ToA yuanti ritual question regarding AL(spoilers)

[AttilatheYeon]

Is the transformation ritual Adventures League legal? Will i still be able to play my character if i go through with the ritual?

Thanks for all responses

[Chugger]

It's part of their hardcover thing - I' mean AL is linked to the people who did that book, right? I would assume so. But I am assuming. I've heard people at my AL group talk about it, and yes I think you actually get to alter your race and keep playing it.

[War_lord]

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/ToAPrimerv1.pdf

A character that is a member of any faction other than the Lords’ Alliance (the only faction that permits yuan-ti) that accepts Fenthaza’s offer of transformation is removed from their faction; they immediately lose all ranks and renown with their previous faction, and must start at the lowest rank of the Lords’ Alliance with zero renown. In addition, they gain the following story award: Enmity of the <Former Faction>. You have betrayed your former faction for the promise of profane power. Any Charisma checks made to influence members of your former faction are made with disadvantage.

You also don't become Yuan-ti, you get a bunch of traits. So yes, you can become an insane snakeperson. Just don't mess with the pet NPC:

Some characters may be tempted to claim ownership of the Ring of Winter and Artus’s prized dagger, Bookmark. As Artus is completely unwilling to surrender these items voluntarily, characters must use force or magic to obtain them. Given Artus’s importance in Faerûn, this spells the end of an adventuring hero’s career. Characters involved in facilitating the theft of Bookmark or the Ring of Winter are permanently and irrevocably retired from Adventurers League play—Some crimes are beyond forgiveness.

[Kintar]

And considering there is already a severe lack of magic items in the hard cover, I find it completely stupid to place that NPC/those items in and then punish the player of they “acquire” them.

[War_lord]

"Here's this NPC who's walking around with a legendary magic dagger and an artifact ring, if you do anything to him, your character is forfeit"

WHY GIVE PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO THEN.

I mean, this is a great example of what's wrong with FR, metaplot and protected NPCs.

[NecroDancer]

"Here's this NPC who's walking around with a legendary magic dagger and an artifact ring, if you do anything to him, your character is forfeit"

WHY GIVE PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO THEN.

I mean, this is a great example of what's wrong with FR, metaplot and protected NPCs.

What happens if Artus dies from an enemy NPC? Are the adventures suppose to just ignore the powerful magic items that are now ownerless? Are the PC's suppose to think "gee, that evil ring is powerful and can posses people, let's make sure to leave it safely on this dead body".

[HolyDraconus]

What happens if Artus dies from an enemy NPC? Are the adventures suppose to just ignore the powerful magic items that are now ownerless? Are the PC's suppose to think "gee, that evil ring is powerful and can posses people, let's make sure to leave it safely on this dead body".

Artus and Dragonbait can duo 90% of threats in the hardcover. The few things they can't tank they aren't supposed to be directly dealing with anyway, namely, the soulmonger. It's not an accident for either to die. Sorry. And yes. FR super plot armor dmpc bs is at work.

[Eunostus]

You also don't become Yuan-ti, you get a bunch of traits. So yes, you can become an insane snakeperson.
Just curious... What traits do you get for completing the ritual? (I'm playing a Yuanti Warlock/Bard in a homebrew campaign who's ambition is to become 'perfect', in other words: become more snake-like and eventually a Yuan-Ti anathema)

[War_lord]

What happens if Artus dies from an enemy NPC? Are the adventures suppose to just ignore the powerful magic items that are now ownerless? Are the PC's suppose to think "gee, that evil ring is powerful and can posses people, let's make sure to leave it safely on this dead body".

Artus is CR7, and has a Longbow and the Bookmark (+3 dagger), gets 3 attacks a turn and his lowest attribute is a 10 in strength. He's running around with the Saurial Dragonbait, who can auto detect the alignment of anyone within 60 feet of him (So if your character is the type to try anything, he already knows) and carries a Holy Avenger. Oh, and you're basically encouraged to have the two accompany the party through at least part of the adventure. Thankfully no one I play with is a reader of awful genre fiction.


