PDA

View Full Version : Help! I need a cyberpunk RPG that works.



Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 04:20 AM
Ok - here's my conundrum in a nutshell: I'm reading Paulo Bacigalupi, and I need my CP fix.

I play Dark Heresy, and I try to make it cyperpunky, but ... it's really not the best solution. There's Shadowrun, but Shadowrun simply doesn't work as a system. It's only playable if you don't use the matrix or magic rules, but then everyone is just 'some guy with a gun.' It's awful.

There has to be a game out there that actually works. Something without the fluff shackles of DH, and without the systemic dysfunction of SR.

Anyone? =)

On a sidenote, if you're not reading PB, you're doing it wrong.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-02, 05:57 AM
What do you want from cyberpunk?

Because if you're willing to slog through the various subsystems (hacking, Rep networks, resleeving, potentially Psi) and the fact it's 2000s rather than 80s cyberpunk Eclipse Phase works. It makes a bunch of assumptions that are on the one hand unusual (most hacking will be done in AR) and at the same time work (the hacking system is literally 'make a roll to log in successfully, make another couple of rolls to check you've avoided the countermeasures'). But, well, it's not 'classic' cyberpunk, in the 1e corebook corporations are evil (this is mitigated in later books) and autonomists are awesome, but the transhuman element is very strong and your standard cyberpunk characters likely won't get by (apart from the Decker, he'll love it).

There's an official Fate Core hack, but then Fate can do anything if you approach the game and setting in the right way.

For other systems, Cyberpunk 2013/2020 has the decker problem as well, and then when you remove netrunners you're left with a mixture of social types and people with guns (assuming everybody just doesn't go Solo). Some of the abilities are useless, and some would be good if there were more guidelines on how to use them.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 06:18 AM
The fluff that comes with a system is a guideline at best - for instance, I dismiss 40k lore almost out of hand, and never use anything out of SR except games take place in Seattle, and I might as well Corp names for ease of reference.

No, I want a system that works. The piles of abstraction needed for matrix in SR is just .... a major flaw. So is the fact that mages can obliterate anything other than other mages. It doesn't work. In DH, all social skills are linked to groupings in the Imperium - be it Adepta or Ecclesiarchy - and everything concerning tech or psionics is hugely regimented.

This Eclipse Phase sounds interesting. And if it has resleeving, it has Richard Morgan in it's DNA, and that's a huge recommendation. Even if he can only really write book 1's.

Bastian Weaver
2017-11-02, 06:46 AM
If in doubt, try GURPS.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 07:35 AM
If in doubt, try GURPS.

I did. Mind, this was when I was like, maybe 20, so more than 20 years ago. At the time, I looked at how health was generated, looked at armor, then looked at the damage of a gatling laser, and never looked no more.

In principle, it's fine. It's rocket tag. Win initiative, have a plan to kill everyone you meet before they kill you. But if that's all combat is, it's just ... no.

Same for fantasy, by the way. There was essentially no sensible reason to ever expect to survive a lance charge. Sure, it's realistic, but 'boom, you die!' just isn't much of a game.

Mordaedil
2017-11-02, 07:46 AM
Adding a bit of an outlier, have you considered trying the Fallout pen and paper system based on the video game series?

Never tried it myself, but I have the old pdf for that lying around.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 09:17 AM
Adding a bit of an outlier, have you considered trying the Fallout pen and paper system based on the video game series?

Never tried it myself, but I have the old pdf for that lying around.

See, that's by no means un-clever.

Trouble with Fallout pnp is that is runs into the 'everyone is a guy with a gun' problem. It doesn't have a great deal of variety - no matrix, magic, vehicle, and so on, side to it.

And ... well - potentially it runs the risk of being too Fallout, same as all the 40k being too 40k.

But not a bad suggestion by any means. Thanks =)

Actana
2017-11-02, 09:35 AM
Here's (http://ageofravens.blogspot.fi/2017/10/history-of-cyberpunk-rpgs-part-six-2012.html) a rather comprehensive overview of all kinds of Cyberpunk games. They're gone through briefly, so you can skim through the posts rather quickly.

As for specific recommendations, Eclipse Phase comes to mind. Nova Praxis is pretty decent if you like Fate. If you like Powered by the Apocalypse games there's both The Veil and The Sprawl. Cyberpunk 2020 is... Well, it's a game. It's kind of the granddaddy of cyberpunk RPGs, but it's very flawed and unbalanced in many respects. But it's worth looking into anyway.

Nerd-o-rama
2017-11-02, 09:42 AM
If you want to make up the setting fluff entirely by yourself, Fate works for everything. Fate Accelerated might even work best as you can apply "approaches" easily to everything from fighting to hacking to freerunning.

I have no good recs for something that comes setting included that haven't already been mentioned, though.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 10:13 AM
Fate, huh?

Never actually come across it in any real way, but seen it mentioned time and again. Looking over it now, it seems ... decent. I've long had my own ideas about how I'd make a game, and this is similar.

Different question: Since I'm sure whatever system I pick, I'll be the only one who knows the rules - should I make pre-gen characters?

