Clarifying Grease spell

[Jqspin]

How exactly does a wand of grease work at the minimum level?

Player uses the wand of grease to place a 10ft square under the monster. The monster gets a reflex save correct? What would the minimum DC for that be? 11? Is the monster in the square required to make a dc10 balance check if they aren't moving and only attacking?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How exactly does a wand of grease work at the minimum level?

Player uses the wand of grease to place a 10ft square under the monster. The monster gets a reflex save correct? What would the minimum DC for that be? 11? Is the monster in the square required to make a dc10 balance check if they aren't moving and only attacking?Wands are typically made at the absolute minimum level required for whatever spells are in them, which includes the required ability score, so a wand of grease would be made at CL 1 and Int (or Cha, or whatever) 11.

Everything else works exactly like the spell would if being cast by a character with the above characteristics.

[Jqspin]

Thanks for the quick response.

Is the balance check only applied on moving through the area or attacking as well?

[ryu]

Thanks for the quick response.

Is the balance check only applied on moving through the area or attacking as well?

Only movement but standing up is movement.

[KillianHawkeye]

standing up is movement.

Not really. Movement is defined by going to another square. Anything you do that doesn't result in leaving the place you're at can't be considered movement.

You might be getting confused by the fact that standing up uses a move-equivalent action?

[ryu]

Not really. Movement is defined by going to another square. Anything you do that doesn't result in leaving the place you're at can't be considered movement.

You might be getting confused by the fact that standing up uses a move-equivalent action?

I had assumed that literally anything involving the change of position relative to anything at all was movement. Besides in any case where ambiguity exists getting up itself is a logical trigger of the balance effect. Have you actually forced yourself to your feet on a slick surface? It's HARDER than walking without falling over if anything.

[Darrin]

The RAW on grease is a little... slippery, shall we say. The designers were never really entirely clear on when exactly a creature needs to make Balance check or when it is considered "balancing".

When the spell is initially cast, any creature in the affected area must make a Ref save or fall prone. By strict RAW, this is not a "Balance" check, so after the Ref save is made, if the DM wants to get pedantic about whether or not the creature is "balancing", then... yeah, they can be pedantic about it.

After the spell is initially cast, a creature is subject to a Balance check only when they "walk within or through the area". Since the initial area is only 10' by 10', any creature that succeeded on the Ref save can usually exit the area by stepping into an adjacent un-greased square. Since this isn't "moving through", there's no Balance check required.

I'm not sure there's a definitive RAW answer to whether "standing up" counts as movement or "moving through" a square. My inclination would be to say "yes it is" but that's likely a DM's Call or Whatever Works Best For Your Group kinda thing.

So, you may ask, why do wizards/rogues keep raving about this spell? The Ref save DC is low and if the creature can just step out or remain in the square without making a Balance check, then the spell does nothing?

Not exactly... because there's an additional rule in the Skills section on what happens when you are attacking or being attacked while standing on a slippery surface (PHB p. 67). A creature needs to be able to move within its own square in order to adequately protect itself from attacks. This means if a rogue attacks a creature while it's standing on a greased square, it has to make a Balance check. Once it's made that Balance check, regardless of whether it's successful or whether the creature made the initial Ref save, the creature is from that point "balancing" on a slippery surface. If it doesn't have at least 5 ranks in Balance (and most creatures do not), it's now considered flat-footed.

You could go into the particulars of when exactly it becomes flat-footed, whether that happens on an attack that misses or only if an attack does damage... but if you're splitting hairs over that sort of minutiae, odds are pretty good that this isn't going to be an enjoyable gaming session regardless of whether you win that argument or not.

[Deophaun]

After the spell is initially cast, a creature is subject to a Balance check only when they "walk within or through the area". Since the initial area is only 10' by 10', any creature that succeeded on the Ref save can usually exit the area by stepping into an adjacent un-greased square. Since this isn't "moving through", there's no Balance check required.
Where'd the switch from "walk within or through the area" to "moving through" come from?

[Bronk]

For me, the weird thing about this spell is that quite a few people I've played with in AD&D and 3.0 (including, luckily for them, the DMs), have also assumed that the grease was flammable. Hardly anyone used it for it's slippery properties, just to start a grease fire. Of course, nothing in the spell says the grease is flammable, just slippery, but I think they assumed that since part of the material components were a greasy pork rind, they were good to go, and no one questioned it. It's never come up in 3.5 though, nor in any of my own games.

