Kitsune Race(+Racial Feats)

[demonslayerelf]

Hello all! It's me again, back from the dead!
Been a while since I made something, but I felt like doing it. Hope y'all enjoy it.

Here it is!

Kitsune (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWNAzvFRb)

So, quick design note; I love racial feats. I made too many of them, but I think it's fine.

[Ferrin33]

The link doesn't seem to work, is that just me?

[demonslayerelf]

Yep, sorry, that was the print button version, not the share version. I fixed it though.

[Ferrin33]

Thank you, can read it now!

In their physical description it says they have longer and pointier ears than a human, but not as pointy and long as an elf. But it also says that they have fox ears. Do they have two pairs of ears?

Why are there mechanics in their physical description, namely the "Turned invisible- with simple concentration(As if concentrating on a spell), and a bonus action."?

"Society" says very little about how the kitsune stand in the world. Are they loners, couples, families, small towns of them, living in a big city? How do they meet other Kitsune etc.

About their statistics;

I suggest making each Kitsune feat equivalent in power to a normal feat, and remove their level requirements. Remove one ability of the sub-races each, let them only give a +1 to one ability score, remove the "Forest heritage" ability, and give one Spiritual Heritage feat at 1st level similar to a variant human. There's simply to much clutter and power, all things considered. If an ability can be used X times like "Luck of the Black-tailed fox", I suggest basing that on an ability score rather than your proficiency bonus, charisma in this case.

Some problem abilities from a balance perspective;
Luck of the Black-tailed Fox: Simply to powerful, having it be once per short or long rest would be much more feasible already, but alongside the other abilities I would suggest dropping it entirely and working this type of effect into a feat which you could choose.
Friendly Words: You can cast a better version of a 1st level spell once per short rest, that's really powerful, and you should probably let it be once per long rest, and not be available until 3rd level like the 1st level tiefling spells.
Storyteller: Effectively gaining expertise on three abilities is way to much, you should probably limit this to just performance.
A Truth For a Lie: This ability does not make sense, as it's what Deception does already, except now you have no downside if someone sees through your deception with insight? This is way to powerful, you should just give proficiency in Deception instead.
A Lucky Strike: This ability would be to strong if it was once per long rest. A guaranteed hit is to strong already, let alone a guaranteed critical. Consider increasing the damage dealt by critical hits instead, much like the half-orc class feature.
Form of Fox's Wrath: This is a really powerful ability, I suggest looking at the Aasimar race from Volo's Guide to Monsters for ideas on how to balance this type of effect.

Not going to comment on each individual feat, but you should consider just looking at feats that do similar things from the Player's Handbook, like Magic Initiate and Fox Fire, and balance things based on that.

[demonslayerelf]

-Snip-

Thanks for the response, and I'm just going to go beat by beat on this, so I hope you don't get lost on it.

They do have two sets of ears, yes. One on the tops of their heads, one where ears should be, sorry I didn't make it more clear.


I couldn't find a good way to put that in, since it's not an ability. Like, what am I supposed to do with that one? "You can turn your tails and ears invisible" isn't really an ability... Is it? I don't really consider it to be one.


A lot of that is more in Relations, but I'll certainly add stuff in, thanks for pointing it out.


The only problem with that, is that... Well, there are two things.
Firstly, there's no great "Here's how powerful a feat is" when it comes to unique abilities. The best example is GWM and Sharpshooter, in how it basically equates a bonus action hit sometimes to completely ignoring all but full cover.
Secondly, Kitsune are associated with massive amounts of power, causing natural disasters, more or less immortality, etc. If people could just take feats and have that reputation, you'd think Variant Humans were OPAF. Hence, you have to take maybe 4 feats before getting some of the powerful stuff; A hefty tradeoff for such gold as 2 3rd level spells.

I also removed a design note I had on there, in which I commented that I loved the Racial Feat UA from a while back, but felt they could do more, particularly with Tieflings; They have an entire infernal history, they can do more with that than thorny skin and some resistances.


On the topic of Spiritual Heritage, I considered that, but then in my mind it's like "Hold on, they get more powerful as they get older, why are they getting everything from birth?" It also seemed rather unoriginal, to just steal from another race, and I figured I had done that enough. That's also the reason I used the proficiency modifier; It's so they get more powerful over time, instead of seeing something get relatively weaker.

You'll also notice that the base race only has a +1, which I'm actually considering getting rid of already... In fact I will. But the subraces each have +2(Or 1 and 1), because there's a wide birth between them. A black fox has a different meaning than a red one.


There's already a feat(Lucky) which is more powerful anyway. Three rerolls of anything on your part, or usable on attacks against you, even if the enemy has advantage/disadvantage, and would definitely hit you already. This is specifically on attacks, and could give disadvantage or cancel an advantage. It's MAYBE a lucky save, but at high levels bonuses to hit are high enough that it won't help much anyways.


