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Person_Man
2007-08-17, 03:06 PM
So, by now you've probably seen this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816a):


In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like “the 20-level race.” In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you’d get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf’s Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

I vote NO to 30 levels.

30 levels will destroy my ability to port my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 edition content in your new 4.0 game, and it creates needless extra levels of complexity to worry about and build towards when I create my 1st level character. Seriously, it took me 3 years of gaming to take my favorite Druid from level 1 to level 20. Once you get to 20th+ levels, normal game play just breaks down entirely (Wish, Time Stop, etc). So why add levels 21-30?

Discuss.

If you'd like to debate racial power progression, I've created this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3052101#post3052101). Thanks.

Ichneumon
2007-08-17, 03:10 PM
I think/hope they used the normal power progression, and made epic into the rules, so the first 20 levels equal the old 20 levels in power.

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-17, 03:10 PM
I don't know how hugely continuity-breaking that would be. If they spread the class abilities and powers out across 30 levels rather than 20 levels, I don't really see a huge problem. They're rewriting the game here (I hope), not just coming out with 3.666.

I do like the idea of racial abilities being spread out across the life of the character. That makes it so that Dwarves and Humans aren't quite so dominant at early levels when their racial abilities greatly outshine a number of class abilities.

Generic PC
2007-08-17, 03:13 PM
I think the Thirty levels thing is a way to throw more things into a class, hopefully balancing it out between levels, because you reduce the power curve. That being said, if you get 9th level spells at level 17 still, i doubt Timestop, Gate, Etc. would still be there. they would be 14th level or something...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-17, 03:15 PM
So, by now you've probably seen this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816a):


In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like “the 20-level race.” In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you’d get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf’s Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

I vote No to 30 levels.

30 levels will destroy my ability to port my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 edition content in your new 4.0 game, and it creates needless extra levels of complexity to worry about and build towards when I create my 1st level character. Seriously, it took me 3 years of gaming to take my favorite Druid from level 1 to level 20. Once you get to 20th+ levels, normal game play just breaks down entirely (Wish, Time Stop, etc). So why add levels 21-30?

Discuss.

If you'd like to debate racial power progression, I've created this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3052101#post3052101). Thanks.

You know, I felt the same damn way when I discovered the Epic Level Handbook...except of course for that first point about it ruining the porting of your 3.x content to 4th. And for that, I have to ask...how exactly is it different than the massive set of paradigm shifts that were required in porting from 2nd to 3rd Edition, which you implied you had done? AD&D and 3rd Edition D&D were nothing alike, in experience tables, class features, power curve...you had to do everything over then anyway.

Indon
2007-08-17, 03:16 PM
I'm good with thirty.

Really, as far as I'm concerned, AD&D only had 10 levels of progression. Non-HD levels were 3'rd edition's version of "Epic", in my view, though of course the power levels were different.

And converting to 4'ed from 3'rd ed can't be much different than converting from AD&D to 3'rd ed. "Which save does Rods and Staves fall under?" :P

tainsouvra
2007-08-17, 03:16 PM
I suspect they're simply making the increasingly-popular epic games more integrated.

Brianish
2007-08-17, 03:17 PM
I suspect spells are gonna continue to be gained at roughly the same level as before, you're just going to continue for a while after first gaining 9th level spells.

Metamagic anyone?

Rob Knotts
2007-08-17, 03:31 PM
Ryan Dancey (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6899494&postcount=12)(02-07-2007):
D&D 3/3.5, by design, changes roughly every 5 levels. You may find that your group becomes comfortable in one of those 4 quartiles, or you may find that your group enjoys the changes of pace that happen when moving from quartile to quartile.My guess is that the two new "quartiles" (sextiles?) are intended to integrate epic-level play more smoothly with the core system rather than treating epic levels as a seperate set of optional rules. In other words, progressing into epic levels will probably inflict less of system shock for DMs, players, thier characters, and the setting thier characters exist in.

Matthew
2007-08-17, 03:33 PM
I agree with Nerd O Rama; having converted Characters over from previous editions into 3e, I have to say that it's not as complicated as people make out. Even direct level to level transfer should work fine. Once the Characters are in the new edition, they quickly acclimate to the new conditions. I expect the same from 3e Characters moved into 4e.

