The aberration: fighter sub-class (completed final draft)

[Requilac]

Here is the link to my homebrew fighter archetype: The Aberration (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rk8xo0-tf)! It was originally all posted on this thread in a now deleted post, but now it has been reformatted to NaturalCrit homebrewery.

About this sub-class If you had not found out by the description, then my intention here is to create a lovecraftian fighter archetype. While Great Old One warlocks do exist, so far we do not have a really solid martial that has the abilities of an eldritch abomination. Before I created this class I made several goals that I wished to accomplish. Here is the list of the goals that follows
•Aberrations should have some sort of strange powers which revolve around the mind, such as features that do weird mental effects (like telepathy), induce insanity, or psychologically damage opponents. This goal is reflected in the Awakened mind, Psychotic howl, and to a lesser extent impregnable mind and cursed arsenal features.
•They should have several strange body modifications that make them look twisted and horrifying. This goal is reflected in the unarmored defense and eldritch skirmisher features.
•Aberrations should not be as vulnerable to offensive spells that require the target to make a saving throw, especially if that saving throw effects their willpower. After all, it is just embarrassing if the disciple of cthulhu (or whatever) is frozen in fear of a scare-crow or gawking over a hot dryad. This goal is reflected in the impregnable mind feature.
•their weapons should look strange and more magical than mundane equipment. This goal is reflected in the cursed arsenal feature.

[JNAProductions]

Unarmored Defense FEELS wrong... But I can't actually claim it's unbalanced. It basically gives you Heavy Armor for free.

I guess you could stack it with Monk or Barb to get a good AC while dumping Dex? But that's a kinda niche build, and honestly, probably still not broken.

Edit: Full water breathing and a swim, climb, and crawl speed at level 7? Feels like too much. Not by a TON, but should be toned down.

Cursed Arsenal is nice, but nothing OP.

Impregnable Mind is quite strong, but again, not broken.

Psychotic Howl-why the set DC?

Overall, feels reasonable, for a subclass.

[Requilac]

Unarmored Defense FEELS wrong... But I can't actually claim it's unbalanced. It basically gives you Heavy Armor for free.

I guess you could stack it with Monk or Barb to get a good AC while dumping Dex? But that's a kinda niche build, and honestly, probably still not broken.

You know, funny you mentioned that, because the orignal feature was actually similar to the barbarians unarmored defense (AC=10+ dex+ con), then I changed it to the draconic sorcerer’s draconic resilience (AC=13+ dex), then I changed it again and this is where it is now. The issue with those other ways was that I wanted both Strength and dexterity fighters to go unarmored, and strength fighters would suffer with majorly reduced AC if they went with one of those so they would probably just wear heavy armor anyway. If I calculate AC this way, than both Dexterity and Strength fighters would go unarmored and take on the cool visual effect of being half crab or something similar to a deep one.

[JNAProductions]

You know, funny you mentioned that, because the orignal feature was actually similar to the barbarians unarmored defense (AC=10+ dex+ con), then I changed it to the draconic sorcerer’s draconic resilience (AC=13+ dex), then I changed it again and this is where it is now. The issue with those other ways was that I wanted both Strength and dexterity fighters to go unarmored, and strength fighters would suffer with majorly reduced AC if they went with one of those so they would probably just wear heavy armor anyway. If I calculate AC this way, than both Dexterity and Strength fighters would go unarmored and take on the cool visual effect of being half crab or something similar to a deep one.

You should reread my post-I edited in more commentary.

Final thoughts, though:

Most things are fine. Eldritch Skirmisher is the only thing I feel NEEDS adjusting.

[Requilac]

Edit: Full water breathing and a swim, climb, and crawl speed at level 7? Feels like too much. Not by a TON, but should be toned down.
They do not actually get full water breathing keep in mind. They can fight underwater without any drawbacks but that does not mean they can actually breathe underwater. For example, They could dive underwater for a few seconds to flawlessly wrestle a shake or two, but they have to come back up really soon before they lose their breath. Also, they are not actually gaining a swimming, climbing and crawling speed, it just means that they do not have to expend 10 ft. Of their walking movement to swim 5ft, they can just use 5ft. Of their movement to ,well, swim 5ft.



Impregnable Mind is quite strong, but again, not broken.

It is probably not as strong as you might think. I based it off of the gnome’s gnome cunning feature, and they can get that at level 1.



Psychotic Howl-why the set DC?

How else would I calculate the DC? Fighters do not have a spellcasting modifier. I cannot expect all fighters to have strong mental stats, so if I did the regular DC calculation of 8+ proficiency bonus +mental ability modifier (probably intelligence) than that DC would be way too low for a level 18 feature. I think it is just easier to set the DC.

[JNAProductions]

Then you need to write that feature better.

And I know-that's exactly WHY I think it's okay.

8+Proficiency Modifier+Stat (probably Charisma).

Barbarians get a similar feature (well, Frenzy ones do) and that scales off Charisma. With your non-reliance on stats for AC and extra ASIs from being a Fighter, you can EASILY pump up a mental stat.

[Requilac]

Then you need to write that feature better.
I thought I was being rather clear with my writing of the eldritch skirmisher feature. It is rather straight to the point and plain English to be completely honest. What I said is precisely what I meant, climbing, swimming and crawling no longer takes extra movement. There is a whole section on climbig, swimming and crawling in the PHB. Not to mention that theif rogues get a similar feature (second-story work) which directly states “climbig no longer costs you extra movement”. I do not quite know where you drew the underwater breathing from either. Was it the “you ignore any of the drawbacks caused by any non-magical terrains (including underwater environments) clause? I do not mean to be aggressive at all, but may I ask which you suggest me to change it to? Sorry if I seemed too offensive, I am just a little confused by your statements.



And I know-that's exactly WHY I think it's okay.
You were referring to impregnable mind, right?



8+Proficiency Modifier+Stat (probably Charisma).

Barbarians get a similar feature (well, Frenzy ones do) and that scales off Charisma. With your non-reliance on stats for AC and extra ASIs from being a Fighter, you can EASILY pump up a mental stat.

