Binder/Crusader.

[Metahuman1]

So, I've got a couple of players whom are going to be leaving my on coming game within the next month or so due to work scheduling issues. My old foe, real life, strikes again.

So, I've got a couple of new friends interested in alternating in to fill in the slots.

1 of them has expressed interest in doing a Binder/Crusader build. And, I had a thought. I know there's no Official Tome of Battle/Binder Prestige Class, but I was wondering, if I wanted to repurpose Ruby Knight Vindicator to use Pact Magic instead of Cleric Casting, how would I need to go about doing that?


I would want it to come out mid to high end Tier 3, maybe a bit more would be acceptable. (We have a Wizard, Cleric and Artificer in the party already, So, if it wound up Tier 2 it wouldn't really hurt anything, though the only thing I can think of that would do that would be the one Vestige with the Summon Monster Ability. )

[Nifft]

There's a generic Gestalt class here: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427306-Prestige-Class-Gestalt-Theurge

IMHO it's perfectly viable for cases like this one, and not unbalanced at all.


If you want a custom class, RKV is a good start. You'll want to change the Turn Undead features, of course.

You'll also probably want to grant full Binder progression (since Binder progression is at least one tier, probably more, below Cleric casting).


For simplicity, you could just go something like:
- Full BAB.
- One good save (Fort or Will).
- Full Vestige level & number progression (but not Binder class features; like an Anima Mage basically).
- Maneuvers from TWO schools instead of three. New Stances at levels 5 and 10. New maneuver learned every other level.

Replacements for these:
Divine Recovery (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, you can channel divine power to recharge your martial maneuvers. You can expend a turn or rebuke undead attempt as a swift action to recover one expended maneuver. If you are a crusader, the maneuver you recover is immediately available to you as a granted maneuver.

Armored Stealth (Ex): Knights-vindicator are taught unusual techniques for staying out of sight. Starting at 5th level, you no longer take an armor check penalty on Hide checks. Your armor check penalty still applies to any other skills affected by armor check penalties.

Divine Impetus (Su): At 7th level, you learn how to use the divine power of the Stern Lady to quicken your reactions and act without hesitation. You can expend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to gain one additional swift action this round. For example, you could use this ability to both change your stance and initiate a boost maneuver in the same turn, or if you initiated a counter before your turn, you can activate this ability and then initiate a boost on your turn.

Divine Fury (Su): From 9th level on, you can directly channel Wee Jas's divine energy into your martial strikes. As a free action, you can spend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to add a +4 sacred (or profane, if you are evil) bonus on your attack roll with one martial strike this turn. In addition to its normal effects, the strike deals an extra 1d10 points of damage.


Vestigial Maneuver (Su): At 2nd level, you can force a Vestige to focus on your survival instead of experiencing the world through your link. As a free action once per round, you can temporarily sacrifice any one ability granted by one of your Vestiges to immediately recover any one maneuver. If you are a Crusader, the maneuver is also immediately granted. The sacrificed ability is unavailable until the encounter ends and you have 5 minutes to relax.

Armored Skill (Su): Starting at 4th level, if a bound Vestige grants you a bonus on a skill and that skill is subject to an armor check penalty, you can subtract half of your class level from the armor check penalty.

Vestigial Recovery (Ex): Starting at 8th level, when you recover one or more maneuvers, you can also recover the use of one Vestige ability which is currently subject to cooldown of 5 turns or less.

[Metahuman1]

With out the summon vestige, which I may simply disallow that 1 vestige, the binder is Tier 3. So, Binder Vestiges, sans 1 single specific vestige, are a full two tiers below Cleric Casting.



I might put the sacrificed ability for Vestigial Maneuver on a shorter timer, again, it's not like it's cleric casting or anything. And I think I might just let them have both the good Fort and Will saves. That way it can be played on the tanky side if so inclined.



Apart from that, what should the prerequsites look like do you think?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9 is actually a fantastic build that can tank, deal damage, and heal during combat without sacrificing any attacks. He'll need to always bind Naberius because he'll need the fast ability healing for Hellreaver's 5th level ability. He'll actually want an odd-numbered stat on Con, since that deals 2 Con damage when he uses it and he'll heal 1 point of that on the same turn, leaving him down by one point for one round every ~7-9 turns. That build still gets 9th level maneuvers and stances, and can heal himself or someone else for 20 points every round as a swift action, among other benefits.

I'd go Warforged with that, get Adamantine Body and use a shield with the slam attack that adds 1.5x Str to damage. He'll want to use a martial strike every turn since he can't full attack with that, but he should be able to contribute a decent amount of damage while adding tons of support to the party. Shield Specialization and Shield Ward in PH2 are great choices for this, along with Stone Power and even Extra Smiting in CW.

