Shapeshift Druid without spellcasting - What power level?

[Hish]

What power level would a Shapeshift (PHBII) Druid be without spellcasting? Is it about equal to an NPC class, a low-tier PC class, or somewhere in the middle?

I'm asking for an NPC of mine. I'm wondering how much of a handicap to give him.

[ngilop]

What power level would a Shapeshift (PHBII) Druid be without spellcasting? Is it about equal to an NPC class, a low-tier PC class, or somewhere in the middle?

I'm asking for an NPC of mine. I'm wondering how much of a handicap to give him.

I'd say more powerful than a Fighter but less powerful than shapeshift ranger. SO probably high 'tier'4 or low 'tier' 3.

[Fouredged Sword]

The inability to use magic items renders it tier 4 or 5 after level 6 or so.

[Nifft]

On par with Barbarian.

Specifically, a Shapeshifter:
- trades full BAB for good Will save;
- trades weapon attacks for at-will no-Fatigue usage;
- Rage has better feat support, but Shapeshift has at-will Flight at level 5.

Both Barbarian and Shapeshift Druid have a reasonable number of other class features -- especially if you allow ACF trading of those features, trading for better features like Trapkiller (replacing Trap Sense) and Iron Constitution (replacing Resist Nature's Lure).

So, yeah: high T4.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mmm... let's see...

You have a pretty mediocre chassis (medium BAB and HD, passable-but-not-great skills)
You've got a couple weak-but-flavorful abilities.
The pros of Shapeshift: Disguise-based utility, at-will flight at a pretty low level, generous enhancement bonuses to Strength. Ferocious Slayer is a pretty decent base form, with three attacks and size bonuses to reach, trip, grapple, that sort of thing. The fact that you're getting primary stat boosts for free effectively increases your WBL slightly.
The cons of Shapeshift: Predator Form fades quickly (the +4 Str is nice at low levels, but a single d6 bite gets old fast), and Aerial Form is almost useless in a fight. The natural armor bonuses aren't spectacular, meaning you have to invest heavily in Dex as well as Str. But the biggest problem might be items. The bonuses are enchantment, so they don't stack with most spells or magic items, and because the ability is very definitely not Wild Shape, the usual ways of keeping your magic items functioning (Wilding Clasps, Wild/Beastskin armor, etc) don't work. (I guess you could maaaybe buy barding and magic items sized for your alternate forms, but god only knows how that works by RAW when you shift back or shift directly into another form-- and locking you into a single form)


You'll want to be an Elan or Dragonwrought Kobold, probably, so you can qualify for Rapidstrike, and you'll probably want Warshaper ASAP. A Fist of the Forest dip would be solid too. And honestly, this might be one of the few times that you actually want Vow of Poverty, since you're going to have so much trouble using items anyway. Something like VoP Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/mangled-Druid 8/Warshaper 3/Fist of the Forest 1 would be a solid character, but it's going to take a long time for that to bloom.

On the whole, then, "Vaguely-functional-with-major-flaws-that-need-to-be-built-around" says Tier 5 to me. Even if you fix the magic item problems, you're still faced with a kind of spikey power curve-- you start out pretty solid, then fade around when Aerial Form fails to upgrade your combat power, then jump back to normal when Ferocious Slayer comes in, then fade a bit when Forest Avenger is iffy.

[Hish]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Now what if I wanted to add arcane spells back in to bring it up to Tier 3? How much casting is needed? Would psionics be more suitable?

[Nifft]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Now what if I wanted to add arcane spells back in to bring it up to Tier 3? How much casting is needed? Would psionics be more suitable?

Arcane casting is usually T1 or T2.

Psionics is generally T2.

Which Tier system are you using? Which Arcane casters are T3 in that system?

[Hish]

I was thinking half casting or something. I guess half casting is hardly worth anything, and full casting is more powerful than I want.

[daremetoidareyo]

I was thinking half casting or something. I guess half casting is hardly worth anything, and full casting is more powerful than I want.

bard casting

[Hish]

I thought of bard casting. Would it bring the class up to a mid power level?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Now what if I wanted to add arcane spells back in to bring it up to Tier 3? How much casting is needed? Would psionics be more suitable?
5th to 6th level casting ought to do the trick-- Duskblade, Psychic Rogue, Bard, or Psychic Warrior, basically. I'd probably say 6ths for arcane and 5ths for psionic, since the latter plays much more nicely with the shapeshifting.