I suppose that is true. But I think that most fighters would normally Max their strength or dexterity, and constitution first before they improved their mental stats (and strength fighters would probably use their remaining ASI’a to pump dex). And that is assuming that they do not take any feats. I may make the DC= 14 + int, but for now I think the set DC is fine.

[JNAProductions]

You also ignore any of the drawbacks caused by any non-magical terrains (including underwater environments).

That part is what makes me think that you can breathe underwater. Not breathing is a pretty major drawback that, as written, is negated.

And yes, the second sentence was Impregnable Mind.

And I contest that-you're giving them an arbitrary bonus for no well-defined mechanical or fluff reason. 8+Prof+Stat mod. Yes, it requires them to build a little differently than normal, sometimes, but it's hardly going to cripple them.

[GalacticAxekick]

First and foremost, I think this should be a Sorcerer subclass.

The Fighter class represents someone who uses martial arts training and equipment to win in face-to-face combat. Every Fighter subclass is acquired when the character trains in a unique style of combat. It's a natural progression of what they were doing from level 1, which is important, because a character can hit 3rd level and choose their Fighter subclass just about anywhere.

Your Aberration seems to represent someone who has come into contact with the eldritch (willingly or unwillingly, at birth or in life) and been changed by it.

The Sorcerer class represents someone with innate supernatural abilities granted by their bloodline or some later change in what they are. Not only does this better represent what your Aberration is (someone tainted by eldritch powers), but it makes more sense to take a level in Aberration Sorcerer whenever the tainting occurs rather than to take a level in Aberration Fighter out of the blue.

Of course, you want the Aberration to be martial class. The closest things I'd recommend are (a) making a Sorcerer archetype built for melee thanks to natural armour, natural weapons, perhaps bonus hit points/regeneration, and similar features or (b) making a Barbarian archetype, since Barbarians use only their innate abilities, and so a Barbarian who unknowingly carried eldritch potential could make at least a little sense gaining eldritch powers at third level.

All this said, lets see what you have.

High AC demands investment in one ability or another so that AC can scale with levels and so that AC will not scale if the player chooses to value an unrelated ability. If you don't want AC tied to Strength or Dex, tie it to Constitution or Charisma (which could represent the biological nature of the armour or the role willpower plays in producing it). I'd say AC = 13 + Con.

A Fighter's 3rd level feature is always supposed to change the way that they approach combat. An alternative source of AC doesn't do that because it's an alternative serving the same roll as an old tool, and telepathy doesn't do that because, convenient as it is, has no mechanic bearing in combat in particular.

Why not let the Aberration dominate areas of combat the normal Fighter struggles to: Area of Effect, saving throws, and doling out status effects? The Aberration could grapple, shove, blind, deafen, or restrain enemies with tendrils if they fail a Strength save?

Or why not let the Aberration access natural weapons? Perhaps as a bonus action they can grow up to two natural weapons that mechanically mimic a simple weapon of your choice. A pair of clawed hands would mimic sickles while jettisoning quills would mimic darts, and set of antlers might mimic a greatclub. Martial weapons are generally superior, so those Fighter weapons would still come in handy, but the natural weapons would offer versatility in a pinch.

I like this feature, since it meets the Fighter's utility feature quota effectively and thematically. It's a bit strong, but hardly game-breaking

Seems balanced at a glance, and more or less mechanically appropriate!

Thematically appropriate! Might be a bit strong, but once again, I doubt it's game-breaking.

I agree with JNA. The DC should be 8 + Proficiency + Stat (ideally Charisma). Spellcasters have decide between spellcasting ability, Dex and Con. Barbarians and Monks need to decide between Dex, Con and either Strength or Wisdom respectively. But Fighters and Rogues are lucky enough to rely on only two stats each (Strength and Con or Dex and Con). One more stat to tradeoff won't break them.

[Avigor]

First: the environmental ability needs to spell out that water breathing is not included (vague wording of current version can easily go either way), I'm unconvinced of the need for the bonus skills, and Impregnable Mind should include something about telepathy (and I'm unconvinced if you need protection against non-manipulation mental saves...).

More to the point, I think this feels to me more like a Barbarian archetype than a Fighter archetype, given that Fighters are more about careful study and technique compared to Barbarians being about throwing caution to the wind and going nuts. Integrating the mutations at least partially into Rage opens up easier integration of natural weapons as well IMO. So, here's my suggestions for a Barbarian archetype of this (keep in mind this is off the top of my head so names especially are going to be weak):

Level 3:
Awakened Mind: As listed - after all, Totems get Speak with Animal ritual so there's some equivalency here.
Mutation: When raging, you can replace your normal Unarmored AC with an AC of 16 (or 13 + CON) as your flesh mutates in some way like scales or a carapace. Additionally, you can cause both hands to mutate, whether this looks like crab/ scorpion claws, barbed tentacles, or something more like traditional monstrous paws is up to the player. The claws (as I'll call them from here on out) should prevent the use of shields and count as magic, and damage should be slashing and calculated using Barbarian level as if it were a Monk of the same level. Might be worth throwing in double Proficiency for grapple checks with the claws to throw in some weird anatomy emphasis.

Level 6:
Eldritch Skirmisher: Part of me doesn't like the name of this for some reason, but otherwise just specify no water breathing (or give it to them during rage only, either way).
Mutation II: When you deploy your claws and armor both during a rage, you now increase your Unarmored AC by +2, as your shield is now built into your claws.
Impregnable Mind: During rage, you can now ignore undesired telepathic contact, and if anyone establishes such contact you can use your reaction to attempt an Intimidate check with advantage against them as they get a peek into the insanity of your aberration.

Level 10:
Cursed Arsenal/ Mutation III: Your mutant AC when both claws and armor are deployed is now 20 (18 if only armor is deployed; otherwise, 15 + CON + 2 if claws are deployed), and now against a grappled opponent your claws can deal cold, acid, necrotic, or poison damage instead of slashing damage. In addition, when you are using your claws, your Brutal Critical damage is psychic and grants you the appropriate temporary HP per original CA.
Impregnable Mind II: During rage, you now have advantage on any save against Charm, Fear, or any other kind of mental manipulation (such as the Command spell).

