have access to 8'th level Cleric spells

UHS 3/Ardent 3/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 3/Psychic Theurge 7/FoB 6/Bloodline(Major) 3/ - 23 + LA BUYOFF = ECL 20

EBL:6|CL:10|ML:10|FoBCL:9|
*with Improved Binding it would be EBL 7.
*ML might be 13 - Not sure if the bloodlines affect it.
*Despite the CL being 10 it would have access to 9'th level Cleric spells