Which kensai will we get?

[Spacehamster]

Do you think we will get a more polished version of the first UA version or will we get the crappy one that can't use heavy weapons?

[mephnick]

I think they're pretty set on not allowing heavy weapons. The second Kensai is a competent monk subclass, it's just a little generic.

Don't go saying it's crappy just because you're not getting your cheesy greatsword flurries or whatever people want.

[Spacehamster]

I think they're pretty set on not allowing heavy weapons. The second Kensai is a competent monk subclass, it's just a little generic.

Don't go saying it's crappy just because you're not getting your cheesy greatsword flurries or whatever people want.

The flurry is not with the weapon tho? And it's crappy cus first they made it good then took it away. ;) it's a mistake overall to make it a monk subclass instead of a fighter one in my opinion, but hey will see if it's decent in December. :)

[mephnick]

I never cared about the Kensai in prior editions so maybe I'm confused as to what people want. It's a mystic weapon master archetype and the monk kensai makes you very effective with your chosen weapons (even non-monk weapons) by channeling your ki through them.

Seems pretty on point to me. Though I agree with some that it should have focused on melee weapons and the longbow monk should have been made into a separate "zen archer" archetype.

[Spacehamster]

I never cared about the Kensai in prior editions so maybe I'm confused as to what people want. It's a mystic weapon master archetype and the monk kensai makes you very effective with your chosen weapons (even non-monk weapons) by channeling your ki through them.

Seems pretty on point to me. Though I agree with some that it should have focused on melee weapons and the longbow monk should have been made into a separate "zen archer" archetype.

Probably just from my point of view from loving the kensai in the baldurs gate games where they were a glass cannon huge dpr monster, so want it to be very high damage for the trade off of weaker defense. :)

[alchahest]

wanting to use heavy weapons isn't just a "cheese" thing.

a: GWM is a feat, which is optional, seperate from the class that requires spending one of your ASIs on
b: being able to monk while weilding a long spear or maul is absolutely awesome, and has a ton of precedence in wuxia. But as both are heavy, both are ruled out.

[mephnick]

wanting to use heavy weapons isn't just a "cheese" thing.

a: GWM is a feat, which is optional, seperate from the class that requires spending one of your ASIs on.

Maybe they're learning from prior mistakes that most people use feats and that they should likely balance around them just a tiny bit? It's hard to go back and fix Sharpshooter + Archery style, but better late than never right?


b: being able to monk while weilding a long spear or maul is absolutely awesome, and has a ton of precedence in wuxia. But as both are heavy, both are ruled out.

I agree that it's thematic for something, but maybe not the kensai. When I think of "Kensai" in other fiction, I think of a dude that's really connected with a longsword or katana type weapon. Not a guy wildly swinging a maul around.

[jaappleton]

No Heavy Weapons has been confirmed.

[Spacehamster]

No Heavy Weapons has been confirmed.

Dang! Ow well still gonna try a v-human fighter 1, kensai 19 using a longsword 2 handed with mariner style, mobile feat, maxed WIS + DEX, not sure what to pick as 2nd feat tho.

Starting ability scores will be 10/16/14/8/16/8 and end score 10/20/14/8/20/8, as 2nd feat maybe tough would be good for same hp as if I had 18 CON?

[mephnick]

I've got a fun idea for a Lizardfolk Kensai (refluffed as a raging tribal monster) that just bites people and hurls spears at them while rushing them down swinging a battleaxe and drinking their blood.

..just need to find that evil campaign..

[alchahest]

Maybe they're learning from prior mistakes that most people use feats and that they should likely balance around them just a tiny bit? It's hard to go back and fix Sharpshooter + Archery style, but better late than never right?



I agree that it's thematic for something, but maybe not the kensai. When I think of "Kensai" in other fiction, I think of a dude that's really connected with a longsword or katana type weapon. Not a guy wildly swinging a maul around.

when I think of Kensai, I think of Michelle Yeoh in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. or Gordon Liu in 36 Chambers of Shaolin. both frequently used heavy weapons like long spear or a great club, and wielded them gracefully, intermingling attacks with unarmed strikes. from other media, Lu Bu in the dynasty warriors series is a great example, his lance (a special weapon, not heavy) is another weapon gracefully wielded by a martial artist.

edit: Though if going on the japanese root of the name Kensai (weird spelling notwithstanding) there is only one, Miyamoto Musashi. Who in addition to wielding a katana, is famed for wielding paired swords, or an oar, or any old weapon he can find to humiliate his opponent. But he wasn't tied to a chinese aesthetic like D&D monks are so it's a weird comparison.

