PF how to end a grind fest believably

[Calthropstu]

My pcs are quite frustrated. They battled a pair of spirit nagas to a complete stalemate. The nagas, using hit and run surprise tactics in an area with lots of 60 foot deep water and multiple exits, managed to charm half the party. They could not get past them.
The whole session was essentially a dismal failure for the PCs. They were unable to retrieve their lost sword which now rests with the boss of the dungeon, and their progress has come to a screeching halt.
They have decided that they need reinforcements, and are going to teleport to a distant down. Two characters have leadership, and a third could retrain to take it.
My players have openly stated this has become a chore. They prefer rp heavy rather than combat heavy, and the adventure we are playing has quite a bit of rp potential... in the next book.

The problem is, the things this ap is throwing at the pcs is incredibly dangerous. These spirit nagas, for example, have a nasty assortment of anti melee protection spell buffs available (mage armor, shield, blur, mirror image) and an at will charm gaze set to dc 20.
Sitting on an ac of 31 with multiple images and a blur effect lets them cast spells with impunity... the party magus needed a nat 20 to hit.
With dispel and fireball also in play with cure spells as well it became a nasty nasty encounter. They managed to pin one naga between them and a wall of force but still couldn't bring it down. They finally managed to get a strategic withdrawal with no deaths on either side.
I'd like some suggestions as to what the party can do.
Here's what the situation looks like:

Their enemies CANNOT leave. The party, in theory, has unlimited time.

The enemy has been in this fortress for 60 years, walled off in a constant war. No chance of starving the enemy.
The allies (specifically Kami) the party wishes to gain cannot enter with them, nor can they leave the area so long as a single oni lives in the fortress.

They know their next enemy is insanely dangerous... an ogre mage riding on an advanced gorgon. The only reason the spirit nagas were there was because the pcs had become completely predictable and so the nagas came out to meet them at a very strategic location. I will send the nagas back to their original location if the pc's don't come for a few days. (The pcs had attacked every day for over a week)

The enemy has lost three levels of their 5 level fortress. This 4th level is very well guarded by oni forces backed by disarm specialist hobgoblin monks.

The final level houses a powerful oni and her daughters, the 2 spirit nagas.

This is a serious mess, and if I don't fix how this plays I will lose my players.

[zlefin]

Have you talked ot the players about more extreme solutions and what they want to do?
sometimes things like just simply skipping ahead, or saying some other adventurers dealt with the current problem, can be done. it's extreme, but if the group is really unhappy it can be for the best.

I don't know the adventure path well enough to say what plot-based excuses could be used to jump ahead; and I doubt the party would be all that interested in alternate tactics (even if we could find something that'd work).

[Fizban]

What other resources are available to the party besides unlimited time? As in towns of what size with what amount of NPCs.

They got hosed by illusions, so it sounds like they need a shot of True Seeing, problem solved?

Lost two party members to charm, that's annoying, but charm is a sight worse than dominate- you can say they fluffed their cha rolls to order those PCs to fight the rest (they only have +3 cha anyway), boom party is united again. Or move up a Magic Circle effect- I'm not seeing Dispel Magic on the Spirit Naga default list: they have a specific list of spells that the party should know by know and be able to counter with a specific set of buffs, which the nagas cannot dispel. If they can't cast the spells themselves, that's what towns with NPCs and scrolls/potions are for. If they try to hide in the water until True Seeing and the other buffs wear off, you just use more buffs.

True Seeing, Magic Circle, Resist Energy (fire), Delay or Neutralize poison, Water Breathing, and Freedom of Movement, all across as much of the party as possible/necessary. that should cover everything but the base bite damage. Throw down a Wall of Stone or two to cut off retreat.

Regarding extreme measures, have they considered simply collapsing the fortress, or is that even an option? Very few living things can survive being buried under rubble and suffocated to death (which would work as well on water breathers as air). If the enemy is hiding in the fortress and won't come out, you can just hire a bunch of peasants with sledgehammers, even if you don't want to spam Stone Shape or find a scroll of Earthquake. I'm guessing the adventure either says the fortress is indestructible or that you need the fortress yourself though.

As for the next enemy: I'm sure Pathfinder has a spell for making you immune to the gorgon's petrification gas.

