Is devil's sight useful without the darkness combo?

[Rfkannen]

Howdy!

So I was thinking about takeing devil's sight, as it fit my character, but I don't want to break the game so I'm not going to do the darkness combo (I've heard it is overly powerful) And anyway my character has never been hit by an attack so far, so I don't think it will be that useful. Also my xharacter is a teifling so already has darkvision. So I'm worried that the invokation will be useless.

Is it still worth takeing devil's sight without the combo and with darkvision? Thinking no, but want your opinions.

[Unoriginal]

Well, did your character ever fought anyone who used a Darkness spell, before? Is your campaign happening in the Underdark/does it makes you fight Drow?


I don't think the combo is that broken, but how much Devil's Sight will help you depends of your DM and your campaign.

[Spacehamster]

Howdy!

So I was thinking about takeing devil's sight, as it fit my character, but I don't want to break the game so I'm not going to do the darkness combo (I've heard it is overly powerful) And anyway my character has never been hit by an attack so far, so I don't think it will be that useful. Also my xharacter is a teifling so already has darkvision. So I'm worried that the invokation will be useless.

Is it still worth takeing devil's sight without the combo and with darkvision? Thinking no, but want your opinions.

Well obviously its not as good but it still protects you if a enemy casts darkness on you, but ye as a race that already has dark vision I would not take it

[Lombra]

You can go for the combo, it's gonna nerf itself after the first time that you use it improperly by having the other party members yelling at you for putting the darkness in the way of everyone else.

[Laserlight]

Howdy!

So I was thinking about takeing devil's sight, as it fit my character, but I don't want to break the game so I'm not going to do the darkness combo (I've heard it is overly powerful) And anyway my character has never been hit by an attack so far, so I don't think it will be that useful. Also my xharacter is a teifling so already has darkvision. So I'm worried that the invokation will be useless.

Is it still worth takeing devil's sight without the combo and with darkvision? Thinking no, but want your opinions.

If you have Darkvision as a racial, and don't plan to use Darkness, and based on your campaign you don't expect foes throwing Darkness, then no, you don't need Devil's Sight.

Darkness + Devil's Sight is nice but it's not OP. It takes concentration, so if you're using it you're not using Hex or some of the other ways to boost your damage. Since it has a fairly short duration, you're probably casting it with your first action in combat, thus falling behind in the action economy. If you're close to the enemy you can use it to give yourself advantage on attacks as well as giving them disadvantage when attacking you, but that means you're within melee range; and "disadvantage" doesn't make you invulnerable--particularly if they have an AoE caster or Dispel. And if you're straight warlock you only get two slots per SR, which means you probably cast Darkness on each of two fights but never cast, say, Shatter.

On the other hand, lots of people have gotten the impression that using Darkness cripples the rest of your party. I suppose if you're a bladelock and spend a lot of time fighting in constricted spaces with rough terrain, that might be true...but I spent four levels as a Darkness hexblade and had exactly one turn in which one party member didn't have a target because Darkness was in the way. If you don't pay attention to your maneuvering, YMMV.

[Joe dirt]

Depends on the race.. if u have a race that doesnt have darkvision then it makes perfect sense to take it. Plus normal darkvision is only out to 60 ft but this is out to 120 ft a good DM should give u a perception check before anyone else because u should see things out to twice normal distance

[Potato_Priest]

Back home, magical darkness was as common as weather, so I'd be inclined to say that it is still awesome. My perceptions may be skewed based on the tables I played at, however.

[SharkForce]

darkvision 120 foot range is already not bad at all, even if you don't make use of the ability to see in magical darkness.

furthermore, darkvision + devil's sight actually complement each other quite nicely. PHB darkvision lets you see in dim light as if it were full light, but only turns darkness into dim light. devil's sight gives you "normal" vision in darkness (so presumably the equivalent of well lit), but does nothing to help with dim light for some reason.

even if you don't use darkness yourself (and while i would certainly avoid thinking of it as something that you always do every single time no matter the circumstances, i do think you should use it from time to time, depending on what else you might need your concentration for and how effectively you can use the darkness without interfering with the rest of your party), you're getting some value just from the 120 foot range full vision in natural darkness, imo. in many situations, it should allow you to spot others in darkness well before they have any chance of seeing you, which means you should at least occasionally get surprise out of it.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Don't forget the other spell combo for Devil's Sight: if you cast Hunger of Hadar, Devil's Sight will let you see targets in its area of effect, and Eldritch Blast them with impunity. (Possibly with Advantage if they can't see you.) Throw in a Repelling Blast to keep them in there for a while....

[Elric VIII]

Don't forget the other spell combo for Devil's Sight: if you cast Hunger of Hadar, Devil's Sight will let you see targets in its area of effect, and Eldritch Blast them with impunity. (Possibly with Advantage if they can't see you.) Throw in a Repelling Blast to keep them in there for a while....