GNUsNotUnix
2007-08-17, 03:43 PM
If they spread the current twenty levels over thirty, then you have to adjust current characters to 3/2 current level. Boo-hoo; that's not as rough as it sounds. Knowing Wizards, they'll have instructions for conversion. Besides, the switch from 2nd edition multiclassing to 3rd edition multiclassing wasn't exactly smooth, either, but no one complained because 3rd edition multiclassing is better, far more streamlined than 2nd ever was.

If they just add ten levels to the current twenty, fine! I'd be glad to see some somewhat-epic rules that aren't horridly broken, and classes that don't become blandly feat-dependent after level twenty.

The fact is, the system could be made to work well or terribly either way. I could care less if they use 20 or 30 levels, just so long as they use them well.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 03:44 PM
I think that the +10 levels thing--at least, to my understanding from what I've read--is an inclusion of epic material in the base core rules.

Matthew
2007-08-17, 03:53 PM
Apparently, they're powering some stuff down Fax, the idea being to extend the 'sweet spot' or so the article goes that I read... In short, it's probably not as simple as just adding Epic onto Core.

Rob Knotts
2007-08-17, 03:54 PM
I think that the +10 levels thing--at least, to my understanding from what I've read--is an inclusion of epic material in the base core rules.Everything I've read so far supports this. It's not 3x's 20-level progression spread out over 30 levels, it's the addition of new material to cover progression beyond level 20. A level 20 3.5 character updated to 4e rules will still be a 20th level character.

Fhaolan
2007-08-17, 04:05 PM
*sigh* I remember the time when reaching 'name' level (8-10 depending on the class) was an achievement that signaled retiring the character and starting over again. 5-6th level was the sweet-spot, where the characters were skilled, but it was still possible to challenge them.

In 3.x, it seems like the game doesn't actually kick in until at least 10th level, and 20th is the retirement level (does anyone actually *play* Epic as written?). 12-15th or so being the sweet spot.

It sounds an awful lot like 30th is to be the retirement level for 4.x, which doesn't bode well for where the sweet spot will be.

I'm hoping this isn't just an example of power creep, and marketing peddling to the powergamers.

Matthew
2007-08-17, 04:11 PM
I would guess that's exactly what it is, but I doubt it will change the 'Level 1 fight the Orc' paradigm either.

ImperiousLeader
2007-08-17, 04:12 PM
I think it's an attempt to make Epic a part of the Core gameplay. We'll see how that works. I've never touched Epic.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-17, 04:32 PM
It's a good idea to lengthen the standard class progression. There are just way too many feats and class choices for 20 levels. And, as others have pointed out, we need a way to seamlessly transition into Epic play.

More standard class levels will mean a greater variety of useful builds. I especially like this idea if existing classes maintain their capstone abilities at level 20 or lower. Variety is good.

Spiryt
2007-08-17, 04:39 PM
It's a good idea to lengthen the standard class progression. There are just way too many feats and class choices for 20 levels. And, as others have pointed out, we need a way to seamlessly transition into Epic play.

More standard class levels will mean a greater variety of useful builds. I especially like this idea if existing classes maintain their capstone abilities at level 20 or lower. Variety is good.

I second that. This article isn't saying that straight, but if characters are scaled (20level 3.5 is 30 level 4.0, 10level 3.5 is 15 ec), everything will be more interesting. There will be much more different characters (if more levels means more choices).

de-trick
2007-08-17, 04:52 PM
i see how the racial ability's fit in kind of like some templates that with a certain HD you gain a new ability, OK fine
but than if that happens we will never see a dwarfen swashbuckler, or elf barbarian, because they wouldn't be as good as a there favored class would be

but 30 levels come on if they don't reduce xp to each level or make it even, cause after level 10 it takes awhile to level up, an keeps getting harder till a couple of gaming sessions till next level, also what could a level 30 face anything really

Spiryt
2007-08-17, 04:58 PM
but than if that happens we will never see a dwarfen swashbuckler, or elf barbarian, because they wouldn't be as good as a there favored class would be



Well I think it's too early for such pessimism. We don't know much for the moment - it's possible that they will make nice universal racial traits. Maybe elven barbarian will be just different than dwarven, not essentialy worse.