[Akal Saris]

Just my view, but it seems to me that your players already came up with the perfect solution: Find NPC allies who share the same goal to eliminate the ogre mage. Perhaps these NPCs are mercenaries who will do it for a share of the treasure in the fortress, or perhaps they follow a local lord who wishes to possess the fortress. Your kami allies could also suggest other 'friends of the kami' who might be willing to help for a favor or two. Perhaps some other "evil" creatures have a grudge to settle against the fortress and will be willing to help, even if they might betray the party once the fight is over. The point is, your players are creatively coming up with a possible solution to the problem, so your best bet is to enable their solution in a way that everyone has fun.

What you can do is roll up a few NPC allies beforehand (secretly), including their motivations and descriptions, and some very basic combat tactics. Give the NPCs abilities that won't outshine the PCs but will make a meaningful impact in combat. For example, one might be a bard focused on buffs for players, and another might be a witch who curses the enemies to make them easier to hit or reduces their attacks. Then plan the next session in a way that recruiting foes is fun and engaging for all of the PCs (perhaps different NPCs might react differently to different PCs) and requires skillful RP. To emphasize this, perhaps even have the first few NPCs they approach refuse to join them, which makes it clear that it is no easy task to recruit allies.

If you want some inspiration, I'd suggest watching the first 30 minutes of 'Seven Samurai' and basing some of the NPCs off of the characters in the film. In the start, the main character must hire defenders for a nearly suicidal task. When the "typical" samurai refuse to help, he searches for crazier or more unorthodox samurai to join his cause.

Good luck!

[Incorrect]

If they want rp heavy, give them a rp challenge to overcome the fortress. They dont have to deal with the enemies by themselves.
They could bargain with a powerful lord to gain access to some of the spells mentioned above.
Make a deal for reinforcements. There are tons of mercenaries/adventurers.
Sell their souls to devils for power.

As the GM, try asking them; if you guys cant beat them straight up, what are other ways of defeating them?
Try to coach them into comming up with a new strategy, and plan to make it work.


Also, closing ones eyes negates images and miss chance, setting it to 50%.

[Eldariel]

Can't they simply cast Black Tentacles?

[Crake]

If the enemy has a bunch of magic based defenses, just bring a bunch of dispel magics. I know pathfinder nerfed dispel magic to all hell, but something is better than nothing. If they can, they should pick up a few scrolls of greater dispel magic, and maybe some spells that don't target an individual to bypass mirror image. Also, depending on how you run magic missile, a single 9th level casting could quite possibly wipe out up to 5 images.

Alternatively, finding an alternate sensory method, like blindsight, will help negate many of the magical defenses AND avoid the gaze attacks.

True strike on a magus (using spell combat, or just from a wand the round before to combine with spellstrike) should ignore any miss chance and help overcome the high AC, just leaving the issue of the mirror image, which again, should be easily delt with with just a single casting of magic missile (the shield spell will protect the real one, but not the illusions).


Can't they simply cast Black Tentacles?

OP said there was plenty of 60ft deep water that the nagas are presumably staying in. Since the tentacles need to be cast on a surface, the nagas will be out of reach from the bottom. That's assuming they even have a caster capable of casting 4th level spells.

[Psyren]

Do they (or you) not realize the charm gaze can be defeated by a 1st-level spell? Their buffs also have less CL than their CR, so dispelling should be fairly easy too. What level is your party? Do they have no casters at all? (They have a Magus, what else?)

[Calthropstu]

It is a party of 3.
An oracle, a magus and a wizard. The wizard lost his cohort due to awesome story, the magus has a magus cohort. The pcs are all lvl 11. There is also a "supporting cast" provided by the AP consisting of a bard/rogue/aristocrat, a full rogue, a cleric and a ranger all lvl 9.
There's quite a bit of problems though with the party demanding that the bard stay away from combat due to plot reasons, and her insisting on entering combat also for plot reasons.
They had an answer for the charms, but simply weren't expecting them. Thus far they hadn't run into a single caster in the whole dungeon and had geared up to fight the oni on a gorgon.
The problem was, they had become so ridiculously predictable that I sent the nagas to weaken them before the fight and retreat, then support the oni from afar with bombardment spells.
That backfired when the party managed to block one off in a tunnel using a wall of force. Caught, it began charming dangerous pcs and npcs which caused some ridiculous shenanigans, allowing it to outlast the wall of force and escape... albeit with a mere 30 hp left.

[zlefin]

did you account for the charm penalties due to it being in combat?
what did it do/say to the people that were charmed?