Note that according to sage advice (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/09/can-a-warlock-with-devils-sight-see-within-hunger-of-hadar/) it does not let you see through Hunger.

[Dalebert]

\Darkness + Devil's Sight is nice but it's not OP.
<snip>

That was practically verbatim what I was about to post, including the rest of your explanation that followed. Based on your reasons, my shadow monk with a 2 level warlock dip for this invocation didn't use it nearly as much as I expected. If the situation doesn't particularly call for it, it's just a wasted action, wasted ki points, wasted concentration slot, and extra terrain complication. I took mobile and was really fast so I could move in, attack, and move out to allow allies to be unhindered and it still wasn't too common of a tactic.

As for is it good if you don't use Darkness? Here's something to consider that people tend to overlook, including most DMs.

Creatures have disadvantage on perception in dim light. Darkvision turns total darkness into dim light. Hence, creatures relying on darkvision in the dark should be -5 on passive perception and rolling any active checks with disadvantage. If you're a rogue stealthing ahead that should help you tremendously on hiding. If you're scouting as many rogues (and shadow monks) are inclined to do, you don't just need to be hidden. You need to notice the enemy before they discover your party. A stealty but non-perceptive scout can sneak right past the enemy and only discover them as the sounds of combat erupt behind them when the enemy sees the rest of your party.

Devil's Sight makes you see normally in total darkness. You have a massive advantage over even drow. You don't have disadvantage while practically everything else does. You'll probably need to remind your DM of this when you're scouting until that fact finally sinks in.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Note that according to sage advice (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/09/can-a-warlock-with-devils-sight-see-within-hunger-of-hadar/) it does not let you see through Hunger.

I just love how JC offers exactly zero reasoning or justification for Devil's Sight being able to see the the magical darkness created by one spell, but somehow completely ineffective against the magical darkness created by another spell. This is exactly why the phrase "rulings not rules" is meaningless drivel; either Devil's Sight can see through magical darkness, or it can't. This case by case "because JC said so" exception is nonsense.

[Lombra]

I just love how JC offers exactly zero reasoning or justification for Devil's Sight being able to see the the magical darkness created by one spell, but somehow completely ineffective against the magical darkness created by another spell. This is exactly why the phrase "rulings not rules" is meaningless drivel; either Devil's Sight can see through magical darkness, or it can't. This case by case "because JC said so" exception is nonsense.

Hunger doesn't create magical darkness, it opens a portal to an otherwordly region full of BLACKness, creatures are blinded because they step in the border of a dark realm, you can't see through because it's not just 20ft of darkness, it's a window on another dimension of unlimited void.

At least that's how I'd justify it. Think of it like the obscurement caused by being in very deep waters, it's not just the absence of light, you're in a denser fluid that impedes your sight.

[Dalebert]

I think it's fine to disagree with Crawford's ruling. That said, I also think it's fine to agree with him as I do. I started off thinking Devil's Sight worked for it but changed my mind after his ruling because I thought he made sense.

Although it does start with "dark between the stars", it also describes it as "sphere of blackness and bitter cold" and "void". That's what makes me think of it as more of an inky black fog of obscurement. I picture it as billowy clouds of thick inky black smoke. It's not simply magical darkness and it never describes it as such which is the term I think they would use if that's all that was intended to keep people from being able to see in it.

The other reason I decided to agree is because it's just too OP. It's already a sick spell of awesomeness. Warlocks can already use their EBs to push things back into it. That they could then also continue to attack with advantage is just beyond ridiculous. His ruling was actually a relief, even though I've got my own warlocks who would love to do such ridiculous things.

[Elric VIII]

I think it's fine to disagree with Crawford's ruling. That said, I also think it's fine to agree with him as I do. I started off thinking Devil's Sight worked for it but changed my mind after his ruling because I thought he made sense.

Although it does start with "dark between the stars", it also describes it as "sphere of blackness and bitter cold" and "void". That's what makes me think of it as more of an inky black fog of obscurement. I picture it as billowy clouds of thick inky black smoke. It's not simply magical darkness and it never describes it as such which is the term I think they would use if that's all that was intended to keep people from being able to see in it.

The other reason I decided to agree is because it's just too OP. It's already a sick spell of awesomeness. Warlocks can already use their EBs to push things back into it. That they could then also continue to attack with advantage is just beyond ridiculous. His ruling was actually a relief, even though I've got my own warlocks who would love to do such ridiculous things.

I just assume it sets up a barrier where no electromagnetic radiation can penetrate. No darkvision, no x-ray, no infrared, etc.

Plus, as you say, it would be way too unbalanced if you could attack into it, especially with the new invocation in Xanathar's that lets EB decrease speed by 10ft. Many enemies could never escape since it's all difficult terrain, even if you try and fly up out of it. Just EB and knock back 10 ft and reduce speed by 10ft. Yikes.

