Is Retrieve really that strong?

[WhiteBread]

Me and some friends started a new campaign where everyone was allowed to create their own classes with self created class feature. I wanted to play a thief and used this power as a reference:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Retrieve

My ability was called Steal and basically replicated the effect with less weight. ( 10lb max, no augmentation ) I mainly wanted to use the ability to disable foes infight by taking their weapons.

Story: We were entrapped in a dungeon(without gear) and tried to escape. We were guarded by a dual axe wielding orc and managed to distract him while we opened our cell doors with the stolen keys which were stolen by our bard. The fight started while only half the party was out. I managed to steal his first axe before he was able to draw it and threw it to our first fighter. Infight I managed to steal his second axe where he failed his save and threw it to our secondary fighter. Well that led the others to believe my ability was overpowered because the orc wasn't a real challange anymore. For reference others had abilities like a oneshotting fireball (around 80 dmg) or perma invisibility.

Questions:
1. Is Retrieve with this limitations really that strong (10lb max, no augmentation)? Which Power Level would that be at?
2. Is normal Retrieve really that strong to justify power level 6th? In my eyes the power is quite limited or useless against enemies without gear and only slightly helpful against enemies with a lot of gear. I thought this ability would shine mainly in its utility later on.
3. Your thoughts how to balance it if it is truly imbalanced with the compared abilities?

[Fizban]

Enemies who need weapons to fight and have low will saves are weak against a power that steals weapons on a failed will save, go figure.

You have not supplied enough information to gauge much else about the game, but there are lots of 3rd party spells that let you force a foe to drop or hand you their weapon, usually around 2nd-4th level, but I can't remember if there are any 1st party versions. They're not really needed when you can do it with a standard Suggestion spell. Teleporting the weapon directly to you is much better (saves time and isn't a compulsion effect) while being more narrow, I wouldn't put it below 3rd.

The real question is: how would you feel if the spell was cast on you. You're playing a melee character with the customary low will save, you've got your weapon which is a considerable portion of your dps and possibly something you've invested character abilities in (for a Kensai or Ancestral Relic user say), and then the DM points a spell at you. It doesn't kill you, it doesn't turn you against your friends, it doesn't even knock you out- it cripples and humiliates you.

Not to say that the DM should be all that sour about it, since they allowed it in the first place. The rest of the players? 80 damage AoE a few times per day is reasonable around 12th, and permanent [greater] invsibility is kinda ridiculous, but they're whining about something you could functionally do back at 5th if you'd started with Suggestion. The view probably isn't helped by "classes with self created class features," which implies you gave yourself this ability at-will, which rather changes things.

-Oh, and it seems very likely the DM designed around or okay'd the magical weapon theft ability specifically because you'd have to break out of a place with no gear. The first part of the adventure is made reasonable by highlighting your ability. So that's the first thing they see and get sour about it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What level are you guys starting at? That power is pretty crappy for a 6th level power-- "Make a Will save or be screwed" spells come online as early as 2nd and 3rd level stuff. Like, I'd call it about on par with Entice Gift, a 2nd level spell that not only disarms the opponent, it makes waste a full turn handing the thing to you. Retrieve works from a greater distance and has more utility, but doesn't take their action.

[flappeercraft]

Use that on a Spell component pouch and goodbye caster. You just need to pump up the save DC. So yes if used correctly that would be incredibly powerful.

[Darrin]

Sounds similar to entice gift (Spell Compendium), which is a 2nd level Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard spell: fail a Will save, give the caster whatever you're holding.

[Bronk]

An example of a low level core spell that would do it would be 'command', with the drop instruction (cleric level 1).

Also, anything that stuns the opponent would cause them to drop everything.

[WhiteBread]

Whoa, thanks for replying so fast and so many.



Enemies who need weapons to fight and have low will saves are weak against a power that steals weapons on a failed will save, go figure.

You have not supplied enough information to gauge much else about the game, but there are lots of 3rd party spells that let you force a foe to drop or hand you their weapon, usually around 2nd-4th level, but I can't remember if there are any 1st party versions. They're not really needed when you can do it with a standard Suggestion spell. Teleporting the weapon directly to you is much better (saves time and isn't a compulsion effect) while being more narrow, I wouldn't put it below 3rd.

The real question is: how would you feel if the spell was cast on you. You're playing a melee character with the customary low will save, you've got your weapon which is a considerable portion of your dps and possibly something you've invested character abilities in (for a Kensai or Ancestral Relic user say), and then the DM points a spell at you. It doesn't kill you, it doesn't turn you against your friends, it doesn't even knock you out- it cripples and humiliates you.

Not to say that the DM should be all that sour about it, since they allowed it in the first place. The rest of the players? 80 damage AoE a few times per day is reasonable around 12th, and permanent [greater] invsibility is kinda ridiculous, but they're whining about something you could functionally do back at 5th if you'd started with Suggestion. The view probably isn't helped by "classes with self created class features," which implies you gave yourself this ability at-will, which rather changes things.

-Oh, and it seems very likely the DM designed around or okay'd the magical weapon theft ability specifically because you'd have to break out of a place with no gear. The first part of the adventure is made reasonable by highlighting your ability. So that's the first thing they see and get sour about it.

Gotta agree as a melee character I might be sour but that game gives everyone unarmed strike like a monk has. But still loosing a strong item must be painful.
The game starts at lvl 1 but the leveling system works a lot slower. Enemies have around 40 hp extra or more. Thats also why we got strong abilities.
And yes I think that the circumstances gave me too much spotlight. If the first fight had been against a group of wolfs it might have felt differently.



What level are you guys starting at? That power is pretty crappy for a 6th level power-- "Make a Will save or be screwed" spells come online as early as 2nd and 3rd level stuff. Like, I'd call it about on par with Entice Gift, a 2nd level spell that not only disarms the opponent, it makes waste a full turn handing the thing to you. Retrieve works from a greater distance and has more utility, but doesn't take their action.

Realllly powerful level 1? It however feels more like lvl 6 with your first level in a prc. Quite a lot of homebrew around. The game feels about the same but battles take a bit longer.


Use that on a Spell component pouch and goodbye caster. You just need to pump up the save DC. So yes if used correctly that would be incredibly powerful.

Yeah but every wizard has 10 spell pouches and 50 spell books. And a quite high will save. My ability probably will fail about 70% against them.


Sounds similar to entice gift (Spell Compendium), which is a 2nd level Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard spell: fail a Will save, give the caster whatever you're holding.

Quite interesting reference. So you would say the weaker version of Retrieve would be equivalent of a 2nd level power?


An example of a low level core spell that would do it would be 'command', with the drop instruction (cleric level 1).

Also, anything that stuns the opponent would cause them to drop everything.

Yeah after the others complained i thought about just going the disarm+ mage hand route which would do around the same. Dunno I wanted a little bit of feedback if Retrieve truly is the 6th level monster it seems to be.