[Psyren]

Two Spirit Nagas should be an average encounter for a level 11 party. At level 11 monsters won't just be Charming - they can and will throw around much nastier debuffs like Dominate, Confusion, Blindness and Paralysis. Your PCs should be prepared to counter, dispel or suppress such effects at a moment's notice, and they should be employing divinations to help anticipate them - maybe not every single day, but at least once in a while. The mid-high level adventure paths assume some measure of baseline skill at the game, and that may simply be a level of skill your players don't possess yet.

Are the "supporting cast" NPCs? Why not use them as mouthpieces to provide some suggestions to make the players suck less be more well-rounded? Or have them (particularly the cleric) prep a spell or two to cover a key gap in the party's defenses, while subtly (or not-so-subtly) encouraging the players to cover said gaps themselves when the matter at hand is dealt with.

[Talverin]

I did a little reading about these Spirit Naga, and there's an opening for something great right there in their description.

"Spirit nagas occasionally band together in small groups—some seeming to mimic the covens of hags. While a particular plot or foe might bring these deadly serpents together for a short time, spirit nagas are loyal only to themselves, and such alliances always end in deadly betrayal."

Sounds to me like they might be able to trick one of the Naga away from the other... and make some kind of deal with it. Either it keeps the either Naga entangled, clearing the way (With a favor owed at some point later, one the party might not like) or it helps them defeat the other, and then ranges with them against the Oni on a Gorgon (In which case they would probably owe an even bigger favor. Also, if you're worried about the Petrifying Gas, perhaps the Naga could work some kind of spell to weaken or combat it).

If the Naga Spirits are only willing to work together under great duress, it sounds like there's a lot of room brewing for a dash of betrayal in the plot.

Another idea? Well, the 60ft of water seems to be giving the Naga quite some advantage. Perhaps you could simply have the villagers relay a tale that there's an old channel that could be opened to divert all of that water. Without the water, the Naga would not have a place to hide, and would be easier to trap and kill.

Yet another idea? Perhaps there's some kind of artifact compelling the Naga's submission to the Oni. Perhaps the adventurers could try to steal/dispel/destroy it. Perhaps it's in its' own little hiding spot outside the fortress, or maybe they just need to manage the Naga until one of them can find the artifact and destroy it, releasing the Naga from their captivity. At which point, both flee. Or, perhaps one remains, to help them, in exchange for its' freedom... and revenge on the Oni.

Good luck! But mainly? Remember to have fun.

[lord_khaine]

The whole session was essentially a dismal failure for the PCs. They were unable to retrieve their lost sword which now rests with the boss of the dungeon, and their progress has come to a screeching halt.
They have decided that they need reinforcements, and are going to teleport to a distant down. Two characters have leadership, and a third could retrain to take it.
My players have openly stated this has become a chore. They prefer rp heavy rather than combat heavy, and the adventure we are playing has quite a bit of rp potential... in the next book.

The problem is, the things this ap is throwing at the pcs is incredibly dangerous. These spirit nagas, for example, have a nasty assortment of anti melee protection spell buffs available (mage armor, shield, blur, mirror image) and an at will charm gaze set to dc 20.
Sitting on an ac of 31 with multiple images and a blur effect lets them cast spells with impunity... the party magus needed a nat 20 to hit.
With dispel and fireball also in play with cure spells as well it became a nasty nasty encounter. They managed to pin one naga between them and a wall of force but still couldn't bring it down. They finally managed to get a strategic withdrawal with no deaths on either side.
I'd like some suggestions as to what the party can do.
Here's what the situation looks like:

I second Akal Saris's suggestion for getting inspiration from the 7 Samurai movie.
Your players are clearly better suited for negotiating their way though trouble. So let them rp recruiting some cohorts/allies that can handle a larger part of the fighting?
If you make said cohort a bunch of murderhoboes who have trouble negotiating the sale of a used horse on their own, then you also got an explanation for why someone better at fighting than the PC's are going to take instructions from them.
Another funny place to draw inspiration from this is the manga One Piece. The 3 strongest members of the main team here is in general so dumbt that they are kinda dependent on the smarter team members for a lot of things.

[Calthropstu]

I did a little reading about these Spirit Naga, and there's an opening for something great right there in their description.

"Spirit nagas occasionally band together in small groups—some seeming to mimic the covens of hags. While a particular plot or foe might bring these deadly serpents together for a short time, spirit nagas are loyal only to themselves, and such alliances always end in deadly betrayal."

