Who to blame (thought experiment) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

LeonBH

2017-11-05, 10:47 AM

Without context, I would blame nobody.

If I wanted to blame the player, I would say, they should have known better than to travel around with that sword in full display. Next time they get a magic weapon, they should sheath it and make it look awful, or travel via more stealthy means.

If I wanted to blame the DM, I would say, how can they not even let the player roll initiative? Being "no match" for someone in damage doesn't mean you can't match someone in combat. If they were riding a horse, all you have to do is kill the horse and run away. If you were near the woods, you can hide behind an endless sea of trees. Moreover, how dare they just take away my cool magic item?

But if I were really to put myself in the DM's shoes, I'm going to guess that the party is not quite at a high level right now, and maybe I handed out a magic item that's too powerful for them at their level. It's ruining all my encounters and I need it to go away.

The DM really should have talked it over with the player if their intention was to restore balance to their encounters, so that the weapon didn't just disappear.

Aett_Thorn

2017-11-05, 10:48 AM

I would blame the DM. After all, they are the one who decided to have the party encounter the patrol, give the players knowledge that they were likely no match for the patrol, and then had the guard take the sword with his meta-knowledge that the players would likely not attack the patrol for stealing.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-11-05, 10:49 AM

If the player blames the sergeant, or the character blames the DM, then there is obviously some confusion involved.

Unoriginal

2017-11-05, 11:36 AM

As a player, who do you blame for this?

I blame the players, the one whose PC had the magic weapon more than the others.

We're playing D&D, with heroes, not Robbing Simulator. Why the heck would the PCs just stand there while they're getting robbed?

Even if the King's Guards were so massively overpowered the PCs had no chance winning a fight, the group could still have fled and escaped. Hell, just hit the Sergeant's mount while he's reaching down, and watch him try to re-take control of it from his impractical position.

I'm not saying the PCs should attack stronger opponents without thinking, but there is a margin between going Leroy Jenkins and passively accepting to get robbed in broad daylight.

You could also go for this hypothetical, if you want to, given how passive those players are:

Monks have offered your PC group a massive amount of gold and some magic item if they manage to discretely bring their holy child to a monastery while the monks are making a diversion.

As you're traveling down the road, a legendary and awe inspiring Green Dragon comes flying down. He's famous for his strength and you know you're no match for him. He stops and look at you. The Dragon says, "Nice child." He reaches down and eat the child in front of you, and then he flies off.

Asmotherion

2017-11-05, 11:40 AM

I'd blame the DM for giving access to a weapon that powerful to a player that low level in the first place, except if it was for a good reason.

I'd blame the player if he backed down from the challenge, going out of character (if he would otherwise not back down from this challenge), and if he used metagame knowlage of who this was.

I would not blame the DM for setting a challenge that could not be resolved by combat, as long as he had in mind an alternative way to resolve the challenge and/or allowed out-of the box solutions. I would blame the DM for setting an Unresolvable encounter whose only solution would be to bail it because of metagame knowlage.

So, ultimatelly there is a mixture of things to consider to answear this question. I don't know if it's a thought experiment, or if it actually happened, but I would need to see all perspectives of a situation before I can judge.

Deleted

2017-11-05, 11:49 AM

You're a low level character in your low level party, and you have a pretty strong magic weapon. Maybe it's a +3 Sword, or a Frost Brand, or a Sword of Sharpness. Either way, it's fancy, it's shiny, it's obviously magical, and it's helped you through some hairy situations since you found it just lying in a dungeon the other week.

As you're traveling down the road, the legendary and awe inspiring King's Guard comes riding up. They're famous for their strength and you know you're no match for them. They stop and look at you. The sergeant says, "Nice sword." He reaches down and takes it from you, and then he rides off.

You've lost your awesome magic weapon.

As a player, who do you blame for this?

1) The King's Guard Sergeant
2) The DM

First, I don't really care about magic items on a majority of my characters in 5e. If I want to play christmas tree 3e and 4e does it waaaaay better.

Actually, I'll purposely not pick up magic items in 5e. At the very least I'll keep them locked away to use as a barter item later in the game. I've totally given up a Giant Slayer to a Half-Orc Chieftain for his daughter's hand in marriage (safe passage through the lands and got some great contacts... Plus potential character to play as if my main character died...)

So, depending on my character I would straight up give up the item right as the King's Guard is looking it over and say something like "Want it, I'll call in my favor some other time. Y'all travel safely now!" and don't give them a chance to react.

Though the DMs in my groups don't really pull this in such a way... Like... A DM would have the King's Guard try to steal but not instantly succeed. Instant success is boring.

So no blame, as things like this wouldn't really happen but if it did... Just take it in stride and call upon a favor later and pretend like that's the initial deal when I later meet that guard.

WhiteBread

2017-11-05, 11:55 AM

Normally I would blame nobody. We don't know what kind of campaign that is.

Considering however that there is only one answer: 1. PC controlled by DM 2. DM, I would guess it means the DM is the one to blame.

On a more serious note. If that is not a plot hook and/or the DM gave the PC no Chance to fight back. I would quit that campaign instantly. There are enough DM's that play with themselves and not with friends. There are better ways to solve problems with overpowered magic items in PC hands. Like giving the sword a title, making it a plot hook to destroy some very specific enemy in the next 2 sessions by sacrificing most of its magic power. This would give the PC a choice, a balanced magic item and a heroic deed to boost instead of empty hands.

Laserlight

2017-11-05, 11:58 AM

As a player, who do you blame for this?

1) The King's Guard Sergeant
2) The DM

Does the King's Guard sergeant exist separately from the DM?

Unoriginal

2017-11-05, 12:04 PM

That being said, this is a collaborative game. "Blaming" someone should normally not go further than a "dude, WTF?" and asking to retcon the stupid away.

Something that actually happened in one of the games in was a player in (though it was not 5e) was the DM deciding that a demon would be able to steal the artifact sword we had grabbed to rescue one of the PCs from hell (and that we needed to give back) and escape without us doing anything.

Needless to say, people weren't happy, if only because the PCs DID have the capacity to stop the Demon before she could escape.

Deleted

2017-11-05, 12:10 PM

Does the King's Guard sergeant exist separately from the DM?

Fun times, let a downed player run monsters and see if they can separate their character from the monsters...

Mitth'raw'nuruo

2017-11-05, 12:21 PM

There is zero chance that King's Guardsmen would live.

Depending on the group, or how they are playing the PCs. he might be hung by the King, or killed by the PCs. Even in a campaign where the players we're objectively evil and would not look askance at highway robbery, of others they would not tolerate robbery of themselves. The value of the item is not the issue, the insult to their person is.

It may take time, but his death would be assured.

There is zero chance that would not happen in any group I've ever played with.

