[3.5] Do Chameleons (the PrC, not the type of creature) have spell lists?

[ATHATH]

As the title.

[Lazymancer]

I'd say - no. For all intents and purposes (i.e. prerequisites) they don't have spell-list.


You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.

[Jack_Simth]

As the title.
As far as I am aware: No, but they have UMD as a class skill (as do most of the 'standard' entry routes to the PrC), and that's just a DC 20 check.

[Venger]

they don't (no spell is listed as a chameleon 1 for example) but what are you really asking here? why do you need to know if it has a list?

[ATHATH]

they don't (no spell is listed as a chameleon 1 for example) but what are you really asking here? why do you need to know if it has a list?
To see if I can use the Initiate of Amaunator feat with it.

[Venger]

To see if I can use the Initiate of Amaunator feat with it.

Good.

so as far as initiate of amaunator itself goes, you could enter if you had a cleric or pally level of 4. as far as the taxes go:

chameleon does not have a code of conduct, and the spellcasting it provides from its divine focus explicitly cannot be used to qualify for feats, so again, if you weren't a cleric or pally you cannot for heretic of the faith on chameleon alone

servant of the fallen requires at least a cloistered cleric 1 dip, so once more chameleon itself does not allow you to qualify for it.

how are you entering chameleon?

[ATHATH]

Good.

so as far as initiate of amaunator itself goes, you could enter if you had a cleric or pally level of 4. as far as the taxes go:

chameleon does not have a code of conduct, and the spellcasting it provides from its divine focus explicitly cannot be used to qualify for feats, so again, if you weren't a cleric or pally you cannot for heretic of the faith on chameleon alone

servant of the fallen requires at least a cloistered cleric 1 dip, so once more chameleon itself does not allow you to qualify for it.

how are you entering chameleon?
I'm entering Chameleon with at least 4 (Cloistered) Cleric levels. I want to know if I can use Chameleon spell slots with the Initiate of Amaunator feat's special spontaneous conversion ability.

[Nifft]

I'm entering Chameleon with at least 4 (Cloistered) Cleric levels. I want to know if I can use Chameleon spell slots with the Initiate of Amaunator feat's special spontaneous conversion ability.

Chameleon has no spell list, so I think you're not able to do this.

[gkathellar]

I'm entering Chameleon with at least 4 (Cloistered) Cleric levels. I want to know if I can use Chameleon spell slots with the Initiate of Amaunator feat's special spontaneous conversion ability.

Well, let's take a look at the text:



You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.


Divine Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a cleric does, except that you cannot spontaneously cast spells.

I would say that there are three possible readings:
You can't use your chameleon spell slots for IoA, because chameleon has no spell list. This is plausible.
You can use your chameleon spell slots with IoA, using the cleric spell list, because you have cleric levels. This is ... manipulative, but not strictly silly. It opens up other potential loopholes, though.
You can't use your chameleon spell slots for IoA, because divine focus explicitly forbids spintaneous casting. This is probably not the intended interaction, but holds up as a reading and is not unreasonable.
I think that with respect to "strict" RAW, the third take is the correct one (strict RAW is dumb, however, because it technically gave you three Armor Proficiency bonus feats for being a cleric). In terms of intent, the first or third reading is probably closest to the mark.

Personally, so long as you're not looking to pull any other shenanigans, I'd allow it. I might allow it even if you were, depending on the specifics.

[Venger]

I'm entering Chameleon with at least 4 (Cloistered) Cleric levels. I want to know if I can use Chameleon spell slots with the Initiate of Amaunator feat's special spontaneous conversion ability.
Then you qualify


Well, let's take a look at the text:




I would say that there are three possible readings:
You can't use your chameleon spell slots for IoA, because chameleon has no spell list. This is plausible.
You can use your chameleon spell slots with IoA, using the cleric spell list, because you have cleric levels. This is ... manipulative, but not strictly silly. It opens up other potential loopholes, though.
You can't use your chameleon spell slots for IoA, because divine focus explicitly forbids spintaneous casting. This is probably not the intended interaction, but holds up as a reading and is not unreasonable.
I think that with respect to "strict" RAW, the third take is the correct one (strict RAW is dumb, however, because it technically gave you three Armor Proficiency bonus feats for being a cleric). In terms of intent, the first or third reading is probably closest to the mark.