But I dunno how much you really need. I'd start by revising the shapeshifting like so...

The ability counts as Wild Shape for the purposes of prerequisites and items, and is advanced by PrCs that advance Wild Shape. The assorted stat, save, and NA bonuses are all untyped. (This fixes the "can't use items properly" problem. If you want to be really generous, you could even allow magic items to continue functioning when absorbed)
Predator Form gains scent, and grants the wolf's Trip at 4th instead of Mobility.
Aerial Form has two primary talon attacks, not one. At 7th level, it can use both while using Flyby Attack.
Ferocious Slayer gains scent, and grants Improved Grab at 12th instead of Improved Critical.
Forest Avenger boosts you two size categories, and gains plant immunities at 14th.
Elemental Fury can attack twice with each slam attack, deals 2d6 energy damage with every hit and every time it gets hit in melee, and gains whatever movement mode the original had. At 18th level, it increases three size categories.

That gives you a fairly capable shapeshifter-fighter type with a couple different options and a better power curve. You could throw in a bit of spellcasting or manifesting if you want, but it shouldn't need much. You might get there with just a HD and skill upgrade.

--------

EDIT: Actually, why not just use Pathfinder's Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter/) for a T3 Druid-lite? The Feral Hunter archetype seems like it does exactly what you want here-- PF's Wild Shape works a lot like an idealized Shapeshift, with a small stat boost and a couple special abilities off a menu.

[Nifft]

With bard casting, would the class be around T3?

What tier is Bard in the Tier system that you are using?

[Hish]

5th to 6th level casting ought to do the trick-- Duskblade, Psychic Rogue, Bard, or Psychic Warrior, basically. I'd probably say 6ths for arcane and 5ths for psionic, since the latter plays much more nicely with the shapeshifting.

But I dunno how much you really need. I'd start by revising the shapeshifting like so...

The ability counts as Wild Shape for the purposes of prerequisites and items, and is advanced by PrCs that advance Wild Shape. The assorted stat, save, and NA bonuses are all untyped. (This fixes the "can't use items properly" problem. If you want to be really generous, you could even allow magic items to continue functioning when absorbed)
Predator Form gains scent, and grants the wolf's Trip at 4th instead of Mobility.
Aerial Form has two primary talon attacks, not one. At 7th level, it can use both while using Flyby Attack.
Ferocious Slayer gains scent, and grants Improved Grab at 12th instead of Improved Critical.
Forest Avenger boosts you two size categories, and gains plant immunities at 14th.
Elemental Fury can attack twice with each slam attack, deals 2d6 energy damage with every hit and every time it gets hit in melee, and gains whatever movement mode the original had. At 18th level, it increases three size categories.

That gives you a fairly capable shapeshifter-fighter type with a couple different options and a better power curve. You could throw in a bit of spellcasting or manifesting if you want, but it shouldn't need much. You might get there with just a HD and skill upgrade.

--------

EDIT: Actually, why not just use Pathfinder's Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter/) for a T3 Druid-lite? The Feral Hunter archetype seems like it does exactly what you want here-- PF's Wild Shape works a lot like an idealized Shapeshift, with a small stat boost and a couple special abilities off a menu.

I think I will probably use those changes to shapechange and chassis, and skip the casting. That looks like what I want. Of course, only if you don't mind.

I wanted a class that gave shapeshifing. Specifically for a warforged that is mostly just a transformer, so I didn't really want the divine/nature feel.


What tier is Bard in the Tier system that you are using?

That wasn't exactly what I meant to say. I don't have any concrete rating for classes; I just wanted to bring the class to a middling power level. (I edited my post. I didn't think anyone had responded to it yet, otherwise I would have left it in and addendum'd it.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think I will probably use those changes to shapechange and chassis, and skip the casting. That looks like what I want. Of course, only if you don't mind.

I wanted a class that gave shapeshifing. Specifically for a warforged that is mostly just a transformer, so I didn't really want the divine/nature feel.
Of course; glad I could help. If you want something a little more elaborate, you could take a peek at this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328962-The-Beastman-Revised-%28PEACH%29&p=16914183#post16914183)?