Unoriginal

2017-11-05, 12:22 PM

Does the King's Guard sergeant exist separately from the DM?

Well yes. The sergeant has presumably stats, a description and a way to behave written down somewhere, and if a different person played this adventure they would generally make him act the same.

Potato_Priest

2017-11-05, 02:35 PM

I'd blame the DM, especially if he didn't warn be about this beforehand.

I agree with deleted though, that I don't really especially care about magic items. As long as what I've got overrides nonmagic resistance/immunity, I'll be happy with it.

Vaz

2017-11-05, 02:58 PM

I'd presume that it would be a plothook. I'd be a little miffed with the DM, not going to lie, and depending on my experience or lack thereof, at breaktime, it would be all "dude, y'all better have a plan".

There are certain things that might happen in setting or in universe that you've got to know the party are okay with to do. There are certain things that I can do to one party that I can't do to another.

Some parties don't like cerebral platformer style puzzles, others don't like boss fights, others don't like significant out of combat interaction, and others hate fighting trash fights. Rule 0 is fun, and it takes significant time to plan and play, so why do stuff that people don't like? No point running a Dark Souls style game where they have to get timing minigames down correctly or instadie, only to respawn and try again with the same fight, when the players want to get on with the rp of talking to the queen.

No character does anything without the DM deciding what they do. Does the King's Guard often make a habit of stealing magic items or weapons from adventurers? And what does the king do about, if he is aware? And if not, what is the kings action if/when he does find out?

Nifft

2017-11-05, 03:01 PM

Honest Tiefling

2017-11-05, 03:03 PM

There is zero chance that King's Guardsmen would live.

Yes! Let the flames of chaos burn in your heart! Overthrow the corrupt authority! Viva the revolution! Burn it all!

Depending on the group, or how they are playing the PCs. he might be hung by the King, or killed by the PCs.

MAYBE? Yeah, that guy is deader then MC hammer pants.

But seriously, does blame matter? The guilty burn as well as the not-guilty. If was presented with this scenario, I would assume that a bit of king slaying was on the table. I'd at least try to keep the Marxist references to a minimum, because I'm nice like that.

Unoriginal

2017-11-05, 03:06 PM

. I'd at least try to keep the Marxist references to a minimum, because I'm nice like that.

Clearly you must uproot the tyranny of D&D and make the group play a classless system.

Vaz

2017-11-05, 03:37 PM

Sieze the means of production chargen.

Kane0

2017-11-05, 03:40 PM

Killing that sergeant just became party priority number 1, plot be damned!

What was that old quote? Killing a PCs parents is just a cost of doing business, but steal a PCs boots and then its personal

Sicarius Victis

2017-11-05, 03:51 PM

Clearly you must uproot the tyranny of D&D and make the group play a classless system.

I mean, 4e was a system in which all classes were equal, and everyone hates 4e. If someone tries to make a classless D&D, everyone will hate that as well. Let's all just forget D&D and play some Savage Worlds instead. :smalltongue:

Or better yet, how about HSHC? :smallbiggrin:

Honest Tiefling

2017-11-05, 03:58 PM

Or better yet, how about HSHC? :smallbiggrin:

If this is what I think it is, you are a braver woman then I. If you think that the jerkwad of a guard is going to get it, imagine what happens when you steal a player character's boyfriend!

THERE WILL BE NO SURVIVORS!

LaserFace

2017-11-05, 05:59 PM

Blame? I blame a DM for taking loot, I blame a DM for giving loot, I blame a DM for letting me into their house.

This seems like such a weird question to me. Regardless of who I'd blame in this scenario, it just seems like a bad game. It doesn't seem like that's what you're asking, but if the purpose of the experiment is to determine "Did my player bail on my game because I did this to him/her and they are blaming the wrong person" then you should broaden it to this possibility.

Tanarii

2017-11-05, 06:46 PM

1) The King's Guard Sergeant
2) The DM
Either the DM or the person that wrote the adventure. For giving it to my PC unearned in the first place. Possibly the DMG random loot tables (because those can result in stuff like this).

But if that does happen, it's on my character to defend it after he's been putting on a show of his powerful magical item all over the place in public, and powerful groups are now interested. But clearly this isn't that. It's the DM failing to come to me and say "Look, this is clearly too powerful for your level, we need to balance it out somehow."

If the DM wants to try and convince me the King's Guard patrol came from his random encounters table, my next question is: how did the sergeant suddenly get a Warlocks Eldritch Sight invocation combined with an innate ranged Identify spell?

pwykersotz

2017-11-05, 07:16 PM

Either the DM or the person that wrote the adventure. For giving it to my PC unearned in the first place. Possibly the DMG random loot tables (because those can result in stuff like this).

But if that does happen, it's on my character to defend it after he's been putting on a show of his powerful magical item all over the place in public, and powerful groups are now interested. But clearly this isn't that. It's the DM failing to come to me and say "Look, this is clearly too powerful for your level, we need to balance it out somehow."

If the DM wants to try and convince me the King's Guard patrol came from his random encounters table, my next question is: how did the sergeant suddenly get a Warlocks Eldritch Sight invocation combined with an innate ranged Identify spell?

Nah, you're looking at it all wrong. It isn't a rescinded item, it's a hook!

Tanarii

2017-11-05, 07:50 PM

Nah, you're looking at it all wrong. It isn't a rescinded item, it's a hook!
Yeah, I do have to agree with others that this can only be a death sentence for the Sergeant. And possibly end in regicide.

mgshamster

2017-11-05, 08:30 PM

For those wondering where this came from - it came out of the blue. Kind of. It's an idea I've thought of off and on over the past couple of decades, but I've never taken the question to anyone else. Hell, I've never thought the answer I'd give would be any different than anyone else, until the past several years, that is.

And today, thinking about it once again, I decided to ask others, and it turns out I'm right so far: no one else blame the npc. Pretty much everyone blames the DM to varying degrees, ranging from "whatevs" to "table flipping rage-quit."

This story comes from way back in the day, back when the internet bubble was on the way and Netbooks we're a thing in D&D. Remember those? One such host of Netbooks and other D&D written works was Olik, and on his website was a story called "White Hand" written on a .txt file. I've always remembered it. It's a story written in the first person by the PC, as a journal. You can still find it in the archives. One passage went as such:

At the end of the day we reached Canvale. After setting up camp, six mounted humans, five armed with lances, approached. The walked up to Prothus and drew Prothus' sword right out of its scabbard. He then said "Nice sword", turned around and walked off with it. Arrogant bastard! The five mounted men lowered their lances menacingly.

Prothus and Stenn followed them but their rode into the city and they couldn't get admitted through the city gates. Not until Stenn and Bjonri exerted the prestige of their priestly orders and threatening the disfavour of the gods, did we manage to gain access. By this time, the men we were chasing had disappeared.