Airk
2017-11-02, 10:52 AM
The best cyberpunk game sadly doesn't exist yet. Specifically, the reskin of Blades in the Dark that was funded as a stretch goal during the Kickstarter. It's still early stages, I believe, which is a shame, since you can just LOOK at Blades and see how it would work in Cyberpunk.

Anyway, you COULD do it in Fate, if you like the sort of "very competent characters" that Fate produces. (Which totally does work with certain types of Cyberpunk). If you are looking for serious "niche protection" or character differentiation you need to really enforce Aspects As Truth, but for a lot of groups that happens automatically.

It's kinda important that decide what you want your cyberpunk to be though; Shadowrun, for example, sells one thing, but ends up just being a whole lot of guys shooting/maiming/killing each other...

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-02, 10:54 AM
I did. Mind, this was when I was like, maybe 20, so more than 20 years ago. At the time, I looked at how health was generated, looked at armor, then looked at the damage of a gatling laser, and never looked no more.
Umm. Shouldn't that be appropriate for a guy getting shot with a heavy weapon?


Fate, huh?

Never actually come across it in any real way, but seen it mentioned time and again. Looking over it now, it seems ... decent. I've long had my own ideas about how I'd make a game, and this is similar.

Different question: Since I'm sure whatever system I pick, I'll be the only one who knows the rules - should I make pre-gen characters?
"Decent" is my assessment of Fate as well. The underlying Fudge system is a solid mechanical base; aspects work... well for characters and weirdly for everything else (half the advice you get when you ask about them is not at all clear from the books), and special powers tend to be "screw it, make the rules to yourself.". It's a good choice for talk-heavy games and an acceptable one for other things. Not as easy to DM as you'd like, due to having to keep track of lots of aspects and keep Fate points flowing.

I wouldn't make pre-gens, though. Picking skills is pretty easy, and aspects-- the core of the game-- are too personally important to pre-assign.

Airk
2017-11-02, 11:04 AM
Oh yeah, that other question.

Pregens? Asnwer: It depends. :P

Mostly it depends on the system you pick. If you pick Fate Accelerated, the answer is "Hell no" because creating characters takes like 10 minutes, and is mostly about "What do I want this guy to be like?"; If you decide to completely reskin a heftier game, then yes, it's probably a good idea to build at least some archetypes and let people customize them.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 11:07 AM
Umm. Shouldn't that be appropriate for a guy getting shot with a heavy weapon?

Well - yes and no.

What are we trying to emulate here? A guy being shot with most anything is going to simply die. Heavy weapon, light weapon, grenade, hit by a truck, jump from a building, struck by a sword ... we just tend to die from massive damage.

So yes, if we're emulating reality, we should reroll a whole damn lot.

But I don't really think we are. We're emulating movies, books, legends - we're emulating those guys in history who got lucky and survived a ton of crap falling on them. So, no. We don't want the guy getting shot with a heavy weapon to die. We want him to have a selection of ways to beat death. That's how the story gets good: By not getting squashed every other time initiative is rolled, but cheating fate my a hairs breadth.


"Decent" is my assessment of Fate as well. The underlying Fudge system is a solid mechanical base; aspects work... well for characters and weirdly for everything else (half the advice you get when you ask about them is not at all clear from the books), and special powers tend to be "screw it, make the rules to yourself.". It's a good choice for talk-heavy games and an acceptable one for other things. Not as easy to DM as you'd like, due to having to keep track of lots of aspects and keep Fate points flowing.

I wouldn't make pre-gens, though. Picking skills is pretty easy, and aspects-- the core of the game-- are too personally important to pre-assign.

In principle I agree. But getting people to actually read new rules is a chore of it's own. So ... it's sort of an easy in? Grab this guy, modify as needed - and if he dies in the course of duty, make your own.

The Glyphstone
2017-11-02, 11:22 AM
But you are explicitly measuring it against heavy weaponry, the sort meant to fight armored vehicles or entrenched positions. Calling a game 'rocket tag' is one thing for systems like Dark Heresy, where one lucky/unlucky hit with a slug-throwing pistol can cripple or kill its target. When you are literally playing tag with rocket launchers or their equivalent, it's not the same. Even action movie heroes don't bounce RPGs or tank shells off their impressively flexed abdominal muscles, they heroically dodge out of the blast radius because even they can't survive a hit like that. A typical fight is not going to feature everyone toting squad-support weaponry, so it's unfair to use it as an expected balancing point.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-02, 11:48 AM
Fate, huh?

Never actually come across it in any real way, but seen it mentioned time and again. Looking over it now, it seems ... decent. I've long had my own ideas about how I'd make a game, and this is similar.

Different question: Since I'm sure whatever system I pick, I'll be the only one who knows the rules - should I make pre-gen characters?

Yeah, Fate is weird. In general the more work the group puts into the game the better it is. Fate Core is designed around a session zero (not so much FAE), where the entire group will get together, create the world, decide what the issues are, decide on some important faces and places, potentially give those faces and places issues, discuss any rules changes, and so on. To the point where if I'm running a premade setting (say Red Mars) I'd still go through the Game Creation sheet, just so everybody's on the same page as to what our themes are and what's important.

