What are the best feat fixes?

[zlefin]

I've never liked how weak the feats are in 3.5 (and kinda true in pathfinder as well, but less of an issue there). Most feats just don't feel very "feat-worthy" at all. and they're pretty weak, and oftne lack useful scaling.

I'm looking for homebrew/projects that have redone the 3.5 feats into something much more powerful (except for the ones that are already super strong of course). whether by consolidating them, rewriting them, or whatever. even if it's just for the core feats.

[Psyren]

Some are better in Pathfinder (e.g. Dodge and Toughness) but some are definitely worse. Check the "Feat Taxes" link in my sig.

[Rizban]

Some are better in Pathfinder (e.g. Dodge and Toughness) but some are definitely worse. Check the "Feat Taxes" link in my sig.It's almost like they thought giving martial characters neat or useful tricks might unbalance the game. :smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

It's almost like they thought giving martial characters neat or useful tricks might unbalance the game. :smallannoyed:

Initially perhaps, but in more recent PF material martials have gotten quite a lot of nice things, from Advanced Weapon Training to Equipment Tricks to Stamina to Item Mastery. As the GM, you can also (if you think your martials are still too far behind) make them ascend to Mythic while leaving the casters as-is, without upsetting their current levels.

[EldritchWeaver]

It's not a feat tax removal system per se, but Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) does provide ways to avoid bad feats by providing alternates which are appropriately beefed up. It does overhaul the capabilities of the martials completely, but that might be right up your alley.

[Cosi]

I've never liked how weak the feats are in 3.5 (and kinda true in pathfinder as well, but less of an issue there). Most feats just don't feel very "feat-worthy" at all. and they're pretty weak, and oftne lack useful scaling.

I'm looking for homebrew/projects that have redone the 3.5 feats into something much more powerful (except for the ones that are already super strong of course). whether by consolidating them, rewriting them, or whatever. even if it's just for the core feats.

Races of War (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=33310) is a homebrew project that proposes "scaling feats" (as well as some other stuff). Basically, instead of taking Two Weapon Fighting, and then taking Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, you take one feat, and it scales to a level appropriate amount of "being good at stabbing people with two swords at once". Note that while the concept in theory is general, the ones in RoW are almost all for Fighter types. To some degree, this is a good thing as those are the classes who get the least from current feats -- Greenbound Summoning or DMM are pretty good already. There are also some non-BAB scaling feats on the rest of that site.

However, the author of those feats has since said that he thinks that was the wrong direction to take feats. He thinks that instead of making feats more significant (as their rarity implies they should be), we should make feats more common (as their power implies they should be). So instead of having one feat every three levels that is large an impressive (like Uncanny Forethought, or the aforementioned Greenbound Summoning) you should get a feat or two every level that is less impressive (like Educated, or Tomb-Tainted Soul).

[flappeercraft]

Something that I think is a decent fix for dodge is changing it from a +1 bonus to AC from one target, would be a 1/round reflex save that allows you to avoid anything with an attack roll at DC 10/15+ Attack roll

[Goaty14]

Something that I think is a decent fix for dodge is changing it from a +1 bonus to AC from one target, would be a 1/round reflex save that allows you to avoid anything with an attack roll at DC 10/15+ Attack roll

There is a word for that, and it is called "Defensive Roll" (Rogue Special Ability). Also whyhow would you counter with an attack roll?

[flappeercraft]

There is a word for that, and it is called "Defensive Roll" (Rogue Special Ability). Also whyhow would you counter with an attack roll?

Well yes, basically that as a feat. Also I think I explained it wrong. You can make a reflex save to avoid anything WITH and attack roll.

[radthemad4]

Races of War (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=33310) is a homebrew project that proposes "scaling feats" (as well as some other stuff). Basically, instead of taking Two Weapon Fighting, and then taking Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, you take one feat, and it scales to a level appropriate amount of "being good at stabbing people with two swords at once". Note that while the concept in theory is general, the ones in RoW are almost all for Fighter types. To some degree, this is a good thing as those are the classes who get the least from current feats -- Greenbound Summoning or DMM are pretty good already. There are also some non-BAB scaling feats on the rest of that site.

However, the author of those feats has since said that he thinks that was the wrong direction to take feats. He thinks that instead of making feats more significant (as their rarity implies they should be), we should make feats more common (as their power implies they should be). So instead of having one feat every three levels that is large an impressive (like Uncanny Forethought, or the aforementioned Greenbound Summoning) you should get a feat or two every level that is less impressive (like Educated, or Tomb-Tainted Soul).Probably worth mentioning, Races of War makes Power Attack and Combat Expertise free and Exotic Weapon Proficiency practically free.