Just curious... What traits do you get for completing the ritual? (I'm playing a Yuanti Warlock/Bard in a homebrew campaign who's ambition is to become 'perfect', in other words: become more snake-like and eventually a Yuan-Ti anathema)

Poison immunity, magic resistance, 60 feet of Darkvision, Poison spray cantrip, unlimited innate animal friendship (snakes only) and Suggestion once per long rest after level 3. Oh, and 1d6 levels of exhaustion (so there's a 1 in 6 chance you die during the ritual, and you're probably out of action for a few days) and one form of indefinite madness (could be bad depending on what it is and how strict your DM holds you to it). Honestly, in a home game where I'm the DM, I'd just have it be a race change. The version in the book seems to be an AL compromise.

[Eunostus]

Poison immunity, magic resistance, 60 feet of Darkvision, Poison spray cantrip, unlimited innate animal friendship (snakes only) and Suggestion once per long rest after level 3. Oh, and 1d6 levels of exhaustion (so there's a 1 in 6 chance you die during the ritual, and you're probably out of action for a few days) and one form of indefinite madness (could be bad depending on what it is and how strict your DM holds you to it). Honestly, in a home game where I'm the DM, I'd just have it be a race change. The version in the book seems to be an AL compromise.
So... Pretty much detrimental if you're already a Yuan-Ti Pureblood. What a shame. I was hoping to get some inspiration to pass onto my DM. Haven't gotten any more snake-like despite repeated pleas to Demogorgon and crafting a Yuan-Ti soulbag

[HolyDraconus]

So... Pretty much detrimental if you're already a Yuan-Ti Pureblood. What a shame. I was hoping to get some inspiration to pass onto my DM. Haven't gotten any more snake-like despite repeated pleas to Demogorgon and crafting a Yuan-Ti soulbag

However, it DOES allow you to run a variant human and still get the bonuses of a race. On top of that, in AL, it's one of the only ways to play a Volo race and still get swashbuckler, or anything in Xanthars

[Rogerdodger557]

And considering there is already a severe lack of magic items in the hard cover, I find it completely stupid to place that NPC/those items in and then punish the player of they “acquire” them.


"Here's this NPC who's walking around with a legendary magic dagger and an artifact ring, if you do anything to him, your character is forfeit"

WHY GIVE PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO THEN.

I mean, this is a great example of what's wrong with FR, metaplot and protected NPCs.

It's not magic items they don't want players to have. It's the artifacts. Acererack's Staff of the Forgotten One is the same thing. They applied the same ruling to the throne from Strom King's Thunder. And the reason you don't get to play your character if you get your hands on Artus' dagger is because it is an item iconic to him. People will assume you killed him, and try and punish you for it. There is a difference between not giving out magic items, and not giving out artifacts.

[PeteNutButter]

Poison immunity, magic resistance, 60 feet of Darkvision, Poison spray cantrip, unlimited innate animal friendship (snakes only) and Suggestion once per long rest after level 3. Oh, and 1d6 levels of exhaustion (so there's a 1 in 6 chance you die during the ritual, and you're probably out of action for a few days) and one form of indefinite madness (could be bad depending on what it is and how strict your DM holds you to it). Honestly, in a home game where I'm the DM, I'd just have it be a race change. The version in the book seems to be an AL compromise.

That's really strong for anyone else... I'll do it whenever I get to it... Sign me up!

[War_lord]

So the pet NPC is so loved that you're assumed to be torn apart by a mob for having crossed them.

[Rogerdodger557]

So the pet NPC is so loved that you're assumed to be torn apart by a mob for having crossed them.

Not loved, just well known, and with powerful friends. One of the NPCs you meet in SKT is an archmage, who happens to be best friends with Artus; not to mention all the other people he has known throughout his life. And there is also the fact that the ring is a sentient, evil item. I can, and will, try to corrupt your character. It's the same reason you can't keep Whelm, Wave, or the sword from White Plume Mountain. You will be chased down by the factions until you hand them over.

[War_lord]

Not loved, just well known, and with powerful friends. One of the NPCs you meet in SKT is an archmage, who happens to be best friends with Artus; not to mention all the other people he has known throughout his life. And there is also the fact that the ring is a sentient, evil item. I can, and will, try to corrupt your character. It's the same reason you can't keep Whelm, Wave, or the sword from White Plume Mountain. You will be chased down by the factions until you hand them over.

...I'm not sure if you're actually trying to argue against my assertion that FR is an overwritten setting.