We will see.



But that a Dwarf should become more Dwarf-ish? Where the hell does that come from?

You know all humans have mammalian diving reflex, but only some of them can dive onto 200 metres. An example.
I think that developing your racial advantages is quite good idea. It will probably replace or supplement racial/regional feats.

Starsinger
2007-08-17, 05:00 PM
but 30 levels come on if they don't reduce xp to each level or make it even, cause after level 10 it takes awhile to level up, an keeps getting harder till a couple of gaming sessions till next level, also what could a level 30 face anything really

How do you know? This is a new edition. 1-30 might take as long as 1-20. And how do you know what a level 30 could face? This isn't 3E or 3.5. This is 4E a level 30 might be no stronger than a level 20 is now, in comparison. Or level 30 might be exactly as strong as level 20 is now, with the extra 10 levels so people gain power slower.

Golthur
2007-08-17, 05:03 PM
Well I think it's too early for such pessimism. We don't know much for the moment - it's possible that they will make nice universal racial traits. Maybe elven barbarian will be just different than dwarven, not essentialy worse.

We will see.

I'm guessing that that's why they're limiting the racial abilities to 10 levels, max. It would be difficult to come up with universal racial progressions out to 30 levels for each race and keep them semi-generic.

Even so, though, some of the abilities they've let slip are better for some classes than others - e.g. "elven evasion" is great for nearly every class, except for any class that already has evasion, like rogue or monk.

Starsinger
2007-08-17, 05:06 PM
"elven evasion" is great for nearly every class, except for any class that already has evasion, like rogue or monk.

Elven Evasion might just be the name of the feature. If they go with a static save defense like in Saga edition, that might translate to a +1 Reflex Defense.

Golthur
2007-08-17, 05:09 PM
Elven Evasion might just be the name of the feature. If they go with a static save defense like in Saga edition, that might translate to a +1 Reflex Defense.

Ouch. That will make switching versions difficult - if they keep the same terminology, but change the meanings of everything.

DraPrime
2007-08-17, 05:16 PM
My main question that comes with this is how it's going to affect the CR of some monsters. When something had a CR of 25 it was considered very powerful. Now that you can actually be at level 25 using core rules a CR of 25 will still be powerful, but not considered to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaay up there on the power scale.

Generic PC
2007-08-17, 05:18 PM
Indeed it will. However, This system may also make half breeds more playable, making them get a choice between say the Elven Progression and the Human Progression.

Foolosophy
2007-08-17, 05:20 PM
How do you know? This is a new edition. 1-30 might take as long as 1-20. And how do you know what a level 30 could face? This isn't 3E or 3.5. This is 4E a level 30 might be no stronger than a level 20 is now, in comparison. Or level 30 might be exactly as strong as level 20 is now, with the extra 10 levels so people gain power slower.


this i would love.
more level ups = more development
but at the same time
more level ups != a fast increase in power

right now d&d changes frequently in "power level" every few levels. If you with to avoid this (so that you stay longer in your preferred range of power) you can do this by reducing xp gained...which makes the game feel less rewarding for many players. Depending on character concept this may result in stagnation.
A 30 level d&d with 30 being about equal to 20 in 3.5 could solve this problem. You level up at a steady pace, gain new abilities, but instead of having a harsh jump in power level ever so often* you get a softer, more natural power curve.

*i.e. when the casters get 5th level spells

Matthew
2007-08-17, 05:36 PM
My main question that comes with this is how it's going to affect the CR of some monsters. When something had a CR of 25 it was considered very powerful. Now that you can actually be at level 25 using core rules a CR of 25 will still be powerful, but not considered to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaay up there on the power scale.

The new Monster Manual will apparently contain Monsters with CR 1-30. Given the nature of CR this will all be relative to actual Party Strength, which is not a constant, even at the same level; I doubt that will change.


this i would love.
more level ups = more development
but at the same time
more level ups != a fast increase in power

right now d&d changes frequently in "power level" every few levels. If you with to avoid this (so that you stay longer in your preferred range of power) you can do this by reducing xp gained...which makes the game feel less rewarding for many players. Depending on character concept this may result in stagnation.
A 30 level d&d with 30 being about equal to 20 in 3.5 could solve this problem. You level up at a steady pace, gain new abilities, but instead of having a harsh jump in power level ever so often* you get a softer, more natural power curve.