[sic]

I remember thinking back then, "What a jerk!" But I never thought that of the DM. I thought it of that sword thief!

And to this day, whenever something bad happens to my PC, I try to think, "What would me PC think of this? Who would my PC become angry with? Who would my PC blame?" That's the person I blame for whatever it is that happened to my PC.

I don't blame the DM. I just try to roll with the story and enjoy the goods and the bads. Whatever happens, it'll make a good story.

Kane0

2017-11-05, 08:45 PM

Hey now, I never blamed the DM!

Your question actually gave me flashbacks of reading The Big One, I don't remember anyone pointing fingers at the DM every time that shifty hireling ruined the party's day in some way. Or the Parrot for that matter.

Vaz

2017-11-05, 08:58 PM

For those wondering where this came from - it came out of the blue. Kind of. It's an idea I've thought of off and on over the past couple of decades, but I've never taken the question to anyone else. Hell, I've never thought the answer I'd give would be any different than anyone else, until the past several years, that is.

And today, thinking about it once again, I decided to ask others, and it turns out I'm right so far: no one else blame the npc. Pretty much everyone blames the DM to varying degrees, ranging from "whatevs" to "table flipping rage-quit."

This story comes from way back in the day, back when the internet bubble was on the way and Netbooks we're a thing in D&D. Remember those? One such host of Netbooks and other D&D written works was Olik, and on his website was a story called "White Hand" written on a .txt file. I've always remembered it. It's a story written in the first person by the PC, as a journal. You can still find it in the archives. One passage went as such:

I remember thinking back then, "What a jerk!" But I never thought that of the DM. I thought it of that sword thief!

And to this day, whenever something bad happens to my PC, I try to think, "What would me PC think of this? Who would my PC become angry with? Who would my PC blame?" That's the person I blame for whatever it is that happened to my PC.

I don't blame the DM. I just try to roll with the story and enjoy the goods and the bads. Whatever happens, it'll make a good story.

What the player thought, and what the character thought are kept entirely seperate. It's testament to the story telling that you're able to suspend illusion that you're reading a script based on a turn based battle system.

Again, my point before comes true; the DM is the ultimate arbiter of events in game. The DM should continue to make things fun for the players, or else he won't have players as they move on. If you're getting through to arbitrary theft of players items, then you need to consider why. If it's for rebalancing, you're probably giving them too much stuff. Rather than stealing them, rebalance the party by giving them better stuff to other players also, and upping the need to use those items in game. Give them an item which powers up and increases in power over the course of the game. Having an encounter forced which would cause a nigh certain death, only to have that item pick over the items that the person has isn't much different than having an encounter forced on them that they cannot handle.

To be outsped, outnumbered, outclassed individually, and be unable to fight back properly without some 3.5esque High Op Nested Contingency Wizard Shenanigans is a bit of a joke of an idea of the encounter.

mgshamster

2017-11-05, 09:08 PM

Hey now, I never blamed the DM!

Fair enough, my friend!

There is no right or wrong answer. It's just a thought experiment. It's designed to make you think. :)

Your question actually gave me flashbacks of reading The Big One, I don't remember anyone pointing fingers at the DM every time that shifty hireling ruined the party's day in some way. Or the Parrot for that matter.

Excellent! Posing a question that creates fond memories means my thread is a success! :)

Tanarii

2017-11-05, 09:15 PM

I remember thinking back then, "What a jerk!" But I never thought that of the DM. I thought it of that sword thief!

And to this day, whenever something bad happens to my PC, I try to think, "What would me PC think of this? Who would my PC become angry with? Who would my PC blame?" That's the person I blame for whatever it is that happened to my PC.

I don't blame the DM. I just try to roll with the story and enjoy the goods and the bads. Whatever happens, it'll make a good story.
That's generally a good attitude. But in this case, I'd want to know ... how did the sergeant know? I mean, even the DM telling me "trust me he had a way" would be something. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all.

Although I suppose if it's previously been established (per your OP) that it's the blingiest of magical bling, it's still valuable in its own right, even without knowing its magical.

Normally I'd also hope the DM would start with "he reaches for your sword in your scabbard" or "he demands you hand over the sword". Just plucking it out of my PCs scabbard without giving me a chance to react assumes an awful lot about my PCs reaction for someone reaching for her sword.

mgshamster

2017-11-05, 10:09 PM

I'd want to know ...

For the original story, the description of the sword is the closest we have to how the NPC knew it was magical:

Prothus received a sword. It looks very fine. It has a copper handle in the form of a dragon's head. Prothus almost drooled over it.

That's it. That's all we have to go on.

But I think it's fair to say that any PC who wants to be able to use that weapon at a moment's notice would also be required to have it readily available for anyone to at least see the hilt.

And I don't know how it played out at the table. Regardless of how it happened at the table, the end result was that the NPC stole the sword from the PC, and the PCs felt they were too outmatch to fight back. They did track them for some time, but lost them at the city gates.

They eventually found them within the city; a battled ensued and they got the sword back. No idea how many sessions that took. Could have all been in the same session. It could have been weeks apart.

But at the time of the theft, you as a player wouldn't know that the DM had an adventure planned for it. All you'd know is that your prized sword was jacked by a jerk.

And at that point, we have our thought experiment. Who is the Jerk: The NPC or the DM?

LordEntrails

2017-11-05, 11:08 PM

DM.
How did the sergeant take the sword without any contest?
Is the king's guard known to be lawful? Because that was an unlawful act.
Why bother having players if the DM is going to strong arm everything?

Vaz

2017-11-06, 02:34 AM

is the king's guard known to be lawful? Because that was an unlawful act.

What if it was legal for the Kings Guard to have any assistance rendered to them and all within the realm with the exception of the King are subservient to their orders?

Complying with Order 66 was a lawful act.

Unoriginal

2017-11-06, 06:18 AM

And today, thinking about it once again, I decided to ask others, and it turns out I'm right so far: no one else blame the npc. Pretty much everyone blames the DM to varying degrees, ranging from "whatevs" to "table flipping rage-quit."

I think you missed something important in what you wrote.

.

As a player, who do you blame for this?

It's a story written in the first person by the PC

I remember thinking back then, "What a jerk!" But I never thought that of the DM. I thought it of that sword thief!

And to this day, whenever something bad happens to my PC, I try to think, "What would me PC think of this? Who would my PC become angry with? Who would my PC blame?" That's the person I blame for whatever it is that happened to my PC.

Of course people aren't going to put themselves in their PC's shoes and ask themselves who the PC blames, *since you asked them who they would blame as players*.

That you blamed the character in the story is because it was a story about what a PC felt, not about the player's opinion. And you didn't answer the question you asked others, since you answered it from the PC viewpoint, not the player one.