[Rogerdodger557]

...I'm not sure if you're actually trying to argue against my assertion that FR is an overwritten setting.

What I'm saying is that there is a reason you do not get to play your character in AL if you take his stuff, and if you don't like that, then don't play AL

[War_lord]

What I'm saying is that there is a reason you do not get to play your character in AL if you take his stuff, and if you don't like that, then don't play AL

I don't play AL, I wouldn't have the patience for that crap.

[HolyDraconus]

It's the same reason you can't keep Whelm, Wave, or the sword from White Plume Mountain. You will be chased down by the factions until you hand them over.
.... not exactly. You can give those back and your character can come out of retirement once you do... you cant bring back a character that took or PLOTTED to take BookMark or The Ring of Winter. That is permanent ban on that character. And yes, I did say plot. Read it. You don't even have to be the one to take the bloody things and can be banned on it.

[War_lord]

It was facilitating, so if you're at the same table as something who does it, and you don't stop them, you're banned too.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't play AL, I wouldn't have the patience for that crap.

I think people misunderstand the reasons for rules like this. It is largely to protect from DMs cheating the system (or just being bad DMs) and allowing their friends to get items far beyond what they should have for their level.

In practice if these things come up, I’m sure most DMs let the party know “if you do this your character is perma-banned from AL so let’s get on with the adventure and not some CE murder antics.”

They just don’t want some low level PC showing up at a convention and ruining the event for their party because they have items that they shouldn’t have.

[HolyDraconus]

I think people misunderstand the reasons for rules like this. It is largely to protect from DMs cheating the system (or just being bad DMs) and allowing their friends to get items far beyond what they should have for their level.

In practice if these things come up, I’m sure most DMs let the party know “if you do this your character is perma-banned from AL so let’s get on with the adventure and not some CE murder antics.”

They just don’t want some low level PC showing up at a convention and ruining the event for their party because they have items that they shouldn’t have.

True, but you don't have to kill either to take them from him. Why is he even there?

[War_lord]

True, but you don't have to kill either to take them from him. Why is he even there?

Author of the Ring of Winter novel is also the author of much of Chult's modern lore. Shared story consultant credit on ToA with Pendleton Ward.

Author's pet DMPC.

[Kintar]

Poor reason for him to be present.

I was really looking forward to ToA and the death curse, but everything just seems so poorly devised within the confines of AL rules. Death curse effects you until you play a tier 3 adventure by any of your chars? Stupid. Hardcover lacks magic items befitting a 1-11 hard mode campaign, and the few that are there disappear when you leave the last dungeon? Stupid. We insert an authors glorified dmpc into the story and permanently penalize you if you end up with his gear? Stupid.

[PeteNutButter]

True, but you don't have to kill either to take them from him. Why is he even there?

Well if you steal from a high level plot armored NPC, I'd imagine he'd find out and a fight would ensue... Which means either you die or end up murdering...

At any rate, he should definitely not be there. I hate DMNPCs for like so many reasons.

[Scathain]

Poor reason for him to be present.

I was really looking forward to ToA and the death curse, but everything just seems so poorly devised within the confines of AL rules. Death curse effects you until you play a tier 3 adventure by any of your chars? Stupid. Hardcover lacks magic items befitting a 1-11 hard mode campaign, and the few that are there disappear when you leave the last dungeon? Stupid. We insert an authors glorified dmpc into the story and permanently penalize you if you end up with his gear? Stupid.

I think this is unecessarily harsh. Artus and Dragonbait are simply NPC’s, fellow characters sharing in the story. Just because they have gear that the party can’t have (BECAUSE OF BALANCE REASONS) doesn’t make them “the author’s glorified DMPC”.

I don’t play AL, I play home games. I’m not gonna ban my players if they claim the Ring of Winter. If you are also playing a home game it doesn’t matter.

[HolyDraconus]

They are literally only there to troll. One of the "encounters" for the two is them running from a trex.... nevermind the fact that either can solo The damn thing in 5 turns or less. They have a quest, that is supposed to be integral to their very being, and both can flat out skip out on the death curse, yet they will drop everything to help you. Like wtf?

[Kintar]

I think this is unecessarily harsh. Artus and Dragonbait are simply NPC’s, fellow characters sharing in the story. Just because they have gear that the party can’t have (BECAUSE OF BALANCE REASONS) doesn’t make them “the author’s glorified DMPC”.