As part of this you make characters, which includes Aspects which may or may not be related to what you've just came up with, and may or may not add more faces and places to the game. The most time consuming aspect is creating stunts, but there's good guidelines. So if using Fate no, you should not make pre-gens.


In principle I agree. But getting people to actually read new rules is a chore of it's own. So ... it's sort of an easy in? Grab this guy, modify as needed - and if he dies in the course of duty, make your own.

The problem with that and Fate is that character creation is intentionally a game in and off itself. While you can do this with skills (although with the Skill Pyramid it's quick and easy) and stunts, doing this with Aspects is a recipe for disaster.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 01:00 PM
But you are explicitly measuring it against heavy weaponry, the sort meant to fight armored vehicles or entrenched positions. Calling a game 'rocket tag' is one thing for systems like Dark Heresy, where one lucky/unlucky hit with a slug-throwing pistol can cripple or kill its target. When you are literally playing tag with rocket launchers or their equivalent, it's not the same. Even action movie heroes don't bounce RPGs or tank shells off their impressively flexed abdominal muscles, they heroically dodge out of the blast radius because even they can't survive a hit like that. A typical fight is not going to feature everyone toting squad-support weaponry, so it's unfair to use it as an expected balancing point.

In DH - you have fate you can burn to avoid righteous fury.

In GURPS, you die.

Mind, this is GURPS as of twenty-propably-something-like-seven years ago. But there was essentially absolutely nothing between you and a crit - or even just a high multiplier attack. Sure, a gatling laser is a heavy weapon, but a lance is not. There was - literally - no way you could survive a charge by lancer.

Well you could hope for a miss, I guess.

By comparison, DH is hugely forgiving. It has high armor (plus toughness), dodge rolls, fate to burn, criticals aren't lethal for the first half or so, there are force fields, and so on. I still wouldn't recommened getting hit by a multi-melta, but I think the percentage chance of getting away with it are way better in DH.

The Glyphstone
2017-11-02, 01:13 PM
I'm just saying that picking one of the highest-lethality weapons available barring vehicle-grade weapons might not be the best choice for judging the combat-balance of a system.

Granted, from what I understand GURPS is also highly if variably lethal at the lower end of the scale. But that isn't because all the mooks tote gatling lasers, it's because the universal system assumes base-human unless told otherwise. Like the lance, that's about as low-tech as you can get and it can pulp you.


On-topic, though - is high lethality not something you want in your cyberpunk? AFAIK, the squishiness of boring old meatbodies is part and parcel into the genre, it's one of the encouragements for people to chrome themselves voluntarily.

Magic Myrmidon
2017-11-02, 01:25 PM
Sounds like you're in my shoes about a year ago. I love me some cyberpunk, but all the systems that I found were either crunchy to the point of inaccessibility (important for some of my players), or so rules light that there is nothing to dig into (important for me).

My go-to for cyberpunk is actually a setting for Savage Worlds called Interface Zero 2.0. Savage Worlds is pretty rules-medium, and IZ 2.0 adds plenty of cyberpunk levers to pull. One of my favorite parts is that it keeps hackers with the party, and doesn't give them their own minigame. Hacking is done wirelessly and on-the-fly, so you don't have to deal with matrix rules or the like. There's also some pretty good character variety. Psychics, hackers, guys with guns, animal hybrids, replicants, and sooorta riggers. Drones are a bit too expensive for starting characters.

Pretty cool realization of Earth in 2090, too, if you're looking for fluff.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-02, 01:27 PM
In principle I agree. But getting people to actually read new rules is a chore of it's own. So ... it's sort of an easy in? Grab this guy, modify as needed - and if he dies in the course of duty, make your own.
I've done Fate character creation with total RPG newbies-- the sort who not just don't know the rules of this specific game, but who struggle with general concepts like "what does having a skill do?" It's not that bad. (And for people who just don't know this game, how long does "come up with 5 catchy descriptive phrases, and pick ten skills off this list of 20" take?). It takes longer if you do the whole crossing-paths backstory generation and group campaign/setting brainstorming, but those are optional and no more essential to the functioning of Fate than any other game. There are also rules for making a character literally as you play through the first session, filling in skills and aspects and such as you go. I've never tried it, but it seems neat.

If you do go pre-gens, I'd fill in skills, stunts, and one high concept aspect, and let the players come up with another ~four.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 02:43 PM
I'm just saying that picking one of the highest-lethality weapons available barring vehicle-grade weapons might not be the best choice for judging the combat-balance of a system.

Granted, from what I understand GURPS is also highly if variably lethal at the lower end of the scale. But that isn't because all the mooks tote gatling lasers, it's because the universal system assumes base-human unless told otherwise. Like the lance, that's about as low-tech as you can get and it can pulp you.


On-topic, though - is high lethality not something you want in your cyberpunk? AFAIK, the squishiness of boring old meatbodies is part and parcel into the genre, it's one of the encouragements for people to chrome themselves voluntarily.

