3.5e Can a Hengeyokai cast in animal form?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

I am planning to play a Sparrow Hengeyokai Warlock and I want to know if they can use somatic components in animal​ form.

I know the Tabbits can't but it seems like a different type of changing form.

[Forrestfire]

From the Monster Manual, page 315:


A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

From the Monster Manual, page 315:
Thank you :)

[Darrin]

That's not entirely ironclad. The rules are ambiguous over how exactly you define a "spellcasting creature". Presumably it would be a creature that has innate spellcasting, or a "Spells:" ability in its stat block. Essentially it means that if a creature's monster entry describes it as having spellcasting, and it doesn't have hands as part of its normal physiology, then it can cast normally by using whatever appendage most closely resembles a "hand" to satisfy any somatic components. This is most likely to prevent disgruntled PCs from calling NOPESIES: "Hey, that thing cant' cast spells at us, it doesn't have hands!"

For hengeyokai, this can be interpreted in different ways. A sparrow has "arms" that have evolved into wings. You could say that there is enough of the bone structure left that it can move its wings to make somatic gestures. Youl could also say that it has claws for feet, and these resemble hands enough that they could make somatic gestures.

The problem with that is the basic hengeyokai monster entry does not mention any type of innate spellcasting. So you could say the MM text doesn't apply here... since they are not "native" spellcasters, they need some other method to provide somatic gestures. That would be a feat in Savage Species called Surrogate Spellcasting, which allows creatures that can turn into non-humanoid forms to use basic grunts and various appendages to provide verbal and somatic components.

However, there is no definitive RAW text that defines what "innate spellcasting" should be, or what creatures have it. If you go by the Savage Species rules, Surrogate Spellcasting (or some other similar feat) is required if you are in a non-humanoid form trying to cast spells. However, the Monster Manual was printed after Savage Species, so it could be said to take precedence over that book. If you go strictly by the RAW in the Monster Manual, then you don't ever need to take Surrogate Spellcasting, as it's redundant. However, by the same argument, wild-shaping druids would never need to take Natural Spell, as that is also redundant.

On the gripping hand... it's largely a DM's Call.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That's not entirely ironclad. The rules are ambiguous over how exactly you define a "spellcasting creature". Presumably it would be a creature that has innate spellcasting, or a "Spells:" ability in its stat block. Essentially it means that if a creature's monster entry describes it as having spellcasting, and it doesn't have hands as part of its normal physiology, then it can cast normally by using whatever appendage most closely resembles a "hand" to satisfy any somatic components. This is most likely to prevent disgruntled PCs from calling NOPESIES: "Hey, that thing cant' cast spells at us, it doesn't have hands!"

For hengeyokai, this can be interpreted in different ways. A sparrow has "arms" that have evolved into wings. You could say that there is enough of the bone structure left that it can move its wings to make somatic gestures. Youl could also say that it has claws for feet, and these resemble hands enough that they could make somatic gestures.

The problem with that is the basic hengeyokai monster entry does not mention any type of innate spellcasting. So you could say the MM text doesn't apply here... since they are not "native" spellcasters, they need some other method to provide somatic gestures. That would be a feat in Savage Species called Surrogate Spellcasting, which allows creatures that can turn into non-humanoid forms to use basic grunts and various appendages to provide verbal and somatic components.

However, there is no definitive RAW text that defines what "innate spellcasting" should be, or what creatures have it. If you go by the Savage Species rules, Surrogate Spellcasting (or some other similar feat) is required if you are in a non-humanoid form trying to cast spells. However, the Monster Manual was printed after Savage Species, so it could be said to take precedence over that book. If you go strictly by the RAW in the Monster Manual, then you don't ever need to take Surrogate Spellcasting, as it's redundant. However, by the same argument, wild-shaping druids would never need to take Natural Spell, as that is also redundant.

On the gripping hand... it's largely a DM's Call.

Thanks man:)
Because I am the one making the call in my group I think I will have to take it :)

[PrismCat21]

Thanks man:)
Because I am the one making the call in my group I think I will have to take it :)

Good call :)
To me, that is the RAI. I've only met one person irl that tried to argue otherwise, and I never played a session with him where he didn't try to cheat. So...

[Holya]

Just take Surrogate Spellcasting from savage species. Its basically natural spell for the druids wild shape but for any form of shape changing. So a single feat now lets you click your claws and caw at people then boom fireball firing from your perch or from your burrow. All depends on the animal form. For those races with natural shapeshifting like tibbets and the animal folk from U.E. it fits better then using the monster rulings and it doesn't require you to homerule natural spell works for all shape shifting effects instead of just wildshape.

[Darrin]

Just take Surrogate Spellcasting from savage species. Its basically natural spell for the druids wild shape but for any form of shape changing.

It's not quite as easy as "just take this feat". It does have a Wis 13 requirement, and Hengeyokai have a -2 Wis penalty regardless of their form. So if you're using point-buy, it can be problematic to have to put a 15 in Wis to start with, particularly if you're not a divine caster and have no other use for a high Wis.

[WhiteBread]

I would say yes they can. As the fluff and real lore suggests that Hengeyokai are animals that are capable of transforming into humans and not the other way round. They get their class levels on top of their wolf/bird/carp whatever form. So if you would want to restrict spellcasting it would be in human form. You also wouldn't take a -2 hit on Wis if that race was so restricting.
If my DM would restrict me from casting because of my race I probably would give him a wierd look for an undeserved nerf. Then I would get a new character sheet and move on.