I don’t play AL, I play home games. I’m not gonna ban my players if they claim the Ring of Winter. If you are also playing a home game it doesn’t matter.

That’s great! And if I were running this HC for my home game, I too would make a host of changes to make it better. But this is about how things in the Hardcover interact and are affected by AL rules.

[Scathain]

That’s great! And if I were running this HC for my home game, I too would make a host of changes to make it better. But this is about how things in the Hardcover interact and are affected by AL rules.

If the DM plays them as spotlight hogging *******s, that’s the DM’s problem, not the module. I just feel that this forum’s tendency to dislike Faerun oversaturation (and hey, I’m with ya!) overshadows the things they get right.

All I’m saying is I see no reason to immediately call “Mary sue!!!” when a trademarked character from the setting makes an appearance, especially if their only offense is having a McGuffin or two.

[AttilatheYeon]

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/ToAPrimerv1.pdf

A character that is a member of any faction other than the Lords’ Alliance (the only faction that permits yuan-ti) that accepts Fenthaza’s offer of transformation is removed from their faction; they immediately lose all ranks and renown with their previous faction, and must start at the lowest rank of the Lords’ Alliance with zero renown. In addition, they gain the following story award: Enmity of the <Former Faction>. You have betrayed your former faction for the promise of profane power. Any Charisma checks made to influence members of your former faction are made with disadvantage.

You also don't become Yuan-ti, you get a bunch of traits. So yes, you can become an insane snakeperson. Just don't mess with the pet NPC:

Some characters may be tempted to claim ownership of the Ring of Winter and Artus’s prized dagger, Bookmark. As Artus is completely unwilling to surrender these items voluntarily, characters must use force or magic to obtain them. Given Artus’s importance in Faerûn, this spells the end of an adventuring hero’s career. Characters involved in facilitating the theft of Bookmark or the Ring of Winter are permanently and irrevocably retired from Adventurers League play—Some crimes are beyond forgiveness.

Thanks for this. I was looking in the wrong document. 😉

[Provo]

I don't get everybody's anger over these NPCs. A lot of people enjoy seeing characters they know show up in game. For those that don't love it, it shouldn't matter. This is just a cameo. It doesn't need to affect your game.

If your only concern is the items, then you sound like a toxic player. Do you randomly murder shopkeepers and tavern owners in AL to avoid paying? No? I would expect you to avoid murdering other beneficial NPCs as well.

[War_lord]

I don't get everybody's anger over these NPCs. A lot of people enjoy seeing characters they know show up in game. For those that don't love it, it shouldn't matter. This is just a cameo. It doesn't need to affect your game.

It's really not just a cameo, they immediately want to join with the PC's if the quest is mentioned, and their power outstrips that of the party due to the need to plot armor them. At least when Elminister showed up in CoS he was A. insane and B, under a mind blank, so his presence was essentially an Easter egg.


If your only concern is the items, then you sound like a toxic player. Do you randomly murder shopkeepers and tavern owners in AL to avoid paying? No? I would expect you to avoid murdering other beneficial NPCs as well.

It doesn't say "don't murder him" it says don't "facilitate" the theft of the items. That's a much wider law then "don't stab people", and what he have an issue with is the hijack of my group's adventure by characters from Young Adult novels. Shopkeepers don't carry around insanely powerful magic items and kill the groups enemies for them. Why doesn't Artus solo the whole adventure? He's far more qualified then the players can hope to be. He doesn't help because he has a personal motivation, he's just wandering around Chult already and decides to tag along because he has no idea what to do next in his personal quest.

Breaks all the RPG writing rules.

[Kintar]

I don't get everybody's anger over these NPCs. A lot of people enjoy seeing characters they know show up in game. For those that don't love it, it shouldn't matter. This is just a cameo. It doesn't need to affect your game.

If your only concern is the items, then you sound like a toxic player. Do you randomly murder shopkeepers and tavern owners in AL to avoid paying? No? I would expect you to avoid murdering other beneficial NPCs as well.

