Raising someone who died (not from old age) thousands of years ago.

[Yogibear41]

All of the raise dead/Resurrection spells bring creatures back to life who have only been dead for X number of years/days based on caster level.

But say I have a character who had someone special to him killed, and then later for various reasons he ended up thousands of years in the future.

Is there anyway he can bring his loved one back in his new current time period?

[Wacky89]

epic spell or CL 100+ true ress

[Captn_Flounder]

I don't think so, by RAW, but you could always use an incantation. Just be warned, the penalty for failure will probably be an irreversible death.

[ryu]

In 3.5? Teleport through time, res, and go back. simple.

[Zanos]

As always, necromancy succeeds where silly healing magic fails. There's no time limit on turning your loved ones into fully sentient corpse/bone creatures!

Aside from that I think you'd be looking for a niche spell that simply forgot this text. Even the epic life seeds adds +1 to spell DC for every ten years, so you're already looking at DC of hundreds.

[Yogibear41]

Guess I better start looking for ways to travel back in time. :smallfrown:

or see if I can have some kind of DM fiat reincarnation

[Psyren]

But say I have a character who had someone special to him killed, and then later for various reasons he ended up thousands of years in the future.

That person has probably long ago been absorbed into an afterlife of some kind. Your first step (assuming you can't go back in time as ryu suggested) should be to find out if they even want to come back.

Assuming you're evil or don't care, your next best bet is to make them undead. It likely wouldn't actually be your loved one, rather a negative energy spirit with all their memories, but those are cooler anyway.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

XP cost mitigation + psionic revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm) would do it. The power's XP cost is the only thing that disallows most manifesters from raising creatures that died more than a few minutes in the past, but that's only prohibitive if you actually have to pay the XP cost.

[Lazymancer]

CL 100+ true ress
This. You'll have to juggle Consumptive Fields, use Circle Magic, and/or a lot of ioun stones to get there, but it should be doable before level 20.

[InvisibleBison]

The gift of life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) and life and death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath) salient divine abilities can bring someone back to life regardless of how long they've been dead. It might be easier to earn a favor from a deity with one of these abilities than to boost your caster level enough to be able to raise the person yourself.

[ShurikVch]

Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) + Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) (or Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)) will do it

Also, since [epic] stuff was mentioned, there are Gift of Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) or Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath).



XP cost mitigation + psionic revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm) would do it. The power's XP cost is the only thing that disallows most manifesters from raising creatures that died more than a few minutes in the past, but that's only prohibitive if you actually have to pay the XP cost.There's a problem:
This power functions like the raise dead spell, except that the affected creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of powers.
You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level.
Even the H.I.V.E. (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ru/2011/12/hive.html) would be able to pull just slightly above 15 years, not "thousands"...
(But the H.I.V.E. (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ru/2011/12/hive.html) with True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) may do it - depending on exact number of years)

[Psyren]

Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) + Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) (or Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)) will do it

Can it? Reincarnate says:


With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a problem:Except psionic revivify also has:


Augment: For every 100 additional experience points that both you and the subject pay, the manifestation of this power can be delayed by 1 additional round....which explicitly overrides any limits that raise dead has.

[ShurikVch]

Can it? Reincarnate says::smalleek: Somehow, I'm completely missed it.
I'm sorry!



Except psionic revivify also has:

...which explicitly overrides any limits that raise dead has.Why you think it's override rather than add?
It says: " ... like the raise dead spell, except that the affected creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of powers."
I don't see somethig like "changed time limit" in the list of exceptions.
Thus, you will need to psionic revivify somebody within 1 round of the victim’s death (or +1 round for every 100 XP), but no longer than one day per caster level.
Which is sound rather funny, considering the whole 20th-level XP would be spent in 3 hours and 10 minutes :smallamused: (Also, Psion likely wouldn't have any CL, so how we should calculate it?)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why you think it's override rather than add?
It says: " ... like the raise dead spell, except that the affected creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of powers."
I don't see somethig like "changed time limit" in the list of exceptions.
Thus, you will need to psionic revivify somebody within 1 round of the victim’s death (or +1 round for every 100 XP), but no longer than one day per caster level.
Which is sound rather funny, considering the whole 20th-level XP would be spent in 3 hours and 10 minutes :smallamused: (Also, Psion likely wouldn't have any CL, so how we should calculate it?)It functions like raise dead, except for what's outlined in the power itself, which is, perforce, overriding the normal limits of raise dead. And there's no limitation placed on the power's augmentation option; if you continue augmenting it, you continue accruing the benefit, and unlike with the ML cap, there is nothing capping how many times you can augment the power if there's no pp expenditure involved.