One of my groups combines the two approaches in a way that I personally find the most fun. You get a standard 3.5 feat every level, and additionally, levels 1, 3, 6, etc. grant a 'Big Feat' which is a Scaling Feat from Races of war, some other Frank & K Feat, e.g. Product of Infernal Dalliance, Attune Sphere/Domain, etc. (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Spheres_and_Feats#The_Feats)

Some links I use for scaling feats:
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Style#The_New_Combat_Ready_Feats
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54123
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51050
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49872
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Scaling_Feats

[Frozen_Feet]

Once upon a time I had nothing better to do than try my hand at reworking SRD feats. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?154811-Feat-synergy) It's not a very elegant system but it's still in the direction you want

[Hal0Badger]

It's not a feat tax removal system per se, but Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) does provide ways to avoid bad feats by providing alternates which are appropriately beefed up. It does overhaul the capabilities of the martials completely, but that might be right up your alley.
I second this. Most of the abilities presented in SoM scales with BaB, some abilities give skill ranks〓HD automatically so you get basically max rank in some skills. Also, as an addition to vertical increases it also provides horizantal increase in a lot areas and it is not just for fighter like characters but all mundanes.

[ngilop]

Yeah the races of War feats are pretty good. The scaling is nice.

That's really all that the feats needs ( minus item crafting and meta magic, and well anything spell related) just some scaling.

For example when I redid my feats I had Toughness gives 2 extra HP, plus an additional 1 per level, so at 1st level it gives you the same 3 HP, but at 20th level instead of getting the same 3, you get 22 HP from the feat:)

[Grod_The_Giant]

However, the author of those feats has since said that he thinks that was the wrong direction to take feats. He thinks that instead of making feats more significant (as their rarity implies they should be), we should make feats more common (as their power implies they should be). So instead of having one feat every three levels that is large an impressive (like Uncanny Forethought, or the aforementioned Greenbound Summoning) you should get a feat or two every level that is less impressive (like Educated, or Tomb-Tainted Soul).

The more homebrew fixes I attempt, the more I start to value the simple, low-profile fix. What's the big problem with feats in 3.5? They tend to be individually weak, and the game has a lot of feat taxes. Rewriting existing feats would be a significant overhaul... which would, in turn, wall off non-adapted feats (because they're no longer at the default level of power) and quite likely require significant overhauls of PrC requirements and the like. Giving out more feats helps address both problems simultaneously, and all you lose is... maybe the Fighter, who was already kind of a lost cause.

Personally, I like tying bonus feats to BAB. In my Giants and Graveyards overhaul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920440&postcount=2), I handed out a bunch of the basic "everyone should be able to do this" feats at BAB+1, and granted free upgrades of things like TWF at higher BAB levels.

[BassoonHero]

I'm working on a systematic fix. The main principles are:


Confusing rules aren't fun. The core mechanics should be flexible enough to avoid confusing corner cases (natural weapons, multiweapon fighting, etc).
Taxes aren't fun. Basic mechanics and combat options shouldn't be gated behind unecessary prerequisites or saddled with removable penalties.
Bad options aren't fun. Underpowered feats and abilities should be buffed; if they can't be fixed, they should be removed.


The greatest impact to feats is that a great number of them are eliminated entirely. Many are unsalvageable, many exist solely as taxes, and many more should be consolidated into single feats that scale.

The following feats are effectively free:


Simple Weapon Proficiency.
Improved Unarmed Strike.
Weapon Finesse and Brutal Throw. (You may always use your choice of Str or Dex when attacking with a melee or thrown weapon.)
Precise shot. (The penalty for attacking into melee no longer exists.)
Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and Flyby Attack. (You can freely move before and after your standard action.)
Boundless Assault, Rapid Blitz, Two-Weapon Pounce, Improved Manyshot. (You may full attack as a standard action.)


The following feats are combined, consolidated, or otherwise made to scale automatically:


Dodge gives a general +1 dodge bonus to AC, plus 1 point per five levels.
Weapon Focus gives +1 to attack and damage with a chosen weapon, plus 1 point per five levels (eliminating the rest of the feat chain).
Two-Weapon Fighting effectively includes Improved, Greater, and Superior TWF.
Martial Weapon Proficiency gives proficiency in all martial weapons.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency gives proficiency in an exotic weapon quality, which is sort of like a weapon class.