It becomes an entire - other - discussion.

On a basic level, GURPS is lethal based on luck. It isn't about the gatling laser. Rather, whatever you do, weapon damage + strength bonus x crit modifier deals more damage than you have to lose. The end.

Shadowrun has damage levels and fate and dice pools. Dark Heresy has ... all that stuff I mentioned already. GURPS, to me, feels like it's designed to be sort of not very deadly, until suddenly you randomly die to no fault of your own, just random dice.

And yes, you're right, cyberpunk is deliberately deadly. That's why most of the games give you a way to chose to survive the odds.


Sounds like you're in my shoes about a year ago. I love me some cyberpunk, but all the systems that I found were either crunchy to the point of inaccessibility (important for some of my players), or so rules light that there is nothing to dig into (important for me).

My go-to for cyberpunk is actually a setting for Savage Worlds called Interface Zero 2.0. Savage Worlds is pretty rules-medium, and IZ 2.0 adds plenty of cyberpunk levers to pull. One of my favorite parts is that it keeps hackers with the party, and doesn't give them their own minigame. Hacking is done wirelessly and on-the-fly, so you don't have to deal with matrix rules or the like. There's also some pretty good character variety. Psychics, hackers, guys with guns, animal hybrids, replicants, and sooorta riggers. Drones are a bit too expensive for starting characters.

Pretty cool realization of Earth in 2090, too, if you're looking for fluff.

I've played some Savage Worlds. I have the books, even. Only ever played their western thing, but I should look into this.


I've done Fate character creation with total RPG newbies-- the sort who not just don't know the rules of this specific game, but who struggle with general concepts like "what does having a skill do?" It's not that bad. (And for people who just don't know this game, how long does "come up with 5 catchy descriptive phrases, and pick ten skills off this list of 20" take?). It takes longer if you do the whole crossing-paths backstory generation and group campaign/setting brainstorming, but those are optional and no more essential to the functioning of Fate than any other game. There are also rules for making a character literally as you play through the first session, filling in skills and aspects and such as you go. I've never tried it, but it seems neat.

If you do go pre-gens, I'd fill in skills, stunts, and one high concept aspect, and let the players come up with another ~four.

You know? I think I've played some FATE. The whole group dynamic rings a bell.

Game never got too far, but I remember actually liking the system.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-02, 02:48 PM
Remember that in GURPS you're not automatically dead until -3*HP or -5*HP (I think the latter, but I'm unsure), but for each increment of your HP you have below zero the more likely you are to drop or die. I think at 0HP it's roll or you lose consciousness, then at -HP you start having a chance of death.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 04:07 PM
Remember that in GURPS you're not automatically dead until -3*HP or -5*HP (I think the latter, but I'm unsure), but for each increment of your HP you have below zero the more likely you are to drop or die. I think at 0HP it's roll or you lose consciousness, then at -HP you start having a chance of death.

Let's avoid making this a discussion of GURPS. But, yes, I know.

From memory, a strong man on heavy horse rolls 3d6 (lance), +1d6 (his own str bonus), +5d6 (the horse's str) x6, penetrating.

There is literally no room for negotiation. You die.

The most insane armor (dragon scale) is like 8 points, you can expect to have 10 HP in the chest (where you have the most). No if's, no but's, no nothing. It scales to infinity, there is no difference between a lance or a war pick and a thermonuclear detonation. You equally tear up your sheet and roll anew.

Remember, this was like 1990. Mikhail Gorbatjov was president in Russia. There was only the one Gulf war. I'm fairly sure my recollection is on point, but for all I know the system is entirely different now.

But back then? Not impressed with it.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-02, 04:20 PM
As a final aside, these days it would be more like thrust+1d for damage, so probably no more than 4d6, maybe +1d or +2d when charging on the horse (afb). Might even just be something like thrust+3, I can't remember if melee weapons add flat numbers or both dice and flat numbers.

Plus in 4e and 3e GURPS doesn't have any locational hp. I love GURPS, but it's not that detailed.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-02, 04:40 PM
As a final aside, these days it would be more like thrust+1d for damage, so probably no more than 4d6, maybe +1d or +2d when charging on the horse (afb). Might even just be something like thrust+3, I can't remember if melee weapons add flat numbers or both dice and flat numbers.

Plus in 4e and 3e GURPS doesn't have any locational hp. I love GURPS, but it's not that detailed.

Heheh - this is why I point out some water has passed under the bridge since. Back then, it was pretty damned crazy. I remember my friend (the guy who had the books) told me how much damage his test character could do with a pick. When I told him that was crazy, he said 'well, then check out how lances work'.

TheTeaMustFlow
2017-11-02, 09:17 PM
I'm fairly certain there are some cinematic optional rules for GURPS that make it less horribly lethal, no?

In terms of actual system recommendations, have you considered the FFG Star Wars RPG (Edge of the Empire and so on)? It has all the high tech stuff like cybernetics, robots and hacking, and it would be very easy to refluff to a cyberpunk world - just either ditch alien races or switch them to mutants/genetically engineered abhumans/biomods or whatever, ditch the force or refluff it to magic/psionics or whatever, and you're good to go. Heck, you could even just run a cyberpunk game in the SW setting, just plonk the characters in the Coruscant undercity or Nar Shadaa.