[ShurikVch]

It functions like raise dead, except for what's outlined in the power itself, which is, perforce, overriding the normal limits of raise dead.Which is still need to be proved...

And there's no limitation placed on the power's augmentation option; if you continue augmenting it, you continue accruing the benefit, and unlike with the ML cap, there is nothing capping how many times you can augment the power if there's no pp expenditure involved.Except
You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare.Agony/Ambrosia and other similar mitigation methods are all mage-oriented, thus psionics are out of luck there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Which is still need to be proved...Anything under the power description must override anything in the original spell's description, else why is it there? Fairly simple deductive reasoning.


ExceptAgony/Ambrosia and other similar mitigation methods are all mage-oriented, thus psionics are out of luck there.Hence XP cost mitigation. For instance, converting your psionic manifesting to a Supernatural ability negates any XP costs you might have for your powers. The same goes for, say, using a friendly genie's three wishes to emulate psionic revivify to allow you to bypass the XP cost as well.

[Mjr Lee Fat]

As always, necromancy succeeds where silly healing magic fails. There's no time limit on turning your loved ones into fully sentient corpse/bone creatures!



Bone creatures......if you know what I mean...:smallwink:

[ryu]

Guess I better start looking for ways to travel back in time. :smallfrown:

or see if I can have some kind of DM fiat reincarnation

Just gonna point out that teleport through time is a real 8th level wizard spell that should hopefully still be easily findable with google. That was a step by step plan where the only thing you needed but didn't already know was called out by name.

[unseenmage]

Just gonna point out that teleport through time is a real 8th level wizard spell that should hopefully still be easily findable with google. That was a step by step plan where the only thing you needed but didn't already know was called out by name.

Seconding Teleport Through Time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b).

Also, Simulacrum could do in a pinch. At the very least it could keep you company while you amass the magical might necessary for the main task.

EDIT
There's also the Create Time Portal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030416b)epic feat to just make a timehole to your liking.

[Psyren]

Except psionic revivify also has:

...which explicitly overrides any limits that raise dead has.

I'm actually not sure it does. Augmenting by a great many rounds will still be less than the cap of 1 day/CL.



Also, Simulacrum could do in a pinch. At the very least it could keep you company while you amass the magical might necessary for the main task.


Actually this is a hilarious idea. Why crack open the heavens when you can just replicate your wife?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm actually not sure it does. Augmenting by a great many rounds will still be less than the cap of 1 day/CL.Is one quadrillion four hundred million thirty-two rounds less than 1 day/CL? I'd say typically not -- not unless your caster level is truly prodigious, anyway.


Actually this is a hilarious idea. Why crack open the heavens when you can just replicate your wife?"Mom, why do you never seem to age?"

"Oh, your father won't let me."

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/teamfourstar/images/8/84/Mrs.BriefS.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624045147

[unseenmage]

...

"Mom, why do you never seem to age?"

"Oh, your father won't let me."

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/teamfourstar/images/8/84/Mrs.BriefS.png/revision/latest?cb=20130624045147

1) Love me some DBZAbridged

2) By the most bare bones reading Sims age. And eat and sleep and reproduce etc. They're real living things with the appropriate creature type and everything. Heck they even heal normally since relevant line in the spell is additive and not exclusitory.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

1) Love me some DBZAbridgedMe too.


2) By the most bare bones reading Sims age. And eat and sleep and reproduce etc. They're real living things with the appropriate creature type and everything. Heck they even heal normally since relevant line in the spell is additive and not exclusitory.That's why Dr. Brief recycled the old one and brought in a new one. Possibly with memory transfer.

Can't have a replacement ball and chain without her knowing that she should bring some beer with his sandwiches, after all.