Another good race to use for this is Dragonborn of Bahamut, get the heart aspect for a breath attack and take Entangling Exhalation in that same book to keep the opponents debuffed and taking damage every round. This will hinder them enough to prevent them from just running past the tanky character to attack physically weaker PCs, and it will present him as a credible threat that should be dealt with. This also gives him something to do on the turns that he's not granted any very useful maneuvers. You can even add Dragonborn onto a Warforged, he'll keep his type and the Living Construct subtype and everything that goes with it, he can still get Adamantine Body, and he may even be able to keep the slam attack since it's a physical quality, depending on how the DM rules it.

[Nifft]

With out the summon vestige, which I may simply disallow that 1 vestige, the binder is Tier 3. So, Binder Vestiges, sans 1 single specific vestige, are a full two tiers below Cleric Casting.



I might put the sacrificed ability for Vestigial Maneuver on a shorter timer, again, it's not like it's cleric casting or anything. And I think I might just let them have both the good Fort and Will saves. That way it can be played on the tanky side if so inclined.



Apart from that, what should the prerequsites look like do you think?

Pact Augmentation (so level 2 Binder) and Zealous Surge (so level 3 Crusader). The even level of Binder gives you +1 IL, and the Binder progression pain can be moderated with a feat.

Ooo, that gives me an idea for another feature.

Bound Knight Vindicator could give extra Pact Augmentation at levels 3 and 9, maybe. Also, at level 1, add to your Pact Augmentation list:
Increase your Steely Resolve by 5, to a maximum total of 30

[Metahuman1]

Biffoniacus_Furiou: That is an awesome build and I am totally using that in some other game sometime!

However, because the player, while interested, has little experience with either supplement (and one of the things they find most interesting is that I said Tome of Battle Classes tend to Multyclass better than many None Tome of Battle classes.) I feel like a straight class/class/thurge of the two classes, may be best to help them learn on.






Nifft: Sounds good to me actually! =)

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Why ban the summon monster vestige? Zceryll isn't really broken, it's just far better than all other Vestiges. But unless the party is entirely composed of Rangers or something (unlikely if you're letting him play a Crusader) it won't outshine even moderately optimized Sorcerers or Clerics. The five round limit means that often summons aren't very numerous in one battle, the best ones are often too large or visible to be used, and the summon ability doesn't really come online until about level 12 (before that the stuff that can be summoned isn't actually that great except as temporary meatshields (not so useful for a Crusader) and out of combat healing).

What will the rest of the party be like?

And on another note: why even multiclass? Did he think of taking Bind Vestige and subsequent feats to bind a few low-level vestiges without multiclassing? If the game won't get past low levels, this is a pretty solid option.

[Metahuman1]

Because I do plan for the game to get past low level. Though you do make a point about the summon vestige being less powerful in combat and much better as a utility option. Combined with Buer, out of combat healing get's covered, and stealth can be assistant.

[Nifft]

Zceryll kinda is broken, and not just in the way-too-strong sense.

It doesn't define the duration of the primary summoning ability, nor does it have the usual Binder restriction on simultaneous parallel effect duration.


Here's how I make Zceryll work:

- Alien Mind: You get this as described.

- Bolts of Madness: You get this as described.

- Alien Form + Telepathy + Mindsight: These represent Zceryll's physical influence. You get these UNTIL you use the Summon Alien ability, at which point you externalize Zceryll's physical influence.

- Summon Alien: This works like Summon Monster, except you can only ever summon one creature, and the creature remains until you dismiss it (as a free action) or until it dies. After the creature is dead or gone, you immediately regain the Alien Form + Telepathy + Mindsight abilities, and you cannot use the Summon Alien ability for 5 rounds.


Note that I also beef up some of the other Vestiges, like one of the Psionic Vestiges has an analogous "you can manifest Astral Construct, augmented up to your EBL; after it's dismissed or destroyed you cannot manifest a new one for 5 rounds", but Zceryll remains a top-tier pick.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I just make the summon creature effect last as long as a Summon Monster spell. Using it is still a standard action, by RAW (it's a Su ability).
And by RAW, you can't really buff yourself with this: spells cast by summoned creatures end when they vanish or die. And summoned creatures can't Planeshift or go ethereal.

So the Zceryll vestige is great for utility but can rarely "solve" a given situation until the very high levels... When this will be normal.

About Theurging: I'd let them keep all their class ability progressions, but slow them by several levels and remove their final advancement (so the delayed damage pool wouldn't reach 30 for example).