[Erit]

Most likely going to get the second rendition of Kensei, personally hoping it isn't nerfed too hard. I love what seems to be an iaijutsu aesthetic they're going with, just a bit of a shame there isn't much mechanically present to support it.

[MrStabby]

I thought it a fun subclass allowing stylish specialisation till they removed the net and lance options.

[MeeposFire]

Probably just from my point of view from loving the kensai in the baldurs gate games where they were a glass cannon huge dpr monster, so want it to be very high damage for the trade off of weaker defense. :)

But does this kensai have weaker defense? The BG2 one (which in reality was adaption of the old 1e oriental adventures class) had an AC that was way low for a warrior type with restrictions designed specifically to keep it from the most common AC boosts (no glove slot items meant no bracers of AC and considering that no gloves was NOT a kensai restriction before or after that was specifically implemented to prevent them from getting a constant decent base AC). The 5e monk actually has decent AC and defenses so I do not know it really fits the idea of glass cannon or at least not enough glass to be given that level of relative power.

[Zalabim]

wanting to use heavy weapons isn't just a "cheese" thing.

a: GWM is a feat, which is optional, seperate from the class that requires spending one of your ASIs on
b: being able to monk while weilding a long spear or maul is absolutely awesome, and has a ton of precedence in wuxia. But as both are heavy, both are ruled out.
With Barbarian, Fighter, and Paladin, there are already multiple classes for a variety of styles using heavy weapons. If mauls and greatswords are allowed, then no Kensei ever uses the lowly longsword, warhammer, or really any one-handed/versatile weapon. There's an extra consideration that has to be made for long spears and glaives, and that's reconciling Reach with Unarmed Strikes. It's the same problem that bows have, so they can probably use the same solution.

Dang! Ow well still gonna try a v-human fighter 1, kensai 19 using a longsword 2 handed with mariner style, mobile feat, maxed WIS + DEX, not sure what to pick as 2nd feat tho.

Starting ability scores will be 10/16/14/8/16/8 and end score 10/20/14/8/20/8, as 2nd feat maybe tough would be good for same hp as if I had 18 CON?
Same as 16 CON. Maybe a little better. Like 16 2/3. Unless you're trying to say your Monk doesn't plan to use HD like they'll never take short rests.Tough getting unreasoned praise is a pet peeve of mine.

[Tanarii]

But does this kensai have weaker defense? The BG2 one (which in reality was adaption of the old 1e oriental adventures class) had an AC that was way low for a warrior type with restrictions designed specifically to keep it from the most common AC boosts (no glove slot items meant no bracers of AC and considering that no gloves was NOT a kensai restriction before or after that was specifically implemented to prevent them from getting a constant decent base AC). The 5e monk actually has decent AC and defenses so I do not know it really fits the idea of glass cannon or at least not enough glass to be given that level of relative power.
Keep in mind that 1e Monks also had garbage AC until very high levels, and could not enhance it.

OA Kensai were very much, at a first glance, martial-weapon-wielding monks. I mean, not when you dig into the details. But on the surface, they were somewhat similar: unarmored agility-based warriors.

[polymphus]

You do realise the one without heavy weapons is a) more polished (it came out later, and is officially the revised version) and b) a lot more powerful?

The original Kensei is totally broken, and not in the way you're thinking: it doesn't make Kensei weapons act like Monk weapons -- you can't use Dex for them, their damage doesn't scale, and you can't do your unarmed bonus actions or ki abilities with them. Revised Kensei is way more powerful.

I mean I guess you lose out on greatswords and glaives, but you also get a monk who works like a monk should. If you really want to bring a Nodachi samurai to the fight, take a fighter with the Samurai archetype.

[MeeposFire]

Keep in mind that 1e Monks also had garbage AC until very high levels, and could not enhance it.

OA Kensai were very much, at a first glance, martial-weapon-wielding monks. I mean, not when you dig into the details. But on the surface, they were somewhat similar: unarmored agility-based warriors.

You would have to look at the original kensai extremely broadly to think it was a monk type rather than a fighter type I would think. They mechanically have little to do at all with monks and the fluff could potentially seen either way though I always saw it more fighter oriented.

I will give you that they are both unarmored though so if that is the most important reason to think of it being a monk like experience then I guess I can see it.