[Psyren]

Is one quadrillion four hundred million thirty-two rounds less than 1 day/CL? I'd say typically not -- not unless your caster level is truly prodigious, anyway.

Uh, yeah? Not seeing your point.

Also, did you miss the part where your target needs to spend the same amount of XP you do?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Uh, yeah? Not seeing your point.

Also, did you miss the part where your target needs to spend the same amount of XP you do?If your manifestation is Supernatural, say (however that may be instigated), then neither of you has to spend any XP to get the full benefits. You augment enough to go back however much you want, and you end up spending 0 XP for it. Since the target also has to spend 0 XP for it, I'm not seeing a problem.

[Psyren]

If your manifestation is Supernatural, say (however that may be instigated), then neither of you has to spend any XP to get the full benefits. You augment enough to go back however much you want, and you end up spending 0 XP for it. Since the target also has to spend 0 XP for it, I'm not seeing a problem.

This gets into the question of whether you can pay an augment you've removed entirely. I would rule no.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This gets into the question of whether you can pay an augment you've removed entirely. I would rule no.Can you use a Supernatural Ability that casts a spell that requires XP if you don't spend that XP because Supernatural Abilities never require XP? If not, how do zodars manage it?

[edit] And if you say it's not the same at all, you should recall that wish requires larger amounts of XP for larger effects, but nothing in the zodar's description forbids more expensive wish (Su) spells. One would think that there would be made mention of the fact if such were actually a problem.

[Psyren]

Can you use a Supernatural Ability that casts a spell that requires XP if you don't spend that XP because Supernatural Abilities never require XP? If not, how do zodars manage it?

That's not an augment though. Psionic Revivify says:


Augment
For every 100 additional experience points that both you and the subject pay, the manifestation of this power can be delayed by 1 additional round.

If you're paying zero, you get zero.

[Feantar]

...I'm obviously missing something here, but wouldn't a clone spell work?

[ryu]

...I'm obviously missing something here, but wouldn't a clone spell work?

Doesn't the spell clone need to be cast while the thing is alive so that the soul will transfer upon death of original body?

[Rizban]

Clone is a good option. You just need a cubic centimeter of flesh that hasn't rotted.

[Psyren]

Doesn't the spell clone need to be cast while the thing is alive so that the soul will transfer upon death of original body?

No, it can be cast both before and after. (If you cast it before the subject dies, the inert clone must be preserved, but both will work usually.)


...I'm obviously missing something here, but wouldn't a clone spell work?

That depends on how your GM interprets "free and willing to return." The willing part is easy to determine, but a soul that has been in the afterlife for thousands of years may not be "free."

[unseenmage]

...

That depends on how your GM interprets "free and willing to return." The willing part is easy to determine, but a soul that has been in the afterlife for thousands of years may not be "free."


Would the transport use of Wish work to "free" them?

[ryu]

Clone is a good option. You just need a cubic centimeter of flesh that hasn't rotted.

If it doesn't have any listed cost and it's not a focus you have it in the spell component pouch.

[Psyren]

Would the transport use of Wish work to "free" them?

That depends on whether they're still "creatures" after thousands of years in the afterlife. Complete Divine:


Become One with The Plane: The vast majority of souls in the afterlife silently experience their final destination, whether it's a place of great beauty such as Elysium or a place of mad cruelty such as The Abyss. As time passes, they become more like the plane, taking on its qualities and caring less about their time among the living. At some point they cease to have an independent existence and become one with the fabric of the plane itself. Essentially, souls eventually become abstract quanta of the good, evil, law, chaos, or neutrality they lived with when alive.

This process is why every rich individual in the D&D world doesn't come back from the dead repeatedly. Whether they're good or evil, most souls find resonance in the afterlife-they have a sense that they are where they're supposed to be. Only souls with strong force of personality
and unfinished business among the living (which includes many adventuring PCs) respond to the call of a raise dead or resurrection spell.

The time frame for this process is not given, so it's up to the DM to decide. Thousands of years could certainly qualify. If it's too late, they become "quanta" of their respective planes and merge with them, and there is then no Traveler left to Transport.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can always plane shift to the specific afterlife in question, knock out the prospective target, and then cast true resurrection or wish or clone or whatever.

