Sneak attack build without losing full BAB?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

The Aim: I'm hoping to make an E6 PC that is effective in melee and that will dish out a ton of damage. I love rolling a ton of dice and usually play casters for that. And skills are important to me if I can get them.
I think that in E6, sneak attacks could be a good way to get damage in. Is there a way to get a good E6 build that doesn't lose BAB that has good sneak attack? So far all I've come up with is Warblade 1/Fighter (Thug Variant, Sneak Attack Variant) 5. It'll have 3d6 sneak attack and be much more survivable than a rogue of the same level (better HD and medium armor), as well as be able to sneak attack pretty much all the time thanks to Island of Blades and the Sapphire Nightmare Blade maneuvre.

Fluffwise this is a build that really works: You start with warblade training, but then are self-taught (because how many campaigns let you go back and train with masters?) and as you try to figure out more maneuvres, you develop a fighting style that goes straight for your targets weak points for massive damage.

Here's a quick example:
Human
1: Warblade 1 - I get 1 Stance(Hunter's Sense) and 3 Maneuvres(Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind) - feat: Martial Training (Shadow Blade Technique), human bonus feat: Martial Stance (Island of Blades)
2: Fighter (thug variant, sneak attack variant) 1 - 1d6 sneak attack
3: Fighter (thug variant, sneak attack variant) 2 - feat: Two-weapon-fighting
4: Fighter (thug variant, sneak attack variant) 3 - 2d6 sneak attack
5: Fighter (thug variant, sneak attack variant) 4
6: Fighter (thug variant, sneak attack variant) 5 - 3d6 sneak attack - Feat: Craven

Stats: Must have at least +1Int, then max out Str without neglecting Dex or Con too much.

Skills: If possible, focus on Concentration, Tumble and Intimidate. Other skills should be picked as needed depending on what the other PCs are (Hide? Move Silently? Listen? Diplomacy?).

Stuff to do with all the extra feats I'll be getting in E6:
-Get Diehard (because HP progression is basically nonexistent in E6)
-Get Improved Initiative
-Get Quick Draw
-Get Shadow Jaunt maneuver, Mountain Hammer maneuver, Wind Step maneuver, Assassin's Stance? (is there a short-range AoE maneuvre to get rid of chaff?)
-Get the Power Attack feats
-Get Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige (hey, it's a speed boost or skill boost!)
-Get Cleave

Thoughts? Would Crusader be better than Warblade? Should I change the level order and get the fantastic Island of Blades stance later?
Are there classes with sneak attack and full BAB that would make good dips?

[noce]

Another build could be Thug 3/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw.
You'll still get 3d6 sneak attack, int to damage, weapon finesse, more skill points, better ref and better will compared to your build, while losing maneuvers and stance.

Also, feats are not a problem in E6, so you could dip Invisible Blade, or Dread Commando.

[Darrin]

I would probably start with Barb 1/SA Fighter 1/Warblade 4. This gives you just enough IL to get 3rd level maneuvers. Warblade can get Martial Study: Cloak of Deception and Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance for 3d6 sneak attack. You can bump it up to 4d6 with Silverbrow human and Dragonfire Strike.

Battle Dancer 1/SA Fighter 1/Warblade 4 is also tempting... you can take Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick on top of TWF/Improved TWF. Touchstone + Oxyrhynchus gets you another attack if your opponent is denied Dex.

I'm not sure Crusader would be as effective, as most of your available maneuvers are standard action strikes. The Warblade has a better selection of boosts/counters, and can focus more on full attacks with TWF.

There are only two PrCs that offer sneak attack and full BAB with a 1-level dip: Ronin and Nightsong Enforcer. Unfortunately, they don't work for E6 because the former requires BAB +6 and the latter requires 10 ranks in two skills.

[Malimar]

You can't take two variants of the same class (thug + dirty fighter). In your case, they are even sharing a lost feature (bonus feat at level 1). Perhaps you cleared this with your DM, but just letting you know in case you had not noticed.
It's not entirely clear whether the first sentence here is correct. I don't know if there's any explicit 3.5-era language about taking two ACFs/variants/substitution levels/whatever they're calling it this book at the same time. It's generally accepted by the community that you can take two ACFs, so long as you don't give up the same thing more than once.