*i.e. when the casters get 5th level spells

More mechanical development, maybe, but that doesn't equal absolutely better. Levels are always going to create a power disparity, no matter how small you pretend the increments are, the difference between Level 1 and Level 30 will be about thirty time the power of Level 1.

Logic
2007-08-17, 05:37 PM
Unless levels 21-30 are closer to epic levels, just with a better system backing them, the system mechanic cannot be very d20. In order to make the same mechanics similar to the ones we currently enjoy, and have 30 be the new 20, we will need to get ourselves some new d30s.

kingpain
2007-08-17, 05:37 PM
30 levels?Why not, in 5-6 years the NEXT 5.0 version will come out. Anyone see the resemblance between DnD and AOL disks?

Yup, we have to pay for this crap.

DraPrime
2007-08-17, 05:40 PM
Class makers are also going to be strained to make more and more class features thanks to the bigger amount of levels. I'm still waiting to hear how the PrC levels are going to be organized.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-17, 05:41 PM
Unless levels 21-30 are closer to epic levels, just with a better system backing them, the system mechanic cannot be very d20. In order to make the same mechanics similar to the ones we currently enjoy, and have 30 be the new 20, we will need to get ourselves some new d30s.

I don't see the relationship between dice size and level size.


30 levels?Why not, in 5-6 years the NEXT 5.0 version will come out. Anyone see the resemblance between DnD and AOL disks?

Yup, we have to pay for this crap.

You realize that this exact same thing happened with the 2e to 3e switch, eighteen or so years ago? Or that the exact same thing happened with the 1e to 2e switch before that?

These things happen. Nothing's forcing you to upgrade beyond desire to keep with the times or interest in a new and uncharted system.

Matthew
2007-08-17, 05:42 PM
Class Features are probably going to go the way of all things. Hopefully, they will instead use something similar to the Saga System. Judging by the current preview where a Player complains about the chosen ability of another, I expect this to be the case.

Fhaolan
2007-08-17, 05:57 PM
Class makers are also going to be strained to make more and more class features thanks to the bigger amount of levels. I'm still waiting to hear how the PrC levels are going to be organized.

It's entirely possible that they're going to eliminate PrCs, and use Prestige Feat Trees or something similar.

Machete
2007-08-17, 06:00 PM
Well, for me, it depends on what it really means.

If it means 20 levels of power spread out over 30 levels, I approve because it makes a level 2 vs. level 3 fight more even. I like that.


If it means that there will be more powerful epic stuff, I just don't like that. Epic is hard to balance and I've never heard of it being fun.

This is dnd not DBZ.

Logic
2007-08-17, 06:02 PM
I don't see the relationship between dice size and level size.

Assume all of the following green text is true, for just a moment.
A level 30 character that uses a d20 for skill checks, and he has a single skill he has maxed out, (33 ranks) and a decent ability modifier for it (2) for a total modifier of 35. Now, under d20 rules, the hardest "core" example of a DC was 43 (a ranger tracking a group of orcs across...blah blah blah...and it snowed yesterday.)

This character breaks the old systems DCs, unless a new table of example difficulties is to be introduced.

I add that I think the attack roll is going to become nearly meaningless as well.
A properly equipped 3.5 ED 20th lvl fighter (+5 Weapon, +5 Str) has an attack bonus of 30, more with conditional modifiers. In order to have another 10 levels, they need to add something in that gives more AC than the current system allows.

Matthew
2007-08-17, 06:08 PM
A properly equipped 3.5 Level 20 Fighter should have a Strength 31, I would say, and an Attack Bonus of 35+. It's already pretty meaningless.

Cybren
2007-08-17, 06:26 PM
Assume all of the following green text is true, for just a moment.
A level 30 character that uses a d20 for skill checks, and he has a single skill he has maxed out, (33 ranks) and a decent ability modifier for it (2) for a total modifier of 35. Now, under d20 rules, the hardest "core" example of a DC was 43 (a ranger tracking a group of orcs across...blah blah blah...and it snowed yesterday.)