The following feats have new effects:


Improved Unarmed Strike allows you to apply two weapon qualities of your choice to your unarmed strikes.
Point Blank Shot eliminates the attack of opportunity for making ranged attacks while threatened. It is no longer a prerequisite other archery feats.
Deflect Arrows lets you parry ranged attacks (including from spells!).
Improved [combat maneuver] feats give you a bonus and some cool tricks, but most of them don't need to remove an attack of opportunity.


In addition, I made a couple of magic changes:


Casting defensively increases the casting time for a spell. Combat Casting removes this penalty. (Concentration is now a caster level check, not a skill.)
Crafting magic items is much faster. XP costs are gone; you pay market price.


I don't have fixes for all of the awful feats yet, but here are some ideas I have:


Iron Will: Add Mettle for will saves. You suffer no penalty for being shaken. If you are frightened or panicked, you suffer only the normal penalties for being shaken.
Great Fortitude: Add Mettle for fortitude saves. You suffer no penalty for being fatigued. If you are exhausted, you suffer only the normal penalties for being fatigued.
Endurance: You gain damage reduction 1/ and resistance 1 to all types of energy. These both increase by 1 for every five character levels. When you are dying, you automatically become stable.

[zlefin]

thanks for the links all, nice stuff.

[Cosi]

Crafting magic items is much faster. XP costs are gone; you pay market price.

Why do crafting feats exist then? You can already get magic items for fair market price -- it's called buying them in the market. Either you have magic marts, and you are asking people to pay for an ability they already have, or you don't have magic marts and this is a feat tax that allows people to ignore whatever reasons you had for not having magic marts.

[BassoonHero]

Why do crafting feats exist then?

A fair question, and one yet lacking an answer. I'm open to suggestions.

For background, I consider the existing XP system to be a disaster and I intend to replace it. You can design a D&D-like XP system to have either one of two desirable properties: either a given challenge is worth a fixed amount of XP, or you need a fixed amount of XP to level up. In the former case, you need a chart mapping XP to character level and a chart mapping encounter level to XP reward. In the latter, you need a fixed number of XP between levels and a chart mapping *relative* encounter level to XP reward (e.g. a challenge at the party's level = 5 xp, a challenge at the party's level plus two = 10 xp, etc). D&D 3.5 chooses neither; you need a variable amount of XP to level up, but you still need a full two-dimensional chart to determine XP reward based on both party level and encounter level. It's the worst of both worlds.

Another principle of my system of revisions is that *overly fiddly mechanics aren't fun*. By "fiddly", I mean that a certain mechanic makes you keep track of a great deal of information, each atom of which is insignificant. The 3.5 XP system is the most egregious example. Every character has a separate XP total, which is a four-to-six-digit number. This number (theoretically) changes several times per session, although in practice in most games I've played the DM has done the math after session and sent the final tally by email/whatever. It's very easy for the DM or players to make simple arithmetic errors and it's difficult or impossible to audit the figure or reconstruct it if a sheet is lost.

One fix is to use the XP system from Unearthed Arcana. This is almost a strict upgrade from the standard system. The gameplay difference is that it screws up XP *costs*. Other than that, the downside is that it's nearly as fiddly as the original system.

The fix I prefer is to go the other way-- declare that it takes 100 xp to level up, level-appropriate challenges are worth 10 xp, and more or less challenging encounters are worth more or less. You'd have a very small XP reward table, ranging perhaps from -4 to +4. The math is much simpler. This type of system is inherently flexible: you can declare that it takes 10 XP to level up and give ad-hoc rewards at the end of the session. Or you can use story points, assigning a few XP to each objective. If you like, you can even increase the level-up cost at higher levels. This kind of system is used by many RPGs; I first encountered it in Savage Worlds. The upsides are flexibility and simplicity; the downside is that XP costs basically don't work.

Magic item crafting in 3.5 is worthwhile for two reasons: first, it gets around game-specific availability issues, and second, it's free money. The downsides are that crafting is ludicrously slow because crafting speed doesn't scale, that it requires laborious and potentially error-prone bookkeeping, and that it mostly benefits casting classes that least need the help. Now, magic item availability is a problem that needs to be solved for everyone, *especially* non-casters. And the "free money" aspect depends on implementation details of an XP system I'm not keeping.

Ideally, I'd like to come up with a simple system to handle downtime abilities, including both magical and mundane crafting, professions, and possibly even knowledges. I am totally fine with these abilities being low-powered, because they wouldn't be competing for feat slots or skill points. Having item creation feats that provide little benefit is not a great solution, but it's largely a placeholder until I sort out the rest. In the mean time, it could certainly be a *better* placeholder with some tweaking. So, as I said at the top of this comment, I am open to suggestions.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ditching the xp cost on crafting is probably a good thing. Ditching the discount, maybe not so much. Why not keep the crafting-cost at 50% gold, like Pathfinder does? Taking crafting feats is probably one of the most party-friendly things a caster can do, since everyone benefits from having cheap wondrous items and the like. (Even wands and scrolls are good if you've got Rogues around).