Sounds to me like they might be able to trick one of the Naga away from the other... and make some kind of deal with it. Either it keeps the either Naga entangled, clearing the way (With a favor owed at some point later, one the party might not like) or it helps them defeat the other, and then ranges with them against the Oni on a Gorgon (In which case they would probably owe an even bigger favor. Also, if you're worried about the Petrifying Gas, perhaps the Naga could work some kind of spell to weaken or combat it).

If the Naga Spirits are only willing to work together under great duress, it sounds like there's a lot of room brewing for a dash of betrayal in the plot.

Another idea? Well, the 60ft of water seems to be giving the Naga quite some advantage. Perhaps you could simply have the villagers relay a tale that there's an old channel that could be opened to divert all of that water. Without the water, the Naga would not have a place to hide, and would be easier to trap and kill.

Yet another idea? Perhaps there's some kind of artifact compelling the Naga's submission to the Oni. Perhaps the adventurers could try to steal/dispel/destroy it. Perhaps it's in its' own little hiding spot outside the fortress, or maybe they just need to manage the Naga until one of them can find the artifact and destroy it, releasing the Naga from their captivity. At which point, both flee. Or, perhaps one remains, to help them, in exchange for its' freedom... and revenge on the Oni.

Good luck! But mainly? Remember to have fun.

The "village" in this case is a forest clearing held by kami. The whole thing is an underground river with natural and worked stone magically enchanted to act as the prison of the oni.
The spirit nagas are actually the offspring of the oni they are there to slay. The males came out as ogre magi, the daughters as spirit nagas.
They are all absolutely loyal to their mother.

[Psyren]

The "village" in this case is a forest clearing held by kami. The whole thing is an underground river with natural and worked stone magically enchanted to act as the prison of the oni.
The spirit nagas are actually the offspring of the oni they are there to slay. The males came out as ogre magi, the daughters as spirit nagas.
They are all absolutely loyal to their mother.

That doesn't mean they have to be loyal to each other. This is a chaotic evil race we're talking about. Why wouldn't one of them want to be "mommy dearest's favorite daughter?"

[Eldariel]

IOP said there was plenty of 60ft deep water that the nagas are presumably staying in. Since the tentacles need to be cast on a surface, the nagas will be out of reach from the bottom. That's assuming they even have a caster capable of casting 4th level spells.

If a party trapped a naga with Wall of Force into a tunnel and there's talk of a Wall of Stone, spell level is not a problem. And neither is surface in a tunnel: the spell can be cast on walls, ceilings, anything. And they have Wall of Stone so they can create their own surfaces. So not a problem.

Though with subsequent info it's far from the only solution. A good one, still.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Have the PCs enter a sort of mini-adventure ostensibly related to their old quest where they find or earn an artifact that seems like it might be useful but doesn't have an immediate function, but it's something they won't sell right away. Another group (preferably one that's been brought up before, whether one they've interacted with or one that's been mentioned) hears about what they found; turns out that it's something they've been looking for for some time. They're an honorable group (if not Lawful) insofar as theft is concerned, and they offer to trade a big favor for it. Let them clear out the dungeon -- or at least retrieve the sword -- in exchange for the item.

This could add some new players to the game, though they could be allies or potential enemies. Whether that ends up creating more problems in the long run is up to you, though it could create additional adventures later.

[Fizban]

It is a party of 3.
An oracle, a magus and a wizard. The wizard lost his cohort due to awesome story, the magus has a magus cohort. The pcs are all lvl 11. There is also a "supporting cast" provided by the AP consisting of a bard/rogue/aristocrat, a full rogue, a cleric and a ranger all lvl 9. . .
The problem was, they had become so ridiculously predictable that I sent the nagas to weaken them before the fight and retreat, then support the oni from afar with bombardment spells.
So they geared up for bruiser fight and you had the casters skip ahead to curveball them after being allowed to clear three floors in peace. Yeah that's kinda your fault.

You'd think having an oracle would mean they could have predicted this, but apparently the pathfinder Oracle is actually a divine sorcerer that is entirely capable of having no oracular powers at all.

They have access to a 9th level cleric, that's enough to do the job. Party walks back with tails between their legs, cleric casts Divination to figure out which fight they're going to fight first, if/when they're going to fight the nagas the cleric can throw down all the buffs needed to negate every spell the PCs report.