Personally, so long as you're not looking to pull any other shenanigans, I'd allow it. I might allow it even if you were, depending on the specifics.

Yeah, fire spells will hardly break the game, I'd say go for it.

[Crake]

Chameleon has no spell list, so I think you're not able to do this.

Chameleon definitely has a spell list. It's spell list is: literally every spell available at every level it's available on some other spell list.

To those saying "it uses other spell lists, there is no 'chameleon' spells" I will point you to the favoured soul, or really any other class that has a spell list based on another class. In this case, the chameleon's spell list isn't based on one other class, but rather all other classes.

Now, of course, you can't use it to qualify for anything, as others have said, but if you qualify via some other means, there's nothing stopping you from using feats with chameleon spell slots, in fact, one of my personal favourite tricks with a chameleon is to use your daily floating bonus feat to slowly scribe every spell in the game into your spellbook (which makes it count as a "known" spell), and have versatile spellcaster (qualified for via your first 5 levels in some manner), enabling you to essentially spontaneously cast any arcane spell in the game, as long as you have the spell slots for it (achievable through extra slot and increased spell level metamagic shenannigans).

[Nifft]

Chameleon definitely has a spell list. It's spell list is: literally every spell available at every level it's available on some other spell list.

To those saying "it uses other spell lists, there is no 'chameleon' spells" I will point you to the favoured soul, or really any other class that has a spell list based on another class. In this case, the chameleon's spell list isn't based on one other class, but rather all other classes.

By your (faulty) logic, a Cleric with the Spell Domain has every Sorc/Wiz spell of 5th level and under on her spell list.

That's obviously wrong.


Every character with prepared casting can prepare Corrupt and/or Sanctified spells. Are those spells on your list? NOPE. You can prepare them because of a separate rule, not because some secret mechanism automatically merges all your spell-sources into a new list.

Clerics who have access to Sanctified spells don't add Sanctified spells to their Cleric list.


The ability to prepare a spell does not mean you must add it to a spell list.

Chameleon has no spell list. It has a rule which allows it to prepare spells from other lists. Full stop.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, this question was kind of a long shot. I was pretty firmly in the "no, they don't have spell lists" camp when I made this thread, but figured that it couldn't hurt to check if there was some rule that proved me wrong.

[Deophaun]

By your (faulty) logic, a Cleric with the Spell Domain has every Sorc/Wiz spell of 5th level and under on her spell list.

That's obviously wrong.
Anyspell grants you the Sorc/Wiz list for the Instantaneous duration it lasts. Why is that wrong? How are you going to abuse that beyond what the spell itself specifically says you can do? (I'm really curious)

[Nifft]

Anyspell grants you the Sorc/Wiz list for the Instantaneous duration it lasts. Why is that wrong? How are you going to abuse that beyond what the spell itself specifically says you can do? (I'm really curious)

I'm the wrong person to ask.

I don't think it can be abused in this specific way, because I believe the ability to prepare a spell does not add that spell to a class spell list.

There are a couple of obvious abuse cases if it worked, but again -- I don't think this works, so I don't think there's any viable way to abuse it. You don't worry about doping if it can only happen after the horse is dead.

[Deophaun]

There are a couple of obvious abuse cases if it worked, but again -- I don't think this works, so I don't think there's any viable way to abuse it. You don't worry about doping if it can only happen after the horse is dead.
I worry about it because you're saying that the Favored Soul and the Archivists don't have lists, which seems to be more problematic than giving someone access to the Wiz/Sorc list during the duration of an instantaneous spell.

[Nifft]

I worry about it because you're saying that the Favored Soul and the Archivists don't have lists, which seems to be more problematic than giving someone access to the Wiz/Sorc list during the duration of an instantaneous spell.