[ngilop]

A fair question, and one yet lacking an answer. I'm open to suggestions.

For background, I consider the existing XP system to be a disaster and I intend to replace it. You can design a D&D-like XP system to have either one of two desirable properties: either a given challenge is worth a fixed amount of XP, or you need a fixed amount of XP to level up. In the former case, you need a chart mapping XP to character level and a chart mapping encounter level to XP reward. In the latter, you need a fixed number of XP between levels and a chart mapping *relative* encounter level to XP reward (e.g. a challenge at the party's level = 5 xp, a challenge at the party's level plus two = 10 xp, etc). D&D 3.5 chooses neither; you need a variable amount of XP to level up, but you still need a full two-dimensional chart to determine XP reward based on both party level and encounter level. It's the worst of both worlds.

Another principle of my system of revisions is that *overly fiddly mechanics aren't fun*. By "fiddly", I mean that a certain mechanic makes you keep track of a great deal of information, each atom of which is insignificant. The 3.5 XP system is the most egregious example. Every character has a separate XP total, which is a four-to-six-digit number. This number (theoretically) changes several times per session, although in practice in most games I've played the DM has done the math after session and sent the final tally by email/whatever. It's very easy for the DM or players to make simple arithmetic errors and it's difficult or impossible to audit the figure or reconstruct it if a sheet is lost.

One fix is to use the XP system from Unearthed Arcana. This is almost a strict upgrade from the standard system. The gameplay difference is that it screws up XP *costs*. Other than that, the downside is that it's nearly as fiddly as the original system.

The fix I prefer is to go the other way-- declare that it takes 100 xp to level up, level-appropriate challenges are worth 10 xp, and more or less challenging encounters are worth more or less. You'd have a very small XP reward table, ranging perhaps from -4 to +4. The math is much simpler. This type of system is inherently flexible: you can declare that it takes 10 XP to level up and give ad-hoc rewards at the end of the session. Or you can use story points, assigning a few XP to each objective. If you like, you can even increase the level-up cost at higher levels. This kind of system is used by many RPGs; I first encountered it in Savage Worlds. The upsides are flexibility and simplicity; the downside is that XP costs basically don't work.

Magic item crafting in 3.5 is worthwhile for two reasons: first, it gets around game-specific availability issues, and second, it's free money. The downsides are that crafting is ludicrously slow because crafting speed doesn't scale, that it requires laborious and potentially error-prone bookkeeping, and that it mostly benefits casting classes that least need the help. Now, magic item availability is a problem that needs to be solved for everyone, *especially* non-casters. And the "free money" aspect depends on implementation details of an XP system I'm not keeping.

Ideally, I'd like to come up with a simple system to handle downtime abilities, including both magical and mundane crafting, professions, and possibly even knowledges. I am totally fine with these abilities being low-powered, because they wouldn't be competing for feat slots or skill points. Having item creation feats that provide little benefit is not a great solution, but it's largely a placeholder until I sort out the rest. In the mean time, it could certainly be a *better* placeholder with some tweaking. So, as I said at the top of this comment, I am open to suggestions.


So.. that is kinda exactly how exp is done in D&D. except instead of saying your specific numbers ( 100 exp to level a level appropriate = 5 exp and level plus 1 is 10 exp) D&D 3.4 says you need 1000 exp to go from level 1 to level 2 and a level appropriate encounter nets you 300 exp.

its literally what you claim to 'fix' D&D exp with, just different numbers.. UNLESS you are saying that every level to increase needs the same amount of exp and every encounter earns the same amount of exp, then yeah that's different.

[Psyren]

Ditching the xp cost on crafting is probably a good thing. Ditching the discount, maybe not so much. Why not keep the crafting-cost at 50% gold, like Pathfinder does? Taking crafting feats is probably one of the most party-friendly things a caster can do, since everyone benefits from having cheap wondrous items and the like. (Even wands and scrolls are good if you've got Rogues around).

PF goes further than that - they recommend (per Ultimate Campaign) that characters with a lot of crafting feats should be allowed to exceed their WBL slightly, say up to 15%, otherwise there is no real benefit to having the crafting feats. This also rewards them for making the party's gear.

Our GM used that guideline to rule that for every crafting feat we have, we'd be able to exceed WBL by 3-5%. This was more balanced overall than letting them simply double their WBL (by crafting everything at half-price) or by nerfing all the treasure to account for a crafting PC (rendering the feats useless.)

