Setting limits for expanding Permanence

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all,

This thread might seem a little moot as it more or less boils down to "whatever I feel like", but I am looking to expand the list of spells that can be permanenced to cover splat books. But rather than ask for what spells I should include (which will likely result in a list of spells designed for optimization, and will ignore spells like Evergreen, which I feel is perfect for permanency) I was wondering if you could help me by coming up with a set of rules for spells that CANT be made permanent.

For example, should it only be harmless spells with a duration of hours/level or longer? Are there any exceptions to that, and if so do they follow a pattern?

In addition, Permanency is currently only a Wiz/Sor spell. Would it be game breaking to give it to Clerics and Druids at the same spell level? I cant see why it would, but you never can tell.

If you fancy expanding my knowledge of 3.5e spells (I cant say I am familiar with a lot of them), what would be your one optimized, and one unoptimized, non-core spell you have always wanted to see permanenced?

Cheers all

[Zaq]

Permanency has a whitelist rather than a list of criteria for a reason. Any blanket rules you lay out are likely to include at least one spell that unexpectedly causes problems when made permanent. You’re much better off going case-by-case and reviewing each spell individually.

You can even shift some of the work to your players rather than going through every buff in the game and trying to assess a cost for it. Tell them that you’re considering opening up Permanency to some spells that aren’t usually on the list and ask them to, if they think they might want to use this, come up with a handful of spells they might be interested in eventually making permanent. Ask them why they’re interested in those specific spells, while you’re at it. Then you won’t be wasting time making houserules for spells that nobody cares about.

[Telonius]

Permanency can be pretty powerful, since you can end up paying much less than you would if you made a Widget of Continuous (spell), especially as the spell levels increase. To compare the costs, let's say we're using the 5gp to 1xp substitution ratio.

Take Comprehend Languages (a first level spell) for example. A widget of Comprehend would be 2000*1*1*2(slotless)=4000gp. Crafting costs would be 2000gp and 160xp. Using the 5gp per XP conversion, that would be 560 (60 xp more than the spell costs you)

For Darkvision, 2000*2*3*2(slotless)=24,000gp. (Basically, a slotless Goggles of Night). Crafting costs 12000gp, 960xp. 5/1 gp/xp, gives you 3360 XP, compared to the 1000XP that Permanency sets you back.

Arcane Sight or Tongues is even more of a difference. 2000*3*5*2(slotless)=60,000gp. Crafting costs 30,000gp, 2400XP. 5/1 gp/xp = 8400XP, compared to 1500 XP through Permanency.

Paying 1500xp to get a 60,000gp-equivalent benefit is a better return than a Wish spell.

If you're considering opening Permanency up as a general thing to anybody, I would limit it to (at most) third level spells and below.

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks all :)

Im less concerned with my players breaking things. The sorts of games I run with the sorts of people I run them with, I would be GREATLY surprised if one of them ever used Permanency, even on the core spells.

This is more about things I might make permanent. I wont need it for encounters (because by the time a spell runs out, one side isnt going to be fighting any more). But for objects and areas... I know I dont even need a spell, but I do like a world that is so self consistent that a player could look up and say "thats cool, how do you do it?" and give them a page reference, rather than refer them to a house rule.

Limiting to below 3rd is good. My gut is also telling me that a duration of hours is required.

(Side note, I went back and read evergreen and now I am wondering about the spell. I swear I read a spell I THOUGHT was evergreen that created an area of warmth for those that slept inside it, but evergreen does nothing like that. Have I got the spell confused with another one, or did my memory just make up a spell?)

[Coidzor]

I'd say if you're going to expand it, just make it a ritual any spellcaster can do that requires them to expend the requisite material components and a spell slot/prepared spell of 5th level or higher.

Unless you're using Pathfinder material and want to keep it compatible with Blood Money.

I still think Ironwood should work with Permanency, even if it is core.

Echo Skull is a 5th level Druid spell from Magic of Faerun and the Spell Compendium. Lets you have a skull you can perceive out of with your senses at any distance on the same plane. Lasts for hours. Think it'd probably be thematic to have it be permanency compatible.

The spell Train Animal is a Ranger 2, Druid 2, and Consecrated Harrier 2 spell from Complete Adventurer and the Spell Compendium. It gives an animal additional known tricks. Lasts for hours.

Snowsight from Frostburn is a 1st level Druid, Ranger, Consecrated Harrier, and Winter Domain spell. I suppose that's probably the optimized spell choice. Feels like it's in line with Detect Magic and See Invisibility and Arcane Sight.

[Fizban]

For example, should it only be harmless spells with a duration of hours/level or longer? Are there any exceptions to that, and if so do they follow a pattern?
All you gotta do for that is look at the spells and find the pattern- that also means looking at the 3.0 list and seeing what changed.

Self only: basic magical senses. Read/Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, Darkvision, See Invisibility, Comprehend Languages and Tongues. 3.0 Didn't have Arcane Sight, so you can see it was brought in as an extension of Detect Magic, but Analyze Dweomer isn't on either list. Darkvision is usually given out all but free as a racial ability, while See Invisibility is a very general effect- it can also be noted that Sor/Wiz does not have Spot/Listen, making permanent See Invis a very specific counter that doesn't help with serious stealth creatures that have the skills. No True Seeing.

Other creatures: Enlarge/Reduce Person, Magic Fang/Greater and Resistance. I'm not sure what compelled them to add Telepathic Bond, but it's the highest level of the spells, and Greater Magic Fang is really just an extension of the basic version. 3.0 didn't actually have Reduce on there either, or GMF, so we can see that they decided that greater version was worthwhile, and also both Enlarge and Reduce as a set.

