A mage who doesn't understand magic

[Oracle71]

So, I have an idea for a sorceror character. Her backstory is that she was a slave in or around Calimshan in the Realms, who escaped when she started manifesting her sorceror powers, but having grown up a slave, she doesn't have any formal education, so she has no ranks in either know: (arcana) or spellcraft.

So, what would be some good options for Prcs (preferably full casting) and feats that would work with someone who casts spells by pure instinct? She will learn something about the nature of magic as her power grows (taking some skill ranks at later levels), so very low skill ranks would be fine, but I am trying to avoid ranks much above 5 until she starts approaching 20th level.

So far I'm looking at Sandshaper, as it fits her background well, but I can use some other ideas, too.

[Nifft]

Urban Savant demands 8 ranks in one skill, which might be Knowledge (local), and then 2 ranks in a few other skills.

Blood Magus requires 4 ranks in Concentration, and two feats which are reasonably appropriate for a former slave.

Ruathar requires no ranks once she's got level 3 spellcasting.

Abjurant Champion requires BAB +5 but no skill ranks.

Anima Mage requires Intimidate 4 and Kn(planes) 4, plus a level of Binder and the Improved Binding feat.

Dread Witch requires only 3 ranks of Kn(arcana).


And then there's Sea Witch, which requires no skills, but I hesitate to mention it because the class features don't merit losing 2 caster levels.

[lbuttitta]

Seconding Blood Magus, which, for those not adept in Google-fu, is from Complete Arcane, although the fluff requirements may be hard to fulfill for a former slave.
Also, I'd just like to reference this handy spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit#gid=691970088) for your purposes. There's a column for skill prerequisites.

[Fizban]

It should also be noted:

-Urban Savant's secondary skills are all knowledges, and it requires either Bardic Knowledge or even more knowledge to get in.
-Blood Magus did get improved from its 3.0 version, but still loses two casting levels for basically chump abilities -which is really annoying because it should be awesome. It also has that whole "died and came back to life" thing.

If you're already interested in Sand Shaper you might as well stop there since nothing is going to match it, not under those conditions anyway. If you could get Blood Magus with full casting, it'd still have a bunch of class features you can't seriously use: crafting scrolls and potions is not very useful for a sorcerer unless you're getting someone else to cast the spells for you and the homunculus gives you permanent hp loss so you have to baby it.

Lesse, for 4 ranks you could get into Arcane Trickster, costs around 3 casting levels thanks to sneak attack requirement. Same track, Unseen Seer only takes 4 in spellcraft.

Speaking of that 3.0 blast from the past: Candlecaster. Only skill requirement is 6 ranks of Craft (candlemaking), plus the usual 3rd level spells and Great Fortitude for whatever reason (and you need a big box of matches). This is another one that gives you Scribe Scroll in an alternate medium, except you'd actually have a reason to use it- free metamagic feats usable only when scribing candles, leading up to the ability to make candles that you light with one action which then trigger two spells (in sequence, then later simultaneously). Obviously it's better for wizard, because everything is better for wizard, but a sorcerer can get plenty of use out of dipped/striped candles, getting extra spells out, possibly even with metamagic that would normally slow them down. With full casting progression and the cost of only one feat- wizards actually have bonus feats to lose in the trade, but not a sorc. Don't forget you can get access to spells for crafting via other magic items, so a Runestaff or even another scroll is a perfectly valid source for setting up a particular combo-candle.

Oh, and in before someone says not having spellcraft is a death sentence.

[Avigor]

Depending on how much you favor fluff over crunch, Rage Mage from Complete Warrior is also a possibility, especially if you like the idea of going gish which IMO makes some sense. Otherwise, some sort of blaster focus makes the most sense to me.

[Psyren]

Primitive Caster might be thematic - your character doesn't really know what they're doing, so they throw in extra magic words (gibberish) and arm-waving that aren't actually necessary, but you actually get a mechanical benefit for doing so.

The real issue here though is that Sorcerers don't have class features, so you're compelled to find something you can take that doesn't need Spellcraft/Arcana, but that gives you some kind of feature to fill all those empty levels. To which I would suggest the Pathfinder Sorcerer as you can be as dumb as a box of rocks if you want, but still have stuff to look forward to as you level, without needing to book-dive for PrCs.

[Mr Adventurer]

Rage Mage is trash and the class should feel bad for promising so much and delivering so little.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

How important are Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) anyway?

[Avigor]

How important are Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) anyway?

Most PrC's require at least one, if not both. Plus, it lets you actually know what the various magics are, it lets you use other people's spellbooks, etc.

[Psyren]

Most PrC's require at least one, if not both. Plus, it lets you actually know what the various magics are, it lets you use other people's spellbooks, etc.

It also usually lets you find out (in-universe) about most PrCs to begin with.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It also usually lets you find out (in-universe) about most PrCs to begin with.

That assumes the PrCs are a thing you can find out about, rather than an OoC construct. I mean, some certainly exist in game, because they're connected to a specific organisation or something, but there might not be any such thing as an 'Eldritch Knight' in universe any more than there is such a thing as a 'Rogue'.

[Psyren]

That assumes the PrCs are a thing you can find out about, rather than an OoC construct. I mean, some certainly exist in game, because they're connected to a specific organisation or something, but there might not be any such thing as an 'Eldritch Knight' in universe any more than there is such a thing as a 'Rogue'.

They are. Most PrCs have a passage like this in their entries:


ABJURANT CHAMPION LORE

Characters who have ranks in Knowledge (arcana) or the bardic knowledge ability can research abjurant champions to learn more about them. When a character makes a successful skill check or bardic knowledge check, read or paraphrase the following, including the information from lower DCs.

