Anyway to increase PaO hd limit?

[magicalmagicman]

Is there a way other than reserves of strength? Increasing the hd limit even by 1 is acceptable.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there a way other than reserves of strength? Increasing the hd limit even by 1 is acceptable.I believe there are 3rd party options, but to my knowledge, nothing 1st or 2nd party.

You would have to research a new spell for it.

[Eldariel]

The easiest is just using the reading that it has no HD limit. Other than that, yeah, I can't think of anything.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You might be able to use a hero/action point on casting it, if you use them in your campaign and your DM lets you.

But that's not exactly something you can rely on.

[Bronk]

The easiest is just using the reading that it has no HD limit. Other than that, yeah, I can't think of anything.

I agree... this spell doesn't have limits. It says it works like polymorph, 'except that it changes one object or creature into another'... then it doesn't list new limits.

The problem is that polymorph states that the target's form can't have more HD than the casters's caster level or the target's HD, whichever is lower. But PAO can turn objects without any HD into monsters with HD... it's all a mess.

If you're somehow stuck to the HD limit though, you can increase it a bit with the 'Reserves of Strength' feat.

[Zanos]

I'm pretty sure PaO doesn't have an HD limit, since it can turn objects that have no HD into creatures(pebble to human) or creatures with 1/2 HD into creatures with multiple HD(lizard to manticore).

[RoboEmperor]

I'm pretty sure PaO doesn't have an HD limit, since it can turn objects that have no HD into creatures(pebble to human) or creatures with 1/2 HD into creatures with multiple HD(lizard to manticore).

This is interesting. Please prove me wrong as I too love this spell.

1. This spell is exactly like polymorph except where noted.
2. It does not note new hd limitations
3. It does not note new 1hd/casterlevel limitations.
4. Therefore PaO has a 15hd cap, and is limited to 1hd/casterlevel, meaning if your CL is 14, 14hd is your limit.

Disregarding this argument means that PaO can turn a rock into a 100hd epic creature because as mentioned above PaO does not mention a 1hd/casterlevel limit.

[Bronk]

This is interesting. Please prove me wrong as I too love this spell.

1. This spell is exactly like polymorph except where noted.
2. It does not note new hd limitations
3. It does not note new 1hd/casterlevel limitations.
4. Therefore PaO has a 15hd cap, and is limited to 1hd/casterlevel, meaning if your CL is 14, 14hd is your limit.

Disregarding this argument means that PaO can turn a rock into a 100hd epic creature because as mentioned above PaO does not mention a 1hd/casterlevel limit.

As I mentioned above, your 1-3:

1: The spell is exactly like polymorph except where noted
2: It breaks the old HD limitations by allowing objects to be targets, silently removing the HD limit for the target
3: It does not note new HD limitations

So 4: There are no limitations anymore.

So, that's the line of thought there.

[RoboEmperor]

As I mentioned above, your 1-3:

1: The spell is exactly like polymorph except where noted
2: It breaks the old HD limitations by allowing objects to be targets, silently removing the HD limit for the target
3: It does not note new HD limitations

So 4: There are no limitations anymore.

So, that's the line of thought there.

So you really think I can PaO a rock into a Hecatoncheries at level 15 o_O?

[Ashtagon]

I believe there are 3rd party options, but to my knowledge, nothing 1st or 2nd party.

You would have to research a new spell for it.

There's ALWAYS a 2nd party way to do it :smallwink:

[zergling.exe]

So you really think I can PaO a rock into a Hecatoncheries at level 15 o_O?

I would assume the cap on CL would still be in place, since nothing contradicts that limit. Though it would be a spell that doesn't get any better as you level.

Looking back at the 3.0 polymorph spell line, none of them have HD limits. PaO even completely restates everything from polymorph self and polymorph other.

[animewatcha]

Can't remember where it was, but Reserves of Strength feat removes level limits.

[zergling.exe]

Can't remember where it was, but Reserves of Strength feat removes level limits.

If you had read the first post before responding you would see RoS has been taken into account already...

