Dipping Fighter 1 for feats on a caster?

[Kaiwen]

So I've been rereading old, somewhat historic threads, including this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732). One thing Rubik does is dip Fighter 1, because the fighter gets all three armor proficiencies, as well as tower shield proficiency, as bonus feats, and DCFS them for something more useful.

My question is, would it be worth it to dip Fighter 1 on, say, a Wizard, Cleric, or similarly feat-starved full-progression class? With Wizard, you're losing 1CL and one level of progression, but you're basically doubling your feats. Is this a good trade, or why not?

[ATHATH]

So I've been rereading old, somewhat historic threads, including this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732). One thing Rubik does is dip Fighter 1, because the fighter gets all three armor proficiencies, as well as tower shield proficiency, as bonus feats, and DCFS them for something more useful.

My question is, would it be worth it to dip Fighter 1 on, say, a Wizard, Cleric, or similarly feat-starved full-progression class? With Wizard, you're losing 1CL and one level of progression, but you're basically doubling your feats. Is this a good trade, or why not?
Why not just dip into a prestige class that both advances casting AND gives you proficiencies, like the Dragonslayer PrC?

Also, I'd highly recommend talking with your DM before DCSing your proficiencies away; that's pretty high-order cheese, and it could break a lot of things if used in an actual game.

[ryu]

Drop a caster level for five or so anything feats? I wouldn't unless I wanted something extremely specific. Do keep in mind that if you're shuffling feats there's already racial bonus feats, flaws that are almost certainly allowed as they're lower on the crazy totem pole than shuffling, and a lost caster class level is BIG.

[Rebel7284]

A wizard's power stems from spells because magic is the most powerful thing in this game and offers a solution to any problem. For example, if you want a fighter feat, Heroics just gives you one! While there are a few feats that will make a wizard more powerful (Craft Contingent Spell, Uncanny Forethought), typically feats make a lot less of a difference on a full caster because the spell load is what does most of the work. If ridiculous things like Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos is allowed, you can be an elf and trade out those weapon proficiencies I guess, but it very quickly gets to a point of diminishing returns because all you want is more powerful spells....

[Telonius]

-1 caster level and 2 fewer spells per day; versus a bunch of feats to DCS away, a second iterative at 20, a couple of extra HP, and a better Fort save. Not going to say that it's impossible to make that a good trade - there are probably going to be a few cases where it would be worth it - but you'd need to choose those feats really wisely.

[ryu]

-1 caster level and 2 fewer spells per day; versus a bunch of feats to DCS away, a second iterative at 20, a couple of extra HP, and a better Fort save. Not going to say that it's impossible to make that a good trade - there are probably going to be a few cases where it would be worth it - but you'd need to choose those feats really wisely.

Not just wise picking of feats. Assuming you were already picking to the best of your ability, your next five choices together need to be better than not just all that you've mentioned, but also wizard prestige classes. Ha HAAAAAAAAAAAA yeah no. Bonus points for prestige classes which GRANT EVEN MORE FEATS WITHOUT SUCKING.

[Telonius]

It's only the last level of the build that would be swapped out. There's got to be some prestige class out there that would get early entry through feats. If it's enabling you to get enough things that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to fit (through various front-loaded PrCs you wouldn't be able to take all at once otherwise)? Maybe.

[Darrin]

My question is, would it be worth it to dip Fighter 1 on, say, a Wizard, Cleric, or similarly feat-starved full-progression class? With Wizard, you're losing 1CL and one level of progression, but you're basically doubling your feats. Is this a good trade, or why not?

If you need fighter feats, Martial Wizard ACF is a thing (Unearthed Arcana p. 59). Also, some feats can be obtained via spells: heroics (Spell Compendium) to grab Martial Study/Stance is popular in some circles. Mirror move (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a) is a little more obscure.

In most Wizard 20 builds, feats usually aren't what make them so powerful. They're more like extra frosting on the "I Win" cake. Give a Tier 1 enough time to prep, and he can generally find a way to brute-force any challenge/obstacle with just his spells without having to rely much on his feats. There are some exceptions when you get into various Metamagic fromagery, but again, that's mostly frosting on a very large multi-layered cake.

Most Fighter dips on a Wizard are probably going to be gishes grabbing all armor/weapon proficiencies for gish-friendly prestige classes like Spellsword and Eldritch Knight. Some popular gish stubs start with:

Something 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Prestige? 7

That Something could be Fighter 1, Ranger 1, Paladin 1, Duskblade 1, or Crusader 1, depending on personal taste and/or multiclass penalties.

Fighter dips on Clerics aren't quite so popular because the Cleric can already out-fight the fighter once they get divine powah! If they need fighter feats, Ordained Champion can trade domains for those.

[ATHATH]

Again, why dip Fighter when you can dip Dragonslayer instead and keep up your 20/20 casting progression?

[Telonius]

Again, why dip Fighter when you can dip Dragonslayer instead and keep up your 20/20 casting progression?

If the whole point is conserving feats, paying two feats that a caster will rarely want (Dodge and Iron Will) to qualify for it kind of defeats the purpose. Though if we're going totally nuts, why not both? Take a fighter level, Chaos Shuffle away the proficiencies (taking Dodge and Iron Will for two of them); then take a level of Dragonslayer and Chaos Shuffle them away again.