This character breaks the old systems DCs, unless a new table of example difficulties is to be introduced.

I add that I think the attack roll is going to become nearly meaningless as well.
A properly equipped 3.5 ED 20th lvl fighter (+5 Weapon, +5 Str) has an attack bonus of 30, more with conditional modifiers. In order to have another 10 levels, they need to add something in that gives more AC than the current system allows.
A "roll over target" system tends to break whenever you raise your modifier higher than the die size. (Roll Unders suffer from the same thing if you raise your target number over the die size) It's a problem with allowing progression to continue linearly.

brian c
2007-08-18, 10:38 AM
Ryan Dancey (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6899494&postcount=12)(02-07-2007):My guess is that the two new "quartiles" (sextiles?) are intended to integrate epic-level play more smoothly with the core system rather than treating epic levels as a seperate set of optional rules. In other words, progressing into epic levels will probably inflict less of system shock for DMs, players, thier characters, and the setting thier characters exist in.

If less system shock = getting rid of Epic BAB and Epic Saves, I'm for it. Those never made sense to me anyway, just keep the same progressions. Of course, from what everyone is saying about the Star Wars RPG that they got ideas from, the concepts of BAB and Saves might be a lot different anyway

Ramza00
2007-08-18, 11:09 AM
I seriously hope they scale 20 lvls in 30. This will make balancing spellcasters vs non spellcasters easier by giving nonspellcasters more options if they slow the progression of spells.


i see how the racial ability's fit in kind of like some templates that with a certain HD you gain a new ability, OK fine
but than if that happens we will never see a dwarfen swashbuckler, or elf barbarian, because they wouldn't be as good as a there favored class would be

Not necessary, in the original core 4.0 probably, but I bet in splatbook land there is going to be racial substitution levels/options similar to 3.5 that may close the gaps between race-class combos.

DreadSpoon
2007-08-18, 11:24 AM
You realize that this exact same thing happened with the 2e to 3e switch, eighteen or so years ago?

Eight years ago. 3.0 came out eight years ago, and 3.5 came out four years ago.

Overlard
2007-08-18, 11:25 AM
30 levels?Why not, in 5-6 years the NEXT 5.0 version will come out. Anyone see the resemblance between DnD and AOL disks?

Yup, we have to pay for this crap.
Damn them for forcing that money out of your wallet, and making you buy their books. If only you had some choice in the matter, and could continue playing with the plethora of options that currently exist in 3.5 and all previous editions of the game.

If only you could carry on playing those. But unfortunately, as we all know, as soon as the fourth edition comes out, all the old books burst into flames and become unusable, forcing you to use the new ones if you want to play D&D.

Damn WOTC and their evil moneymaking ways.

Orak
2007-08-18, 01:37 PM
I think that 30 levels would be great. It would be something that you can aspire towards. Even with 20 levels I have only been in one group (as DM) that made it to epic levels. But it was literally an epic adventure that is still talked about regularly 3 years after the conclusion. It has also spawned its own game world (an altered version on Forgotten Realms) because epic characters change the face of the world.

I look forward to more options for characters, revised gameplay and the thrill of an adventure that reaches level 30. Even if characters reach near godlike status there will always be DM's out there who will find challenges and adventures worthy of their stature.

As a side note, I have willingly purchased every new edition to D&D because each edition is an improvement to the previous one in my opinion.

Ivius
2007-08-18, 01:49 PM
If only you could carry on playing those. But unfortunately, as we all know, as soon as the fourth edition comes out, all the old books burst into flames and become unusable, forcing you to use the new ones if you want to play D&D.

Partially sigged!

TheOOB
2007-08-18, 01:53 PM
I personally hope they do spread things out so that level 30 is the new level 20. One of the hard parts of campaign design is that characters grow in power very quickly, it's natural that that players want to level up every couple of sessions, but it's possible that players can level up too quickly making it difficult to design encounters for them.

In addition, 30 levels gives the players more chance to customize their characters, there are more multiclass possibilities, and dips into other classes to expand your abilities don't take as significant of a portion of your resources. Perhaps now a wizard will be able to take a few levels of fighter or rogue without breaking their characters, allowing them to be further different from other wizards then just by spell selection.

