How to handle surprise attacks?

[Elric VIII]

I had a situation come up in a game where some of my players were doing the "confront the BBEG" speech prior to fighting him and one player wanted to surprise attack him. What I had him do was roll a DC 18 (dex) deception check to simulate him moving into position to strike while the others were talking. He succeeded so I gave him advantage on his initiative roll. I began combat after his check, however, he rolled fairly poorly and the BBEG went before him.

He argued that he should get a surprise attack because he "acted before initiative." I tried explaining that initiative is not something that happens once everyone knows they are fighting, but models the ability of opposing parties to react to each other in a conflict situation. What I feel that means is the intent to perform an act of aggression calls for initiative to determine how well everyone in the situation reacts. The player still feels cheated.

How would you handle scenarios like this? What mechanics do you think would work best here?

[Aett_Thorn]

I had a situation come up in a game where some of my players were doing the "confront the BBEG" speech prior to fighting him and one player wanted to surprise attack him. What I had him do was roll a DC 18 (dex) deception check to simulate him moving into position to strike while the others were talking. He succeeded so I gave him advantage on his initiative roll. I began combat after his check, however, he rolled fairly poorly and the BBEG went before him.

He argued that he should get a surprise attack because he "acted before initiative." I tried explaining that initiative is not something that happens once everyone knows they are fighting, but models the ability of opposing parties to react to each other in a conflict situation. What I feel that means is the intent to perform an act of aggression calls for initiative to determine how well everyone in the situation reacts. The player still feels cheated.

How would you handle scenarios like this? What mechanics do you think would work best here?

I would say that you handled this fairly well, but could have done it differently.

Remember that there are surprise rules in the books. There's really no such thing as a 'surprise round', only that individuals can either be surprised or not. If they are not, then they act normally. If they are, they just don't get to take actions or reactions on the first round (basically).

However, in this case, if the BBEG was surprised, even if his initiative was higher than the character that wanted to surprise him, then he shouldn't have been able to do much his first round, and then the 'surpriser' would have been able to go anyways.

[Slipperychicken]

The rules for surprise in PHB 189 call for dex(stealth) opposed by wis(perception) to determine if combatants notice a threat. If they fail to notice the threat, then combatants other than the ambushers (including any of the ambushers' allies who did not notice) cannot move, take actions (by extension cannot take bonus actions), or take reactions during the first round of combat regardless of how well they rolled for initiative.

I think the best way to do it is to have everyone present make that perception roll to determine if they're considered surprised by the PC's attack, then just follow the rules for surprise as they're laid out in the book. You might choose to apply advantage or disadvantage to the stealth and perception, depending on the precise details of the situation; I'd likely give the PC disadvantage if he was just moving outside the baddie's field-of-view instead of actually hiding somewhere.

[mephnick]

He argued that he should get a surprise attack because he "acted before initiative."

Yeah this is a fast path down to an unplayable game.

[RSP]

I would say that you handled this fairly well, but could have done it differently.

Remember that there are surprise rules in the books. There's really no such thing as a 'surprise round', only that individuals can either be surprised or not. If they are not, then they act normally. If they are, they just don't get to take actions or reactions on the first round (basically).

However, in this case, if the BBEG was surprised, even if his initiative was higher than the character that wanted to surprise him, then he shouldn't have been able to do much his first round, and then the 'surpriser' would have been able to go anyways.

One other thing: when determining surprise, per RAW, if a character (pc or npc) is aware of any opponents, there is no surprise. So if the BBEG was aware of any of the other party members, they wouldn't be surprised.

If only the one PC was hidden, I wouldn't have the BBEG target then or even be aware of their presence, however, they would be able to act against those party members they were aware of.

Circumstances dependent, but I'd probably give the character(s) that passed their Stealth check Advantage on their 1st attack roll as an "unseen attacker" and reward for successfully sneaking (and because the BBEG wouldn't be expecting said attack).

[RSP]

...or take reactions during the first round of combat regardless of how well they rolled for initiative.

Actually, Surprised characters can take Reactions after their turn ends, so higher initiative rolls are still helpful during that first round.

[LtPowers]

So if the BBEG was aware of any of the other party members, they wouldn't be surprised.

Not exactly; the opponent only needs to be unaware that there are enemies present. In this situation, he doesn't know that the party are enemies (that is, enemy combatants, in the sense of currently engaging in hostilities), so he could still be surprised.


Powers &8^]

[LeonBH]

Your player had to roll three dice (two rolls, one with advantage). The odds were against them than if you just had them roll initiative right away.

Their high DC deception check essentially boiled down to nothing because all it got them was an advantage to their initiative roll, which they then failed. The reason they feel cheated is because their high roll ended up doing nothing for them.