Sorcerer doesn't have much of an "own" list. Most of the Sorcerer's spells come from the shared Sorc/Wiz list.

Likewise for Wizards.

This seems to work out fine for them.

Favored Souls don't have a Favored Soul list, but they do have a class list -- the Cleric list is also the Favored Soul's list.

Spirit Shaman has a class list, and it's also the Druid's list.


List-sharing seems normal and unproblematic.

On topic, though, the Chameleon does not do this list-sharing thing.

[Deophaun]

SFavored Souls don't have a Favored Soul list, but they do have a class list -- the Cleric list is also the Favored Soul's list.
...
On topic, though, the Chameleon does not do this list-sharing thing.
It uses the same language! If one does, then so does the other. If one doesn't, then the other doesn't.

[Nifft]

Favored Souls don't have a Favored Soul list


It uses the same language! If one does, then so does the other. If one doesn't, then the other doesn't.

In the sense you seem to be asking about: yes, they are the same. They do not have their own spell list.

There is no Favored Soul spell list. Favored Souls use the Cleric list.

[Deophaun]

In the sense you seem to be asking about: yes, they are the same. They do not have their own spell list.

There is no Favored Soul spell list. Favored Souls use the Cleric list.
Fair enough, but by this, no one has their own spell list. There is a cleric. There is a cleric list. There is an ability that gives the cleric access to the cleric list. But the list exists separate of the class. In the same way, the Chameleon has abilities that give them access to all arcane and divine lists. If you are going to talk of the cleric's list being the cleric list, then you can talk of the chameleon's list being all lists. Or, you can say the chameleon does not have a list, and therefore the cleric, bard, paladin, wizard, sorcerer, ranger, and druids don't have lists. And yet everything works, so whether something has a list or not is irrelevant to anything in the game.

[frogglesmash]

As far as I can tell "spell list" is not an explicitly defined term in d&d, and just refers to the list of spells a given class can draw from. This means that any class that grants spellcasting has its own spell list regardless of whether or not said list is actually printed out.

[Crake]

As far as I can tell "spell list" is not an explicitly defined term in d&d, and just refers to the list of spells a given class can draw from. This means that any class that grants spellcasting has its own spell list regardless of whether or not said list is actually printed out.

Pretty much what i was gonna say, but far more succinct.

[Nifft]

As far as I can tell "spell list" is not an explicitly defined term in d&d, and just refers to the list of spells a given class can draw from. This means that any class that grants spellcasting has its own spell list regardless of whether or not said list is actually printed out.

Nope, the Chameleon explicitly doesn't have one:



Divine Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class.


Chameleon doesn't prepare from one specific list, they prepare from other people's lists. The text references other class spell lists, but does not define a new one.


Favored Soul may be shafted due to not having its own class list. I'm not sure if it is, but it's possible. However, even if Favored Soul is shafted, that does not imply anything about classes with their own spell lists (i.e. the Cleric class and the Cleric spell list).


Spell list isn't defined as a glossary term, but it's used as a technical term in various places:


Divine spellcasters don’t require spellbooks. However, such characters’ spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for their class.



The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.



Class spell list is a thing, but the rabbit hole goes even deeper -- class spell list is a separate thing from character spell list.

[Crake]

Nope, the Chameleon explicitly doesn't have one:



Chameleon doesn't prepare from one specific list, they prepare from other people's lists. The text references other class spell lists, but does not define a new one.


Favored Soul may be shafted due to not having its own class list. I'm not sure if it is, but it's possible. However, even if Favored Soul is shafted, that does not imply anything about classes with their own spell lists (i.e. the Cleric class and the Cleric spell list).


Spell list isn't defined as a glossary term, but it's used as a technical term in various places:




Class spell list is a thing, but the rabbit hole goes even deeper -- class spell list is a separate thing from character spell list.