In 5e I think it makes sense making it a monk though so no problems there. Oddly the original kensai was rewarded to go two weapon fighting and the current one will not.

[rbstr]

The revised kensei is a pretty decent subclass. My problem with it is the flavor, it just doesn't focus on the weapon use as much as I would like even though its features and fluff are centered around weapon use.
Like the +2Ac feature needs you to make one of your (non-flurry) attacks unarmed. (So you're probably just holding the weapon for two levels!)
You can only use the ki-smite once a turn and you only get a max of two weapon-based attacks. Same kind of issue with the Sharpen the Blade feature. You just don't get to swing the weapon enough.

I wish it'd have enabled kensei-weapon use with the martial arts bonus action and flurry of blows. I know that might be too strong initially and that int he end it doesn't matter a ton mechanically since you get d8/d10 fists eventually but the image is more like "puncher who might stab you sometimes" rather than the "preposterous anime-ish swordsperson" I really had in mind.

[Tanarii]

You would have to look at the original kensai extremely broadly to think it was a monk type rather than a fighter type I would think. They mechanically have little to do at all with monks and the fluff could potentially seen either way though I always saw it more fighter oriented. Oh I absolutely agree. Extremely Broadly is the exact right phrase to describe it. But I feel that's exactly what the designers are generally inclined to do when looking at classes for 5e. They seem to be inclined towards top-down design, starting with "what is the core of this thing, and where would it fit best".

But remember, in 5e so far they've made:
Warden --> Ancients Paladin
Ninja --> Shadow Monk
Warlord --> Battlemaster Fighter
Cavalier --> Devotion Paladin
Swordmage --> Stone Sorcerer
Avengers --> Vengeance Paladin
Assassin --> Assassin Rogue
Wild Mage --> Wild Sorcerer

They've also heavily done the classic feedback loop thing incorporated some of the feel of WoW Druids and WoW Hunters into the Moon Druid and Beastmaster Ranger classes. Which of course got a lot of their ideas form D&D. (Although from common internet complaints, they failed to do so strongly enough in the case of Archer Rangers wanting tank companions.)

[alchahest]

Oh I absolutely agree. Extremely Broadly is the exact right phrase to describe it. But I feel that's exactly what the designers are generally inclined to do when looking at classes for 5e. They seem to be inclined towards top-down design, starting with "what is the core of this thing, and where would it fit best".

But remember, in 5e so far they've made:
Warden --> Ancients Paladin
Ninja --> Shadow Monk
Warlord --> Battlemaster Fighter
Cavalier --> Devotion Paladin
Swordmage --> Stone Sorcerer
Avengers --> Vengeance Paladin
Assassin --> Assassin Rogue
Wild Mage --> Wild Sorcerer

Ancients paladin doesn't play or feel like warden at all. Wardens are shapeshifting tanks that prevent their allies from being attacked

the only similarity between battlemaster and warlord is that it's the only martial class that can (if you take one of the two maneuvers) allow an ally to act (though it uses resources for both the battlemaster and the ally)

Stone Sorceror is basically "if we were to make this tough fighting wizard guy using completely different mechanics and ideas, we can make a guy that kind of defends in the same way as a swordmage, but significantly more limited and way more dependant on regular sorceror casting"

otherwise I agree with the list in general

[MeeposFire]

Oh I absolutely agree. Extremely Broadly is the exact right phrase to describe it. But I feel that's exactly what the designers are generally inclined to do when looking at classes for 5e. They seem to be inclined towards top-down design, starting with "what is the core of this thing, and where would it fit best".

But remember, in 5e so far they've made:
Warden --> Ancients Paladin
Ninja --> Shadow Monk
Warlord --> Battlemaster Fighter
Cavalier --> Devotion Paladin
Swordmage --> Stone Sorcerer
Avengers --> Vengeance Paladin
Assassin --> Assassin Rogue
Wild Mage --> Wild Sorcerer

They've also heavily done the classic feedback loop thing incorporated some of the feel of WoW Druids and WoW Hunters into the Moon Druid and Beastmaster Ranger classes. Which of course got a lot of their ideas form D&D. (Although from common internet complaints, they failed to do so strongly enough in the case of Archer Rangers wanting tank companions.)

Broadly I agree with this but just ot be clear this whole conversation was started not about how close the kensai from 1e is to the 5e monk but rather the comparison of how the 2e kensai kit from BG2 related to the gnereal fighter class of being a glass canon but that the 5e one really is not a glass canon when you compare it to the standard monk archetypes.