Level 14:
Impregnable Mind III: During rage, you are now outright immune to fear and charm and other mental manipulations and you can use your reaction to force anyone who attempts such a mental manipulation or a telepathic contact to make a Wisdom save (should be the same as Psychotic Howl) or be effected as if by a fear spell as they are inundated by the insanity of your aberration.
Psychotic Howl: During rage only, DC can be set or changed to go off an ability.

[Requilac]

Here is a list of changes that I just made to some of the features

•unarmored defense AC equals 13+your constitution modifier
•eldritch skirmisher specifies that you cannot breathe underwater
•impregnable mind now offers protection against telepathy
•psychotic howl has a DC that equals 14+ your intelligence modifier. At level 18 your proficiency bonus is going to always be +6, so instead of saying 8+ your proficiency bonus I simply molded them together to say 14. I think the addition of intelligence modifier to the saving throw is thematically appropriate because Aberrations would certainly gain more knowledge from contact with otherworldly creatures, I do not think they would get better at social situations that charisma represents.

About making the aberration a different class’ subclass: While it is certainly thematically appropriate for them to be sorcerers, my main goal was to create a lovecraftian martial class as GalacticAxeKick has already pointed out, and I am weary about giving sorcerer some close combat features. I find it especially interesting that people said it is more thematic for a barbarian, because I was actually thinking it is contradictory to the barbarian’s fluff. A lot of the barbarian’s description include their details about their interactions with nature and surviving in the wild. Aberrations are horrid representations of things that are absolutely not natural, so that invalidates a big part of the barbarians flavor text. One could always ignore that fact about the barbarian’s nature and instead reflavor it, but in doing so, you are making it thematically appropriate to your reflavoring, not the actual class.

But aside from that, I think aberration features blend better with fighter mechanics than they do with barbarian mechanics. Barbarians have a decent amount of focus on expendable resources, taking risks, hitting things with a big or sharp stick really hard, and to a lesser extent, exploring the wild. Fighters though are much more vague and flexible and can be used to represent any class that is good at primarily combat. The flexibility that the fighter has makes it easy to add features to them and make a good sub-class, while barbarians are a much more complex process that you need to be a lot more nitpicky about though. Making it a fighter sub-class gave me the freedom to make the proper features I needed without having to worry about the complicated balance issues of the barbarian.

about natural weapons: I already went into detail as to why I did not like them very much. @GalactixAxeKick though, your comment on allowing natural weapons apply conditions piqued my interest though. Instead of having it be a traditional hand-held “weapon”, a tentacle or claw could sprout from an aberration’s body and you could use a bonus action to have it shove, grapple or knock prone your enemies. That seems a little overpowered at first but I think I can find some way to balance that. Perhaps by doing this I could still technically have natural weapons but while still avoiding my previous issue with it. How do all of you think about this idea?

That Seems extremely overpowered to me the more I think about it. Grappling and shoving should take up an attack If they were to make one, and I am worried about allowing them to do this as a bonus action without lessened damage. But another approach did come to mind. Perhaps the natural weapon could parry or reposte like the battle master maneuvers or even deflect missiles like a monk? Perhaps I am getting a little too outlandish here though...

[Avigor]

I find it especially interesting that people said it is more thematic for a barbarian, because I was actually thinking it is contradictory to the barbarian’s fluff. A lot of the barbarian’s description include their details about their interactions with nature and surviving in the wild. Aberrations are horrid representations of things that are absolutely not natural, so that invalidates a big part of the barbarians flavor text. One could always ignore that fact about the barbarian’s nature and instead reflavor it, but in doing so, you are making it thematically appropriate to your reflavoring, not the actual class.

But aside from that, I think aberration features blend better with fighter mechanics than they do with barbarian mechanics. Barbarians have a decent amount of focus on expendable resources, taking risks, hitting things with a big or sharp stick really hard, and to a lesser extent, exploring the wild. Fighters though are much more vague and flexible and can be used to represent any class that is good at primarily combat. The flexibility that the fighter has makes it easy to add features to them and make a good sub-class, while barbarians are a much more complex process that you need to be a lot more nitpicky about though. Making it a fighter sub-class gave me the freedom to make the proper features I needed without having to worry about the complicated balance issues of the barbarian.

The wilderness flavor *ONLY* applies to the Totem Barbarian archetype; the rest of the base class is a martial who channels his rage, in contrast to a Fighter who develops his abilities via years of training and honing his skills. Other Barbarian archetypes include a generic raging warrior (Berserker) and a reckless warrior who throws himself bodily into his enemies (Battlerager from SCAG).

On the other hand, I will agree that Barbarians are more feature heavy and so balance might arguably be more difficult... But then again, Fighters get Action Surge and the additional extra attacks, which are huge, so yeah.

[GalacticAxekick]

psychotic howl has a DC that equals 14+ your intelligence modifier. At level 18 your proficiency bonus is going to always be +6, so instead of saying 8+ your proficiency bonus I simply molded them together to say 14. I think the addition of intelligence modifier to the saving throw is thematically appropriate because Aberrations would certainly gain more knowledge from contact with otherworldly creatures, I do not think they would get better at social situations that charisma represents.Would a typical Aberration have higher Intelligence? Maybe. A typical Barbarian would have higher Wisdom than Charisma, if you prescribe to the image of animalistic savage. But because their Intimidating Presence feature in particular is an attempt to leverage their personality, not their awareness, Charisma determines the save DC. The same goes for your Psychotic Howl.


While it is certainly thematically appropriate for them to be sorcerers, my main goal was to create a lovecraftian martial class as GalacticAxeKick has already pointed out, and I am weary about giving sorcerer some close combat features. What's the risk? Obviously if the Sorcerer had its usual overwhelming blasting, plus the defenses and melee of a martial class, it would be too strong. But there are ways to work around that. Trade blasting for melee by offering a feature that gives ranged spells a range of touch and centres AoE on yourself (in exchange for higher AC and HP or regeneration), for instance.


I find it especially interesting that people said it is more thematic for a barbarian, because I was actually thinking it is contradictory to the barbarian’s fluff. A lot of the barbarian’s description include their details about their interactions with nature and surviving in the wild. Aberrations are horrid representations of things that are absolutely not natural, so that invalidates a big part of the barbarians flavor text. One could always ignore that fact about the barbarian’s nature and instead reflavor it, but in doing so, you are making it thematically appropriate to your reflavoring, not the actual class.Class, in 5th edition, merely represents a set of tools and techniques. That's why its been separated from alignment and background.