Your reasoning makes sense, but I think, moving forward, try to keep with the idea of "have a successful check do something tangible." Granting advantage on a roll can still fail. Ask them next time what they're trying to accomplish before you ask for a roll.

On the player's part, if they wanted to surprise the BBEG, they should have declared that as their intention before you asked for the deception check. That way, you only have to rule if they were successful at achieving their goal. You don't have to make a ruling that might end up making the player feel cheated.

[Mellack]

I think giving them advantage on initiative was more than fair. The BBEG was aware of them, and even knew they were hostile, so surprise was impossible by them (another hidden creature possibly could). Everyone should have been ready for violence to start at any time. Moreover, there is no such thing as attacking before initiative. Attacking triggers initiative but if surprised that creature doesn't get to act on the first round. I think you played it correctly.

[Tanarii]

How would you handle scenarios like this? What mechanics do you think would work best here?
I wouldn't even allow the PC to Hide if they BBEG was aware of them and they didn't have some ability or magic to change that, or some kind of terrain feature that was big enough for the BBEG to lose track of them completely. I'd also have the BBEG react to one of the Pcs suddenly trying to scatter to a hiding place or use some magic or ability to suddenly drop off the grid, so to speak. Probably by initiating combat themselves. Roll for initiative as usual would determine if the Hiding party manage to Hide and then attack before that happened.

But not surprise, either way. This is a Mexican standoff situation. The BBEG is already aware there are threats, including the enemy that just dropped off the grid.

What I would do is given a hidden party advantage on their attack as normal, and not have the BBEG target someone they don't know exactly where they are, unless they had an AoE and that's their likely action. Or unless they would do something else to detect and attack the person taking the fairly obvious hostile action like running for cover or disappearing invisibly.

[RSP]

Not exactly; the opponent only needs to be unaware that there are enemies present. In this situation, he doesn't know that the party are enemies (that is, enemy combatants, in the sense of currently engaging in hostilities), so he could still be surprised.


Powers &8^]

For some reason I read the OP as hiding and not just a deception check, though I'd say if the BBEG is giving his evil guy monologue to the "heroes," the BBEG is well aware that the party are enemy combatants.

[Spiritchaser]

I had a situation come up in a game where some of my players were doing the "confront the BBEG" speech prior to fighting him and one player wanted to surprise attack him. What I had him do was roll a DC 18 (dex) deception check to simulate him moving into position to strike while the others were talking. He succeeded so I gave him advantage on his initiative roll. I began combat after his check, however, he rolled fairly poorly and the BBEG went before him.

He argued that he should get a surprise attack because he "acted before initiative." I tried explaining that initiative is not something that happens once everyone knows they are fighting, but models the ability of opposing parties to react to each other in a conflict situation. What I feel that means is the intent to perform an act of aggression calls for initiative to determine how well everyone in the situation reacts. The player still feels cheated.

How would you handle scenarios like this? What mechanics do you think would work best here?

In order for surprise to be possible, the target cannot be expecting attack. That isn't necessarily the same as not being able to see the target.

I don't have enough context to understand if this was possible in your scenario, but quite apart from the mechanics for achieving surprise, I'd argue that with most arch villains, in most circumstances, are likely to at least consider the possibility of attack from the party if the party is in the room with them. In most cases, I'd likely rule that surprise was impossible.

Now: maybe in this case the party could realistically have convinced their target not to expect attack, that one's really up to the finer points and the context.

[Elric VIII]

Thanks for the replies.

The scenario was that the party was following the trail of the BBEG cleric through a buried ruin. The BBEG was looking for a portal that served as a threshold into a coterminous plane that contained powerful relics of the ancient civilization through whose ruins they were traveling. The party confronted the BBEG in the portal chamber and the party cleric began asking him why he is doing this (he had previously been an ally and it was implied he had been corrupted). This is when the ranger wanted to try and attack. I had him roll (dex) deception instead of (dex) stealth because the BBEG was fully aware of them, but I wanted to allow the player the opportunity to play out a scene like those in which the villian and hero are confronting each other while maneuvering around.


I would say that you handled this fairly well, but could have done it differently.

Remember that there are surprise rules in the books. There's really no such thing as a 'surprise round', only that individuals can either be surprised or not. If they are not, then they act normally. If they are, they just don't get to take actions or reactions on the first round (basically).

However, in this case, if the BBEG was surprised, even if his initiative was higher than the character that wanted to surprise him, then he shouldn't have been able to do much his first round, and then the 'surpriser' would have been able to go anyways.

I didn't think this would be handled quite like the attack-from-shadows type of surprise. It's more like some guy you're having and argument with in a bar takes a swing at you. Sometimes you're going to see it coming, other times not.


Yeah this is a fast path down to an unplayable game.