[Dalebert]

...especially with the new invocation in Xanathar's that lets EB decrease speed by 10ft.

Awe, man! Even so, can you imagine a warlock/sorc who casts slowing EBs and then quickens it?

[Joe the Rat]

To the OP: If human/halfling/dragonborn/kenku/goliath/non-fire genasi, yes, yes it is always worthwhile. you can see in the dark.

More broadly, you have longer-distance vision (twice standard), have full acuity in darkness, and can see though everyone else's magical darkness. That's still useful. If you have Devil's Sight, the Green Devil head becomes a bit more obvious. The dim light thing is odd, but I'd consider playing it. "Crap, here he comes! Light some candles so he can't see us!"

On HoH: referring to said devil's head, Hunger of Hadar could be seen as impenetrable for the same reason - it's creating a void. While the Sphere is a full destruction void, Hunger is more of a border-void full of overly friendly albino Hutts. Space does not have the aether necessary to propogate whatever the hell Devil's Sight is using for sight rays to allow you to see.

But that's not how I'm using it. I would treat it as obscurement because the sphere of blackness is a spatial distortion - it's difficult terrain because you aren't moving entirely in Euclidean directions. Those are the directions that the friendly feelers come from. But I also have said wiggly bits attack everything in the sphere. this means wall, floors, plants, everything gets licked like something's trying to get to the tootsie-roll center of material existence.

Ultimately, I decided to allow Devils Sight to work in Hunger of Hadar, provided you are willing to look into the warping space and see the pale horrors that writhe within. Sanity rules, anyone?

[Millstone85]

Some possible flavors for the "blackness" of HoH:
* According to Dragon#393, "Hadar is the extinguished cinder of a star". So, a sentient black hole. This is a whole new level of magical darkness.
* Also from Dragon#393, Hadar is "lurking within the cloaking nebula of Ihbar" which is itself described with "A dark nebula between the stars, Ihbar is slowly expanding and eating the light of neighboring constellations". More than darkness, this implies some kind of fog.
* With its tentacles, Hadar could also be seen as a space squid. So maybe the blackness is space ink.

[mephnick]

You can go for the combo, it's gonna nerf itself after the first time that you use it improperly by having the other party members yelling at you for putting the darkness in the way of everyone else.

Hah, pretty much my experience with it too. Warlock player read about it online, proceeded to use it a couple times to the anger of literally everyone else in the party, then exchanged it as soon as possible for something else.

It's my go-to example of white room theory vs actual game-play. If you're going to stand in a corner and EB while covered in darkness, fine I guess. It's not worth the invocations, but it's fine. SUPER AWESOME COMBO THAT EVERY WARLOCK SHOULD TAKE...it is not.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hah, pretty much my experience with it too. Warlock player read about it online, proceeded to use it a couple times to the anger of literally everyone else in the party, then exchanged it as soon as possible for something else.

It's my go-to example of white room theory vs actual game-play. If you're going to stand in a corner and EB while covered in darkness, fine I guess. It's not worth the invocations, but it's fine. SUPER AWESOME COMBO THAT EVERY WARLOCK SHOULD TAKE...it is not.

My warlock player had a similar experience. Now he uses it to cut off line of sight in dungeons and if he's on watch at night.

[SharkForce]

I just love how JC offers exactly zero reasoning or justification for Devil's Sight being able to see the the magical darkness created by one spell, but somehow completely ineffective against the magical darkness created by another spell. This is exactly why the phrase "rulings not rules" is meaningless drivel; either Devil's Sight can see through magical darkness, or it can't. This case by case "because JC said so" exception is nonsense.


Hunger doesn't create magical darkness, it opens a portal to an otherwordly region full of BLACKness, creatures are blinded because they step in the border of a dark realm, you can't see through because it's not just 20ft of darkness, it's a window on another dimension of unlimited void.

At least that's how I'd justify it. Think of it like the obscurement caused by being in very deep waters, it's not just the absence of light, you're in a denser fluid that impedes your sight.

i think of it as an actual interdimensional boundary, more or less. your devil's sight could see in the darkness just fine, but not through the rip in space-time you've just created. it isn't just darkness, it's a fold in space that you just surrounded people in. i'm actually a bit surprised. i think i mentioned my ruling a long time ago (might not have been clear, and it certainly wasn't a popular answer), and i think this is the first time the sage would rule on an unclear thing the same as i would.

[Rfkannen]

Well darn, really fits the characters atort, but it just doesn't seem particularly useful.

Anyone have any tips on what would be useful for a celestial patron tome pact warlock who has agonizing blast and nook of shadows? Not sure what else to take.

(Actually I startes this thread because I'm leveling to 4 and thought I got an invocation then lol, messed that up. Donyou think I should take War caster or inspiring leader?)