Besides Barbarians who are a legitimate savages, there are learned noble Barbarians who bodybuild for health, and charismatic entertainer Barbarians who fight for show. As the PHB says, "These barbarians, different as they might be, are defined by their rage: unbridled, unquenchable, and unthinking fury. More than a mere emotion, their anger is the ferocity of a cornered predator, the unrelenting assault of a storm, the churning turmoil of the sea."

Only the Quick Build section of the Barbarian description says that they should be outlanders. It represents a cliche, not a rule.


But aside from that, I think aberration features blend better with fighter mechanics than they do with barbarian mechanics. [...] How? Unarmoured Defense is already a Barbarian feature. Awakened Mind level fits snugly into the Barbarian chassis (Totem Barbarians get the similar Spirit Seeker feature at the same level). Eldritch Skirmisher at fits snuggly too (Totem Barbarians get the similar Aspect of the Beast one level earlier). Impregnable Mind is an enhanced form of the Berserker's Mindless Rage, earned 5 levels later. Psychotic Howl is an enhanced form of the Berserker's Intimidating Presence, gained 8 levels alter. Only Cursed Arsenal has no precedent in the Barbarian class.

I'd offer Awakened Mind and some form of natural weapons (which would probably replace Cursed Arsenal) at 3rd level, and Eldritch Skirmisher at 6th level. Psychotic Howl and Impregnable Mind would both be nerfed and acquired at 10th and 14th level (which when is gained when is up to you).


@GalactixAxeKick though, your comment on allowing natural weapons apply conditions piqued my interest though. [...] How do all of you think about this idea?It is a bit overpowered, and not at all what I had in mind. The first idea I offered was the grant the Aberration tools for inflicting conditions. These don't have to be bonus actions applied to attacks. These could just be the attacks:
Living Catapult: When you shove a creature, you can throw them an additional height or distance equal to your running jump (that is, 3 + Strength modifier feet high, or Strength score feet away respectively)
Living Cage: When you grapple a creature, you choose to inflict one additional condition of your choice among these: Blinded, Deafened, Silenced, Restrained. You can change or end the condition at any time on your turn, and the condition ends when the creature escapes your grapple.

The second idea I offered was to grant the Aberration natural weapons, simply to to make them adaptable in combat.

Living Weapon: As a bonus action on your turn, you can sprout one or two natural weapons, which fill your empty hand(s). These weapons share the damage dice, damage types and properties of the simple weapons of your choice, with the exception that they can all use Strength for their attack and damage rolls. If a simple weapon would require ammunition, the natural weapon you creature produces such ammunition automatically.
Starting at 10th level, your natural weapons are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity.

[Requilac]

The wilderness flavor *ONLY* applies to the Totem Barbarian archetype; the rest of the base class is a martial who channels his rage, in contrast to a Fighter who develops his abilities via years of training and honing his skills. Other Barbarian archetypes include a generic raging warrior (Berserker) and a reckless warrior who throws himself bodily into his enemies (Battlerager from SCAG).

On the other hand, I will agree that Barbarians are more feature heavy and so balance might arguably be more difficult... But then again, Fighters get Action Surge and the additional extra attacks, which are huge, so yeah.

I would suggest you re-read the flavor text of the barbarian again, especially the primal instinct section. While I do not personally think that wildness is necessary to the concept of a barbarian, nor do I believe their features effectively display this in a clear manner, it is pretty obvious that wilderness survival is an important facet of their fluff. The PHB even directly states that “to a barbarian, though, civilization is no virtue, but a sign of weakness... Barbarians are uncomfortable when hedges in by walls and crowds. They thrive in the wilds of their homelands: the tundra, jungle, or grasslands where their tribes live and hunt”. The “A life of danger” section furthers this by saying “Life in the wild places of the world is fraught with peril... wandering is often a way of life for their native tribes... some barbarians miss the close-knit family structures of the tribe”.

Regardless of my or your personal opinion on the matter, it is indisputable. WotC ingrained the aspect of wilderness survival into the fluff of the barbarian. You can decided to ignore that if you want to, I like it better that way too, but this makes some parts of the aberration class contradictory to the theme of the barbarian. As I previously stated, it would certainly make a decent barbarian sub-class, but at the end of the day it is contradictory to the barbarian’s survivalistic fluff. We can decide to change the fluff, of course, but then we are saying that an aberration fits in our version of the fluff, not the RAW version of their thematic elements.

@GalacticAxeKick
I actually think that intelligence is probably a better representation of what an aberration is doing when they unleash their psychotic howl. Charisma certainly makes sense though, considering that it does have to do with an aberration “leveraging their personalities” as you put it, but I think intellgence is still more accurate. This is because psychotic howl would rely on how well you can understand and replicate the eldritch forces which have effected them, which is based upon intelligence. Both make sense though. I will go the middle ground and make it so that the player can choose between charisma or intelligence to add to the DC. Those same thoughts were occurring to me too.

About condition inflicting attacks: I have actually considered doing similar effects like that, but here is the thing; That is the precise thing which battlemasters do with their maneuvers. This is after all a fighter sub-class, and by doing that it is going to start resemblinng a battle-master fighter. Martial classes already have a way to do all those things, and this is by becoming a battle-master or taking the martial adept feat. By letting Aberrations inflict special conditions like that, they are not developing their own identity with special features. I have spent since the beginning of last summer evaluating this class and no matter what, the conclusion always ends up being that natural weapons look cool but do not actually add anything to the class. That is part of why I added in the cursed arsenal feature, so the weapons that they use can still look eldritch but I do not have to go through the terrible complexity of creating natural weapons.

[Requilac]

How? Unarmoured Defense is already a Barbarian feature. Awakened Mind level fits snugly into the Barbarian chassis (Totem Barbarians get the similar Spirit Seeker feature at the same level). Eldritch Skirmisher at fits snuggly too (Totem Barbarians get the similar Aspect of the Beast one level earlier). Impregnable Mind is an enhanced form of the Berserker's Mindless Rage, earned 5 levels later. Psychotic Howl is an enhanced form of the Berserker's Intimidating Presence, gained 8 levels alter. Only Cursed Arsenal has no precedent in the Barbarian class.