Pokemaster
2007-08-18, 02:29 PM
Unless they make sure that every class gets something at every level, stretching out 20 levels into 30 will just translate into more dead levels for most classes, but if they handed out feats and every even level and talents at every odd level... that would be a lot of talents and feats. It might work well in Star Wars, but Star Wars characters don't have magic items (which I believe is the reason why Saga gave out more bonus feats).

I'd rather that they keep the basic 20 levels, get rid of the Epic rules and work on making magic magical, but not world-shattering, but then again, I prefer low-level campaigns.

Sequinox
2007-08-18, 07:13 PM
I don't know... If I can move in my 11th level Half Elf Ranger, Femay, My
16th level sorcerer, Sequinox, or my many other characters, I don't care... In fact, I think it sounds great! More levels means more play!

Also, I haven't read much of this thread, so ignore me if I'm off topic.

_________________

Possible founder of the Oracle fanclub. if there already is one, I guess not.

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

I started mine in a dungeon.

healbot42
2007-08-18, 07:56 PM
From the 4th edition forums:

What's with the 30 levels thing? Just they just make epic core, or did they extend the normal class advancement?

Epic is core! Epic levels in PH and epic critters in the MM.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=908272

I don't know how I feel about it.:smallsigh: I hope that they streamline the epic levels, 'cause if not it'll be really complicated. I've done epic twice. It didn't work out well either time. The way I see it if the players of a chance of overcoming an encounter in an epic game then the players are probably gonna have an easy time with it.

Oh, well. It's gonna be a new edition maybe 3.x epic and 4th epic will be totally different.

ZebulonCrispi
2007-08-18, 08:35 PM
I'm not sure I understand the reactions 4th ed is getting.

"DAMN 4th ed for making me pay for something that might be almost exactly the same as 3rd ed!"

"DAMN 4th ed for not being almost exactly the same as 3rd ed!"

Which is it?

Jack Mann
2007-08-18, 09:28 PM
Damn them for forcing that money out of your wallet, and making you buy their books. If only you had some choice in the matter, and could continue playing with the plethora of options that currently exist in 3.5 and all previous editions of the game.

If only you could carry on playing those. But unfortunately, as we all know, as soon as the fourth edition comes out, all the old books burst into flames and become unusable, forcing you to use the new ones if you want to play D&D.

Damn WOTC and their evil moneymaking ways.

You deserve a cookie.

Here, (http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j317/mccloud24/CHOCOLATE_CHIP_COOKIE.jpg) have a cookie.

Malik
2007-08-18, 09:42 PM
I dont see what all the fuss is about, the 4th ed. hasnt even come out yet. Why not wait til its finished then evaluate it, thats what i am going to do.

Pokemaster
2007-08-18, 09:59 PM
I'm not sure I understand the reactions 4th ed is getting.

"DAMN 4th ed for making me pay for something that might be almost exactly the same as 3rd ed!"

"DAMN 4th ed for not being almost exactly the same as 3rd ed!"

Which is it?

Both, with a bit of "DAMN, all of my 3rd ed books are useless now!"

Jack Mann
2007-08-19, 12:38 AM
Yeah, because you just can't use those books when you're done. Just like what Overlard said. Every 3rd edition book was implanted with a hidden pyrotechnic charge that will destroy them utterly. There's no way you can play if Wizards doesn't keep publishing new ones.

JadedDM
2007-08-19, 02:45 AM
People keep saying that, but obviously they've never tried it themselves.

Can it be done? Sure. I still play 2E exclusively. But...it's no cake-walk. Finding players is exceedingly difficult. In fact, if I did not host my games online, it would be downright impossible. I mostly have to recruit people who have no prior experience in D&D (of any edition). Because 99% of the fanbase switched to 3E when it came out, and they will switch to 4E when it comes out.

The Mormegil
2007-08-19, 09:54 AM
I HATE Epic levels. With ALL my heart. They feel a LOT like the most friggin' gamebreaking thing EVER.

I even decided to create a system of level progression over 20 completely different from that one (I will probably open a thread upon this in my next future).


BUT! I don't think I will hate 30 level progression for exactly the SAME REASON: it will allow to take the play on even longer before becoming utterly impossible to play.
Right? Right WotC? You won't create the last 10 levels to allow epic progression even in the Core, right? Right?