Which leads to your second sentence being correct, which in turn ultimately makes your conclusion (that you can't combine Thug Fighter and Sneak Attack Fighter) correct. It is generally accepted that you can't give up the same thing more than once. (Again, there's no explicit language on the subject, as far as I know. I could be wrong.)

(Pathfinder, of course, formalized the ACF/variant/substitution level/etc system into the single overarching Archetype system, and officially proclaimed that you can indeed combine archetypes so long as you don't give up the same thing more than once. But this isn't Pathfinder.)

[noce]

Unearthed Arcana explicitly states in the Sneak Attack variant that you can couple it with the Thug variant.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thoughts? Would Crusader be better than Warblade? Should I change the level order and get the fantastic Island of Blades stance later?
Are there classes with sneak attack and full BAB that would make good dips?
I mean, ideally you'd take Warblade at 5th, I think-- that gives you access to level 2 maneuvers right off the bat. On the other hand, that could mean going a long time without any maneuvers, which would be less fun-- depends on what level the campaign starts, I guess. The most powerful final version would probably be Warblade 5/Sneak Attack Fighter 1, with Martial Study (any shadow hand) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to get 3d6 sneak attack and 3rd level maneuvers...

[Malimar]

Unearthed Arcana explicitly states in the Sneak Attack variant that you can couple it with the Thug variant.
Why so it does. (Says so in the SRD entry on the subject, too, so I have no excuse for missing that line.) This is a case of specific beats general.

[CharonsHelper]

If Pathfinder is allowed - go Slayer. Burn a feat and you can get 3d6.

[Eladrinblade]

Another build could be Thug 3/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw.

Came to say this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're using the E6 capstone feats that require six levels of a specific class, then just Fighter (Thug) 6 would be best IMO. The Fighter capstone feat allows you to qualify for feats as though you're a Fighter 8 with +8 BAB, so you can get Melee Weapon Mastery, Improved Critical, and Greater Weapon Focus. That gives you plenty of feats to pick up, and I'd go Whisper Gnome in RoS and plan to take Extra Silence and Silencing Strike in that same book. Weapon Finesse and (Improved) TWF are a given, along with Martial Study/Stance and Shadow Blade. With Craven, Weapon Specialization, and Melee Weapon Mastery, you're looking at +10 damage before you even add in Shadow Blade.

Also keep in mind that the E6 rules say that the caster level requirements for items are treated as a hard requirement, but that almost never applies to an item's printed caster level. Since the official DMG Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) in 2004 any item's printed caster level is absolutely not one of the prerequisites for making it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions). Excluding items from what's available in E6 based solely on their printed caster levels is completely bogus and ignorant, since any given item's minimum caster level is the minimum required to meet all of its printed prerequisites (spells, item creation feats, and in very few cases there's actually a printed caster level requirement). For example, a Sword of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety)'s prerequisites are a 2nd level spell (minimum caster level 3rd) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (minimum caster level 5th), so even though its printed caster level for when it's found as random loot is 7th, a PC creating that weapon can do it at a caster level of 5th, regardless of whether or not the game is E6.

[death390]

technically as long as you have a way to get the required part to replace again then you can lose it again by re-losing the part. so things like losing a heavy armor proficiency for one ACF, then using a feat slot to get it back you can technically lose the heavy armor proficiency again for a different ACF. same thing with losing a single bonus feat for a ACF, you can technically use a normal feat slot for that due to the fact that bonus feats are a limited form of a feat whereas a standard feat slot is "unlimited".

[PhantasyPen]

Go Generic Warrior from Unearthed Arcana. You can take Sneak Attack as a bonus feat, with upgrades based on either your stealth ranks or your ref saves, I can't remember right now.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I've checked this, and it is explicitly said that Thug and Sneak Attack Fighter can be combined. So I will!
I'll be wanting the skills to set up sneak attacks, and heavy Armor isn't that much better than medium anyway. And I'll want to minimise Armor check penalties to Tumble...