So just to be certain we're on the same page here: You don't believe a favoured soul or a spirit shaman has a class list either, since they lack their own spell list and draw from the cleric/druid spell list? Even though the list of spells of which their class has access to is very clearly defined. One might even call it a class list?

[Deophaun]

Chameleon doesn't prepare from one specific list, they prepare from other people's lists. The text references other class spell lists, but does not define a new one.
So, if we wanted to make a new class that had it's own list equal to a Bard's, I guess we would have to say something convoluted like "The class X pulls from the class X list, which includes all bard spells" or something similar, instead of just "cast spells drawn from the bard's list?"

Do you have an example of a class that works like that? Otherwise, this argument is silly.

Spell list isn't defined as a glossary term, but it's used as a technical term in various places:
Without a technical definition, it cannot be used as a technical term.

[Nifft]

So just to be certain we're on the same page here: You don't believe a favoured soul or a spirit shaman has a class list either, since they lack their own spell list and draw from the cleric/druid spell list? Even though the list of spells of which their class has access to is very clearly defined. One might even call it a class list? No, that's Deophaun's argument.

In the sense that Deophaun seemed to be using the term, what you're ascribing to me would be correct -- except the part where you ascribe it to me, and I would prefer you to stop doing that.

My argument is: Chameleons don't have a spell list.

Furthermore, I note that class spell list is a thing that exists, and characters may also have a character spell lists which is not the same the character's class spell list.


So, if we wanted to make a new class that had it's own list equal to a Bard's, I guess we would have to say something convoluted like "The class X pulls from the class X list, which includes all bard spells" or something similar, instead of just "cast spells drawn from the bard's list?"

Do you have an example of a class that works like that? Otherwise, this argument is silly. Sorcerers draw primarily from the Sorc/Wiz list. They have a class list which is vaguely defined and is implied to exceed the bounds of the list on the Class List page, which is otherwise a very concrete and specific definition-by-example of what class lists are.


Without a technical definition, it cannot be used as a technical term. Of course it can, and indeed it is.

It's not alone in that regard.

[Crake]

No, that's Deophaun's argument.

In the sense that Deophaun seemed to be using the term, what you're ascribing to me would be correct -- except the part where you ascribe it to me, and I would prefer you to stop doing that.

Those two classes use practically the same terminology in describing what spells they have access to as the chameleon does. If you claim that the chameleon doesn't have a class spell list, then by extension, you must also believe the same.

Notice the "?" at the end of my sentence, indicating it was a question. I wanted to know if you felt the same way about those two classes, because if you did, there would at least be consistency to your logic, and we could agree to disagree (because I would say those classes do have a spell list, and by extension the chameleon does too), but if you believe that the spirit shamana and favoured soul do have a spell list, but that the chameleon does not, then your logic becomes inconsistent. Merely trying to figure out which it is.

[Nifft]

Those two classes use practically the same terminology in describing what spells they have access to as the chameleon does. If you claim that the chameleon doesn't have a class spell list, then by extension, you must also believe the same. Incorrect, and "practically the same" is just a fancy way to say "not the same".

Do you think that two things are the same, if those two things are not the same?


Notice the "?" at the end of my sentence, indicating it was a question. I wanted to know if you felt the same way about those two classes, because if you did, there would at least be consistency to your logic, and we could agree to disagree (because I would say those classes do have a spell list, and by extension the chameleon does too), but if you believe that the spirit shamana and favoured soul do have a spell list, but that the chameleon does not, then your logic becomes inconsistent. Merely trying to figure out which it is. If this was insufficient:

Favored Soul may be shafted due to not having its own class list. I'm not sure if it is, but it's possible.
... then I don't know what to tell you.

Whether Favored Soul is screwed or not isn't my primary concern -- it's a class that has never seen play at my table.

I don't think about them much. Nor do I think about Spirit Shamans much. Again, never actually seen one at my table. They're not highly desirable.

So, mostly what I think is:
- Favored Soul has a spell list specified in its class description, and that list is the Cleric list.
- I think this means the Cleric and Favored Soul share a class spell list.
- Chameleon has no such list.