Like War Lord said, it’s more than just a cameo. Also, for me, it’s not even that a “big name” makes an appearance. It’s that the adventure is supposed to be about how your group saves the day, but as they scratch to survive with barely a magic item found between the whole group, here comes two DMPCs that waltz in with a !SPOILER! Holy Avenger, Bookmark, and Ring of winter, and could completely overshadow what the group is struggling to do.

Look at Out of the Abyss. To me, that was a great campaign and there the pc could get a sun blade amongst other good stuff before they even made it to gauntlgrym. The story doesn’t have Drizzt drop in just happy to tag along soloing demon princes while you struggle to find fungus to eat.

And no, I’m not mad I can’t kill the NPCs. I’m mad that, in AL terms, if you start a new char for this adventure, you will barely get any items, not because I’m cool loots guy, but because when they alter undead like wights and others to have their life drain to not go away when you rest, without changing the cr of the creature to reflect this new deadliness, and these things are resistant to your normal weapons, it badly schews the session. And then to have that nullified by some OOC bs like, hey you had a character sometime play in a tier 3 adventure so all your chars are immune to the death curse, is just insane.

[Scathain]

Like War Lord said, it’s more than just a cameo. Also, for me, it’s not even that a “big name” makes an appearance. It’s that the adventure is supposed to be about how your group saves the day, but as they scratch to survive with barely a magic item found between the whole group, here comes two DMPCs that waltz in with a !SPOILER! Holy Avenger, Bookmark, and Ring of winter, and could completely overshadow what the group is struggling to do.

Look at Out of the Abyss. To me, that was a great campaign and there the pc could get a sun blade amongst other good stuff before they even made it to gauntlgrym. The story doesn’t have Drizzt drop in just happy to tag along soloing demon princes while you struggle to find fungus to eat.

And no, I’m not mad I can’t kill the NPCs. I’m mad that, in AL terms, if you start a new char for this adventure, you will barely get any items, not because I’m cool loots guy, but because when they alter undead like wights and others to have their life drain to not go away when you rest, without changing the cr of the creature to reflect this new deadliness, and these things are resistant to your normal weapons, it badly schews the session. And then to have that nullified by some OOC bs like, hey you had a character sometime play in a tier 3 adventure so all your chars are immune to the death curse, is just insane.

I’m still struggling to see what exactly it is about the two that piss you off. Now you’re mad because the module is punishing, but seemingly not to these two specific NPC’s? Who cares? “Why don’t they solo the adventure” because this isn’t the dreaded “teen novel” mentioned earlier, it’s an adventure module designed for the players to be at the lead. And one more time for the people in the back, IF YOU DONT WANT TO DM THEM AS SPOTLIGHT HOGGY, DON’T.

[Kintar]

Scathain, you are struggling to understand what is being talked about here because you do not play under AL rules. You play home games where the DM can and does make changes to better facilitate the group fun. What I am talking about has little to do with the actual characters of Dragonbait and Artus Cimber. If you would take a moment and read what is being discussed, it’s that ToA as written, does not mesh well with AL rules, and the way WOTC deals with it is silly work arounds.

The start of this thread is “hey if I do the ritual, will I become a yuan-ti and be able to continue to play in AL”. Answer should be yes you become a yuan-ti and yes you can still play, however because WOTC doesn’t want allow yuan-ti player races yet, they alter it.

That then led into the “don’t commit the inforgivable sin of acquiring or even conspiring to acquire the ‘golden apples’ we sprinkled into the adventure or you will lose that character forever” statement. First, that’s stupid but people say “hey I don’t want people showing up to conventions with artifacts of famous characters”. Ok, easy enough, just make those items not convention playable. Done.

But I argue that the adventure was poorly planned comparative to other hard cover adventures as they made it artificially hard and then threw those named characters as a potential fix.

I wanted ToA to be hard. I don’t think it went far enough. I think “meat grinder mode” should be the new non-optional normal, I like that the life drain effect doesn’t go away after a long rest. However, It’s silly that per AL rules if you have a char that has played a tier 3 adventure all your characters are immune to the curse. That’s an OOC resultion to an in game problem and it has nothing to do with if you successfully defeated the last tomb.