I'm not sure how it's better in any way, and you have to spend 15 minutes talking to them beforehand. If it were just spells I would agree, but it's situational and out of combat entirely, unless you can somehow convince a dragon not to eat you for 15 minutes.


A very situational expertise. I'd like to see you spin a 15 minute or so story out of "Why should I give you this potion at a discount" without them walking away or getting frustrated and telling you to stop.(Or just straight up boring them to death- Any of which would more or less disqualify you from even making a roll, never mind gaining expertise.)

The way I see it, it's gotta be something subtle, or someone specifically asks you the story. It's not a "Oh, I want a discount, so I'll pull try to tell the clerk a story at the register," it's more of an "Alright, the king just asked about my family; Time to push my own agendas."


It's not a guaranteed hit, though. It's a crit, only if you hit with advantage. Once per long rest does sound better, though.


I did. Once each turn, they can pump out additional damage equal to their level, in addition to gaining a 30 fly speed, or frightening people, or dealing half their level automatically to everything around them.
This form is gaining a relatively small amount of temporary hit points(Upto 40 for the whole minute), a small speed boost(10 feet, which is only double a wood elf's bonus, which they receive permanently), and at worst, a +1 longsword, and at best, a +3 longsword(Which is probably after you receive a better magic weapon; Level 17 is a good point for powerful things).


That misses the point of Kitsune gaining more power as they age. Any mook could take Magic Initiate five times and get 15 spells that do basically nothing at 19th level.


So, thank you for the feedback, but I will respectfully disagree with a number of your recommendations.

[demonslayerelf]

Oh, and I missed your comment on A Truth For a Lie.
Basically, it's passing hidden messages. Telling a lie is just telling a lie. Deception vs. Insight, see who rolls better.

But let's say you're leading a rebel group against the usurper of a kingdom, and talking to a group after some fiasco.
You could just speak in established code, but sometimes that doesn't work, and you have to use pretty off-the-wall metaphor and whatnot. It's still deception, but someone, instead of just seeing it's a lie, can now see that you aren't talking about tearing down an old wall from either side, you're actually talking about a pincer attack on an evil force.

[JNAProductions]

Shapechange feels too good. +10' speed, and you lose basically nothing. Include a clause preventing, say, spellcasting and whatnot, and that ceases to be an issue.

Two free feats is also way too good. They're spread out, but remember, each feat is worth +2 to an ability.

Fade Into Shadows is too good. Dim Light is darkness with Darkvision, so that's almost permanent advantage on Stealth checks. (About the only time you DON'T have advantage is if you're invisible and sneaking around.)

Brown Fox is fine.

Grey Fox feels a touch too good. I would change A Lucky Strike to let you attack with advantage, once per short rest. Crits are REALLY POWERFUL combined with Sneak Attack or Smite.

White Fox feels okay.

[demonslayerelf]

Shapechange feels too good. +10' speed, and you lose basically nothing. Include a clause preventing, say, spellcasting and whatnot, and that ceases to be an issue.

You lose the ability to wear armor or use weapons, you can't communicate unless people learn a secret language, and you're vulnerable to Moonbeam. Not arguing, as the intention was no spellcasting, just pointing that out.

Out of curiosity, do you think it would be unbalancing to allow their racial spellcasting? It comes through feats, but it's still racial.


Two free feats is also way too good. They're spread out, but remember, each feat is worth +2 to an ability.
You can't use these as ASI's(And games with no feats only get a +1 to a thing), and it has to be one on the following page... Ya still think it's too much? If yes, what would you recommend, because the idea is that they get more powerful as they get older. Maybe a "Kitsune Feats Lite" option?


Fade Into Shadows is too good. Dim Light is darkness with Darkvision, so that's almost permanent advantage on Stealth checks. (About the only time you DON'T have advantage is if you're invisible and sneaking around.)
Yeah, I thought that one was a bit much. Ya think making it only pitch darkness would work, or are you thinking a total tone-down is necessary?


Grey Fox feels a touch too good. I would change A Lucky Strike to let you attack with advantage, once per short rest. Crits are REALLY POWERFUL combined with Sneak Attack or Smite.
I considered that, but that's kinda blande. You also have to already have advantage and hit... And as circumstantial as it is, Luck can be used to negate it. I want to try to keep it more or less how it is... Or rather, more or less interesting, rather than the universal "I don't know what we should put here, let's just give it advantage."

[JNAProductions]

Make what you can't do more clear in Shapechange. Racial spellcasting is probably fine, though.

I didn't really look at the feats-but if they're as good as a feat should be, then yes, it's far too much.