And Warblade should give me heavy Armor proficiency. I'll eventually buy Mithril Full Plate.


If you're using the E6 capstone feats that require six levels of a specific class, then just Fighter (Thug) 6 would be best IMO. The Fighter capstone feat allows you to qualify for feats as though you're a Fighter 8 with +8 BAB, so you can get Melee Weapon Mastery, Improved Critical, and Greater Weapon Focus. That gives you plenty of feats to pick up, and I'd go Whisper Gnome in RoS and plan to take Extra Silence and Silencing Strike in that same book. Weapon Finesse and (Improved) TWF are a given, along with Martial Study/Stance and Shadow Blade. With Craven, Weapon Specialization, and Melee Weapon Mastery, you're looking at +10 damage before you even add in Shadow Blade.

Also keep in mind that the E6 rules say that the caster level requirements for items are treated as a hard requirement, but that almost never applies to an item's printed caster level. Since the official DMG Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) in 2004 any item's printed caster level is absolutely not one of the prerequisites for making it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions). Excluding items from what's available in E6 based solely on their printed caster levels is completely bogus and ignorant, since any given item's minimum caster level is the minimum required to meet all of its printed prerequisites (spells, item creation feats, and in very few cases there's actually a printed caster level requirement). For example, a Sword of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety)'s prerequisites are a 2nd level spell (minimum caster level 3rd) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (minimum caster level 5th), so even though its printed caster level for when it's found as random loot is 7th, a PC creating that weapon can do it at a caster level of 5th, regardless of whether or not the game is E6.

Thanks a lot! I didn't know that. I'll send this to my GM (and I'll keep it in mind when I GM).

Still, I'm not interested in taking six levels of fighter - sure +10 damage looks good, but that is a lot of feats and it only comes online late. And +10 damage is only about +3d6 sneak attack, which my build has...
And this way I'm not relying on my GM allowing capstone feats.


I mean, ideally you'd take Warblade at 5th, I think-- that gives you access to level 2 maneuvers right off the bat. On the other hand, that could mean going a long time without any maneuvers, which would be less fun-- depends on what level the campaign starts, I guess. The most powerful final version would probably be Warblade 5/Sneak Attack Fighter 1, with Martial Study (any shadow hand) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to get 3d6 sneak attack and 3rd level maneuvers...

Hm. But why Warblade 5? Wouldn't it be better to take Sneak Attack Fighter 4/Warblade 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 5? That way I could get better sneak attack damage, second level maneuvers, and access to a shadow hand maneuver and the stance I want by level 6. It won't come online quickly, but the build won't be too weak during levels 1-4 anyway (fighter is a solid chassis, and with allies making sure I get flanking (and the Tumble skill) or spellcaster support I can be sure to sneak attack regularly). And getting one or two second level maneuvers at level 5 will help a lot (for flavor, I'll probably be taking both counters from Diamond Mind, and the Sapphire Nightmare Blade or the Emerald Razor maneuver unless there's a perfect maneuver I'm missing?). And then I'll get the stance I want at level six, and then the build becomes pretty sweet.

If I do this then I can use my level one feats to go the Two-Weapon Fighting route. That seems good too!

Then comes the big question: which stance to use?
- With the Island of Blades stance, sneak attacking becomes easy. Being adjacent to en enemy gives me flanking, so as long as I avoid reach weapons all of my attacks should be flanking.
- With the Assassin's Stance, I get +5d6 sneak attack at level six. That seems pretty great! But seeing as I can't have two stances at once, setting up sneak attack will require some effort.
Should I spend two feats and take both, switching as needed?

[Fouredged Sword]

I've checked this, and it is explicitly said that Thug and Sneak Attack Fighter can be combined. So I will!
I'll be wanting the skills to set up sneak attacks, and heavy Armor isn't that much better than medium anyway. And I'll want to minimise Armor check penalties to Tumble...

And Warblade should give me heavy Armor proficiency. I'll eventually buy Mithril Full Plate.