Unconscious creatures are always considered willing, after all.

"Unconscious, you say? Why was I out for so long?"

"You...uh...fell down some stairs? A very, very long flight."

[Psyren]

You can always plane shift to the specific afterlife in question, knock out the prospective target, and then cast true resurrection or wish or clone or whatever.

Unconscious creatures are always considered willing, after all.

"Unconscious, you say? Why was I out for so long?"

"You...uh...fell down some stairs? A very, very long flight."

As mentioned previously, this depends on your target still existing as a creature in the first place.

Even if they do, Plane Shifting to the afterlife is not that simple (MotP 11). PS brings you to the entrance and no farther, e.g. you cannot Plane shift to the Platinum Heaven in Celestia, you can only go to the first layer. You must then be admitted by the rulers of that plane normally.

Gate can get you straight to wherever they might be (again, assuming they exist), but the deity living there can simply stop your gate from opening.

[Nifft]

You can always plane shift to the specific afterlife in question, knock out the prospective target, and then cast true resurrection or wish or clone or whatever.

Unconscious creatures are always considered willing, after all.

"Unconscious, you say? Why was I out for so long?"

"You...uh...fell down some stairs? A very, very long flight."

"I pushed you down a stairway to heaven." -- I suddenly need to build a campaign around this line.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As mentioned previously, this depends on your target still existing as a creature in the first place.

Even if they do, Plane Shifting to the afterlife is not that simple (MotP 11). PS brings you to the entrance and no farther, e.g. you cannot Plane shift to the Platinum Heaven in Celestia, you can only go to the first layer. You must then be admitted by the rulers of that plane normally.

Gate can get you straight to wherever they might be (again, assuming they exist), but the deity living there can simply stop your gate from opening.Assuming the soul doesn't exist anymore, wish can fix it, though miracle would be cheaper, I think. But assuming it is still around, there's always a Merciful Spell'd love's pain. Hit the soul with that indirectly, then bring it back to life once it's passed out.

It's both fitting and ironic, once you stop to think about it a bit.

...I wonder if something like this is what happened to Buffy Summers.

[Psyren]

Assuming the soul doesn't exist anymore, wish can fix it,

How do you figure?

[Rizban]

How do you figure?
Because wish can do anything your DM allows.... I guess?

[Psyren]

Because wish can do anything your DM allows.... I guess?

Indeed it can, but we generally don't consider unsafe wishes in RAW discussions.

[Nifft]

Indeed it can, but we generally don't consider unsafe wishes in RAW discussions.

Participating in unsafe wish might mean your target returns to life... pregnant.

[Psyren]

Participating in unsafe wish might mean your target returns to life... pregnant.

Would... would that be partial, or undesirable?

[Nifft]

Would... would that be partial, or undesirable?

Most children are only partially from a specific parent ("this child is only partially composed of the spell's intended target").

Some people are quite partial to their children.

Some people claim that children are undesirable.

Most people feel no desire with regard to children.


So, why not both?

[mistermysterio]

If it's Pathfinder, or you can use Pathfinder stuff, a high level witch with access to a grand hex might be able to help if they took Death Interrupted.


A witch with this grand hex can pluck a dead creature’s soul from the River of Souls and store it in her familiar for safekeeping and eventual resurrection. In order to use this ability, the witch must be adjacent to the target dead creature and her own familiar, and the ally’s soul must be free and willing to return at the witch’s behest. When the witch touches the creature’s remains (some small portion of the creature’s body must still exist, and it may have been dead for any amount of time), its soul enters the body of the witch’s familiar as per familiar melding, as if the witch’s familiar were the target’s familiar. The creature’s soul can remain within the witch’s familiar for up to 1 hour per class level the witch has. During this time, the witch can telepathically communicate with the creature’s soul (though the soul cannot do anything else), and the witch can return the ally to life. Doing so is a standard action that returns the creature’s soul to its body, brings it back to life with a number of hit points equal to 5d8 + 1 hit point per the witch’s caster level. The witch must be within 300 feet of the creature’s body to return it to life. If a creature’s soul is in the witch’s familiar and this effect expires, or if the witch attempts to return the creature to life but is out of range, the creature remains dead. Once a creature has benefited from this hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

As long as you have some part of the target's body, your familiar handy, and the soul of your target wants to come back, it should work. It's from Healer's Handbook, which is a Paizo product.