I think a total tone-down is needed.

How many monsters have Luck? Really, go look-hint: The answer is zero.

Perhaps make it like this:


If you attack with advantage or disadvantage and hit with both rolls, you may, once per short rest, choose to hit twice with the attack instead of once.

More powerful for Fighters ((2d6+5)*2 is better than 4d6+5) but much, MUCH weaker on the critters-Paladins and Rogues. Paladins CAN do more damage than even an ordinary crit... But it costs an extra slot. And Rogues just plain only get one Sneak Attack per turn, so no go there.

[Arte]

This race is bit much, it needs to have about ¼ of its features removed, its wording brought in line with the original material and it needs to be condensed. It wants to be a lot and at the same time seems to try to restrict itself.

Generally, what you need to work on is adding resource usage to features, many things here do not state if they use reactions, actions or bonus actions. This leads me to believe they are all free actions and if that is the case then this is more powerful than any race in the PHB by far.

They gain 1 extra ability score, they move 10-feet faster and 20-feet faster climbing.
They are able to polymorph tank without concentration from 1st level.
They have a 1d4 dice on unarmed strikes
They have 2~3 extra features than most others and 1~2 extra feature than elves.
They gain 2 extra feats and/or 2 more ability scores than anyone else

It's a good first attempt but it needs some work here is a quick fix for your shape change that would bring it in line with the MM and closer to balanced with PHB races:

The kitsune can use an action to polymorph into a beast form that resembles a small sized fox with potentially several tails, (speed 40ft.) that speaks only *celestial* or back into its true form. Its statistics are the same in each form, except for the size, language and speed changes noted. It can select any equipment it is wearing or carrying to transforms with them. It reverts to its true form if it dies. While in fox form, the kitsune may maintain concentration to hide illusorily any number of its tails.

Keep in mind this is still stronger than even the Monsters that have Shapechange but this is as close to balanced and still true to what you wrote as I could get it.

[JNAProductions]

I don't think they can polymorph tank. Their statistics stay the same, which would include max and current HP.

[demonslayerelf]

Thanks for responding to that bit, JNA, but I'm also just going to whip through those real quick.

They actually receive one fewer ability score increase than nearly any other race.

Their health remains the same, just like a vampire or lycanthrope. All statistics, except size and speed, remain the same. They also lose weapon access, so it's almost a ribbon effect. They also are considered shapechangers, so they're vulnerable to things like Moonbeam. I didn't realize that at the time, but it's actually a bit more of a weakness.

Maybe I'm alone here, but unarmed strikes mean basically nothing. 1d4 is the same as a dagger, only it's debatably worse, since you can't throw your claws.

Also true, but again, two of their abilities are pretty much nothing, so it's more like they have two features, then the feats, which...

Well, no. They get two feats, which I'm trying to find a good way about changing, but you can't trade those out for ASI's, and if it's a game without feats, it's only a +1 anyway. It's to show Kitsune get more powerful as they age, which I feel should be a thing with most races(Particularly elves and dwarfs. They live for hundreds of years, but unless they level up, they're as powerful at age 50 as they are at age 700.) Again, trying to find a better way to handle it, but at the same time, I think it's more an issue I have with the normal races, not really a problem with this one.

[Arte]

I don't think they can polymorph tank. Their statistics stay the same, which would include max and current HP.

He did not specifically say that damage taken in fox form is damage taken in kitsune form so it is working on the rules of polymorph. He did state that you can concentrate on hiding the tails which lends to the assumption you can use this polymorph without concentration. There is no reason to assume being brought to 0 hit points in fox form as he wrote it would not revert you as the spell polymorph explains.

[JNAProductions]

He did not specifically say that damage taken in fox form is damage taken in kitsune form so it is working on the rules of polymorph. He did state that you can concentrate on hiding the tails which lends to the assumption you can use this polymorph without concentration. There is no reason to assume being brought to 0 hit points in fox form as he wrote it would not revert you as the spell polymorph explains.

There's not really a clear direction one way or the other.

So, we can make one of two assumptions:

1) You can shapechange into a fox, gaining your entire HP pool as a barrier against harm, totally at-will. (Completely game-breaking.)

2) You can shapechange into a fox, but your HP remains consistent. (Totally fine.)

I won't object to that being made more clear, but any DM who allows this is going to follow the second interpretation and not the first.

[Arte]

Thanks for responding to that bit, JNA, but I'm also just going to whip through those real quick.

They actually receive one fewer ability score increase than nearly any other race.

Their health remains the same, just like a vampire or lycanthrope. All statistics, except size and speed, remain the same. They also lose weapon access, so it's almost a ribbon effect. They also are considered shapechangers, so they're vulnerable to things like Moonbeam. I didn't realize that at the time, but it's actually a bit more of a weakness.