Areas and locations, now this is where it gets interesting. There's no flat physical effects, terrain alterations or transmutations, it's all energy, wards, and creep.

-Creep: Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, and Web are the most "physical," all of which can be pushed through or physically removed. Note the conspicuous absence of higher level Acid Fog or Incendiary Cloud.

-Manifestations of energy: Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall, Prismatic Sphere. Note that Wall of Ice is conspicuously absent, despite being the same level and having far fewer implications than Wall of Fire, why is this?

-Wards/symbols: Alarm, Magic Mouth, Symbol of X, Mage's Private Sanctum. Note the conspicuous absence of Dimensional Lock, despite them coming from the same 3.0 source, as well as the lack of Guards and Wards. Just permanent symbols, sound/talking program/trap, and creature detection trap. No Explosive Runes, Fire Traps, or Sepia Snake Sigils, and it can also be noted that Symbol was originally one spell with different options.

-Object manipulation: Animate Objects, Invisibility, and Shrink Item, with Animate Objects not being present in 3.0. I'm pretty sure that was added simply because there was no way to actually create animated objects, while permanently invisible and shrinkable objects are things that pop up in fantasy from time to time. There's no Magic Weapon, no Heat Metal, Levitate, or hardly much else though, so clearly this is a very limited category.

-"Because I said so": That all leaves Phase Door and Teleportation Circle. The former being an exceedingly good escape route/hidden passage for the owner, and the latter being both an official core one-way portal (for the same plane) and explicitly set up as the "you don't even know you were teleported" trap for making impossible mazes. This category could also include Prismatic Sphere, as it lets the caster simply 5' step into their own personal safety bubble, great for giving a high level caster advantages in their base.


So what spells are conspicuously absent? The missing creep spells are higher level and deal damage to those passing through, more weapons than a delaying tactic. The missing "manifestation of energy" spell that gets me is Wall of Ice: it deals damage, but so does Wall of fire- but Wall of Ice also impedes movement with it's own physical hp, worse than the creep spells that aren't allowed to damage people.

You can have what might be called environmental energy with Gust of Wind, Dancing Lights, and Ghost Sound, as well as the harmless but unbreakable Wall of Force, often featured as a building material in high level dungeons, and Prismatic Walls, a "more threatening" unbeatable wall with a gimmick also featured in high level dungeons.

There are specific traps you can make permanent, basically alarms, talking, and the high level Symbol trap which has a bunch of specific mechanics, but none of the one and done low-level traps. Symbol must explicitly be visible to function.

You're allowed to permanently shutter the curtains against divination, but not stop teleportation- that remains the sole domain of the clerical Forbiddance spell.

You're allowed to hide, shrink, or animate objects, but not make them better weapons or do anything outside of themselves.

You're allowed to make portals that can move people without their noticing.


What's the theme? Stuff that high level bad guys can use to harass the PCs and be "high level wizards," without "unfairly" causing them a bunch of damage on the way. Let them teleport in, but not scry the bad guy's plans. Let the bad guy see and understand them without wasting spells buffing, but not give him a bunch of free power buffs. Set up "magical terrain" that can be combined with minions but is only dangerous if they jump into it, traps that they can either see literally written on the wall or which merely move them around.

Edit: and to be clear, duration is not really a factor. There are spells with durations of rounds and even 1 round in there (Gust of Wind is actually impossible to Permanency thanks to the 2 round casting time), in addition to minutes or concentration or until discharged. Permanency is not about paying xp to stop cycling your extended long duration buffs.

In addition, Permanency is currently only a Wiz/Sor spell. Would it be game breaking to give it to Clerics and Druids at the same spell level? I cant see why it would, but you never can tell.
Aside from Magic Fang and Animate Objects, there aren't any permanent-able spells that are divine only. Divine casters have their own permanent effects: Hallow, Forbiddence, and Glyph of Warding for their traps. They don't have the "arcane science/boss tech" prerogative drawn from the "arcane magic does anything I want" theme.

There's one missing bit: Savage Species, as mentioned, has more permanent-able spells. These. . . are pretty clearly not written by someone who was paying attention. It's basically a lit of all the buffs in the book. Some of them can be justified: Blindisght is strictly better than See Invis, but at least it's similar, same with Scent (which is Sor/Wiz 2 in that book), and Low-Light Vision is spot-on, Greater/Superior Resistance are higher level versions of Resistance, Bridge of Sound and Illusory Pit are harmless terrain/traps.

But the rest are just straight power: Air Breathing has no allowed Water Breathing analogue from the PHB; Extend Tentacles, Fins to Feet, Cloud Wings, Fuse Arms, Girallon's Blessing, Rapid Burrowing, Weapon of Energy, and Wings of the Sea are just buffs (and Wall of Limbs is a physical wall with damage). The best that can be said is playing them off as mad science using permanency to make monsters, but it's a blatant pile of buffs that laughts at the PHB permanency list. They have Improved Enlarge on there when it isn't even an upgrade- it's a longer duration version of the 1st level effect, which has no reason to be made permanent, but it's on the list because Enlarge is on the list and they just slapped it on there.

So back to putting Permanency on the Cleric and Druid lists: well they only have a couple spells that even appear on the list, so it's hardly going to affect anything. Making a bunch of their spells permanent-able is the risk, and since you're the one who decides what game-breaking is, that's up to you.

-Edit: was skimming back through Tome and Blood and found more missing/official 3.0 permanencies. Enhance and Fortify Familiar, Familiar Pocket, Dispelling Screen, Spiritwall, and Dimensional Lock. So it's real odd they kept Arcane Sight and Private Sanctum but not Dim Lock. I was quite gratified to see Dispelling Screen and Spiritwall right after I'd put them on my own shortlist for expanding permanency.