If you're not allergic to OGL, there's also D20 Modern, which has various cyberpunkish supplements. SW Saga Edition could also work.

Feng Shui, oddly enough, also does cyberpunk fairly well. Even has a cyberpunk sub-setting already.

Mr Beer
2017-11-02, 09:20 PM
Let's avoid making this a discussion of GURPS. But, yes, I know.

From memory, a strong man on heavy horse rolls 3d6 (lance), +1d6 (his own str bonus), +5d6 (the horse's str) x6, penetrating.

There is literally no room for negotiation. You die.

It didn't work like that in 3e, IIRC it was something like horse thrust ST (probably something like 3d) + 3 impaling for the lance. So 3d6d+3 impaling = 13 or 14 points. Say against DR 4 = 10 points gets through, doubled for impaling = 20 points. Against a typical mook with say HT 11 they go to -9 HP and make a HT to go unconscious. There was definitely no 54d of damage like you are saying. Also, the lance was notably the most dangerous melee type weapon because it leveraged the horse's ST. Problem was you could only use it once in most combats because you have to wheel the horse around and charge again. Mostly you didn't use a lance but a hand held weapon which used your own ST stat.

In 4e it works on the speed/impact calls + lance damage and will usually end up a lot less than in 3e. I think lances are underpowered in 4e but haven't worried about fixing them because it hasn't come up yet.

GURPS was never rocket tag in fantasy type games, unless it was made that way by GM decisions. GURPS absolutely can be rocket tag in modern settings because gun fights with automatic rifles are extremely dangerous.

If I was going to run a cyberpunk game I would use GURPS. How I would counter the deadliness of weapons is by basically making longarms and hardshell body armour off limits in most places. So the characters can run around with pistols and high-tech knives, which don't do massive damage and are also decently countered with concealable armour. They have to plan carefully for the highly illegal activity of tooling up with rifles and full war armour, and then the armour helps counter the rifle damage.

Depending on the fluff, there are numerous other ways to reduce the lethality of gunfights, if that's what's required. A few ways are: using cinematic rules, making the mooks unskilled (if they fire full auto and never Aim like real life plebs do, they are not hitting much and will burn through ammo fast), mandatory Luck Advantage, mandatory 'hero points' to spend on re-rolls, high HT, Hard to Kill, extra HP, Unkillable, inbuilt body armour (cyberware can do all of these last 5 items BTW), some ablative HP etc. etc.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 03:33 AM
Pretty sure it was just plain GURPS. No e's. I mention nothing about any amout of d4's. And it doesn't matter if I remember dice and so forth correctly, because the point is: The damage was WAY WAY MORE than your highest possible HP. Even minimum possible damage would kill you unless you were in epic level armor with very high HP.

This is not a GURPS discussion.

Mr Beer
2017-11-03, 04:57 AM
Pretty sure it was just plain GURPS. No e's. I mention nothing about any amout of d4's. And it doesn't matter if I remember dice and so forth correctly, because the point is: The damage was WAY WAY MORE than your highest possible HP. Even minimum possible damage would kill you unless you were in epic level armor with very high HP.

1. 20 years ago was 3rd edition, i.e. 3e.

2. You said 3d+1d+5d x 6, which equals 54d6. Not sure if that's what you intended to say or not. I didn't mention d4s.

3. It's simply not true that a lance hit is or was auto-death in GURPS in the way that you state. I played GURPS for 20+ years, you say you glanced at the system. You are wrong.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 05:43 AM
1. 20 years ago was 3rd edition, i.e. 3e.

2. You said 3d+1d+5d x 6, which equals 54d6. Not sure if that's what you intended to say or not. I didn't mention d4s.

3. It's simply not true that a lance hit is or was auto-death in GURPS in the way that you state. I played GURPS for 20+ years, you say you glanced at the system. You are wrong.

This is not a GURPS discussion.

Mr Beer
2017-11-03, 05:50 AM
This is not a GURPS discussion.

You should have said that the first time, instead of arguing about GURPS and also saying 'we're not talking about GURPS' in the same post. How it works is you can either not talk about or talk about it, you don't get to talk about it and also say we're not talking about it.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 05:58 AM
This is also not a 'you get to decide that I want to talk about' discussion.

Can we stop this? Please. I quite honestly don't care enough about GURPS to discuss it. Your dedicated defense of a system I happen to not like quite as much is wasted on me. No offense.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-03, 06:08 AM
I quite honestly don't care enough about GURPS to discuss it.

Too late, somebody brought up GURPS, not this thread is dedicated to a discussion of the GURPS optional rules and what's required to make it work for a cyberpunk game.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 07:00 AM
Too late, somebody brought up GURPS, now this thread is dedicated to a discussion of the GURPS optional rules and what's required to make it work for a cyberpunk game.

Darn it!