Thanks a lot! I didn't know that. I'll send this to my GM (and I'll keep it in mind when I GM).

Still, I'm not interested in taking six levels of fighter - sure +10 damage looks good, but that is a lot of feats and it only comes online late. And +10 damage is only about +3d6 sneak attack, which my build has...
And this way I'm not relying on my GM allowing capstone feats.



Hm. But why Warblade 5? Wouldn't it be better to take Sneak Attack Fighter 4/Warblade 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 5? That way I could get better sneak attack damage, second level maneuvers, and access to a shadow hand maneuver and the stance I want by level 6. It won't come online quickly, but the build won't be too weak during levels 1-4 anyway (fighter is a solid chassis, and with allies making sure I get flanking (and the Tumble skill) or spellcaster support I can be sure to sneak attack regularly). And getting one or two second level maneuvers at level 5 will help a lot (for flavor, I'll probably be taking both counters from Diamond Mind, and the Sapphire Nightmare Blade or the Emerald Razor maneuver unless there's a perfect maneuver I'm missing?). And then I'll get the stance I want at level six, and then the build becomes pretty sweet.

If I do this then I can use my level one feats to go the Two-Weapon Fighting route. That seems good too!

Then comes the big question: which stance to use?
- With the Island of Blades stance, sneak attacking becomes easy. Being adjacent to en enemy gives me flanking, so as long as I avoid reach weapons all of my attacks should be flanking.
- With the Assassin's Stance, I get +5d6 sneak attack at level six. That seems pretty great! But seeing as I can't have two stances at once, setting up sneak attack will require some effort.
Should I spend two feats and take both, switching as needed?

Do not assume a static stance. Isles of blades when you are not nativly flanking and flow into assassins stance as you 5ft step into the better position.

[zergling.exe]

I've checked this, and it is explicitly said that Thug and Sneak Attack Fighter can be combined. So I will!
I'll be wanting the skills to set up sneak attacks, and heavy Armor isn't that much better than medium anyway. And I'll want to minimise Armor check penalties to Tumble...

And Warblade should give me heavy Armor proficiency. I'll eventually buy Mithril Full Plate.

Unless you're a Dwarf, you can only tumble in light armor. More specifically, only when armor or encumbrance aren't reducing your speed. If you shell out for Halfweight Full Plate you could tumble in it. It's a +3 enhancement from Underdark though, so not applicable to E6.

[Nifft]

Still, I'm not interested in taking six levels of fighter - sure +10 damage looks good, but that is a lot of feats and it only comes online late. And +10 damage is only about +3d6 sneak attack, which my build has...


I think the poster meant that you get +10 damage in addition to your +3d6 Sneak Attack from 6 levels of Sneak Thug Fighter.

[DEMON]

Another build could be Thug 3/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw.
You'll still get 3d6 sneak attack, int to damage, weapon finesse, more skill points, better ref and better will compared to your build, while losing maneuvers and stance.

Technically, 4d6. Fighter 3 gives you +2d6 and Swashbuckler 3 stacks with Rogue levels (3+0) for another +2d6. Craven for static +6 on top of the dice.

Hit-and-Run Tactics SA Fighter 3 / Swashbuckler 3 would also give you situational Dex and Int to damage. The Shadow Blade feat would add Dex to damage once again. As a side note, all of these are also Spiked-chain-friendly, if one doesn't want to go the dual-wielding route.

SA Fighter 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Warblade 4 with the Assassin's Stance stance should also qualify you for Daring Outlaw and give you the same SA amount: +1d6 for Fighter 1, +1d6 for Swashbuckler 1 (+0 Rogue levels), +2d6 from Assassin's Stance. Warblade would also allow you to refresh the maneuvers (such as the Cloak of Deception) in combat.

[noce]

SA Fighter 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Warblade 4 with the Assassin's Stance stance should also qualify you for Daring Outlaw.

This one doesn't work, you need Swash 2 to qualify for Daring Outlaw.

[DEMON]

This one doesn't work, you need Swash 2 to qualify for Daring Outlaw.

Right you are, my bad.

Corrected, thanks.