I agree.


Your player had to roll three dice (two rolls, one with advantage). The odds were against them than if you just had them roll initiative right away.

Their high DC deception check essentially boiled down to nothing because all it got them was an advantage to their initiative roll, which they then failed. The reason they feel cheated is because their high roll ended up doing nothing for them.

Your reasoning makes sense, but I think, moving forward, try to keep with the idea of "have a successful check do something tangible." Granting advantage on a roll can still fail. Ask them next time what they're trying to accomplish before you ask for a roll.

On the player's part, if they wanted to surprise the BBEG, they should have declared that as their intention before you asked for the deception check. That way, you only have to rule if they were successful at achieving their goal. You don't have to make a ruling that might end up making the player feel cheated.

It's still only two rolls. Advantage cannot make a check more difficult compared to not having advantage. I really don't get the reasoning here, it seems like you're saying that unless something has a 100% chance of success, any increase in the chance of success is meaningless. You wouldn't let PCs auto-hit on attack rolls just because they have advantage, right?


I wouldn't even allow the PC to Hide if they BBEG was aware of them and they didn't have some ability or magic to change that, or some kind of terrain feature that was big enough for the BBEG to lose track of them completely. I'd also have the BBEG react to one of the Pcs suddenly trying to scatter to a hiding place or use some magic or ability to suddenly drop off the grid, so to speak. Probably by initiating combat themselves. Roll for initiative as usual would determine if the Hiding party manage to Hide and then attack before that happened.

But not surprise, either way. This is a Mexican standoff situation. The BBEG is already aware there are threats, including the enemy that just dropped off the grid.

What I would do is given a hidden party advantage on their attack as normal, and not have the BBEG target someone they don't know exactly where they are, unless they had an AoE and that's their likely action. Or unless they would do something else to detect and attack the person taking the fairly obvious hostile action like running for cover or disappearing invisibly.

No one was actually hidden here. What I was trying to do was allow the player to set up a scenario where he was able to use the distraction of the BBEG talking to the cleric to move close enough to attack (hence the deception check with dex). As far as I can tell, the player did not want to try and sneak away and hide, he wanted to move up to the enemy and hit him.

[Malifice]

Not exactly; the opponent only needs to be unaware that there are enemies present. In this situation, he doesn't know that the party are enemies (that is, enemy combatants, in the sense of currently engaging in hostilities), so he could still be surprised.


Powers &8^]

Pretty sure the BBEG recognises the adventurers standing before him as enemies.

The OP did it right. There is no 'acting before initiative' because initiative determines how fast you can act.

[mephnick]

For what it's worth I wouldn't have allowed anything. Like if you attack a dude at a gala who can see you but isn't expecting hostilities...I can be swayed to allow surprise.

But a dude in full view in a tense moment like that? No way.

Your player should probably be stoked he got any advantage.

[Tanarii]

No one was actually hidden here. What I was trying to do was allow the player to set up a scenario where he was able to use the distraction of the BBEG talking to the cleric to move close enough to attack (hence the deception check with dex). As far as I can tell, the player did not want to try and sneak away and hide, he wanted to move up to the enemy and hit him.Yeah, no way. As far as I'm concerned you already gave him a huge bonus by giving him advantage on his intuitive check, in a situation that is what initiative is actually for in the first place. The sudden eruption of violence when both sides are perfectly aware each other are a threat.

I would allow Deception vs Insight to replace Stealth vs Perception for an entire side (not for one individual on a side), if it was a social situation where the enemy was not actually aware the other side was a threat, but they're in plain view, but disguised. For example, mephnik's gala situation, if assassins were ambushing the PCs or the Pcs were ambushing some nobles, all in plain sight with hidden weapons, one side disguised as servants. Something like that.

But never in a Mexican standoff situation where one side is talking, and violence suddenly erupts. Like I said, that's what initiative is for.

[Elric VIII]

Well, based on the input I think the player is just pushing for an unfair advantage. Next time I'll ask him what exactly he wants to happen and let him dictate the way it unfolds if it isn't unbalanced.

[Zippee]

The rules for surprise in PHB 189 call for dex(stealth) opposed by wis(perception) to determine if combatants notice a threat. If they fail to notice the threat, then combatants other than the ambushers (including any of the ambushers' allies who did not notice) cannot move, take actions (by extension cannot take bonus actions), or take reactions during the first round of combat regardless of how well they rolled for initiative.

Pretty sure they get to take reactions in the round once their initiative point turn has passed

[mephnick]

Pretty sure they get to take reactions in the round once their initiative point turn has passed

Yep, hence why doing it properly is so important. Giving someone a chance to pop a shield, counterspell, parry or PAM opportunity attack if they win initiative could be a big deal.