DC 10: Mystic warriors? Soldiers who can swing a sword and cast spells, I think.

DC 15: Oh, yeah, I've heard of the champions. They learn how to use their magic to fight better on the battlefield. It's not flashy, but it works.

DC 20: Abjurant champions can cast a wide variety of spells, depending on what they've studied, but they're particularly skilled at casting defensive spells. They can cast them much faster than normal.

DC 30: Characters who achieve this level of success can learn important details about specific abjurant champions in your campaign, including notable members, the areas where they operate, and the kinds of activities they undertake.

This is why the Knowledge skills are important for casters who want to PrC.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

They are. Most PrCs have a passage like this in their entries:



This is why the Knowledge skills are important for casters who want to PrC.

I think you'll find that's only the case for prestige classes introduced in a few certain books (mostly the later ones, like Complete Mage). Notably for this case, the Complete Arcane PrCs (such as the Blood Magus discussed above) are not among this number.

[Psyren]

I think you'll find that's only the case for prestige classes introduced in a few certain books (mostly the later ones, like Complete Mage). Notably for this case, the Complete Arcane PrCs (such as the Blood Magus discussed above) are not among this number.

(a) That still leaves plenty to choose from even if you're strict.

(b) The formula is largely the same for each (DC 30 for specific individuals etc.) so it's not hard to back into a general formula for researching PrCs that way.

(c) Bardic Knowledge will turn up info about them whether there's a specific entry or not, so there is a way to uncover them in-universe. Divinations work too, especially when deities likely know the sitch and can pass it on.

[Nifft]

(b) The formula is largely the same for each (DC 30 for specific individuals etc.) so it's not hard to back into a general formula for researching PrCs that way.

While this is true, it looks like they're set up for researching PrCs as adversaries.

It's more like a monster lore table than an onboarding guide.

[Psyren]

While this is true, it looks like they're set up for researching PrCs as adversaries.

It's more like a monster lore table than an onboarding guide.

It doesn't have to be adversarial, just as monsters don't have to be enemies either. It's just to find out about them. You might need the capabilities of a very specific NPC to bypass a plot obstacle for instance, and a check like this would help you know where to start looking.

[Jormengand]

I think you'll find that's only the case for prestige classes introduced in a few certain books (mostly the later ones, like Complete Mage).

It's implied as early as the original prestige classes that the prestige classes represent organisations which one might join or learn of ("The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins"), though.

[Crake]

It's implied as early as the original prestige classes that the prestige classes represent organisations which one might join or learn of ("The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins"), though.

Damn, beat me to it, was just about to mention this :smalltongue: Seems a lot of people lost sight of the initial intended purpose for prestige clases, and that they were actually meant to be a world building tool for DMs. I wonder how many people have homebrewed prestige classes for their campaign settings at all.

[Sapreaver]

It should also be noted:

-Urban Savant's secondary skills are all knowledges, and it requires either Bardic Knowledge or even more knowledge to get in.
-Blood Magus did get improved from its 3.0 version, but still loses two casting levels for basically chump abilities -which is really annoying because it should be awesome. It also has that whole "died and came back to life" thing.

If you're already interested in Sand Shaper you might as well stop there since nothing is going to match it, not under those conditions anyway. If you could get Blood Magus with full casting, it'd still have a bunch of class features you can't seriously use: crafting scrolls and potions is not very useful for a sorcerer unless you're getting someone else to cast the spells for you and the homunculus gives you permanent hp loss so you have to baby it.

Lesse, for 4 ranks you could get into Arcane Trickster, costs around 3 casting levels thanks to sneak attack requirement. Same track, Unseen Seer only takes 4 in spellcraft.

Speaking of that 3.0 blast from the past: Candlecaster. Only skill requirement is 6 ranks of Craft (candlemaking), plus the usual 3rd level spells and Great Fortitude for whatever reason (and you need a big box of matches). This is another one that gives you Scribe Scroll in an alternate medium, except you'd actually have a reason to use it- free metamagic feats usable only when scribing candles, leading up to the ability to make candles that you light with one action which then trigger two spells (in sequence, then later simultaneously). Obviously it's better for wizard, because everything is better for wizard, but a sorcerer can get plenty of use out of dipped/striped candles, getting extra spells out, possibly even with metamagic that would normally slow them down. With full casting progression and the cost of only one feat- wizards actually have bonus feats to lose in the trade, but not a sorc. Don't forget you can get access to spells for crafting via other magic items, so a Runestaff or even another scroll is a perfectly valid source for setting up a particular combo-candle.

Oh, and in before someone says not having spellcraft is a death sentence.

Candle casting is a actually a really cool mechanic lol

[Oracle71]

Thank you for all of the suggestions! There are quite a few in there that I had compeletely forgotten about, or never seriously considered. Candle caster in particular, because candles? Seriously?! But as horrible or lame as I think the fluff is, the actual mechanics are great for this concept. SO I have decided to refluff the candle caster as something a little more generic, like "talisman caster." Same mechanics and entry requirements, except instead of craft: candles it would be craft: (any) and your "talismans" would have to be whatever types of objects you craft. And since candle caster gives you a virtual Brew Potion feat, that also opens up Master Alchemist.

The build that I am working on then will be Sorcerer6/sand shaper2/candle (talisman) caster4/Master Alchemist8. It does require a little bit of compromise, because she would have to take ranks in spellcraft a little earlier than I had envisioned, but it is still pretty close to the original concept. With access to the arcane disciple feat taken at either level 9 or 12, she can start to borrow the wizard's spellbook for her talisman/candle crafting just about the same time she is starting to really understand the nuances of spellcasting and the nature of magic (i.e. the spellcraft and know: arcana skills).

Again, thank you playgrounders.