If you had asked "from a PC's viewpoint, who do you blame?" no one (or nearly no one) would have said "the DM", because the DM is a meta-element of the game and the narrative, like dice and the like.

Sorry if I sound aggressive, it's not my intention.

Who is the Jerk: The NPC or the DM?

In-universe or in real life?

mgshamster

2017-11-06, 07:05 AM

I think you missed something important in what you wrote

Of course people aren't going to put themselves in their PC's shoes and ask themselves who the PC blames, *since you asked them who they would blame as players*.

That you blamed the character in the story is because it was a story about what a PC felt, not about the player's opinion. And you didn't answer the question you asked others, since you answered it from the PC viewpoint, not the player one.

If you had asked "from a PC's viewpoint, who do you blame?" no one (or nearly no one) would have said "the DM", because the DM is a meta-element of the game and the narrative, like dice and the like.

Sorry if I sound aggressive, it's not my intention.

In-universe or in real life?

Naw, no aggression read into it. It's all good. :)

I don't believe I missed anything.

I think it's an important distinction that most people separate the two and decide to blame the DM when something bad happens to their PC, rather than choosing to keep what happens in game stay in game and blame the NPC.

I specifically asked what people thought as Players, because I was curious to know what goes on through their own minds.

All of my friends said the same thing. They'd choose to blame the DM (or the author if it's a published game), rather than choosing to focus their frustration at a set piece in the game. A similar scenario occurs when a PC is killed - a lot of people I know getting angry with the DM. In my OotA game, when our Bard died, the player was really frustrated with me for letting it happen. It's been nearly a year and the topic still crops up with a jovial "making fun of the DM" comment about how I'm to blame. He's not mad/frustrated/whatever anymore, but I'm still to blame for it. And what happened? Beholder hit his PC with a disintegration ray, he failed his save, damage was higher than his max HP, death.

Another interesting question occurs when you flip the question around:

Let's say our magic weapon from the OP was not acquired by randomly finding it, but rather by solving some challenging problems and overcoming some challenging obstacles and defeating some monsters. This was accomplished, as it is in most D&D games, by rolling lots of dice. Do you:

1) Think that you have earned this weapon
2) Believe this weapon is a gift from the DM

I'll say straight up that number 2 has never even occured to me. When someone gives me a gift, I always say "Thank you." But I've never said thank you to a DM for a magic item found in a game (earned or not). I've never considered the DM as the one responsible for my magic items. I'm willing to bet most people are the same way, and yet most people will also believe the DM is at fault when something bad happens to their PC.

How many people who blame the DM for the bad stuff can honestly say that they also thank the DM for the good stuff?

DeTess

2017-11-06, 07:31 AM

I'd thank the DM for any handouts he gave(oh, you're the only non-caster? Here have some extra points for point-buy), but not for anything I actually earned in game. Similar, I'd not blame the DM for anything that I caused myself in game (death in fair combat, loss of something because I trusted the wrong guy despite there being foreshadowing, etc.), but the moment he forces something on me with no counter-play, I'd blame him. In your example it seems like the GM just forced the loss of the sword, rather than have it happen naturally.

I'd not blame the DM if it had been something along the lines of: "The king's guard saw the blade, and demanded I'd hand it over for some reason. I decided to comply." There's options here for the player to react. He could decide to fight, to run or any other option, but the scenario as it currently is could just as well be described by the DM as "Your blade is suddenly gone. Suck to be you." No decisions, not options to resist here, just the hand of god taking something away. The only moment where that is acceptable is if it was decided by the group OOG to do so because of some balance reason.

Unoriginal

2017-11-06, 07:51 AM

I don't believe I missed anything.

I think it's an important distinction that most people separate the two and decide to blame the DM when something bad happens to their PC, rather than choosing to keep what happens in game stay in game and blame the NPC.

I specifically asked what people thought as Players, because I was curious to know what goes on through their own minds.

What you're missing is if you're asking who would the *player* blame, and not the *PC*, then you get players blaming the people in real life, not in the game.

Because while the NPC is indeed responsible in-game, which is why the PC in the story you've read blamed him, it's the DM who decides that this event happen.

Same thing that if you have a player declare "my Rogue PC decides to make the Ranger PC trip and fall into the deadly cold water of the North Pole, because I find it fun", in-real life it's the Rogue's player who's ****ing up and acting like a jerk, and so it's them who should get a "dude, wtf?", even if in-game the Ranger would blame the Rogue.

Another interesting question occurs when you flip the question around:

Let's say our magic weapon from the OP was not acquired by randomly finding it, but rather by solving some challenging problems and overcoming some challenging obstacles and defeating some monsters. This was accomplished, as it is in most D&D games, by rolling lots of dice. Do you:

1) Think that you have earned this weapon
2) Believe this weapon is a gift from the DM

I'll say straight up that number 2 has never even occured to me. When someone gives me a gift, I always say "Thank you." But I've never said thank you to a DM for a magic item found in a game (earned or not). I've never considered the DM as the one responsible for my magic items. I'm willing to bet most people are the same way, and yet most people will also believe the DM is at fault when something bad happens to their PC.

How many people who blame the DM for the bad stuff can honestly say that they also thank the DM for the good stuff?

If the DM proposes a challenge, and my character beat it and got rewarded for it, I wouldn't consider it a gift or a favor from the DM, I would consider it a reward for an accomplishment.

If the DM does something nice for me, like going along with an idea I had and letting the good results play out, I thanks the DM.

oh, you're the only non-caster? Here have some extra points for point-buy

Why the heck would a DM favor a PC like that?

Deleted

2017-11-06, 08:05 AM

What if it was legal for the Kings Guard to have any assistance rendered to them and all within the realm with the exception of the King are subservient to their orders?

Complying with Order 66 was a lawful act.

Yeah, but order 1 - 55 probably wasn't. Was the standstill to corkscrew lightsaber attack order 65 or 63?

DeTess

2017-11-06, 08:07 AM

Why the heck would a DM favor a PC like that?

It was just the first example I could think of. In dnd 3.5 spellcasters are far more powerful than martials, so a common way I've seen to try to compensate is to give the martials slightly more point-buy. This power disparity is far less pronounced in dnd 5e, so I understand why it seems odd to you.

Unoriginal

2017-11-06, 08:33 AM

It was just the first example I could think of. In dnd 3.5 spellcasters are far more powerful than martials, so a common way I've seen to try to compensate is to give the martials slightly more point-buy. This power disparity is far less pronounced in dnd 5e, so I understand why it seems odd to you.

Oh yeah, I remember it being a thing in 3.X. Sorry, was kinda confused because I thought you were talking about 5e.

mgshamster

2017-11-06, 08:34 AM

Let's take it a step further. Let's change the scenario a few times.