Maybe I'm alone here, but unarmed strikes mean basically nothing. 1d4 is the same as a dagger, only it's debatably worse, since you can't throw your claws.

Also true, but again, two of their abilities are pretty much nothing, so it's more like they have two features, then the feats, which...

Well, no. They get two feats, which I'm trying to find a good way about changing, but you can't trade those out for ASI's, and if it's a game without feats, it's only a +1 anyway. It's to show Kitsune get more powerful as they age, which I feel should be a thing with most races(Particularly elves and dwarfs. They live for hundreds of years, but unless they level up, they're as powerful at age 50 as they are at age 700.) Again, trying to find a better way to handle it, but at the same time, I think it's more an issue I have with the normal races, not really a problem with this one.


In reverse: If its about flavor then you can write those things out sure, you can take an existing mechanic and tie it in but all these features make this a prestige class more than a race.

Adding a dice to unarmed strikes mean you can critical with them. It is also a feat in and of itself. Everyone who isn't a Kitsune would have to dip a class level into monk, get enlargement somehow or grab a feat.

You seem to be relying on that moonbeam argument, that is only relevant if everyone was taking 3 levels in druid, a DM willing to do that might as well disallow this race.

You should read the PHB again, the only race that gets more than 3 attribute points is Human which gets 1 in everything. As a result the only trait they have is an extra language.

[demonslayerelf]

In your order;

A prestige class would have actual levels.

You can already critical with unarmed strikes, since they have an attack roll. It just goes from one to two damage. And it is a feat, but it's also exactly what the Tabaxi has, and it's still more or less useless. Pick up your starting gear for any class, it's immediately worse.

I'm not really relying on it, I'm just noting it. Also, it's not just moonbeam, it's anything that hits Shapechangers. I dunno how many effects exactly that is, but it's there. Attached to an ability which really can't do much on it's own, all I'm saying is that it's more of a weakness than a strength.

Well, three things to note, there.
Mountain Dwarf gets +2 Strength and +2 Con.
Half-elves get +2 Charisma, then +1 to two other things.
So, you might want to read that PHB some more.

Kitsune only receive +2 total, while most get three, making the above facts irrelevant.

[Arte]

In your order;

A prestige class would have actual levels.

You can already critical with unarmed strikes, since they have an attack roll. It just goes from one to two damage. And it is a feat, but it's also exactly what the Tabaxi has, and it's still more or less useless. Pick up your starting gear for any class, it's immediately worse.

I'm not really relying on it, I'm just noting it. Also, it's not just moonbeam, it's anything that hits Shapechangers. I dunno how many effects exactly that is, but it's there. Attached to an ability which really can't do much on it's own, all I'm saying is that it's more of a weakness than a strength.

Well, three things to note, there.
Mountain Dwarf gets +2 Strength and +2 Con.
Half-elves get +2 Charisma, then +1 to two other things.
So, you might want to read that PHB some more.

Kitsune only receive +2 total, while most get three, making the above facts irrelevant.

Kitsune feats are level locked and/or granted.

Read the rules on critical damage; in short you double your dice rolls. Unarmed strikes are not 1d1 its just 1.

And how many features do mountain Dwarves get beyond that?

It seems you're taking things personally though so I'll stop here, I also came up with a class completely from the ground up and two years later I'm still working on it so good luck man.

[demonslayerelf]

-Snip-

Sorry it took so long to respond, I took a break for the night, then came back and saw the polymorph/notpolymorph thing and whatnot... But I is here now.

So, I think I got the shapechange worked out now... hopefully.

On the topic of feats, I want to find a way to change that, but at the same time, by the time you're tenth level, is gaining 2 1st level spells and a cantrip(More powerful than Magic Initiate, only you don't get to choose them) really that helpful?

I changed it to having half/three quarters cover at dim light/darkness... I kinda like that, but I dunno.
I also gave them Low-light vision, rather than Darkvision, just because I don't like darkvision.

Halflings.

I like the new lucky strike, though... Automatically hit a second time once/rest if you have advantage if both would hit... Yeah, I really like that. Thank you.

[demonslayerelf]

For all the more-or-less meaningless criticism he gave(Mostly misconception about what this race or other races had), Arte did give me an idea. I'm actually just going to make this a Kitsune Race, then Kitsune Paragon-style class.

Of course, with that said, it'll probably lead to me wanting to make all the races a Paragon class... Oh, well, cross that bridge when I get to it. This'll undergo some mighty changes(Actually, probably not too many at this point), and a class will be a thing, so I'm gonna just repost it later, lock this thing up(I think I can do that, right?), and... Yeah. Ima stop typing now.