I suspect that Favored Soul is not disadvantaged by lacking a unique class spell list, but there might be something out there which does screw them over. If so, it's not in evidence in this thread, which has mostly been about me correcting the false assumption that ability to cast a spell == class spell list.

It doesn't, and the Chameleon is pretty clear about that.

[Deophaun]

No, that's Deophaun's argument.
No, that's not my argument. That's your argument, because:


My argument is: Chameleons don't have a spell list.

Incorrect, and "practically the same" is just a fancy way to say "not the same".
They are practically the same because the only part they differ is in which list they reference. That is, they have the same practical effect, just with different targets.

- Favored Soul has a spell list specified in its class description, and that list is the Cleric list.
- I think this means the Cleric and Favored Soul share a class spell list.
- Chameleon has no such list.
These two statements cannot both be true. Thus, you are wrong.

[Nifft]

These two statements cannot both be true. Thus, you are wrong.

I'm correct, as shown above.

Please supply evidence to support your (currently unsupported) claim, or concede.

[death390]

SO the archivist then has no spell list due to its wording.

"An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells spells."

it doesn't draw from a specific list, it draws from all divine classes spell list. it doesn't explicitly state that it draws from the archivist spell list. this of course would mean that in your interpretation all these casters who have "no spell list" cannot use wands of the spells they have available to cast or even staves without Use Magic Device.

i find this interpretation extremely silly.

[Nifft]

SO the archivist then has no spell list due to its wording.

"An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells spells."

it doesn't draw from a specific list, it draws from all divine classes spell list. it doesn't explicitly state that it draws from the archivist spell list. this of course would mean that in your interpretation all these casters who have "no spell list" cannot use wands of the spells they have available to cast or even staves without Use Magic Device.

i find this interpretation extremely silly.

Archivists have spellcasting as a class feature.

Chameleons have Aptitude Focus as a class feature.

Chameleons are different.

[Deophaun]

Archivists have spellcasting as a class feature.

Chameleons have Aptitude Focus as a class feature.

Chameleons are different.
So, the sum of the argument is "they're named different."

Peak silliness achieved.

[Nifft]

So, the sum of the argument is "they're named different."

Peak silliness achieved.

If you're here to discuss in good faith, then read the thread.

I'm not required to repeat every argument I've made in every single post.

[Deophaun]

I'm not required to repeat every argument I've made in every single post.
No, but you may be well served in going back and making them sound, because at this point the only thing your entire argument hinges upon is that the ability which give a Chameleon its spellcasting is named differently than the ability that gives an Archivist its spellcasting.

And then some jerk is going to point out that the Archivist's "Spellcasting" ability is named differently than the Wizard's or Cleric's "Spells" ability and even that fig-leaf is going to blow away.

[Nifft]

No, but you may be well served in going back and making them sound, because at this point the only thing your entire argument hinges upon is that the ability which give a Chameleon its spellcasting is named differently than the ability that gives an Archivist its spellcasting.

And then some jerk is going to point out that the Archivist's "Spellcasting" ability is named differently than the Wizard's or Cleric's "Spells" ability and even that fig-leaf is going to blow away.

Archivists are incredibly powerful already. Removing their ability to use wands without UMD wouldn't make the class terrible, so if a DM were to rule that way, it would not be that bad.


My take on Archivists is that they are like Sorcerers: they have a primary class spell list (Sorc/Wiz for Sorcerers; Cleric for Archivists) to which an individual Archivist can add spells using the class's rules.

I'd allow an Archivist to use any Cleric spell-trigger item. I would not allow an Archivist to use a Paladin-only spell item unless that specific Archivist had spent the resources to learn that specific Paladin-only spell.

Same deal for Domain spells: they're not on the Cleric list, and Clerics don't automatically know all of them. They're on a Domain list, and you need a separate mechanism to access them.

Some Domain spells are not on any class spell list.


Also, you're targeting your ad hominem attacks incorrectly: it's got nothing to do with the name of the feature, it has to do with the distinct mechanics, and the text as discussed previously -- if you don't understand then quote the part you need explained.