1) Guard demands you hand over the weapon. You say no. Guard reaches for the weapon. Initiative is rolled. Guard and his gang steamroll you, knocks you unconscious, takes the weapon. You wake up some time later, weapon gone.

2) Guard demands you hand over the weapon. You say no. Guard rolls a Slight of Hand check (success) and takes the weapon right out of the sheath, just like I've seen many a thief PC do to an NPC right in the middle of combat. Initiative starts, and you either lose or decide not to fight.

Regardless of the scenario, the rules are played out correctly, you have a choice, and no matter your choice, you lose.

Do you blame the DM?

I suspect many will say yes, for placing that scenario there to begin with (as several have flat out stated on page 1). But then, as we've just seen, people don't also thank the DM for placing a scenario that yields good rewards; instead they feel like they've earned the reward regardless of the DM. I know I don't thank the DM (other than thanking them for running the game in general).

A friend of mine has been running down this same path recently, and takes it a bit further, believing that the concept of failure needs to be removed from D&D. There should never be a failed attack, a failed skill check, a failed combat, a failed mission. The story is about the PCs as heroes, and they should succeed. Therefore, any failed roll should come with something else. Failed attacks should give an ally a bonus, failed skill checks should come with a bit of knowledge or some other benefit, etc... So this scenario pisses him off to no end. It shouldn't exist, as there's no way for the PC to be heroic. The PC loses, no matter what, and no DM should ever place something like this in a game.

I'm not so certain. I'm ok with failure. I'm ok with loss. It happens in every story I've ever read, and as we're creating a story with D&D, I don't see why it shouldn't be a part of this story as well. And hell, sometimes **** happens, but it's all in the story, so I feel that I should focus my energy at the NPCs in the story responsible. Good or bad, I try to not be against the DM, as the DM is just trying to make a good story. And if I focus my energy towards the game and not the creator of the game, I can enhance the story as a part of cooperative story telling.

I don't think my way is right or any one else's way is wrong. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. All I'm really trying to accomplish here is to get people to engage in a thought experiment and hopefully we can all learn something interesting. Sometimes, it's just fun to talk about this stuff. :)

Unoriginal

2017-11-06, 08:51 AM

Let's take it a step further. Let's change the scenario a few times.

1) Guard demands you hand over the weapon. You say no. Guard reaches for the weapon. Initiative is rolled. Guard and his gang steamroll you, knocks you unconscious, takes the weapon. You wake up some time later, weapon gone.

2) Guard demands you hand over the weapon. You say no. Guard rolls a Slight of Hand check (success) and takes the weapon right out of the sheath, just like I've seen many a thief PC do to an NPC right in the middle of combat. Initiative starts, and you either lose or decide not to fight.

Regardless of the scenario, the rules are played out correctly, you have a choice, and no matter your choice, you lose.

Do you blame the DM?

I don't, since the DM played fair. Sometime you'll encounter stuff stronger than you, and that's just it.

I have to point out, though, that the solution of just running away hasn't been discussed, nor the possibility of fending off the Guards despite their strength advantage (ex: social skills, using spells to make them lose sight of what they wanted, or just beating them despite the odds). If the DM played by the rules, those are very real possibilities.

A friend of mine has been running down this same path recently, and takes it a bit further, believing that the concept of failure needs to be removed from D&D. There should never be a failed attack, a failed skill check, a failed combat, a failed mission. The story is about the PCs as heroes, and they should succeed.

Tell your friend that what makes PCs heroes is that they succeed DESPITE the failures and the risks.

You're not a hero if you can't fail. You're a hero if you CAN fail and you don't when the moment is important.

Furthermore, PCs aren't entitled to success. PCs might be stronger than most normal people in the world, but the world doesn't care if your character get shot to death by an pig herder when you try to rob a house.

Also, let's be honest, if the PCs succeeded everything anytime they try, it would be boring as hell.

And hell, sometimes **** happens, but it's all in the story, so I feel that I should focus my energy at the NPCs in the story responsible. Good or bad, I try to not be against the DM, as the DM is just trying to make a good story.

There is a big difference when it's the DM who's ****ing with you or when it's a NPC who manages to defeat you while following the rules, though.

Ex: your PCs have decided to assure the safety of the King, but the DM goes "and when the King is about to start his speech, an assassing shows up, stab him to death, and disappear. The king's dead." This is the DM arbitrarily deciding of events when the PCs should have been able to intervene. It doesn't matter if the PCs fail or succeed, as long as they have the opportunity to act. If the DM decides to railroad a failure or a success, then it's the DM who's at fault, not the NPCs, because it's a meta problem.

mephnick

2017-11-06, 08:53 AM

A friend of mine has been running down this same path recently, and takes it a bit further, believing that the concept of failure needs to be removed from D&D. There should never be a failed attack, a failed skill check, a failed combat, a failed mission. The story is about the PCs as heroes, and they should succeed. Therefore, any failed roll should come with something else.

He's been reading or playing too much of the new age "Fail Forward" "Always say 'Yes and..'" crap that people have been spouting for almost a decade now. What a horrible way to run a game.

Having your stuff stolen should be a major concern for adventurers. Especially once they start leaving loaded pack horses outside dungeons... Oh wait no one tracks encumbrance any more....

Actually I'm going to stop now before I start ranting.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-11-06, 08:55 AM

"I, the player, blame the NPC" reads like imprecise language for "I imagine my game-construct being cheesed with the DM's game-construct and leave it at that" or "I have no grievances with the DM for anything that happens in-game". But the player doesn't have grievances with NPCs unless there really is confusion about the ontological layers, hence why people think it's an odd question.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-11-06, 08:58 AM

I have to point out, though, that the solution of just running away hasn't been discussed

Yeah, these thought experiments are stupid because in real life a Good character would always have the option to divert a trolley on top of the Evil sergeant to avert the postulated outcome!

mgshamster

2017-11-06, 09:07 AM

Actually I'm going to stop now before I start ranting.

That's a shame. I'm sure it would have been a great read. :)

tieren

2017-11-06, 09:29 AM

I have a group playing Curse of Strahd right now.

A big part of the campaign is Strahd showing up and messing with them periodically. At low levels there is very little they can do to stop it, but they [the party] should enjoy the things they can do.

Maybe they try to engage him in discussion, maybe they cast sanctuary and try to ride it out, maybe they run and hide, etc...Its up to them and they get to participate in their characters story, even when victory [in the here in now] is not really an option.

Theoboldi

2017-11-06, 09:49 AM

I blame the witch, the gypsy girl who sent this flame. It's not my fault if in the GM's plan he made the seargant so much stronger than a man.