[Psyren]

Most children are only partially from a specific parent ("this child is only partially composed of the spell's intended target").

Some people are quite partial to their children.

Some people claim that children are undesirable.

Most people feel no desire with regard to children.


So, why not both?

Sure, why not.


If it's Pathfinder, or you can use Pathfinder stuff, a high level witch with access to a grand hex might be able to help if they took Death Interrupted.



As long as you have some part of the target's body, your familiar handy, and the soul of your target wants to come back, it should work. It's from Healer's Handbook, which is a Paizo product.

The "free and willing to return" clause applies to that too though (the sentence right before your bolded one.) The "any amount of time" only applies so long as they are "free" (i.e. haven't been absorbed yet.)

[zergling.exe]

The "free and willing to return" clause applies to that too though (the sentence right before your bolded one.) The "any amount of time" only applies so long as they are "free" (i.e. haven't been absorbed yet.)

There's also the bit that that hex can only target souls in the River of Souls. So if they are in any other afterlife it doesn't work. Though my knowledge of Golarion is weak. Is the River of Souls it's own afterlife?

[Psyren]

River of Souls is where the dead go initially; it leads to the Boneyard, where they get judged and sorted. This ability doesn't actually reach into the afterlife at all (i.e. the final resting place), but rather lets you grab souls that haven't gotten to the head of the line yet - and like an IRL court system, your date can vary significantly. It's fairly safe to assume however that thousands of years after death is plenty of time for your number to have been called.

Basically, the main takeaway from this thread is that there are plenty of ways to retrieve souls, but the vast time period given in the premise is the biggest problem here.

[Rizban]

River of Souls is where the dead go initially; it leads to the Boneyard, where they get judged and sorted. This ability doesn't actually reach into the afterlife at all (i.e. the final resting place), but rather lets you grab souls that haven't gotten to the head of the line yet - and like an IRL court system, your date can vary significantly. It's fairly safe to assume however that thousands of years after death is plenty of time for your number to have been called.

Basically, the main takeaway from this thread is that there are plenty of ways to retrieve souls, but the vast time period given in the premise is the biggest problem here.River of Souls? Court sytem? Waiting in line for Final Judgement? That sounds really familiar.

New plan: Find a way to beat up King Yemma. Problem solved.


Mahogany.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How do you figure?Wish can bring outsiders back to life, as it can recreate a destroyed soul (see barghests, etc), and is one of the few ways to do so. So use wish to recreate the dissolutioned/destroyed soul and do whatever you need to after that.

Note that non-undead deceased souls are generally petitioners or other types of outsider, and that outsiders do not die from old age unless their description says otherwise. Most any outsider that has died did so via violence or something similar, as they cannot die from aging, and thus should be acceptable targets for rezzing.

[Psyren]

Wish can bring outsiders back to life, as it can recreate a destroyed soul (see barghests, etc), and is one of the few ways to do so. So use wish to recreate the dissolutioned/destroyed soul and do whatever you need to after that.

Not at all. Barghest only eats a part of the soul and even that portion leaves Wish with a 50% outright failure chance. Full dissolution/destruction therefore would be irreversible.



Note that non-undead deceased souls are generally petitioners or other types of outsider, and that outsiders do not die from old age unless their description says otherwise. Most any outsider that has died did so via violence or something similar, as they cannot die from aging, and thus should be acceptable targets for rezzing.

If you wait till it becomes a Petitioner you're even more screwed. Complete Divine:


Characters who have been granted new bodies as petitioners can't come back from the dead, because the creation of a petitioner effectively returned them to life. They're new creatures with at least some memories - but none of the abilities or skills - from their former lives.

[VoxRationis]

Does he have access to the body, and would it have been interred in a fashion which would allow for preservation? Failing that, would a spell like mending or its higher-level brethren "repair" ashes or decomposed material into corpse form?