Enjoy your game!
>The Mormegil

Balkash
2007-08-19, 09:58 AM
I'm scared of 4e.:smalleek: where's my mummy.

TheOOB
2007-08-19, 11:09 AM
I HATE Epic levels. With ALL my heart. They feel a LOT like the most friggin' gamebreaking thing EVER.

I even decided to create a system of level progression over 20 completely different from that one (I will probably open a thread upon this in my next future).


BUT! I don't think I will hate 30 level progression for exactly the SAME REASON: it will allow to take the play on even longer before becoming utterly impossible to play.
Right? Right WotC? You won't create the last 10 levels to allow epic progression even in the Core, right? Right?

Enjoy your game!
>The Mormegil

Well, we don't know at all how they are going to pull off epic levels, and they specifically mentioned that one of their goals is to make 4e fun and easy to design for at any level, so maybe we should wait and see before we get all mad at epic core advancement. Besides, even if you play 4e, no one is making you play in epic levels.

Arlanthe
2007-08-19, 12:37 PM
This is annoying. I'm so tired of updates so Wiz can sell more books.

Jack Mann
2007-08-19, 12:52 PM
Yeah, I know. I mean, what the hell is a business doing trying to make money?

Bassetking
2007-08-19, 12:53 PM
Yeah, I know. I mean, what the hell is a business doing trying to make money?

I know, Seriously! It's like WotC has never heard of Games Workshop, or something...:smallbiggrin:

Morty
2007-08-19, 12:55 PM
And everyone knows they should give new books away for free for The Greater Good and Brighter Future of Gaming People of Cities and Villages.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-08-19, 01:11 PM
Man, I decide to return to D&D and all of a sudden there's a 4th Edition on the horizon. Neat.

Thoughts on the thirty levels- I'm actually happy having more levels. It'll make conversions harder, but one could assume that having more levels to reach that core pinnacle would mean you level up more often, getting a chance to grow in power more naturally instead of all at once. I actually think it might've been better at 40. It would make conversion easier and 40 just seems like the highest you can go to before individual levels become meaningless and you need to get them in bulk.

If it's just a core fix up of epics for ten levels, that's pretty nice too. Since they'd be core, I'd like to think that they'd play test them better and actually make an epic game feasible.

Skyserpent
2007-08-19, 01:17 PM
If they amp up the experience curve I think this might be pretty fun! I mean, when you think about the basics of D&D I spend an awful lot of time at some annoying dead levels when you're a fighter or a rogue or something. I mean I would kinda like to level up more often just for the feeling of "levelling up" It doesn't even have to BE more powerful, if 15 is the new 10, whatever, I get the good feeling of having a higher number.

horseboy
2007-08-19, 01:22 PM
I know, Seriously! It's like WotC has never heard of Games Workshop, or something...:smallbiggrin:

I loled.

Although, I think it's why I'm not spastic like so many others. You go through something enough times, it's not scary.

TheOOB
2007-08-19, 02:03 PM
This is annoying. I'm so tired of updates so Wiz can sell more books.

Curse them for trying to constantly improve something that and making more and more fun to play. How dare they use their 7+ years of 3.x experience, listening to our constant complaints about game balance and rules complexity and try to give us all the things we are asking for all at once. Why must they release a new edition, like they have been doing for years with great success each time.</sarcasm>

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-08-19, 02:06 PM
Hey, if updates make you mad, stick to 2nd Edition. It's a dead system as far as splat books are concerned.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-19, 02:16 PM
I forgot where I saw it, but WoTC has said that Epic will be core, so I assume that this is what the 30 levels is. If that is the case, it doesn't seem to matter much. Also, I will probably still never get past level 15. Having 30 levels for theoritical builds and such doesn't seem like a big deal to me since 20 always seemed like it would never really happen. What I'm most worried about is there being several CR20+ monsters that will fill the MM so that I have to homebrew any interesting low level challenges.