Okay, yeah, sorry. A stupid Disney reference is all I had to add. Carry on. :smalltongue:

Amdy_vill

2017-11-06, 10:02 AM

The blame rests on the players. they had many options to prevent this. one just not walk on the roads. in my games we try to stay off the roads because we know that bandits and other baddys will set up on the roads. we only use the roads when we know we will be safe like while moving thought a town. two they could have attacked and then leave. they don't need to kill them just hurt. three they could have just hidden the magic item. in my games we tend to keep every thing in our bags of holding or out of sight. our DM, well he does not steal from us out right he usually will have people try to steal thing they think are valuable. this is why we hide every thing it is to avoid fights with thieves.

Tanarii

2017-11-06, 10:22 AM

A similar scenario occurs when a PC is killed - a lot of people I know getting angry with the DM. In my OotA game, when our Bard died, the player was really frustrated with me for letting it happen. It's been nearly a year and the topic still crops up with a jovial "making fun of the DM" comment about how I'm to blame. He's not mad/frustrated/whatever anymore, but I'm still to blame for it. And what happened? Beholder hit his PC with a disintegration ray, he failed his save, damage was higher than his max HP, death. Thats only the same thing if you're running a CaS game. If a DM is, then they're only to blame as a DM for character death if they place an encounter outside the recommended guidelines. If they're running a CaW game, they're only to blame if they completely fail to telegraph difficulty.

The way your OP described the scenario was the non-combat equivalent of a CaS game, an encounter far above challenge, and the DM not nothing to have the player roll their saving throw. Replace the entire scenario with a beholder floating in out of nowhere and disintegrating the carried magic item, no saving throw, then floating off again. It's the same problem.

In your specific situation as the DM, the player has no room to blame you personally as a DM if it was either:
A) A CaS game and a beholder was within the DMG guidelines. It's just bad luck on their part.
B) A CaW game and the beholder's difficulty was appropriately telegraphed. It's entires on their own head I that case. They took a risk and it didn't pan out.

On the other hand, they do have room to blame you as a DM if it was communicated before the game that their characters couldn't die by sheer bad luck on the dice, only due to their own decision making. But if they just assumed that, then that's their problem.

And of course, many players assume a CaW game is a CaS game even when it's been clearly communicated before hand. They still think they can win every fight. It usually takes a bunch of deaths to straighten out their thinking.

1) Think that you have earned this weapon
2) Believe this weapon is a gift from the DM
This is somewhere I depart from gygaxian randomness. I like treasures to be appropriately guarded relative to their power. Roughly at least. Otherwise it's a gift from the DM. This is a personal opinion not some kind of fact. :smallwink:

I comes about honestly. I ran two different campaigns as a 13-15 year old, that fell apart as Monty Haul campaigns in less than a few months, largely based on early-on random magic time table rewards being too powerful.

A friend of mine has been running down this same path recently, and takes it a bit further, believing that the concept of failure needs to be removed from D&D. There should never be a failed attack, a failed skill check, a failed combat, a failed mission. The story is about the PCs as heroes, and they should succeed. Therefore, any failed roll should come with something else. Failed attacks should give an ally a bonus, failed skill checks should come with a bit of knowledge or some other benefit, etc... So this scenario pisses him off to no end. It shouldn't exist, as there's no way for the PC to be heroic. The PC loses, no matter what, and no DM should ever place something like this in a game. Your friends opinion sounds like a bunch of "fail-forward" twaddle to me. He's bought in to internet group-think which strips the game of any challenge. If you can't fail, you have no chance to be heroic. (In case you can't tell, I really don't like that philosophy. :smallwink: )

But he's right about one thing. The scenario shouldn't have existed ... because it involved absolutely no player agency the way it was originally communicated. How do the players know a red dragon won't swoop down out of nowhere, breath fire, and kill them all? Or rocks fall, they all die? It's tthe same concept, just a matter of scale.

GorogIrongut

2017-11-06, 10:52 AM

For context, when I DM I run a sandbox world where my players may encounter things more horrible than can be imagined... at level 1... if they choose to do so. The world is there for them to be interact with and THEY are responsible for what they encounter.

Fast forward to my answer. I blame the pc. And I'll use an example to explain why.

My players were in an underground complex and rolled incredibly well. They found the nigh on unfindable secret passages that enabled them to find long lost relics of a past civilization. They managed, through ridiculous and suicidal luck to survive an unbeatable foe (most of the party was inside a couple bags of holding while the druid got jacked and was only able to make it out when he was revived. Everyone in the bags of holding died except for the ranger who had the magic ring that meant she didn't have to breathe. The sneaky player who didn't go with the others waited for the unbeatable foe to disappear and then grabbed the bags and revived the other players.)

So we've got what is essentially a level 7 party, in possession of a ridonculous magical weapon. Legendary in every way.

=Storm’s Herald
Weapon (warhammer), legendary (requires attunement)
You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with Storm’s Herald. In addition, while you carry the warhammer, you can strike the ground with it to cast the thunderwave spell (save DC 15). You can’t use this property again until you finish a long rest. Legacy Weapon.
The wielder unlocks additional powers if they are at least a certain level: • Level 8: You can point Storm’s Herald forward to cast the lightning bolt spell. You can’t use this property again until you finish a long rest. • Level 12: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this weapon. • Level 16: You can cast call lightning as an 8th level spell. You can’t use this property again until you finish a long rest. • Level 20: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this weapon. Additionally, you can raise Storm’s Herald up to the sky to cast the meteor swarm spell. You can’t use this property again until you finish a long rest.

I remind them that this is a sandbox world and that anything can happen. They discuss what to do with this new shiny and choose a pretty sensible course. They stick in a bag of holding and only use it when no one will ever know/be able to find out that they have it so it can't be taken away from them.

Through the use of an overpowered magic item, they were able to overcome some really quite powerful foes. But it never became ubiquitous. It was realistic. Was their foe really worth the risk of pulling out the Big Guns...? A lot of times, they'd be facing a really powerful foe, but wouldn't pull it out for fear of it's theft. It became a judgment call and the game was the better for it.

If your theoretical player is stupid enough to go waving a legendary weapon around under the nose of the rest of the world when s/he's unable to protect/keep it, then s/he deserves to have it taken away from him/her. If s/he was the Sergeant as a pc character instead of their current character, you know they wouldn't hesitate to trump up some charge against the pc's and then confiscate their new shiny.

Easy_Lee

2017-11-06, 11:23 AM

It's impossible to assign blame without knowing the details. Did the DM take the sword away as a plot hook, or just because he didn't want the player to have it? Did the players have a choice? Could the players have outrun the guard, and did they have a chance to spot them coming? Did the players have reason to believe something like this might happen? Did the DM act like a **** when he did it?

In this situation, one of my characters would react exactly how you would expect: murder the guy who took the sword, then take it back and keep it hidden / disguised from then onward. I'd involve the whole group and make a quest of it. If the DM came up with some reason to not allow that, then I would quit. You don't give your players an item, take it away, and not give them a chance to get it back.