I'd offer Awakened Mind and some form of natural weapons (which would probably replace Cursed Arsenal) at 3rd level, and Eldritch Skirmisher at 6th level. Psychotic Howl and Impregnable Mind would both be nerfed and acquired at 10th and 14th level (which when is gained when is up to you).

You make a compelling arguement, but there is a very important reason why I made it a fighter sub-class so please let me explain. As befit of its nature, I wanted the aberration to be distinct from other classes. Originally, the aberration was its own class. But during play-testing it fell apart, and my attempts to fix it seemingly made the it worst. Altogether, it was not the proper material for a class on its own, so I decided to make it a sub-class. But regardless of this, the aberration should still hold a strong identity and stand out from the rest of the classes. The broad flexibility of the fighter makes it easy for a fighter sub-class to distinguish itself from the other sub-classes. If the aberration were a barbarian sun-class, than its features would get diluted by the many features of the barbarian and it would lose some of its identity. By being a fighter sub-class, it’s features will come out more and display its own uniqueness. I genuinely believe that by being a fighter sub-class that ghe absrration becomes a more signifigant and just an over-all better option to play than if it were a barbarian sub-class. Perhaps that is a little too abstract of a concept to try to explain properly.

I apologize if I seem stubborn or inflexible, that is not my intention at all and I genuinely value your criticisms on the aberration @GalacticAxeKick. No hard feelings please.

[JNAProductions]

Here's what I have to say to the both of you:

Requilac: Galactic has some good points about the flavor not fitting the Fighter a ton. It's worth considering-if not ditching the current project, perhaps making a few more subclasses. More brew is more good.

Galactic: Ultimately, whether or not you feel it fits the fluff is a very personal thing. Requilac feels it works best as a Fighter subclass, so if that's what they want to do, then let them do it. Definitely critique it and offer ways to improve it, but fluff is mutable.

To both: Thanks for being civil. I'm always glad when people don't get into (metaphorical) blows over a game.

[GalacticAxekick]

About condition inflicting attacks: I have actually considered doing similar effects like that, but here is the thing; That is the precise thing which battlemasters do with their maneuvers.You’ve misunderstood me. I very specifically said that I am not tying conditions to attacks.

I’ve described (a) a system where a condition can be inflicted in the place of an attack (like shoving or grappling) and (b) a system where natural weapons can be produced and withdrawn at will. The former doesn’t involve damaging attacks and the latter doesn’t involve effects. Neither involves a limited pool of dice or any resource. How is this too similar to the Battle Master?


I have spent since the beginning of last summer evaluating this class and no matter what, the conclusion always ends up being that natural weapons look cool but do not actually add anything to the class. That is part of why I added in the cursed arsenal feature, so the weapons that they use can still look eldritch but I do not have to go through the terrible complexity of creating natural weapons.The system I described meant an Aberration can produce a natural weapon mimicking any simple weapon at will. This would let them choose bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage, 5’ or 10’ reach, melee or range, Str/Dex or Finesse, one or two handed at will.

I don’t see why they’d “look cool but add nothing” when the feature is totally mechanical and only as cosmetic as the player fluffs it. And I don’t see how it’s “terribly complex” when it only asks the player to know the stats of the simple weapon they’re mimicking.

[Requilac]

You’ve misunderstood me. I very specifically said that I am not tying conditions to attacks.

I’ve described (a) a system where a condition can be inflicted in the place of an attack (like shoving or grappling) and (b) a system where natural weapons can be produced and withdrawn at will. The former doesn’t involve damaging attacks and the latter doesn’t involve effects. Neither involves a limited pool of dice or any resource. How is this too similar to the Battle Master?

If I understood you correctly, then you were planning on making a list of special actions you can take in place of an attack to assist in combat outside of merely hitting something with your weapon. You would probably get a long list to choose from. Some of these actions would not normally be very effective, but their efficiency would depend upon party composition and would work better in certain scenarios than others. Other people could replicate something close to any of these actions, but only someone of that sub-class could actually perform them.

That sounds pretty similar to battle-master maneuvers if you ask me.

But I am beginning to get the impression that I am not actually understanding you. Perhaps I am not making enough assumptions on what you are saying, or not picking up on some nuance which I should have gotten by now. I am very sorry if I am frustrating you at all, I think your input here is definitely useful, even if we do not always see eye to eye. May I ask what system you are proposing? Hopefully with a more detailed explanation I can better understand what you are proposing.



The system I described meant an Aberration can produce a natural weapon mimicking any simple weapon at will. This would let them choose bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage, 5’ or 10’ reach, melee or range, Str/Dex or Finesse, one or two handed at will.

I don’t see why they’d “look cool but add nothing” when the feature is totally mechanical and only as cosmetic as the player fluffs it. And I don’t see how it’s “terribly complex” when it only asks the player to know the stats of the simple weapon they’re mimicking.

Perhaps I was being a little too unreasonable with you earlier on my criticism of that concept. But my issue still stands, how exactly do you create a two-handed natural weapon? And the visual of somone using a shield In one hand and a natural weapon in the other looks a little odd to me. I suppose it would be fine if the aberration was creating two light weapons and dual wielding, but otherwise it would look awkward and weird (not the good weird which I am going for). I guess part of the problem would be solved if you found some way to create a natural shield and a two-handed natural weapon, but I have no idea what those would look like. Hmm, perhaps instead of offering a choice of weapons, I could pre-set what this weapon would be. Perhaps these natural claws could have the same stats of a dagger? I do not quite know if that satisfies your wishes or not.

Sorry if it seems like this arguement is becoming repetitive and that it seems as if it is lasting much longer than it should. I have to admit though, you are certainly making me think about the aberration more than I did during its creation and you have suggested several changes which actually did come to fruition. I am definitely coming closer to completion of the aberration the more and more you debate. Thank you Galactic.

[GalacticAxekick]

If I understood you correctly, then you were planning on making a list of special actions you can take in place of an attack to assist in combat outside of merely hitting something with your weapon. You would probably get a long list to choose from. Some of these actions would not normally be very effective, but their efficiency would depend upon party composition and would work better in certain scenarios than others. Other people could replicate something close to any of these actions, but only someone of that sub-class could actually perform them.