From a system perspective, the meat and bones of 40k actually suit me fine: Simple, dependable, functional. It's just that everything is so limited, and specific, and Warhammer locked.

From a fluff perspective, I wouldn't mind Shadowrun. It's future fantasy, but having a staple stock of races and corporations and nations everyone knows already is good.

The ideal candidate would be sort of Film Noir, with fluff akin to Shadowrun (or none, I do my own anyways), and a system akin to Dark Heresy.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-03, 08:37 AM
There's always the option to homebrew a system. I'm in the position with Space Opera where the only game that does what I want it GURPS, and getting people to make characters for it is next to impossible, so I'm making a lighter system that does everything I want.

Yeah, I get entirely what you mean, although in my case it's wishing Eclipse Phase wasn't so complicated. Hoping to get Transhuman at some point so that character creation can be simpler, although I'm more likely to run Transhuman Space first (which I also love, I'm more of a postcyberpunk fan).

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 09:23 AM
I know exactly how I'd want a roleplaying game to function. All you need to do is live inside my head, and everything will be perfect.

It's the same reason I don't go into politics. I know how to solve everything, it just sort of hinges on getting rid of all the silly humans running around doing silly things they shouldn't be. My one redeeming quality is that I do realize that shaping the world to my whims relies almost entirely on things I don't approve of.

Sidetrack. But yea, homebrew: I'd want a game that was like:

- Define a number of skills you like
- Spread some points across those to build a character you like
- Combat will involve no dice

I can't imagine anyone but me would want to play that game =D

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-03, 10:02 AM
I know exactly how I'd want a roleplaying game to function. All you need to do is live inside my head, and everything will be perfect.

It's the same reason I don't go into politics. I know how to solve everything, it just sort of hinges on getting rid of all the silly humans running around doing silly things they shouldn't be. My one redeeming quality is that I do realize that shaping the world to my whims relies almost entirely on things I don't approve of.

Sidetrack. But yea, homebrew: I'd want a game that was like:

- Define a number of skills you like
- Spread some points across those to build a character you like
- Combat will involve no dice

I can't imagine anyone but me would want to play that game =D
The "combat with no dice" part is tricky. I was mulling it over recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540580-Non-random-RPG-brainstorming); I couldn't think of any way to do it that wasn't either highly abstract and predetermined, or highly gamist and rules-crunchy. Otherwise, that sounds kinda like Fudge, maybe?

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 10:20 AM
The "combat with no dice" part is tricky. I was mulling it over recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540580-Non-random-RPG-brainstorming); I couldn't think of any way to do it that wasn't either highly abstract and predetermined, or highly gamist and rules-crunchy. Otherwise, that sounds kinda like Fudge, maybe?

Maybe more like 'combat with hardly any dice'. Did you ever play Empires in Flames?

They had this system for large scale battles. You picked a formation, say phalanx or wedge or whatever, and the other guy picked one too. Defensive formations, offensive formations. Each had advantages and disadvantages.

Then you rolled a die. Bam.

That's not what I'm suggesting, of course. I'm suggesting players pick actions, and describe what they're trying to do - cinematic style, leaping over stuff, diving for cover, firing double pistols in bullettime.

Any action gets a bonus - or penalty - depending on opponents choices.

Roll dice. It either succeeds or fails, specific results determined by GM.

Dice are, in the end, optional. Could work without.

Jorren
2017-11-03, 12:48 PM
You could also look at Technoir. It has dice but it is a unique dice economy where extra dice go back and forth between the GM and the players.

It looks light but it might work for you.

Nifft
2017-11-03, 01:26 PM
I know exactly how I'd want a roleplaying game to function. All you need to do is live inside my head, and everything will be perfect.

It's the same reason I don't go into politics. I know how to solve everything, it just sort of hinges on getting rid of all the silly humans running around doing silly things they shouldn't be. My one redeeming quality is that I do realize that shaping the world to my whims relies almost entirely on things I don't approve of.

Sidetrack. But yea, homebrew: I'd want a game that was like:

- Define a number of skills you like
- Spread some points across those to build a character you like
- Combat will involve no dice

I can't imagine anyone but me would want to play that game =D

Combat without dice... I can't picture that.

How about combat with dice bidding, where a character can succeed at an action without rolling, but where sometimes a conflict requires that you actually roll.

Cortex+ has enough different types of dice for different types of character strengths; it'd be cool to see a bidding-war turn into a roll-off, with each die representing a different character trait being brought to bear on the problem. ("I'm not left-handed either!")

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 05:01 PM
Combat without dice... I can't picture that.

Sure you can. CCG's do it all the time.

I'm not saying 'make a CCG'. I'm just saying there are ways to do it. Say each player has a stack of tactical options, and a stack of offensive/defensive options. Play one of each, each round.

Any 'card' has an advantage and a disadvantage. Read the cards, maybe interpret fluff wise, determine outcome of the round.

Will the exact same model be more fun with light dice rolling? Quite possibly.


How about combat with dice bidding, where a character can succeed at an action without rolling, but where sometimes a conflict requires that you actually roll.