Unoriginal

2017-11-06, 11:26 AM

That being said, it's true that failure shouldn't stop the game, unless the characters are dead.

Like, if you fail something, you fail something, but it shouldn't result in the PCs going "whelp, there is nothing else we can do, time to go home".

Failure is failure, but it should open different possibilities to continue. Often less favorable than if you had succeeded, of course.

Deleted

2017-11-06, 11:38 AM

Vaz

2017-11-06, 12:30 PM

Yeah, these thought experiments are stupid because in real life a Good character would always have the option to divert a trolley on top of the Evil sergeant to avert the postulated outcome!
Nah, just needs to American History X a foetus.

Pex

2017-11-06, 12:35 PM

Tanarii

2017-11-06, 12:56 PM

It's the DM's fault.

No magic item exists in the game without the DM's permission. It was the DM who gave the PC the magic item. It was the DM who created by fiat an NPC of CR "DM Wins" to take the item away.
You just agreed with my first post in this thread.

Just saying. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Honest Tiefling

2017-11-06, 12:59 PM

Honest Tiefling

2017-11-06, 01:03 PM

That's a crap thing to do to a player. If you mess up, own up - 'sorry, it's getting hard to balance the game for the rest of the party, I need to fix this somehow'. That treats the player with respect. Having an NPC do that jackass move is just a DM that doesn't have the guts to fix their mistake in a productive way.

Ah, but jerkwads just make the victory that much sweeter when you're dancing on their charred bones with their prized possessions in your grasp and making their servants into skull puppets. 'Hey, that noble really deserved that flaming death!' Yes, yes, he did Mister Skully.

Seriously, I do wonder where the cut off for theft is. I think the players should have the ability to fend off attempts and it should be kept to a minimum in non-intrigue campaigns, but where would most people draw the line?

Easy_Lee

2017-11-06, 01:13 PM

I'm not actually sure how going on a noble killing campaign to get my stuff back (and assuming the DM did it as a plot point) is blaming the DM. Maybe the DM was really attached to his nobility, but maybe they shouldn't be if the nobility is going to get in the way of saving things or getting loot. As nobility is often wont to do.

As a general rule, the DM should be able to adapt to the players' actions. After all, it's the players' job to adapt to the DM's campaign. I don't think it's blaming the DM if the players choose to kill NPCs who have it coming. But I do think it's valid to be upset if the DM won't allow you to do so.

In short, I suspect we agree.

mgshamster

2017-11-06, 01:55 PM

Seriously, I do wonder where the cut off for theft is. I think the players should have the ability to fend off attempts and it should be kept to a minimum in non-intrigue campaigns, but where would most people draw the line?

Seems to be a wide range. Quite a few people are ok with it, so long as they're not being cheated (all the rules are followed). Some people hate it no matter what, and believe that what's given should never be taken away. Some people don't care either way in the slightest, and are perfectly fine with taking away equipment or even the life of the PC.

I think there's a similar question surrounding the scenario: "You wake up in prison, all your gear is missing." How did you get here? Let's look at two scenarios:

1) You were engaged in a teleportation spell and something went wrong. You woke up in prison.
2) You lost a fight and thought it was a TPK, but instead everyone was saved from dying and you woke up in prison.

I've been in both scenarios. In fact, this is such a common trope that I've had PCs wake up in prison many times. And not every time did I get all my equipment back. There's been plenty of times when I lost everything and had to start over. Even my spellbooks.

It's the same concept: you lose equipment. You may not get it back.

Some will say this is something no DM should ever do. Yet it's such a common trope, that even Out of the Abyss opens with it.

Tanarii

2017-11-06, 02:19 PM

It's the same concept: you lose equipment. You may not get it back.

Some will say this is something no DM should ever do. Yet it's such a common trope, that even Out of the Abyss opens with it.It's all about execution.

Is this a start situation for a campaign, or did the PCs buy-in to the secenario? Were the PCs given some agency at some point, he ability to make a meaningful decision that led to this result?

If no to both, stop, do not pass go, and try again.

If so, then it's not an issue.

Your OP heavily implied the answer to both questions was no.

Your two "go to prison scenarios" the teleport scenario it's hard to know if both are no. The "thought it was a TPK" to me implies likely yes to the agency question. Although that's not a guarantee.

GreyBlack

2017-11-06, 02:28 PM

Deleted

2017-11-06, 02:41 PM

So, I got to thinking about it and I have to say that as a DM... The only way I'm taking a core part away from any character is if they asked for it.

Go to talk with the keader of a theive's guild, make her mad, all the while waving around shiny toys? Ok, you asked for this plot line.

Accept the quest to take on the beholder and it uses its anti-magic eye beam? Yeah, you did this to yourself.

Now, if the party wants a brutal campaign (well, we will probably be playing tier 3 3.e or 4e) then I'll be brutal... But again, they asked for it.

No need to be a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, the players will typically open up many avenues to give you options in order to screw with them in different ways.

Tanarii

2017-11-06, 10:29 PM

I had some more thoughts.

This thought experiment seems to boil down to: what does it take to make it feel like the DM is out to get you?

There's really only one thing that does that for me: make me feel like I can't have any meaningful input, either before a situation or during the situation. That's why the situation rubbed me wrong.

There's no particular reason I should expect that to be the case. I mean, in real life crap happens to us that we had no 'agency' over all the time. It's not even necessarily anyone's fault. But in game, the only way crap happens is the DM decided crap happens, or there's a random table that includes crap happens on it, which is the DM deciding crap *might* happen. So it's easy to blame the DM when crap hits the fan and you cannot make any meaningful decisions before or during, as opposed to curse (or shrug) and deal with the situation after the fact & moving forward. Which is what I'd call a healthy reaction to crap happening IRL.

mgshamster

2017-11-06, 11:51 PM

I had some more thoughts.

This thought experiment seems to boil down to: what does it take to make it feel like the DM is out to get you?

That's an interesting perspective. Let's roll with it. Well, slightly modified. What does it take for you get annoyed with the dm?

There's really only one thing that does that for me: make me feel like I can't have any meaningful input, either before a situation or during the situation. That's why the situation rubbed me wrong.

I'm thinking back on my history of gaming, and the only thing that really pops out as a scenario where I got mad at the DM was when I lost the agency to *solve* a problem because the badass NPC (aka DMs pet NPC which was practically a DM-PC) kept saving the day for us. Every question had a deus ex machina.

