How important is Charisma to a Favored Soul Bladelock?

[LeonBH]

For context, my character has a choice of having either 18 Strength and 15 Charisma, or 15 Strength and 18 Charisma. I've chosen 18 Strength 15 Charisma.

I realized that a Favored Soul Sorcerer with 5 levels of Bladelock doesn't need a high Charisma if they never progress their Warlock levels to level 12. After all, more Sorcerer levels gives more spell slots to power more Eldritch Smites (available in UA, and confirmed to be available in Xanathos Guide to Everything).

While a low Charisma definitely affects spell attacks and spell save DC, a Favored Soul Bladelock's main source of damage is their Pact Weapon, which keys off Strength. And as far as spellcasting is concerned, a Favored Soul can choose from the Cleric spell list, and would most likely benefit more from choosing utility/support spells over blast/control spells.

Am I missing something? How important is Charisma to a Favored Soul Bladelock?

[DivisibleByZero]

Bladelock multiclass on a Sorc build has kind of become a bit of a trap ever since the release of SCAG.
Use the SCAG cantrips to deal similar (slightly less, but similar) damage, and do so without giving up all those tasty Sorc levels.
A small dip might arguably be worth it, but 5+ levels is not, IMO.

[LeonBH]

You have a good point there, actually. Booming Blade deals magic damage with your regular weapon damage.

Something that made me like the large dip in Warlock was the weapon proficiency though. A pure Sorcerer can use a dagger (1d4) with Booming Blade, but a Bladelock can use a Maul (2d6) with Booming Blade. Plus, Great Weapon Master can be used with Booming Blade if a Bladelock uses it, but not a Sorcerer (unless they dip a level in Fighter first or acquire martial weapon proficiency in some other way).

Although, 5 levels of Warlock enables Eldritch Smite, which can be used once per turn. It deals 1d8 Force damage plus 1d8 more Force damage per level of spell slot expended, which can do a surprisingly large damage spike as long as there are enough spell slots to keep fueling it.

[DivisibleByZero]

You have a good point there, actually. Booming Blade deals magic damage with your regular weapon damage.

Something that made me like the large dip in Warlock was the weapon proficiency though. A pure Sorcerer can use a dagger (1d4) with Booming Blade, but a Bladelock can use a Maul (2d6) with Booming Blade. Plus, Great Weapon Master can be used with Booming Blade if a Bladelock uses it, but not a Sorcerer (unless they dip a level in Fighter first or acquire martial weapon proficiency in some other way).

Although, 5 levels of Warlock enables Eldritch Smite, which can be used once per turn. It deals 1d8 Force damage plus 1d8 more Force damage per level of spell slot expended, which can do a surprisingly large damage spike as long as there are enough spell slots to keep fueling it.

Paladin 2 dip does something similar with 3 less levels invested, comes with a whole host of other benefits as well, and is more thematically appropriate for a FvS.
If you're looking at a multi to get that stuff, Paladin 2 is strictly better than Warlock 5 IMO.

[Desteplo]

If you are worried about the spiking damage and want more weapon proficiency then there is also the classic 2 paladin/18 Sorcerer or 6/14

[Foff]

so, what you're trying to do is make a sorcadin with a warlock instead right?
If the only reason you're picking warlock is for pact of the blade and eldritch smite you're most likely better off just playing a sorcadin instead (combat style + divine smite + weapon, shield and medium armor proficiencies with just a 2 lvl dip instead of 5 levels for eldritch smite)
IF you're trying to make a sorlock gish for roleplay reasons, or if you just like warlock better than paladin, you're probably better off going the Hexblade way and use charisma for everything for a lvl 3 dip in warlock
just get pact of the blade and improved pact weapon invocation (so you don't even need warcaster) and either something like devil's sight or an utility invocation

[LeonBH]

Paladin 2 dip does something similar with 3 less levels invested, comes with a whole host of other benefits as well, and is more thematically appropriate for a FvS.
If you're looking at a multi to get that stuff, Paladin 2 is strictly better than Warlock 5 IMO.

True. But then I wouldn't get Extra Attack and lose a chance to use Great Weapon Master twice in a round (and do a second smite, too, if it went Paladin 5 for example). But I suppose that damage is offset by Booming Blade's extra damage if they move.



so, what you're trying to do is make a sorcadin with a warlock instead right?
If the only reason you're picking warlock is for pact of the blade and eldritch smite you're most likely better off just playing a sorcadin instead (combat style + divine smite + weapon, shield and medium armor proficiencies with just a 2 lvl dip instead of 5 levels for eldritch smite)
IF you're trying to make a sorlock gish for roleplay reasons, or if you just like warlock better than paladin, you're probably better off going the Hexblade way and use charisma for everything for a lvl 3 dip in warlock
just get pact of the blade and improved pact weapon invocation (so you don't even need warcaster) and either something like devil's sight or an utility invocation

Essentially, yes and yes. We already have a Paladin in the group, and I'd already said I'd play an arcanist. But I thought it would be clever to fish Extra Attack out of Warlock and play a gish. Can do magic and healing, but will not be completely shut down by, for example, a Rakshasa, a Lich, or even a simple globe of invulnerability spell.

I suppose my concern is, without dipping enough for Extra Attack, won't that make this gish weak in melee?

Also, what about the Warlock's ability to refresh spell slots on a short rest? A 5th level Warlock has two 3rd level slots, which can come in handy as a source of staying power in combat.