Cortex+ has enough different types of dice for different types of character strengths; it'd be cool to see a bidding-war turn into a roll-off, with each die representing a different character trait being brought to bear on the problem. ("I'm not left-handed either!")

But be a thing. It's not like I'm dice allergic or anything. It's more that .... often, combat is the most boring part of the game? That's obviously backwards, so I'm looking for a way to fix that. Whether that's achieved by removing dice is as yet undetermined.

Nifft
2017-11-03, 05:22 PM
Sure you can. CCG's do it all the time. A shuffled deck is just a different randomization algorithm. A freshly opened pack is a bunch of dice rolls, all pre-compiled and secret. There's a decent amount of randomization in a CCG.

So... you're technically right? You could replace dice rolling with draws from a deck of cards. But to me that's just avoiding the wording, while still obeying the spirit of my post: you're not avoiding randomness, you're just re-flavoring where you get it.


But be a thing. It's not like I'm dice allergic or anything. It's more that .... often, combat is the most boring part of the game? That's obviously backwards, so I'm looking for a way to fix that. Whether that's achieved by removing dice is as yet undetermined.

My usual inclination is to make combat about more than just combat.

As an example from Shadowrun: the PCs were basically forbidden from killing corporate security, because a murder would be too much heat for the gang they were in. So they had to find creative ways to humiliate & at worst non-lethally injure the CorpSec when a screw-up inevitably occurred, or when a chase scene went bad and they ended up in a firefight.

It became a lot more about using the environment than using a big-number weapon -- though the big-number weapons did show up, they were just more about intimidation than one-shot murder.

Deaths did happen, of course, but they tried hard to avoid casual murder and it made the game a lot more interesting.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-03, 05:45 PM
A shuffled deck is just a different randomization algorithm. A freshly opened pack is a bunch of dice rolls, all pre-compiled and secret. There's a decent amount of randomization in a CCG.

So... you're technically right? You could replace dice rolling with draws from a deck of cards. But to me that's just avoiding the wording, while still obeying the spirit of my post: you're not avoiding randomness, you're just re-flavoring where you get it.

You assume too much, sir :p

I didn't mean a draw system. A hand. Play your cards as you like. It's more comparable to abilities going on cooldown.

But of course, you're also right: Drawing would be like rolling. And you could propably combine it somehow. Characters might have set powers - hand cards - but also draw situationally.


My usual inclination is to make combat about more than just combat.

As an example from Shadowrun: the PCs were basically forbidden from killing corporate security, because a murder would be too much heat for the gang they were in. So they had to find creative ways to humiliate & at worst non-lethally injure the CorpSec when a screw-up inevitably occurred, or when a chase scene went bad and they ended up in a firefight.

It became a lot more about using the environment than using a big-number weapon -- though the big-number weapons did show up, they were just more about intimidation than one-shot murder.

Deaths did happen, of course, but they tried hard to avoid casual murder and it made the game a lot more interesting.

I agree. Honestly I think I spend too little time designing fights. Or I spend too much designing battlefields. I'm quite good at all the cinematic stuff, dramatic backdrops and stuff. I'm .... disgustingly horrid at all the math-y stuff.

Eldan
2017-11-03, 07:01 PM
You could do combat without dice. I mean, chess manages to have highly complex tactics without dice, so the design space exists. I'm just not aware of any system that has tried it with characters.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-03, 07:53 PM
You could do combat without dice. I mean, chess manages to have highly complex tactics without dice, so the design space exists. I'm just not aware of any system that has tried it with characters.
Besides substituting a different sort of randomness (ie, cards), there are systems out there that are based on bidding, like the old Marvel Universe RPG-- get your randomization through human interaction, rather than dice. If you move beyond that... you'd need a lot of tactical complexity, I think. Heavy emphasis on tactical movement and positioning, a bunch of special offensive and defensive moves, that sort of thing-- like 4e D&D, but even moreso, maybe.


I agree. Honestly I think I spend too little time designing fights. Or I spend too much designing battlefields. I'm quite good at all the cinematic stuff, dramatic backdrops and stuff. I'm .... disgustingly horrid at all the math-y stuff.
My homebrew game, STaRS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361270-STaRS-the-Simple-TAbletop-Roleplaying-System-5-0), might be up your ally, then? It's a rules-light system that tries to eliminate mechanical preparation. NPCs don't have stats, just GM-defined "challenge groups" that say "it's harder than normal to fight this guy in melee, but it's easier to threaten him."

RazorChain
2017-11-03, 10:09 PM
I'm not going to discuss Gurps or how you perceive it as it's obviously not the system you want. I have run good cyberpunk campaigns in Gurps.


Fuzion + the cyberpunk 2020 rulebooks work fine.

Nifft
2017-11-03, 10:13 PM
I'm not going to discuss Gurps or how you perceive it as it's obviously not the system you want. I have run good cyberpunk campaigns in Gurps

We should certainly refrain from discussing GURPS.

We should not mention that, since the OP was offering to provide pre-gens, which would eliminate 90% of the system complexity and shield the players from the actual difficult part of playing GURPS, that it would be a relatively painless learning exercise about rolling 3d6 instead of 1d20.