[Psyren]

Does he have access to the body, and would it have been interred in a fashion which would allow for preservation? Failing that, would a spell like mending or its higher-level brethren "repair" ashes or decomposed material into corpse form?

Access to the body shouldn't be an issue - heck, Wish can explicitly restore a body from nothing at all.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, wish or pao a fresh body, clone to return to life.

[Nifft]

Yeah, wish or pao a fresh body, clone to return to life.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm



To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months.


I think that the requirement to gather the component from the creature's living body precludes "fresh-yet-very-dead".

[VoxRationis]

It lives if a soul inhabits it, right? So magic jar the corpse, collect a sample, and clone from that.

[Psyren]

It lives if a soul inhabits it, right? So magic jar the corpse, collect a sample, and clone from that.

Depends on how you' GM defines "the original creature's living body." If that means "body that is living now that belonged to the creature at some point in the past" then this will do. If it means "body that is living because the original creature is in it" that won't work.

[Fouredged Sword]

If it requires A soul, magic jar. If it requires a heartbeat, pao it to life and kill it again.

If it requires the creature's soul, perhaps reset the death timer by bringing them back as undead, awaken the undead to return the soul, cast a spell the expressly kills the target (use humanoid essense spell to bypass undead immunities) then revive tbe freshly killed body.

Or raise as undead, awaken, then pao into non-undead before you kill and revive.

[Psyren]

If it requires A soul, magic jar. If it requires a heartbeat, pao it to life and kill it again.

What if Clone requires their soul? It can be read that way.



If it requires the creature's soul, perhaps reset the death timer by bringing them back as undead, awaken the undead to return the soul,

Er, what?

[unseenmage]

...


Er, what?

/\ That. What they said.

[Boggartbae]

Er, what?


/\ That. What they said.

Well if the spell doesn't wrench the soul from the afterlife, how else could intelligent undead work? seriously please tell me because I do not know. If a creature's soul is absorbed into the afterlife, can you still reanimate it as a mummy? The whole "negative energy spirit mind control" thing that happened to Durkon isn't RAW as far as I know. What if a lvl 20 good cleric died, and their soul eventually turned into a solar, and then you reanimated them as a huecuva? What happens to the solar? where does the huecuva get that cleric casting from?

[unseenmage]

Well if the spell doesn't wrench the soul from the afterlife, how else could intelligent undead work? seriously please tell me because I do not know. If a creature's soul is absorbed into the afterlife, can you still reanimate it as a mummy? The whole "negative energy spirit mind control" thing that happened to Durkon isn't RAW as far as I know. What if a lvl 20 good cleric died, and their soul eventually turned into a solar, and then you reanimated them as a huecuva? What happens to the solar? where does the huecuva get that cleric casting from?
To my knowledge sentience does not equal soul.

Awaken Sand (Sa), for example, uses strictly magic to give not only sentience but free will to a patch of sand or dust.

Awaken Construct can be used on appropriately shaped and Permanencied Animated Objects and there is zero 'bound elemental spirit' mumbo jumbo to them.

My guess, Awaken spells writ large just use magic to assemble the appropriate energies for sentience.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so I am going at this with as a fluff explanation based on a very rules lawyery reading of the rules. Souls have very little to actually do with resurrections. Some things that lock souls into objects or mangle the soul prevent resurrection, but RAW you can resurrect something without a soul just fine. So long as the creature has the correct creature type and die within the correct time frame you can bring them back.

Basically the idea is you need to reset the point that the creature "died". If they died a long time ago you just need to return them to life just enough so that you can kill them. The first solution to returning a creature to life without reviving them is to animate them as undead.

But then the argument could be made that a generic human skeleton isn't a specific person. You need to take it one step further and return all the class features and skills and other characteristics the creature had. Looking up I was wrong. Awaken undead can't do this. What you need is to animate the creature as a bone creature to create an undead with all the skills and abilities of the original.

Now, killing it. Undead normally cannot be killed. They are instead destroyed when their HP hits 0. Destroyed things cannot be revived. That means you are going to need to change the creature type to humanoid for a bit. The spell polymorph any object should work. Once human the target can be killed and subject to a resurrection spell to return them to life with a new body that is not able to be altered when PAO is dispelled or end in duration.