You write your posts as though I’m raging mad about “Mary sues” or “teen novels” but I’m not. I haven’t died, haven’t lost a group member, haven’t been outshined by Dragonbait. It does not mean I can’t express disappointment with an adventure that I felt, in comparison with other really well done adventures, missed the mark. And because the rules and nuances of AL exasperate the flaws of ToA, I’m disappointed with their poorly executed out of character solutions to situations that might come up as players delve into this adventure.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you don't want an NPC to die, don't put them in a position where the PCs might reasonably want to kill them.

If you don't want the PCs to have some item or whatever, don't put it where they can get their hands on it.

And saying...

"Some characters may be tempted to claim ownership of the Ring of Winter and Artus’s prized dagger, Bookmark. As Artus is completely unwilling to surrender these items voluntarily, characters must use force or magic to obtain them. Given Artus’s importance in Faerûn, this spells the end of an adventuring hero’s career. Characters involved in facilitating the theft of Bookmark or the Ring of Winter are permanently and irrevocably retired from Adventurers League play—Some crimes are beyond forgiveness."

...is pathetic game design and pathetic world design. Hurting an important NPC or taking an important/powerful item is not an "unforgivable crime", it's just a "crime" against the setting designers' pet character or preferred outcome. "Oh you horrible person how dare you taint my perfect little setting." If you don't want players to interact with your setting, go write a book or make a movie, and stay away from RPGs, tabletop or computer.

That sort of statement is just crass, naked railroading of the worst sort.

[Kintar]

If you don't want an NPC to die, don't put them in a position where the PCs might reasonably want to kill them.

If you don't want the PCs to have some item or whatever, don't put it where they can get their hands on it.

And saying...

"Some characters may be tempted to claim ownership of the Ring of Winter and Artus’s prized dagger, Bookmark. As Artus is completely unwilling to surrender these items voluntarily, characters must use force or magic to obtain them. Given Artus’s importance in Faerûn, this spells the end of an adventuring hero’s career. Characters involved in facilitating the theft of Bookmark or the Ring of Winter are permanently and irrevocably retired from Adventurers League play—Some crimes are beyond forgiveness."

...is pathetic game design and pathetic world design. Hurting an important NPC or taking an important/powerful item is not an "unforgivable crime", it's just a "crime" against the setting designers' pet character or preferred outcome. "Oh you horrible person how dare you taint my perfect little setting." If you don't want players to interact with your setting, go write a book or make a movie, and stay away from RPGs, tabletop or computer.

That sort of statement is just crass, naked railroading of the worst sort.

Very well said

[Unoriginal]

Because robbing someone who has a lot of clout should have no consequence, eh?

[Kintar]

Why do people keep jumping to the assumption anybody wants to kill or steal from these particular chars. If this game is truly not meant to be railroaded, and the dm at the table introduces and has these two to travel with the party, What are you to do if Dragonbait dies to an undead ogrilion but the party’s Paladin survives? Just stare at the now ownerless holy avenger and then say, well the OOC gods never meant for him to die, but now that he has, (and despite the fact I still have a lich to face as well as numerous other undead),I will stick with my non magical long sword and Mail this holy avenger to his next of kin that I know nothing about?”

[ZorroGames]

Not that thrilled with ToA (first campaign in 5e and AL to boot) but Sweet Lord People, just don’t play it if you find it thst objectionable.

Off to another thread.

[Unoriginal]

Why do people keep jumping to the assumption anybody wants to kill or steal from these particular chars. If this game is truly not meant to be railroaded, and the dm at the table introduces and has these two to travel with the party, What are you to do if Dragonbait dies to an undead ogrilion but the party’s Paladin survives? Just stare at the now ownerless holy avenger and then say, well the OOC gods never meant for him to die, but now that he has, (and despite the fact I still have a lich to face as well as numerous other undead),I will stick with my non magical long sword and Mail this holy avenger to his next of kin that I know nothing about?”

Only killing them or stealing their items has consequences.

The module doesn't say "if you touch that item you're banned!!!!! Shame! Shame!", it says "if your PC take this item by force or by stealing it, or help other doing so, they can't continue an adventuring career."

If Dragonbait dies fighting monsters and you take his equipment, then it's not theft nor taking the item by force.

And to the question "but why am I not allowed to keep the Holy Avenger for the next aventure?!?", well, I would assume that someone worthy of an Holy Avenger would have raised Dragonbait from the dead once the curse is lifted, and gave him his sword back.