That sounds pretty similar to battle-master maneuvers if you ask me."Taking the place of attacks and doing a thing that's more or less unique, sometimes appropriate and sometimes not" is an incredibly broad area to rule out. The Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Hide, Search and Use Object actions meet the first requirement, while spellcasting and breath weapons meet both, besides the Manoeuvres you've chosen to my feature to.

What distinguishes the system I proposed from the Battle Master's Manoeuvres is (a) that it is not tied to a resource such as manoeuvre dice, points or slots, (b) is not stronger than, but merely alternative to making an attack (c) includes only two flexible options, rather than a long list of rigid effects. If anything, it's closest to cantrips, with the differences that it replaces a single attack rather than the attack action and that it does not scale with levels. And even then, neither of the two options shares its effect with any cantrip.

Living Catapult: When you shove a creature, you can throw them an additional height or distance equal to your running jump (that is, 3 + Strength modifier feet high, or Strength score feet away respectively)
Living Cage: When you grapple a creature, you choose to inflict one additional condition of your choice among these: Blinded, Deafened, Silenced, Restrained. The condition ends when the creature escapes your grapple.


But I am beginning to get the impression that I am not actually understanding you. Perhaps I am not making enough assumptions on what you are saying, or not picking up on some nuance which I should have gotten by now. I am very sorry if I am frustrating you at all, I think your input here is definitely useful, even if we do not always see eye to eye. May I ask what system you are proposing? Hopefully with a more detailed explanation I can better understand what you are proposing. I described the entire feature already, and I've repeated it here. There are no assumptions to make or nuances to catch. It's spelled out.

I'm a bit frustrated, but I'm not mad at you. Misunderstandings happen.


Perhaps I was being a little too unreasonable with you earlier on my criticism of that concept. But my issue still stands, how exactly do you create a two-handed natural weapon? And the visual of someone using a shield In one hand and a natural weapon in the other looks a little odd to me. I suppose it would be fine if the aberration was creating two light weapons and dual wielding, but otherwise it would look awkward and weird (not the good weird which I am going for). I guess part of the problem would be solved if you found some way to create a natural shield and a two-handed natural weapon, but I have no idea what those would look like. Hmm, perhaps instead of offering a choice of weapons, I could pre-set what this weapon would be. Perhaps these natural claws could have the same stats of a dagger? I do not quite know if that satisfies your wishes or not.You could include a short blurb of flavour text describing how some natural weapons might look and occupy the user's hands.

Hammers, daggers and sickles might lend their stats to claws and bony fists, as light weapons that fill both hands.
Spears and quarterstaves might lend their stats to goring or ramming horns, as versatile weapons that demand three limbs to jolt forward, or four to jolt harder.
Javelins and ranged weapons might lend their stats to projectile quills, as ranged weapons, some with melee use.
Shields might lend their stats to bony frills, keratinous scales, chitinous shells or such which radiate from one arm, as one-handed shields.


Sorry if it seems like this arguement is becoming repetitive and that it seems as if it is lasting much longer than it should. I have to admit though, you are certainly making me think about the aberration more than I did during its creation and you have suggested several changes which actually did come to fruition. I am definitely coming closer to completion of the aberration the more and more you debate. Thank you Galactic.My pleasure! I wouldn't come back to comment if I wasn't enjoying myself. Sorry if I come off as harsh.

[Requilac]

What distinguishes the system I proposed from the Battle Master's Manoeuvres is (a) that it is not tied to a resource such as manoeuvre dice, points or slots, (b) is not stronger than, but merely alternative to making an attack (c) includes only two flexible options, rather than a long list of rigid effects. If anything, it's closest to cantrips, with the differences that it replaces a single attack rather than the attack action and that it does not scale with levels. And even then, neither of the two options shares its effect with any cantrip.

Living Catapult: When you shove a creature, you can throw them an additional height or distance equal to your running jump (that is, 3 + Strength modifier feet high, or Strength score feet away respectively)
Living Cage: When you grapple a creature, you choose to inflict one additional condition of your choice among these: Blinded, Deafened, Silenced, Restrained. The condition ends when the creature escapes your grapple.

While this is interesting, I do not think I like it as much as the other features I have other created. But I feel like I should inform you that I also plan on making a lovecraftian cleric domain (eldritch) and roguish archetype (name yet to be decided, possibly haunter or whisperer?). I believe that perhaps something similar to what you described I could add to the roguish archetype. So far, I do not really have a good on what the rogue archetype should do and this could be a good start. But for now, I do not think this feature should should be added to the aberration.



You could include a short blurb of flavour text describing how some natural weapons might look and occupy the user's hands.

Hammers, daggers and sickles might lend their stats to claws and bony fists, as light weapons that fill both hands.
Spears and quarterstaves might lend their stats to goring or ramming horns, as versatile weapons that demand three limbs to jolt forward, or four to jolt harder.
Javelins and ranged weapons might lend their stats to projectile quills, as ranged weapons, some with melee use.
Shields might lend their stats to bony frills, keratinous scales, chitinous shells or such which radiate from one arm, as one-handed shields.


This did not really solve my main issue at hand. The two-handed natural weapons (including most of the ranged weapons) do not actually take up any hands. The 5e system seems to be heavily reliant on how many hands you can use and are free. How exactly do you use your limbs to jolt forward may I ask, because I think that the image may make more sense in your head than mine. And may I ask what you are imagining with the one-handed shields you suggested? Is the aberration’s arm being crusted over by some tough substance so that they can use the arm to parry attacks? I feel as if these suggestions do not actually solve the matter at hand; the natural armaments need to actually take up both hands and cannot look too awkward as to breake immersion.

[GalacticAxekick]

While this is interesting, I do not think I like it as much as the other features I have other created. But I feel like I should inform you that I also plan on making a lovecraftian cleric domain (eldritch) and roguish archetype (name yet to be decided, possibly haunter or whisperer?). I believe that perhaps something similar to what you described I could add to the roguish archetype. So far, I do not really have a good on what the rogue archetype should do and this could be a good start. But for now, I do not think this feature should should be added to the aberration.I suggested the same features to someone else who was making a Strength-based Rogue Archetype meant to represent a brutal, rather than cunning, scoundrel. That was fine.