[Crake]

I'm correct, as shown above.

Please supply evidence to support your (currently unsupported) claim, or concede.

Sure, here we go:


Incorrect, and "practically the same" is just a fancy way to say "not the same".

Do you think that two things are the same, if those two things are not the same?

Practically means that despite the wording differences they are logically arrive to the same point. You'll find that in dnd 3.5 even abilities that are literally the same thing just printed in different books for different classes have different wording, but are, as with the chameleon and the spirit shaman/favoured soul, practically the same.

Perhaps I should quote the two?


You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class.


A favored soul casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics), which are drawn from the cleric spell list.

Now, don't get me wrong, if you think both these classes lack a spell list because of the way their abilities are written, go right ahead. My problem comes in here:


- Favored Soul has a spell list specified in its class description, and that list is the Cleric list.
- I think this means the Cleric and Favored Soul share a class spell list.
- Chameleon has no such list.

If the cleric and favoured soul share a class spell list, then logically, the chameleon shares a spell list with all divine spellcasters. Hence:


These two statements cannot both be true. Thus, you are wrong.

[frogglesmash]

Archivists have spellcasting as a class feature.

Chameleons have Aptitude Focus as a class feature.

Chameleons are different.

Aptitude grants focus "the ability to prepare and cast arcane/divine spells," the chameleon "prepares and casts these spells just as a wizard/cleric does." This means that it is identical to wizard/cleric spell casting in all ways except those specified.

Now on to the spell lists.
Chameleons can cast spells "which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane/divine casting class. The favoured soul casts spells "which are drawn from the cleric spell list." the only real differences between these two statements is the number of spell lists which can be drawn from, therefore anything that is true of the favoured soul's relation to spell lists is also true of the chameleons relation to spell lists.

If we are to argue that the chameleon and the favoured soul do not have a spell list then no class does as they all use the same language to indicate which spell list they draw from, instead spell lists are are not intrinsically associated with any class, and spell casting classes merely reference them. this is further supported by the existence of the sorcerer/wizard spell list, a spell list that would either belong to both classes (something you don't seem to think is possible), or neither class. The only problem is that if we assume that no class actually "owns" their spell list, then the aptitude focus ability does not function, since the ability clearly indicates that it draws from spell lists that belong to other classes.
If we consider the aggregate of all the spell lists a class has available to it to be said classes spell list, we do not have this problem.

[Nifft]

Now, don't get me wrong, if you think both these classes lack a spell list because of the way their abilities are written, go right ahead. As I said before, I think it's possible that Favored Soul is also lacking a spell list. It's not how I would play it, but it's never been attempted at my table.


If the cleric and favoured soul share a class spell list, then logically, the chameleon shares a spell list with all divine spellcasters. Hence:

Incorrect.

Favored Soul has the ability to cast spells as a class feature, with all the benefits that spellcasting entails. You can use that spellcasting to qualify for benefits, like using spell trigger items.

Chameleons don't have that sort of spellcasting. They have a different feature, which is explicitly prohibited from qualifying for anything -- that means the Chameleon does not gain the normal granted benefits beyond what is explicitly listed, and what is listed is preparing spells from the lists of other classes.

Here's the text for that:


You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.


Chameleons are a great class even if you don't give them free bogus omni-casting.

Hell, they get UMD. Let them use it.



Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.
Divine Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class.


Chameleons prepare and cast spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any other class.

They don't need to have their own spell list in order to cast these spells.

There is no spell list defined by the rules.

This is all the rules say.

[Nifft]

If we consider the aggregate of all the spell lists a class has available to it to be said classes spell list, we do not have this problem.
You want the Cleric Spell List to be the union of all spells that any Cleric can cast?

That brings on different problems.

For example: a Cleric with the Fire Domain can cast spells which don't appear on the Cleric list. Do you think this means that all Clerics can now cast those spells?