[DivisibleByZero]

True. But then I wouldn't get Extra Attack and lose a chance to use Great Weapon Master twice in a round (and do a second smite, too, if it went Paladin 5 for example). But I suppose that damage is offset by Booming Blade's extra damage if they move.
<snip>

Essentially, yes and yes. We already have a Paladin in the group, and I'd already said I'd play an arcanist. But I thought it would be clever to fish Extra Attack out of Warlock and play a gish. Can do magic and healing, but will not be completely shut down by, for example, a Rakshasa, a Lich, or even a simple globe of invulnerability spell.

I suppose my concern is, without dipping enough for Extra Attack, won't that make this gish weak in melee?

Also, what about the Warlock's ability to refresh spell slots on a short rest? A 5th level Warlock has two 3rd level slots, which can come in handy as a source of staying power in combat.

Extra Attack isn't all it's cracked up to be on a Gish since SCAG came out.
The Swordmage cantrips do slightly less damage, but not by much, in the earlier levels. They actually do more by the later levels.

Level 5 (if you haven't taken any Sorc levels yet....):
-- 18 stat w/ Extra Attack using longsword/rapier: (1d8+5)*2 = ~19 damage if both hit.
-- w/ cantrip: 1d8+5+1d8 = ~14

Level 11:
-- w/ EA: (1d8+5)*2 = ~19 damage if both hit. No change.
-- w/ cantrip: 1d8+5+2d8 = ~18.5, now even

Level 17:
-- w/ EA: (1d8+5)*2 = ~19 damage if both hit. No change.
-- w/ cantrip: 1d8+5+3d8 = ~24, now ahead.

The difference in the early levels isn't negligible, but it isn't pronounced either. By mid levels they're even, but the small dip is a better caster as well. By the high levels the caster pulls ahead in every aspect.
It's a slightly later bloomer, but it isn't gimped by any means.
The only real difference is that the former has more chances to smite. But that also means more resources spent on smiting. And you already have a Paladin in the group, so even without ExAttack you'll be getting 2-3 smites per round in if the mob needs to go down fast (depending on whether you dip Pally or not)
Upon hearing that you already have a Pally in the group, now I'm even more against 5 levels of Lock than I was before. I'd go 2 Pally, or 1 Fighter, or 1-2 Hexblade. You said you'd play the Arcanist. Losing 5 levels of slots and spells known isn't going to help you do what you said you'd do. It's just going to allow you to do more of what the Pally in the party can already do. But at the expense of you doing what you said you'd do.

[LeonBH]

Well taken. Your point about party synergy is astute, DivisibleByZero. I assumed most of the magical needs could be done by the lower level spells. Suggestion and phantasmal force are really the only two debuffs one needs in combat, IMO, and haste is essentially the best buff in the game. If so, then I could just join the fray in melee combat.

Let me correct myself though. I actually said I'd play the Sorcerer, not simply arcanist, so I don't think I'm expected to fill the Wizard's shoes. We also have a Bard, and I think their magic plus mine will be plenty.

I'll have 8 spells known at level 6, after all, which is one spell more than a pure Sorcerer knows at that level. The sacrifice really comes in the spell slot progression and level of the spells I can cast.

Though to round out the DPR comparisons here, take a look at the Strength builds as well. I'll just copy your numbers and tack mine at the end for simplicity.



Level 5:
Warlock: 18 stat w/ Extra Attack using longsword/rapier: (1d8+5)*2 = ~19 damage if both hit.
Sorc w/ cantrip: 1d8+5+1d8 = ~14
Warlock (str): 18 stat w/ Extra Attack using hex, maul, GWM, and 3rd level smite: (2d6+4+1d6+10)*2+4d8 = 67
Paladin 2/Sorc 3: Booming Blade and 2nd level Smite: 1d8+5+1d8+3d8 = 27.5

Level 11:
Warlock: w/ EA: (1d8+5)*2 = ~19 damage if both hit. No change.
Sorc w/ cantrip: 1d8+5+2d8 = ~18.5, now even
Paladin
Warlock (str) w/ Sorc 6: 18 stat w/ Extra Attack using haste, 3rd level smite, and GWM: 3*(2d6+4+10)+4d8 = 81
Paladin 2/Sorc 9 (dex): 20 stat, Booming Blade, haste, 4th level smite: 2*(1d8+5)+5d8+2d8 = 50.5

Level 17:
Warlock w/ EA: (1d8+5)*2 = ~19 damage if both hit. No change.
Sorc w/ cantrip: 1d8+5+3d8 = ~24, now ahead.
Warlock (str) w/ Sorc 12: 20 stat w/ Extra Attack using haste, 6th level smite, and GWM: 3*(2d6+5+10)+7d8 = 97.5
Paladin 2/Sorc 9: 20 stat, Booming Blade, haste, 4th level smite: 2*(1d8+5)+5d8+3d8 = 55


There is a large damage opportunity cost if Warlock is dropped. Though a 2 level dip in Paladin yields high damage results too, it deals half damage by level 17.

I'll ask my party if we think we need a more utility-based caster or a blaster caster. But I do see how Booming Blade helps out now with a Paladin 2 dip. Thanks!

[DivisibleByZero]

The bottom line is that I don't like deep Warlock multiclasses for casters.
At least with anyone else you get to continue growing upon your spell slots. But with the Lock's different casting mechanic the reverse is not true.

Remember 3e, when everyone cried about not splitting from caster classes too much because you don't want to lose your spell progression? Well in a general sense 5e has fixed a lot of those problems. But in the case of the Warlock that problem persists.
Small Lock dips work. Deeper ones are not worth the cost, IMO, when another dip instead would actually still get you higher levels slots.
IMO, Warlocks can dip other classes, and other classes can dip Lock, but anything more than a couple of levels almost certainly means that another class would have been a better choice to dip into and that Lock falls off the table of options.
1-3 levels of Lock on something else, or 1-3 levels of something else on a Lock. Nothing in between.