As the campaign progressed, I started to notice how we couldn't even accomplish anything on our own. Deus ex machina started happening everywhere. The first time I noticed it was when we were supposed to steal a dragon's egg out from under a dragon. We knew we couldn't kill the dragon. Outside of game, I spent hours trying to come up with various plans to accomplish it, and I probably went back and forth with the other players over email hundreds of times over several weeks. When it came time to actually go in and try it, the DM's personal favorite powerful NPC showed up with the egg for us. Just teleports in and says, "Hey, I got the dragon egg for you!" Oh, and that NPC also had a different artifact that we were supposed to get, and we were still trying to figure out how to get it. That artifact was in the hands of a reclusive nation of elves that hated non-elves (and the GM dictated that elf was not a playable race). All of us we're looking forward to the challenge of negotiating with hostile elves to get a cultural artifact from them. It was going to be a challenge! But nope. DM-PC shows up with it. And two major problems solved for us out of the blue by an NPC that none of the PCs or Players liked. It took us months to get to that point in game, only to have the challenge ripped out from underneath us.

One of the other characters had a holy symbol granted to him by his god (literally, his god showed up and gave it to him). At one point he lost it, and about a year later in real life, we had the opportunity to do a side quest to retrieve it. All of us were really excited to take a break from the main campaign and do a mini quest to get our cleric's prized holy symbol back. The next gaming session, a group of representatives from a nation we were trying to ally with showed up, and they had the holy symbol with them and used it as one of their bargaining chips. There went that adventure.

My character had an army of gnomes. We had to go overseas for a while, and I ordered the army to stay at home and await for me to come back. They refused. They decided to build their own ship and sail after me (we took dragons to fly there), which would take about 6 months. Because I knew this, I left orders at every city we stopped at to tell the gnomes (if they were seen) where I would be headed, so they could eventually find me. By the time that entire story arc was over, I never heard from my gnomes. I stated that I would not head back to our homeland without being able to find my gnome army and bring them home too. This was the point where the powerful NPC who happened to have both the dragon egg and the artifact met up with us. She was going to just teleport us home, and I refused. I got outvoted by the party, and we teleported. Lo and behold, there's my gnome army! What do you know! A huge storm had sunk their ship, and the survivors floated back to shore and were taken into slavery. I thought, "what a great opportunity to free my gnomes from slavery! This will be a great adventure arc!" We start planning how to get my gnomes free, but that game session night, we met up the the leader of the culture that enslaved my gnomes, and the leader said, "Your gnomes are free. I will send out orders to return them to you." And another problem "solved."

So we had some challenges and some crap happen irrespective of player input and that was all fine. The issue arose when the ability to actually solve the problem was taken away. Problems kept getting solved by NPCs before we even had the chance to try and solve it for ourselves.

as opposed to curse (or shrug) and deal with the situation after the fact & moving forward. Which is what I'd call a healthy reaction to crap happening IRL.

Indeed! I *try* to keep that same perspective for my PCs, too. :)

Tanarii

2017-11-07, 12:18 AM

Getting annoyed with a DM is easy. That can happen for something silly, like when she rolls a particularly critical save or crit for her monster. :smallyuk:

But yeah, your story, or more accurately stories :smalltongue:, shows the flip side of loss of meaningful decisions. When things are constantly automagically working out in your favor can be as annoying as when something negative just happens with no possible player input.

Remember, I'm vehemently anti-DM-fudging too. For pretty much the same reasons. :smallamused:

Honest Tiefling

2017-11-07, 12:23 AM

That's an interesting perspective. Let's roll with it. Well, slightly modified. What does it take for you get annoyed with the dm?

The simplest answer is always going to be 'never listening to the players'. If they continuously ask for NPCs to stop solving the game and don't, then that's an issue. There's going to be some cases where stealing from the players is expected, warranted or advantageous. Even getting bailed out by an NPC can be beneficial for the game if it's due to character interaction or players not wanting characters to die.

Or being a jerk about the pizza. That also works.

mephnick

2017-11-07, 07:51 AM

I think an unwinnable situation is fine if it stems from a prior decision made by the players. If the guard captain has some reason to pick on the players, like messing with guards previously or hurting an ally of his, then yeah, have him come up to them with a posse and steal their ****. Then it becomes a justified consequence that leads to an adventure hook. If it's just some random group passing by, and a random weapon, I'd at least need a reason for the guard captain to have some knowledge of magic weapons to justify his interest in it, but I think my players would trust me enough to realize they always had a chance to get it back if they really wanted to.

Of course, I don't start handing out magic weapons until characters are well into the levels where they could do something about it. Not many guard captains are stomping all over a level 8 party.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-07, 01:04 PM

DM.
How did the sergeant take the sword without any contest?
Why bother having players if the DM is going to strong arm everything? These questions need good answers.
He's been reading or playing too much of the new age "Fail Forward" "Always say 'Yes and..'" crap that people have been spouting for almost a decade now. Then again, there's the "Yes, but" and the "No, and" school of thought. Mixing game systems sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't.

It's the DM's fault.
No magic item exists in the game without the DM's permission. It was the DM who gave the PC the magic item. It was the DM who created by fiat an NPC of CR "DM Wins" to take the item away. This. Whether or not it all ended up being a good story thing cannot ignore this simple observation.

Jexis

2017-11-08, 05:11 AM

Blame the DM.
First, if you're the only one with an amazing weapon, that's poor balancing on the DM's part. Second, if everyone has cool weapons and only you get sacked, that's poor balancing on the DM's part (assuming he does nothing to rectify said situation).
If this is all spoken to you with you getting no chance for actions, that's bad RP on the DM's part. You should be allowed a Sleight of Hand to hide it or a Persuasion/intimidate to stop them or the chance to run away all together.
I imagine it has to do with the simplicity of the supposed situation but it sounds too quick and unflavorful. A DM should at least make a story of it. Not, "he walked up and took it. The End".

Mitth'raw'nuruo

2017-11-15, 11:46 PM

I'd blame the corrupt class system which keeps the poor-but-honest PCs down.

The PCs would immediately begin a socialist revolution which overthrows the current ruling class, institutes equality and justice for all, and rotating communal access to over-powered swords.

Yes! Let the flames of chaos burn in your heart! Overthrow the corrupt authority! Viva the revolution! Burn it all!

MAYBE? Yeah, that guy is deader then MC hammer pants.

But seriously, does blame matter? The guilty burn as well as the not-guilty. If was presented with this scenario, I would assume that a bit of king slaying was on the table. I'd at least try to keep the Marxist references to a minimum, because I'm nice like that.

I'm going to have to keep this in mind. I am personally very Classically liberal. Locke, Montesquieu, Mill, Jefferson, Paine. I firmly believe the world was never safer or better (within the limits of technology of the time) then under the Pax Britannia. Playing A Communist PC would be very interesting, and throw my group for a loop.

As to maybe, we have one guy who frequently ends up being a member of the nobility, so sometimes we just ensure that people are properly punished. Which is often done by hanging them from the neck, until dead.