Another example:


Initiate of Aasterinian

Benefit

Add Bluff, Disguise, Speak Language, and Sleight of Hand to your list of cleric, class skills.
If you are a spellscale (see Races of the Dragon), you also gain a +2 competence bonus on Bluff, Disguise, and Sleight of Hand checks.
In addition, you add the following spells to your cleric spell list.
- 1st Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.
- 2nd Soul of Anarchy: You gain +5 on Escape Artist checks and grapple checks to avoid being grappled, your natural weapons are chaotic, and you are treated as being chaotic for adjudicating effects.
- 4th Invisibility, Greater: As invisibility, but subject can attack and stay invisible.
- 6th Shadow Walk: Step into shadow to travel rapidly.


If one Cleric takes this feat, are those spells added to ~every~ Cleric's spell list?


Third example: if a Cleric prepares a Sanctified spell, are all Sanctified spells added to the Cleric spell list?


What you're missing is that a Cleric PC has both a class list, and also other mechanics for spellcasting, an the other mechanics are not required to be the same as the class spell list. Don't conflate the ability to cast a spell with the necessity of that spell being on your class list. There are many different mechanisms in D&D.

[frogglesmash]

You want the Cleric Spell List to be the union of all spells that any Cleric can cast?

That brings on different problems.

For example: a Cleric with the Fire Domain can cast spells which don't appear on the Cleric list. Do you think this means that all Clerics can now cast those spells?


Another example:


If one Cleric takes this feat, are those spells added to ~every~ Cleric's spell list?


Third example: if a Cleric prepares a Sanctified spell, are all Sanctified spells added to the Cleric spell list?


What you're missing is that a Cleric PC has both a class list, and also other mechanics for spellcasting, an the other mechanics are not required to be the same as the class spell list. Don't conflate the ability to cast a spell with the necessity of that spell being on your class list. There are many different mechanisms in D&D.

I mean, the feat clearly states that you add the spells to your cleric spell list, and not the cleric spell list.

[Nifft]

I mean, the feat clearly states that you add the spells to your cleric spell list, and not the cleric spell list.

Yep, so there's probably a separate concept of character spell list.

"Character spell list" is not defined in any glossary, but it is implied strongly and clearly by the rules.

[frogglesmash]

Yep, so there's probably a separate concept of character spell list.

"Character spell list" is not defined in any glossary, but it is implied strongly and clearly by the rules.

Based on all that's been said, I think the best interpretation is that spell lists aren't actually attached to classes, and that the chameleon is somewhat poorly worded.

[Nifft]

Based on all that's been said, I think the best interpretation is that spell lists aren't actually attached to classes, and that the chameleon is somewhat poorly worded.

If spell lists aren't attached to classes, then a lot of the system falls apart.

For example, you can't use a magic wand for a spell on your class spell list if you don't have a spell list attached to any of your classes.

Chameleons can't cast spells at all if no other class has a spell list:


Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.
Divine Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class.

... since they draw purely and specifically from the spell lists of other classes. If there is no such thing, then the Chameleon is screwed. I dislike that idea.


AFAICT, there are three options:
A - Chameleons have no spell list. They must UMD all magic items unless they have levels in another class which does have a spell list.
B - Chameleons with Arcane Focus active behave as if they have have the Wizard spell list while focused. Chameleons with Divine Focus active behave as if they have the Cleric spell list while focused.
C - Chameleons have only the spells they prepared as their "spell list". These are the spells they can cast, after all. This is their current "character spell list".

[thelastorphan]

Option B seems the closest to intended in my opinion. It makes the most sense given all the shared language among classes that draw from other lists.

[Nifft]

Option B seems the closest to intended in my opinion. It makes the most sense given all the shared language among classes that draw from other lists.

It's still the case that Chameleon doesn't have a spell list, it's just that the Aptitude Focus language makes two Aptitudes behave as if you did have a spell list for their duration.

So it's consistent with the behavior that the critics wish to see, but it's also consistent with the truth that Chameleon has no class spell list.

Have we achieved world peace?