[Max_Killjoy]

Because robbing someone who has a lot of clout should have no consequence, eh?

Where did someone make the assertion that one character robbing another character should have no consequences?

I didn't, and if someone else did, I missed it.


The quote in question isn't talking about in-setting, in-character effects, complications, or consequences.

It's talking about kicking the character out of the campaign because the person writing the campaign didn't like what the character did -- it's intended to punish the player for making an "incorrect" meta decision.

Here it is again:

"Some characters may be tempted to claim ownership of the Ring of Winter and Artus’s prized dagger, Bookmark. As Artus is completely unwilling to surrender these items voluntarily, characters must use force or magic to obtain them. Given Artus’s importance in Faerûn, this spells the end of an adventuring hero’s career. Characters involved in facilitating the theft of Bookmark or the Ring of Winter are permanently and irrevocably retired from Adventurers League play—Some crimes are beyond forgiveness."


The supposed "crime" here is purely meta, purely an offense against the fragile notions of how the established setting should be. Again, if you don't want players "ruining" your "perfect" setting, then don't expose it to players, go write a book or make a movie. We see this all the time in video games -- they're not being made as video games, they're being made as outlets for frustrated would-be novelists who want to shanghai an audience for their precious story.

[EKruze]

The Ring of Winter is an Evil artifact with apocalyptic power. It has the potential to effectively bring about an ice age and it specifically corrupts its wearer. Removing this ring from its present owner is a world-altering action.

There's no rule saying that if your group somehow acquires the Ring of Winter that you cannot continue to play with it in your private home game, that would be ridiculous. Adventurer's League is a shared setting though and this rule is in place so that if someone does cause this to happen that they cannot turn around and bring such a setting-altering item into another game.

Without this rule you can be certain that at the next convention there would be someone, perhaps multiple someones, who claim to have obtained the Ring legitimately and intend to play with it at the table. There's a certain social contract inherent to DDAL play and claiming the Ring of Winter and bringing it to tables with other people violates that. Perhaps this rule breaks some of the immersion for the sparse few groups who might acquire it through legitimate, non-CE ways, but it preserves the play environment of the overwhelming majority of groups.

This is a good rule.

[Max_Killjoy]

The Ring of Winter is an Evil artifact with apocalyptic power. It has the potential to effectively bring about an ice age and it specifically corrupts its wearer. Removing this ring from its present owner is a world-altering action.

There's no rule saying that if your group somehow acquires the Ring of Winter that you cannot continue to play with it in your private home game, that would be ridiculous. Adventurer's League is a shared setting though and this rule is in place so that if someone does cause this to happen that they cannot turn around and bring such a setting-altering item into another game.

Without this rule you can be certain that at the next convention there would be someone, perhaps multiple someones, who claim to have obtained the Ring legitimately and intend to play with it at the table. There's a certain social contract inherent to DDAL play and claiming the Ring of Winter and bringing it to tables with other people violates that. Perhaps this rule breaks some of the immersion for the sparse few groups who might acquire it through legitimate, non-CE ways, but it preserves the play environment of the overwhelming majority of groups.

This is a good rule.

Better idea -- don't even put objects like that in reach of the PCs in a shared universe.

[War_lord]

Then don't put the damn ring in the adventure, it doesn't even need to be there, Artus doesn't need to be there. It's a problem created purely by author circle jerk.

It's a bad rule. Putting a powerful DMPC in the game, giving them magic items better then anything the players have, and then should the player acquire those items, punish them not with in game consequences, but a mechanical ban on that character. That's the stuff of DM horror stories, not something WoTC should be actively encouraging.

[Max_Killjoy]

Then don't put the damn ring in the adventure, it doesn't even need to be there, Artus doesn't need to be there. It's a problem created purely by author circle jerk.

It's a bad rule. Putting a powerful DMPC in the game, giving them magic items better then anything the players have, and then should the player acquire those items, punish them not with in game consequences, but a mechanical ban on that character. That's the stuff of DM horror stories, not something WoTC should be actively encouraging.


Well said.

[Boxybrown]

Sense this has become a bit of a toa mash up if pc's could find a way to save soulmonger has its use been explicitly banned?

[Zene]

So it's totally AL legal, with the restrictions people have pointed out on factions and races.