[EldritchWeaver]

<Complaining about XP system>

I can't find the link anymore, but someone suggested to give simply 1-3 XP for easy, normal and difficult encounters. Then every X points you collect, the PC levels up. Not sure what he exactly recommended, but if 13.33 encounters are needed to level up, then this is about 27 XP. Adjust as needed.

Or ditch XP entirely and level up at your own leisure. Did the party defeat enough? Then just allow them to level up.

[Telonius]

Here are a few of the Feat fixes I use in my house rules.

Weapon Focus gives +1, +1/5 Fighter levels. (Fighter gets a Adaptable Focus at 5th to switch the particular weapon by training an hour). Greater Weapon Focus doubles the bonus.

Weapon Specialization gives +2 damage, +2/5 Fighter levels. Greater Weapon Specialization doubles the bonus.

TWF scales to include iteratives. Improved and Greater TWF each decrease the penalty by 1 (to a minimum of zero).

Rapid Shot scales to include iteratives. Same deal as TWF, for the Combat Style feats.

Add, "Okay, you know what we meant there" to Ride-By Attack. It becomes the mounted equivalent of Spring Attack.


For Weapon Finesse, while I haven't implemented this yet, I've seriously considered making it a property of the weapon rather than a property of the wielder. Rogues and other Dex-based combatants are already feat-starved, and Weapon Finesse on those characters is common enough that it's almost a class feature disguised as a feat. Similar thing with Power Attack.

I've thought about either making the +2/+2 feats scale with level, grant the skill as "always a class skill," or both.

[Psyren]

I can't find the link anymore, but someone suggested to give simply 1-3 XP for easy, normal and difficult encounters. Then every X points you collect, the PC levels up. Not sure what he exactly recommended, but if 13.33 encounters are needed to level up, then this is about 27 XP. Adjust as needed.

Or ditch XP entirely and level up at your own leisure. Did the party defeat enough? Then just allow them to level up.

These work fine in PF. The trouble in 3.5 is that XP is used for other things, necessitating a running tally.

[Grod_The_Giant]

These work fine in PF. The trouble in 3.5 is that XP is used for other things, necessitating a running tally.
"One thing that costs exp per session" is a decent enough hack.

[DEMON]

Taking crafting feats is probably one of the most party-friendly things a caster can do, since everyone benefits from having cheap wondrous items and the like. (Even wands and scrolls are good if you've got Rogues around).

Not just Rogues... or other UMD classes. Classes such as Rangers and other non-full-casters can benefit from these as well.

[BassoonHero]

Why not keep the crafting-cost at 50% gold, like Pathfinder does?

50% seems like a pretty hefty discount. In principle, though, I have no objection. If I ever sort out a background system that includes crafting, a much smaller discount would probably be appropriate because the player wouldn't be spending a feat.


UNLESS you are saying that every level to increase needs the same amount of exp and every encounter earns the same amount of exp, then yeah that's different.

Almost. A challenge would give XP that depends only on the relative difficulty. So a level-5 party overcoming an EL-5 challenge would earn the same XP as a level-10 party overcoming an EL-10 challenge.


I can't find the link anymore, but someone suggested to give simply 1-3 XP for easy, normal and difficult encounters. Then every X points you collect, the PC levels up. Not sure what he exactly recommended, but if 13.33 encounters are needed to level up, then this is about 27 XP. Adjust as needed.

Or ditch XP entirely and level up at your own leisure. Did the party defeat enough? Then just allow them to level up.

What I do personally is award 1-4 XP at the end of a session and require 10 xp to level. I think that when working with a published adventure with pre-made encounters, story points would work well, or just writing in "players level up here".


Weapon Focus gives +1, +1/5 Fighter levels.

The concern I would have about this is that on one hand, it makes the feat very bad unless you're taking a lot of fighter levels, but on the other it doesn't provide sufficient incentive to take those fighter levels. YMMV.


The trouble in 3.5 is that XP is used for other things, necessitating a running tally.

I've just replaced XP costs with gp at the standard rate of 1 xp = 5 xp. Specific spells (e.g. Alter Fortune) would have specific components (e.g. a ruby worth 1000 gp), while spells like Permanency would be more flexible.

[Psyren]

I've just replaced XP costs with gp at the standard rate of 1 xp = 5 xp. Specific spells (e.g. Alter Fortune) would have specific components (e.g. a ruby worth 1000 gp), while spells like Permanency would be more flexible.

PF has done this too, although they appear to have waived XP costs under a certain value entirely (e.g. Vision.)