[Darrin]

For me, the weird thing about this spell is that quite a few people I've played with in AD&D and 3.0 (including, luckily for them, the DMs), have also assumed that the grease was flammable.

As you point out, the spell description doesn't say one way or the other, so mostly this boils down to What Works Best For Your Group. However, in 3.5 there was an incendiary slime spell published in Complete Mage that quite clearly assumes that the grease spell in the PHB is non-flammable. It's not clear if whoever wrote the spell for Complete Mage was cognizant of the original intent of the PHB authors.

[Jqspin]

I had assumed that the grease was flammable and ruled it that way in my most recent session. Seeing that there is a flammable grease spell at lvl 2, might have to consider it not being flammable.

I'd like to thank everyone for their input on clarifying how the spell works

[ryu]

I had assumed that the grease was flammable and ruled it that way in my most recent session. Seeing that there is a flammable grease spell at lvl 2, might have to consider it not being flammable.

I'd like to thank everyone for their input on clarifying how the spell works

I mean it's really more of a sidegrade than a straight boost. Flammable grease can be taken care of with a quick spark and it's a very real possibility that's less dangerous than letting it stay for people without good balance.

[Deophaun]

However, in 3.5 there was an incendiary slime spell published in Complete Mage that quite clearly assumes that the grease spell in the PHB is non-flammable.
No, it doesn't. Grease has been treated as being as flammable as oil in the past, following the same rules; burning for two rounds, dealing 1d3 damage, likely taking a standard action to ignite. Incendiary slime is much more energetic than oil and easier to ignite. It's like saying the existence of napalm means whale oil doesn't burn.

[Vaern]

That's a reasonable argument. Grease could burn normally. Incendiary slime, on the other hand, literally explodes for a small fireball's worth of burst damage.

[WhiteBread]

The RAW on grease -snip
After the spell is initially cast, a creature is subject to a Balance check only when they "walk within or through the area". Since the initial area is only 10' by 10', any creature that succeeded on the Ref save can usually exit the area by stepping into an adjacent un-greased square.
-snip

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. (SRD: Prone rules)
5 feet counts as a move action and therefore getting out of grease does count as moving through too.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't know about clarifying grease, but I do know the way to clarify butter is to gently melt it and skim off the butter fat that floats to the top.

https://altonbrown.com/clarified-butter-and-ghee-recipes/

[Darrin]

5 feet counts as a move action and therefore getting out of grease does count as moving through too.

5-foot steps are defined as a "No Action" (if that makes any sense). They decidedly do not count as a move action. And we don't know exactly if they count as "movement" because the PHB never defines what constitutes "movement" outside of move actions. In general, a 5-foot step isn't considered "movement" for the purposes of AoOs. As we also see with AoOs, exiting a square is not the same as "moving through" a square. I have no idea what moving "within" a square would involve... the rules don't come anywhere near defining that.

Even more troubling, however, is the use of the word "walk" in the spell description. If you're going by a strict RAW reading, this allows you to jump or crawl out of a greased square because those two actions are decidedly not walking. Tumbling could also be argued as not walking.

If the greased squares were explicitly described as difficult terrain, then this would limit some of this semantic tomfoolery, as you cannot run, charge, or take 5-foot steps while standing in a square with difficult terrain. The RAW here isn't exactly clear, as the spell description doesn't mention whether greased squares should be treated as difficult terrain. However, the text for the Balance skill suggests otherwise, although it calls most slippery surfaces as "difficult surfaces" rather than "difficult terrain". The DMG also appears to consider any slippery surface to be "difficult terrain", but doesn't actually get around to defining exactly what constitutes difficult terrain. The Rules Compendium is also not so helpful here... it gives a clearer definition on what might be considered difficult terrain (p. 95), but does not explicitly mention icy or slippery surfaces.

So, to sum up: the spell description is badly written and not particularly well-thought out. RAW isn't clear, so you'll probably need to use some common sense and decide What Works Best For Your Group.

[Thurbane]

Fun fact: clarified grease is called ghee.