However, as has become apparent in the AL facebook group, if you take it, expect a lot of DMs and players to give you the stinkeye. To get the benefit of the ritual, you have to
knowingly bathe in the blood of human sacrifices
and AL doesn't allow CE or NE characters. LE is allowed, but the L part is kinda hard to justify. And your whole party went along with it? Really stretches the limits of credulity. Several AL DMs in the FB group have said any players that took it, they would consider CE or NE, and would consider their character not AL-playable.

Personally, I think alignment is a pointless construct for the most part; and if it needs to exist, it should be determined by your character's actions, not the other way around. I also think the alignment restrictions in AL are even more pointless. So I don't agree with these folks, and anyone that showing up with it at my table would be no problem. But just wanted to give y'all a heads-up that not everyone feels that way.

[Keravath]

So it's totally AL legal, with the restrictions people have pointed out on factions and races.

However, as has become apparent in the AL facebook group, if you take it, expect a lot of DMs and players to give you the stinkeye. To get the benefit of the ritual, you have to
knowingly bathe in the blood of human sacrifices
and AL doesn't allow CE or NE characters. LE is allowed, but the L part is kinda hard to justify. And your whole party went along with it? Really stretches the limits of credulity. Several AL DMs in the FB group have said any players that took it, they would consider CE or NE, and would consider their character not AL-playable.

Personally, I think alignment is a pointless construct for the most part; and if it needs to exist, it should be determined by your character's actions, not the other way around. I also think the alignment restrictions in AL are even more pointless. So I don't agree with these folks, and anyone that showing up with it at my table would be no problem. But just wanted to give y'all a heads-up that not everyone feels that way.

Interesting point of view. However ..

1) AL has said it is legal to make use of the ritual, the only consequences are related to faction, the required exhaustion die roll, the acquisition of a number of yuan-ti pureblood characteristics and a random form of indefinite madness.

*** Mild Spoilers below ***

2) From a role play point of view, the characters are trying to save potentially thousands or millions of people from permanent death by destroying the soul monger which is consuming the souls of the dead and dying. Resurrection magic does not work. The party may be the only hope for all of these people, perhaps they are the only ones who have even gotten close to the temple. In addition, the PCs may have a quest to eliminate Ras Nsi. Both destroying the soul monger AND eliminating Ras Nsi may be greatly facilitated if one or more of the PCs become yuan-ti purebloods both due to their added capabilities and the ability to better blend in to the yuan-ti society in Omu and thus be able to move the party through the city and find a favorable ambush to remove Ras Nsi.

These motivations might be more than sufficient for even a good character to participate in a such a depraved ritual. The inherent moral conflict involved causes a random form of indefinite madness in the character. It is a difficult sacrifice to make but many characters might decide to make it in order to increase their chances of destroying the soul monger. The characters struggle to maintain their moral stance and their outlook on the world despite the terrible acts they feel they are forced to perform as part of the ritual.

The bottom line to me is that any DM who says "Oh, you must be chaotic or neutral evil to have performed this ritual, and thus can't be played in AL" is simply not paying attention to the story line but rather just want to shut down something they consider power gaming rather than role playing ... which is simple BS for something that is clearly written into both the ToA hardcover and some of the ToA guild adept DDAL adventures and has been explicitly approved as part of DDAL.

[xroads]

My apologize to the OP, but I have no answer for the Yuan Ti question. I don't run AL.

But as to the issue of Artus...


Artus is CR7, and has a Longbow and the Bookmark (+3 dagger), gets 3 attacks a turn and his lowest attribute is a 10 in strength. He's running around with the Saurial Dragonbait, who can auto detect the alignment of anyone within 60 feet of him (So if your character is the type to try anything, he already knows) and carries a Holy Avenger. Oh, and you're basically encouraged to have the two accompany the party through at least part of the adventure. Thankfully no one I play with is a reader of awful genre fiction.


I'm running the hardcover for my group and I decided a while back ago not to use Artus or Dragonbait. I didn't like the idea of NPCs so powerful they outshine the party. And they seem like they are Mary Stu type characters.

On a similiar note, in my campaign Elminster is effected by the death curse. Sure, he's got a lot of hit points. But he's dead if the characters aren't fast enough.

Elminster's hit points serve as a clock for the campaign. Elminster's soul will be enough to awaken the god abomination.