[ryu]

If the whole point is conserving feats, paying two feats that a caster will rarely want (Dodge and Iron Will) to qualify for it kind of defeats the purpose. Though if we're going totally nuts, why not both? Take a fighter level, Chaos Shuffle away the proficiencies (taking Dodge and Iron Will for two of them); then take a level of Dragonslayer and Chaos Shuffle them away again.

Well for one iron will is 3000 gp. Feat granting locations and week of time are fun.

[Psyren]

Even with Dark Chaos Shuffle I see little reason to do this. Casters have comparatively few feats that they need, even to prestige, compared to the martial classes; concurrently, they have much more reason to avoid dipping (i.e. caster level progression.) If you truly need more feats, that's what flaws are for (which, coincidentally, tend to affect casters less harshly as well since most penalize more martial things like attack rolls and skill checks.)

[gkathellar]

If you have a desperate need for five feats and a level to spare, sure. I'm not even convinced it's all that strong compared to other shenanigans in the type of game that allows for DCS.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If DCFS works on proficiencies, you might as well shuffle temporary bonus feats: heroics and mirror move, but also feat leech and bite of the were-X. Doesn't require a dip, or even any special technique, and straight-up grants feats for XP. Thought bottle and go.

[noce]

Why just a level? Take 2 for another feat!

Why go wizard 20 when you can go wizard 1 (scrive scroll) / fighter 2 / psywar 2 / ranger 3 (track, twf, endurance) / swashbuckler 1 (weapon finesse) / monk 2 / marshal 1 (skill focus diplomacy) / soulknife 1 (wild talent) / swordsage 1 (weapon focus)...

[Nifft]

If you're using Dark Chaos Shuffle to trade class proficiencies as if those proficiencies were feats, then one level of Dragonslayer gets you a lot more than five.

The cheesiest interpretation of gaining "proficiency with all martial weapons" is that you gain one feat per martial weapon type that exists.

Pay 2 feats to get in, exchange that for upwards of ~30 feats.


== == ==

Just for the record, here's what I've said as a DM: Feats can be expended to gain proficiency, but gaining proficiency is not the same as gaining a feat. Similarly, you can expend a feat to gain an Extra Spell, but gaining a spell through other means is not the same as gaining a feat.

[gkathellar]

The cheesiest interpretation of gaining "proficiency with all martial weapons" is that you gain one feat per martial weapon type that exists.

Pay 2 feats to get in, exchange that for upwards of ~30 feats.

This one doesn't work by RAW, fwiw. The Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency feats are unusual in that they explicitly state they're granted as bonus feats to characters of certain base classes (except in the case of Light Armor Proficiency, see below). The weapon proficiency feats have no equivalent text. While stupid, this is fairly unambiguous (and incidentally means a PrC like Dragonslayer does not grant these feats).

It's worth noting that this text should absolutely be ignored for sanity reasons. By RAW these feats are granted to certain characters in addition to the proficiencies granted by their classes (which don't mention any feats, and so have nothing to do with them), making them 100% redundant. It gets worse: Light Armor Proficiency's text, in particular, is nonfunctional. It reads:

All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
Think about how that works in terms of non-core classes, or multiclass characters. A literal reading implies that a 1st level psion, for instance, gains the feat. But our hypothetical wizard who takes a fighter level gets Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency as bonus feats but not Light Armor Proficiency, because the above text refers to characters, not classes. This is without even getting into ACFs that drop armor proficiencies.

Yeah, that's how bad it is. Your DM ruling is absolutely what a sane approach demands.

[Silvernale]

Honestly I deny multiclassing for purely mechanical benefits. If the character has no legitimate reason to take levels of a class, they don't.

[Nifft]

This one doesn't work by RAW, fwiw. The Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency feats are unusual in that they explicitly state they're granted as bonus feats to characters of certain base classes (except in the case of Light Armor Proficiency, see below). The weapon proficiency feats have no equivalent text. While stupid, this is fairly unambiguous (and incidentally means a PrC like Dragonslayer does not grant these feats).

It's worth noting that this text should absolutely be ignored for sanity reasons. By RAW these feats are granted to certain characters in addition to the proficiencies granted by their classes (which don't mention any feats, and so have nothing to do with them), making them 100% redundant. It gets worse: Light Armor Proficiency's text, in particular, is nonfunctional. It reads:

Think about how that works in terms of non-core classes, or multiclass characters. A literal reading implies that a 1st level psion, for instance, gains the feat. But our hypothetical wizard who takes a fighter level gets Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency as bonus feats but not Light Armor Proficiency, because the above text refers to characters, not classes. This is without even getting into ACFs that drop armor proficiencies.

Yeah, that's how bad it is. Your DM ruling is absolutely what a sane approach demands.

Great explanation, and thanks for the correction.

[ryu]

Honestly I deny multiclassing for purely mechanical benefits. If the character has no legitimate reason to take levels of a class, they don't.

How about the course of self betterment based on desire to not suck at your job? Shouldn't training to become a better adventurer logically follow paths the person doing the training thinks will be most effective?