Yes. We should avoid that.

RazorChain
2017-11-03, 10:18 PM
I know exactly how I'd want a roleplaying game to function. All you need to do is live inside my head, and everything will be perfect.

It's the same reason I don't go into politics. I know how to solve everything, it just sort of hinges on getting rid of all the silly humans running around doing silly things they shouldn't be. My one redeeming quality is that I do realize that shaping the world to my whims relies almost entirely on things I don't approve of.

Sidetrack. But yea, homebrew: I'd want a game that was like:

- Define a number of skills you like
- Spread some points across those to build a character you like
- Combat will involve no dice

I can't imagine anyone but me would want to play that game =D


Well you could always look at systems like Prime Time Adventures or Theatrix where you define your character more than build it with points/stats.

The Glyphstone
2017-11-03, 11:53 PM
Darn it!

From a system perspective, the meat and bones of 40k actually suit me fine: Simple, dependable, functional. It's just that everything is so limited, and specific, and Warhammer locked.

From a fluff perspective, I wouldn't mind Shadowrun. It's future fantasy, but having a staple stock of races and corporations and nations everyone knows already is good.

The ideal candidate would be sort of Film Noir, with fluff akin to Shadowrun (or none, I do my own anyways), and a system akin to Dark Heresy.

What bits of Dark Heresy do you find too setting-specific, aside from the Psionics subsystem that makes every fight a roulette spin vs. TPK? Especially with the 2e rewrite moving from locked classes-in-all-but-name to the archetype-like Aptitudes, it seems to me like you could reskin it fairly easily into a more generic cyberpunk engine.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-04, 02:53 AM
What bits of Dark Heresy do you find too setting-specific, aside from the Psionics subsystem that makes every fight a roulette spin vs. TPK? Especially with the 2e rewrite moving from locked classes-in-all-but-name to the archetype-like Aptitudes, it seems to me like you could reskin it fairly easily into a more generic cyberpunk engine.

Well ... see, the book I have is locked classes in all but name.

But there is so much that's locked. Sure, you could rewrite all the social skills from Peer Noblility/Administratum/etc. to Peer Aztechnology/Ares/etc. You could come up with an entire ruleset for techpriests-that-are-not-techpriests, develop systems for developing and building tech, refluff or recreate the psionics system.

But it's not what I'd call easy, and the system seems to deeply discourage it.

As a sidenote, players seem - in my experience - to dislike 2e, and prefer 1e. Since I don't have the newer book, I don't know why =)


My homebrew game, STaRS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361270-STaRS-the-Simple-TAbletop-Roleplaying-System-5-0), might be up your ally, then? It's a rules-light system that tries to eliminate mechanical preparation. NPCs don't have stats, just GM-defined "challenge groups" that say "it's harder than normal to fight this guy in melee, but it's easier to threaten him."

I'll check it out, thanks =)


GURPS

For all that my experience with the system is quite dated, it just doesn't have a lot of appeal. To be honest, I think it's greatest drawback is that it's too generic :p

The Glyphstone
2017-11-04, 12:20 PM
Well ... see, the book I have is locked classes in all but name.

But there is so much that's locked. Sure, you could rewrite all the social skills from Peer Noblility/Administratum/etc. to Peer Aztechnology/Ares/etc. You could come up with an entire ruleset for techpriests-that-are-not-techpriests, develop systems for developing and building tech, refluff or recreate the psionics system.


The change was a divisive one. Some groups liked it, some hated it, very little overlap. As far as the other stuff...I don't see why you need to do any of those things, except the psionics rewrite if you wanted to be in Shadowrunverse. The existing rules for tech-priests amount to 'Roll a Tech Use check', so rename Tech Use to 'Hacking' or 'Computers' and you are 90% good to go. You do lose the Matrix Combat rules, but I haven't seen an edition of Shadowrun yet where people did not complain bitterly about Matrix mechanics being terrible, so I think that counts as a plus. :smallcool: Building and inventing new tech seems to be exactly the opposite of most cyberpunk, since innovation is exclusively the realm of the triple-AAA megacorps; that happens at the level of GM Plot.

Not trying to pick apart your objections, but it seems like you are overthinking it. Reskin the Social and Knowledge skills appropriately, rename a few things, then give everyone chromed mirrorshades in their starting equipment. 1e would probably actually work better for you than 2e on the gear front, since it uses Credits and money instead of the more nebulous Influence system they replaced it with in 2e. Even the plots and pregen adventures work with minimal conversion, just substituting 'Your Inquisitor gives you a mission' for 'The Johnson hires you for a job'. Chaos/Tyranid cultists become bug spirit cultists, etc.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, even psionics could be salvaged for a Shadowrun-esque game. Just let the entire Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp rules die in a fire, figure out a replacement as consequences for Pushing - my gut says Fatigue, as a analogue to Drain. Sustaining powers/spells translates over easily enough.

1337 b4k4
2017-11-04, 12:30 PM
I’ve heard good things about The Viel (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/199467) If you like PBtA systems I might be a good choice