Is it that hard for people to read the OP? This happens way too much.

[Anthrowhale]

The target HD limit of Polymorph is min(15, source HD, caster level). The PAO rules eliminate the source HD limit but they don't explicitly touch the other limits.

You could treat all the limits as one limit and then assume there are no limits given that the unified limit is violated when the source HD constraint is active. Nevertheless, I think it's saner to treat this as 3 different limits and eliminate the violated one so you have min(15, caster level) as the constraint on target HD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The PAO rules explicitly eliminate the source HD limitI think they imply via examples rather than...exply? Is that a word?

[Anthrowhale]

I think they imply via examples rather than...exply? Is that a word?

You're right. Either way, the only consistent reading eliminates the source HD restriction.

[Zanos]

So you really think I can PaO a rock into a Hecatoncheries at level 15 o_O?
It would be kind of terrible, since none of the polymorph spells actually increase HD or give any special abilities.

[RoboEmperor]

It would be kind of terrible, since none of the polymorph spells actually increase HD or give any special abilities.

100 attacks a round at +73 attack and 2d6+20 damage each, I say it's good enough even if it doesn't have any special qualities. Is Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex) a special attack?

In anycase though PaO is abusive enough without adding ludicrously powerful beatsticks into its repertoire.

I think it's a stretch to say PaO's hd limit is removed. I agree with Anthrowhale.

[Bronk]

So you really think I can PaO a rock into a Hecatoncheries at level 15 o_O?

Well, no. PAO retains the limits on available forms from polymorph, and Outsider isn't on the list (unless the target was already an outsider).

Also, PAO retains the limits on size from polymorph, which retains the limits from alter self, which have a size cap of 'large', while the hecatoncheires is huge.

In a real game though? If it ever came up, I'd probably enforce the 15HD limit, even though the rules are terribly worded.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, no. PAO retains the limits on available forms from polymorph, and Outsider isn't on the list (unless the target was already an outsider).

Also, PAO retains the limits on size from polymorph, which retains the limits from alter self, which have a size cap of 'large', while the hecatoncheires is huge.

In a real game though? If it ever came up, I'd probably enforce the 15HD limit, even though the rules are terribly worded.

Size limits are eliminated by the Shrew (fine presumably) to Manticore (large) example.

[ksbsnowowl]

Looking back at the 3.0 polymorph spell line, none of them have HD limits. PaO even completely restates everything from polymorph self and polymorph other.

Yes they do.

The Polymorph Other (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcerers--51/polymorph-other--3421/) update in Tome and Blood states:

Polymorph Other

Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4, Spellthief 4,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (and see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Polymorph other changes the subject into another form of creature.

The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subject's normal form, and can have no more Hit Dice than you have, or that the subject has (whichever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 Hit Dice.

You cannot change subjects into constructs, elementals, outsiders, or undead unless they already are one of these types.

...

Note: This version of the spell is now official and supersedes the version presented in the Player's Handbook.

[Bronk]

Size limits are eliminated by the Shrew (fine presumably) to Manticore (large) example.

Good call... PAO really has a jumbled wreck of a spell description.

In fact, those tables are another part of the spell that could use some work... According to the 'same size' line, the shrew-to-manticore and the manticore-to-shrew examples should have the same duration of 1 week... it should really read 'same size or smaller'.

[Anthrowhale]

Good call... PAO really has a jumbled wreck of a spell description.

In fact, those tables are another part of the spell that could use some work... According to the 'same size' line, the shrew-to-manticore and the manticore-to-shrew examples should have the same duration of 1 week... it should really read 'same size or smaller'.

I always assumed that the Manticore-to-Shrew was permanent because "same or lower intelligence" came into play.

[zergling.exe]

Yes they do.

The Polymorph Other (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcerers--51/polymorph-other--3421/) update in Tome and Blood states:

I don't have any of the 3.0 books, so I only have the SRD to go off of. And they don't have HD limits there. But thanks for pointing it out in a most derisive way.