Rogues are cheaters, and Rogue archetypes describe how the Rogue cheats best. Grappling and shoving are appropriate for a Rogue archetype that cheats by leveraging their Strength unfairly. But that's not what your Eldritch Rogue is. That would probably be a Rogue who cheats by using otherworldly powers to confuse, elude and overwhelm the enemy. I'd expect use of darkness, illusions, transformative disguises and something like the "Eldritch Skirmisher" feature you've already written. Think "the Thing" from the movie of the same name.


This did not really solve my main issue at hand. The two-handed natural weapons (including most of the ranged weapons) do not actually take up any hands. The 5e system seems to be heavily reliant on how many hands you can use and are free. How exactly do you use your limbs to jolt forward may I ask, because I think that the image may make more sense in your head than mine.I was unclear. The implication is meant to be that, like any horned animal, the Aberration rushes forward on all fours, and that the player can choose to rush on all threes (to keep one arm free, as appropriate for a versatile weapon).


And may I ask what you are imagining with the one-handed shields you suggested? Is the aberration’s arm being crusted over by some tough substance so that they can use the arm to parry attacks? I feel as if these suggestions do not actually solve the matter at hand; the natural armaments need to actually take up both hands and cannot look too awkward as to breake immersion.The aberrations arm would grow a natural shield: a disk like the frill on a triceratops skull; a small, dense plate, like the dome of a pachycephalosaurus skull; a wide, scaled arm like pangolin tail; a more conventional but organic shield grown like a crab or tortoise carapace over one arm.

None of these, in my opinion, look awkward or break immersion. But maybe that's just my tastes.

[Requilac]

I was unclear. The implication is meant to be that, like any horned animal, the Aberration rushes forward on all fours, and that the player can choose to rush on all threes (to keep one arm free, as appropriate for a versatile weapon).

Umm, yeah, that what I was referring to when I said it looks awkward and breaks immersion. If one of my players suddenly grew horns, got on all fours than proceeded to ram the enemy while simultaneously holding a shield than it would probably cause me to laugh before I do anything else. It’s certainly... weird and unnatural, but not quite what I was going for...



The aberrations arm would grow a natural shield: a disk like the frill on a triceratops skull; a small, dense plate, like the dome of a pachycephalosaurus skull; a wide, scaled arm like pangolin tail; a more conventional but organic shield grown like a crab or tortoise carapace over one arm.

While less so than the goring two-handed weapons, this definitely seems a little awkward. Especially considering that most of those things are not typically supposed to go on arms.

Yeah, those natural weapons are definitely strange in the way I am not going for. I will consider adding it in as an alternate feature to awakened mind for those that do not think it is odd though. But for now, let us just agree to disagree because I do not know how much more cases we can bring to ague with.



Are there any other grievances you have with the aberration that I have not addressed? I think we kind of put a close to the barbarian sub-class, natural weapons and forgoing attacks to induce conditions problems. Anything else?

[GalacticAxekick]

Besides the grievances you've mentioned, no.

Though out of curiosity, can I ask what you are going for? What does a humnaoid with the powers of an eldritch abomination look like in your mind? What might their natural armour or weapons look like, and where would they grow?

With (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=chuul) 5th (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=cloaker) edition's (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=gibbering-mouther) various (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=grell) aberrations (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=nothic) in (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=otyugh) mind (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=spectator) I had assumed misplaced and malformed growths were par for course. If not for these, an aberration would only be distinguished to me by the magic it possesses, which really just means making a Lovecraftian-themed spellcasting subclass for the Fighter (an Eldritch Knight, if you will).

[Requilac]

Can I ask what you are going for? What does a humnaoid with the powers of an eldritch abomination look like in your mind? What might their natural armour or weapons look like, and where would they grow?

With (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=chuul) 5th (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=cloaker) edition's (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=gibbering-mouther) various (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=grell) aberrations (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=nothic) in (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=otyugh) mind (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=spectator) I had assumed misplaced and malformed growths were par for course. If not for these, an aberration would only be distinguished to me by the magic it possesses, which really just means making a Lovecraftian-themed spellcasting subclass for the Fighter (an Eldritch Knight, if you will).

To me too, “misplaced and malformed growths” were my perception of what an aberration would look like too. Here is the thing though; just because somehow looks twisted does not make it look lovecraftian. It is like the difference between a beholder and something like a Kobold. The mental image I get from the those natural weapons are just outlandish in a way that generates humor more than it generates revulsion. A humanoid suddenly growing horns, jumping on all fours and then suddenly charging the enemy sounds like something out of “Monty Python and the Holy grail”, not like a lovecraftian Horror. A piece of a creature’s head growing out of your arm (that acts as a shield) is gross and definitely a strange growth but to me it is just odd in a way that makes it more whimsical than it does horrifying. More Like a curse told in a cartoon or children’s tale than the vile twisting present in lovecraftian horror. I think we are envisioning a similar thing for what an aberration looks like, but I probably am not disturbed by the things you are so those things look more random than terrifying to me. Perhaps that does not make any sense. I will add some natural weapons in as an alternate feature to Awaken Mind though (As in the player and their table can choose which one to use), for those that are not getting the same ridiculous image I am.

I think grells are a good example of this. They are extremely weird but I cannot help but think that they look hilarious. A floating brain with a beak and tentacles is definitely strange, but they like a better fit for a circus show than they do in a horror novel. If I were to face on as a player, I would probably be chuckling and making puns the entire time, even if I was badly losing. Come to think of it, I would probably do it especially as much if I were losing.

[JNAProductions]

I think you're lacking in some imagination there, Rel. I can see why you'd find it funny, but at the same time, it should be easy to see why it can be found horrifying.

[GalacticAxekick]

Seconded.

I think we're envisioning things very differently. I said like a horned animal, like a skull, like a pangolin tail, meaning that there's a resemblance, and not a literal set of antlers, a literal skull or a literal tail.