This creates a creature with all the skills and class features of the base creature in a body without the undead type. Bone creature is expressly a template applied to the base creature, meaning that it IS that creature. It is a template that can be applied post mortem without a time limit. There are plenty of holes big enough to drive a truck through if your DM decides to mess with you, but this is about as close to RAW a way to return a really old creature to life as I can find.

[unseenmage]

Ok, so I am going at this with as a fluff explanation based on a very rules lawyery reading of the rules. ...
... There are plenty of holes big enough to drive a truck through if your DM decides to mess with you, but this is about as close to RAW a way to return a really old creature to life as I can find.
At that point one would almost prefer a Simulacrum of the loved one. It would be a copy, sure, but at least it'd be a clean copy!

[Psyren]

Well if the spell doesn't wrench the soul from the afterlife, how else could intelligent undead work? seriously please tell me because I do not know. If a creature's soul is absorbed into the afterlife, can you still reanimate it as a mummy? The whole "negative energy spirit mind control" thing that happened to Durkon isn't RAW as far as I know.

Actually it is RAW. Giant was using the rules from Complete Divine pg. 126.

But Durkon's situation is specific to undead that make spawn from their victims. Reanimating a millennia-long dead corpse into a mummy is not going to yank their soul out of the afterlife.

When you simply create an intelligent undead from a corpse (i.e. not spawn) you're planting a negative energy spirit inside the body. It can easily fool people who don't know that, because it has access to the body's memories, but it is not in fact the original creature at all.



Basically the idea is you need to reset the point that the creature "died". If they died a long time ago you just need to return them to life just enough so that you can kill them. The first solution to returning a creature to life without reviving them is to animate them as undead.

As above, this won't work unless you turn them into undead at or close to the moment of death, and even then only specific ways will work (i.e. merely turning their body into a skeleton won't stop the clock.) If you wait thousands of years to do it, you've likely missed your shot, and they've passed on to the afterlife.

[Nifft]

At that point one would almost prefer a Simulacrum of the loved one. It would be a copy, sure, but at least it'd be a clean copy!

"That abomination is not my wife! My beloved wife was much dirtier!"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"That abomination is not my wife! My beloved wife was much dirtier!""She died from the family syphilis! It's just not the same without the brain damage."

[Nifft]

"She died from the family syphilis! It's just not the same without the brain damage."

... the family syphilis?

Huh.

I've heard the joke about familial madness -- "You get it from your children" -- but that association only increases my concerns.

[ShurikVch]

If soul of "someone special" turned into Petitioner, then, after the "thousands of years", it could evolve into some kind Celestial or Fiend.
Try to Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) it.

[Boggartbae]

To my knowledge sentience does not equal soul.

Awaken Sand (Sa), for example, uses strictly magic to give not only sentience but free will to a patch of sand or dust.

Awaken Construct can be used on appropriately shaped and Permanencied Animated Objects and there is zero 'bound elemental spirit' mumbo jumbo to them.

My guess, Awaken spells writ large just use magic to assemble the appropriate energies for sentience.

This makes a lot of sense, especially because awaken undead doesn't give all their abilities back, but what about create undead


Actually it is RAW. Giant was using the rules from Complete Divine pg. 126.

But Durkon's situation is specific to undead that make spawn from their victims. Reanimating a millennia-long dead corpse into a mummy is not going to yank their soul out of the afterlife.

When you simply create an intelligent undead from a corpse (i.e. not spawn) you're planting a negative energy spirit inside the body. It can easily fool people who don't know that, because it has access to the body's memories, but it is not in fact the original creature at all.