Malic
2007-08-19, 03:49 PM
I think they arn't changing the levels just righting out 10 more since alot of campaign's go to epic-level now a day's. :smallamused:

Matthew
2007-08-19, 06:41 PM
I know, Seriously! It's like WotC has never heard of Games Workshop, or something...:smallbiggrin:

Heh, there's a great interview with Gygax in the old Od&dities Magazine, where he praises the good business sense of Games Workshop and contrasts them with the inefficient methods of TSR.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-20, 10:15 AM
Obviously, whenever they release 5th edition, you'll be able to play until 40th level. It's just like World of Warcraft expansions.

RAGE KING!
2007-08-20, 12:10 PM
i dont like it. I started gaming with 3.5 and i only recently feel that i can now call myself veteran as opposed to beginner. It feels good not being so crappy. Im now brimming with all kinds of fun ideas and concepts, and now 4th ed. is going to change all that.

I like racial feats that you can use to pump your racial features, and paragon classes. I think the idea of tying some racial abilities into class levels is okay, but only a few...like: Human: Bonus 5 skill points at level 5, bonus feat at level 15, bonus 10 skill points at level 20.

Or a different system where dwarven druids get different racial abilities than dwarven fighters.

I dont like 30 levels, because it makes the game too big. this is already a huge game, and now its like multiplying that hugeness by 1.5 and adding more.

Are we going to see 20 level prestige classes now?

Tormsskull
2007-08-20, 12:40 PM
Obviously, whenever they release 5th edition, you'll be able to play until 40th level. It's just like World of Warcraft expansions.

Now that would be good business sense.

Coming soon!
Beyond the Material Plane
A new D&D expansion that provides your characters the ability to advance up to level 40!
New weapons, armors, items, and spells!
New class and race features!
Buy it today!

Ever Phasm
2007-08-20, 02:03 PM
WotC is a buisness. priority #1= earn money

money earning tricks:


get them hooked on your product
figure out what people want and then give it to them


wizard's did just this. THey would not be establishing 30 levels unless they were certain a large percentage of their target audience would want it.

I am confident in wizards ability to establish better and more fun rules for 4e.

Jack Mann
2007-08-20, 02:25 PM
That's a good point, Phasm, and one I think a lot of people are missing. If Wizards puts out something that its fanbase doesn't like, it won't make a lot of money. The fact that they're trying to make money points to more effort to please us, not less.

....
2007-08-20, 02:47 PM
You realize that this exact same thing happened with the 2e to 3e switch, eighteen or so years ago? Or that the exact same thing happened with the 1e to 2e switch before that?


Uh, dude, 3rd edition came out in what, 2000? It's been around for eight years, tops.

I don't know where the heck you're getting 18 years from.

Number 6
2007-08-20, 02:49 PM
[QUOTE=GNUsNotUnix;3052291]If they spread the current twenty levels over thirty, then you have to adjust current characters to 3/2 current level. Boo-hoo; that's not as rough as it sounds. [QUOTE]

I really doubt they'll do that. They'll probably make it more like WOW (World of Warcraft) where you can gain ungodly levels of power to please the power gamers.

GNUsNotUnix
2007-08-20, 02:59 PM
I really doubt they'll do that. They'll probably make it more like WOW (World of Warcraft) where you can gain ungodly levels of power to please the power gamers.

Either way, it's too early to complain.

wumpus
2007-08-20, 06:34 PM
Now that would be good business sense.

Coming soon!
Beyond the Material Plane
A new D&D expansion that provides your characters the ability to advance up to level 40!
New weapons, armors, items, and spells!
New class and race features!
Buy it today!

Don't say that too loud. Some of us are old farts and remember something else called "Dungeons & Dragons" (the one published at the same time as AD&D 1E). IRC, it went something like this
First ed: Basic1-3 (Boxed set included funky cardboard "dice" and B1 Caves of the Unknown)
Second ed: Basic 1-3 (boxed set had real dice and B2 - Caves of Chaos)
Expert 4-14? (boxed set with X1, I had the book not the set)
Third ed: basic 1-3, Expert 4-14, Campaign14-?
Fourth ed: basic 1-3, Expert 4-14 Campain 14-~25, Master ~25-36

Don't let the go there again.

Reinboom
2007-08-20, 06:48 PM
The 4dventure poster could've been misleading!
Or... progression isn't completely level based, or just slower (so no 1 increase with each level for each skill).
Also, I don't recall anything saying it was actually d20 anyways.