For instance, I didn't imagine a perfectly normal humanoid with perfectly normal antlers running on perfectly normal hands. It was implicit (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/d3/69/1bd3697a963d171b40b9441a63f23a0f.jpg) to me that ramming growth would be crude, and that one or both forelimbs would twist and grow to bear the Aberration's weight. It was implicit to me that the shield-arm would not literally be tricerotops skull or pangolin tail, but that it is plated and scaled as such (http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles/a/1/6/4/6/1/3/1/goliath_process_04.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/1920x-1).

[Requilac]

Fair enough, I concede to my former claims and have given the abberation a natural weapon feature. It is an alternative to the awakened mind feature. I hope it satisfies what you were looking. The image is a lot less ridiculous in my head when you word it that way @Galactic.

I can’t believe it took us nearly all day to agree on this. That is hilarious, I never knew I could be so stubborn. Well, Anything else that I should address?

[Requilac]

So Galactic, you have not posted in about 24 hours so I was wondering, did I address all of your issues and you have nothing left to argue about or do you still have a problem with the class that you would like me to fix? JNA already gave me the okay but I have not yet heard one from you (or Avigor) yet.

[Llama513]

I really like the feel of this archetype, it truly gives the feeling of an alien monster come to rend the living and destroy it enemies, my only issue is with unarmored defense, something feels off about having the ability just be plus con and not including dex, it feels like it would be too powerful for some reason, but I am not entirely sure why, I may just be paranoid, but it might also have to do with being able to match the AC and most likely health pool of a fighter wearing full plate, with out having to spend 1,500 gold, or having disadvantage on stealth, starting at level 3 if you are lucky

[Requilac]

I really like the feel of this archetype, it truly gives the feeling of an alien monster come to rend the living and destroy it enemies, my only issue is with unarmored defense, something feels off about having the ability just be plus con and not including dex, it feels like it would be too powerful for some reason, but I am not entirely sure why, I may just be paranoid, but it might also have to do with being able to match the AC and most likely health pool of a fighter wearing full plate, with out having to spend 1,500 gold, or having disadvantage on stealth, starting at level 3 if you are lucky

Why unarmored defense can either add con and or add dex is so that both a strength fighter or dex fighter would both want go unarmored. And keep in mind that they can match AC of a full plate fighter yes, but not until level 6 at max and even then they have to invest at least two ability score improvements (assuming that they start out with 16 con or dex) to get 18 base AC. Lizardfolk and draconic sorcerers both get a similar benefit (AC=13+dex) without having to get disadvantage on stealth though, so I doubt that it would be that big of a concern, especially considering that they get it at level 1. I suppose the gold cost could be of some concern, but it seems like a rather miniscual problem.

If other people bring it up or you can prove it that it is unbalanced than I will look into changing it, but for now I will keep it. Let us see what the play-testing will reveal in the future though, i plan on doing that fairly soon. Whenever exactly a week has gone by and there was no arguement put up against me that I could not counter (I wish I could find a better word) , then I would go into play-testing. So far the planned date is the 12th, since that is 7 days away from when I agreed to give the Aberrations natural weapons after an incessant arguement witrh GalacticAxeKick.

[Llama513]

Why unarmored defense can either add con and or add dex is so that both a strength fighter or dex fighter would both want go unarmored. And keep in mind that they can match AC of a full plate fighter yes, but not until level 6 at max and even then they have to invest at least two ability score improvements (assuming that they start out with 16 con or dex) to get 18 base AC. Lizardfolk and draconic sorcerers both get a similar benefit (AC=13+dex) without having to get disadvantage on stealth though, so I doubt that it would be that big of a concern, especially considering that they get it at level 1. I suppose the gold cost could be of some concern, but it seems like a rather miniscual problem.

If other people bring it up or you can prove it that it is unbalanced than I will look into changing it, but for now I will keep it. Let us see what the play-testing will reveal in the future though, i plan on doing that fairly soon. Whenever exactly a week has gone by and there was no arguement put up against me that I could not counter (I wish I could find a better word) , then I would go into play-testing. So far the planned date is the 12th, since that is 7 days away from when I agreed to give the Aberrations natural weapons after an incessant arguement witrh GalacticAxeKick.

That's fair, and in truth my pointing out was that I got a feeling of worry about it, it is most likely just fine

[GalacticAxekick]

So Galactic, you have not posted in about 24 hours so I was wondering, did I address all of your issues and you have nothing left to argue about or do you still have a problem with the class that you would like me to fix? JNA already gave me the okay but I have not yet heard one from you (or Avigor) yet.We still disagree in some fundamental ways (Fighter vs Sorcerer subclass, cursing equipped weapons vs having innate powers) but I have nothing new to say on those matters. I can agree to disagree.

[Requilac]

We still disagree in some fundamental ways (Fighter vs Sorcerer subclass, cursing equipped weapons vs having innate powers) but I have nothing new to say on those matters. I can agree to disagree.

I did create an alternate feature to Awakend mind which allows you to gain natural weapons if you would like to look at that. But, yes, we did have some clearly different views on certain subjects. I hope that I did not seem too stubborn or unreasonable though, I really was considering and looking into your ideas. Although, my comprehension of those ideas could have been better. I really did think that your intense opposition made me think on a deeper level as to why I made the decisions that I did. In a way, I fe as if the debating caused the class to become more solidly built, which is exactly what I was going for in a PEACH thread.

[Requilac]

The play-testing for the Aberration has been completed and the final verdict shows that it is indeed balanced and ready to be used in campaigns. For those of you who are interested in the process that I went through, go the second link in the original post opens up a google document where I recorded all my findings. I will now consider the aberration in its final draft and it is completely finished and hashed out. Now that it has been completed, suggestions about changing it will be considered but are unlikely to happen. Thank you to everyone who has participated in the creation of this sub-class! It would have been extremely hard to build this on my own, and your help has allowed it to turn into a well-balanced and thematic archetype. I hope that Those of you that have shown an interest in this sub-class enjoy playing as or seeing someone play as an aberration. Several changes have been made since the original draft so make sure to check in on it if you have not visited it in a while. Good luck and thank you all for showing an interest in my homebrewed creations.

Edit: also, anyone who has a good idea of a picture to use to represent the aberration please speak up. I can’t seem to find a suitable one yet and I think it improves the perception of them if a picture is put in. It is not necessary, but it is still a useful addition.