That page doesn't have all the answers I wanted :smallfrown: Here's the relevant information for souls that become undead in complete divine (bolding mine)

"The souls of characters who die in specific ways sometimes
become undead. Those driven to suicide by madness
become allips, while humanoids destroyed by
absolute evil become bodaks. As with ghosts, the soul
creates a new body, whether it’s incorporeal such as an
allip’s or corporeal such as a bodak’s. The soul is twisted
toward evil if it wasn’t already. The new undead creature
retains some general memories of its former life, but
doesn’t necessarily have the same mental ability scores,
skills, feats, or other abilities. Not every suicide victim
becomes an allip, and not everyone destroyed by absolute
evil becomes a bodak; as with ghosts, the exact nature
of the transformation is unknown. Similarly, liches are
characters who’ve voluntarily transformed themselves
into undead, trapping their souls in skeletal bodies.
• Some undead such as vampires and wights create spawn
out of a character they kill, trapping the soul of the
deceased in a body animated by negative energy and controlled
by a malign intelligence. Sometimes the undead
creature can access the memories of the deceased (vampires,
spectres, ghouls, and ghasts can), and sometimes
they can’t (as with shadows, wights, and wraiths)"

This mentions several times that the soul is what becomes the undead. Granted, this is for "natural undead", but it's still clear that the original soul is what is driving the new undead.

As for spawn, yeah I was wrong about that :smallredface: good to know.

Nowhere does it say what happens when you animate an undead with create greater undead to apply some wicked template. It could work the same as spawn, but you could also "twist their soul towards evil" as with allips. If you could point me towards the answer, I would be very thankful <3

As for the original question, I like making them undead and then PaO back into a human, then killing them, then reviving them.

For a less cheesy approach, you could always find out where the soul went, and then beg for it's return

[Fouredged Sword]

Bone creatures expressly have all the skills and abilities of the base creature.

[Psyren]

That page doesn't have all the answers I wanted :smallfrown: Here's the relevant information for souls that become undead in complete divine (bolding mine)

"The souls of characters who die in specific ways sometimes
become undead. Those driven to suicide by madness
become allips, while humanoids destroyed by
absolute evil become bodaks. As with ghosts, the soul
creates a new body, whether it’s incorporeal such as an
allip’s or corporeal such as a bodak’s. The soul is twisted
toward evil if it wasn’t already. The new undead creature
retains some general memories of its former life, but
doesn’t necessarily have the same mental ability scores,
skills, feats, or other abilities. Not every suicide victim
becomes an allip, and not everyone destroyed by absolute
evil becomes a bodak; as with ghosts, the exact nature
of the transformation is unknown. Similarly, liches are
characters who’ve voluntarily transformed themselves
into undead, trapping their souls in skeletal bodies.
• Some undead such as vampires and wights create spawn
out of a character they kill, trapping the soul of the
deceased in a body animated by negative energy and controlled
by a malign intelligence. Sometimes the undead
creature can access the memories of the deceased (vampires,
spectres, ghouls, and ghasts can), and sometimes
they can’t (as with shadows, wights, and wraiths)"

This mentions several times that the soul is what becomes the undead. Granted, this is for "natural undead", but it's still clear that the original soul is what is driving the new undead.

That passage is for spontaneous animation, at the moment of death. Not for a necromancer who comes along thousands of years later and turns your long-dead body into a Wight.


Nowhere does it say what happens when you animate an undead with create greater undead to apply some wicked template. It could work the same as spawn, but you could also "twist their soul towards evil" as with allips. If you could point me towards the answer, I would be very thankful <3

Sure. This Libris Mortis passage isn't specific to reanimation, but it does have the information you seek:

A sufficiently heinous act may attract the attention of
malicious spirits, bodiless and seeking to house themselves in
flesh, especially recently vacated vessels. Such spirits are often
little more than nodes of unquenchable hunger, wishing only to
feed. These comprise many of the mindless undead. Sometimes
these evil influences also manage to reinvigorate the decaying
memories of the body’s former host. Thus, some semblance of
the original personality and memories remain, though the newly
awakened being is invariably twisted by the inhabiting spirit,
resulting in an evil, twisted, and intelligent creature. However,
this being is not truly inhabited by the spirit of the original
creature, which has left to seek its ultimate destiny in the Outer
Planes. This amalgamation is something entirely new.

So this provides support for the idea that, other than created spawn or specific traps, the original soul is long gone.


For a less cheesy approach, you could always find out where the soul went, and then beg for it's return

This is in fact the only approach for this scenario. Those other spells work the way they do because the soul hasn't fully passed on yet. If it has, you need to get deities involved.

[ryu]

I mean it's not the ONLY approach. We already listed the direct method.

[Psyren]

I mean it's not the ONLY approach. We already listed the direct method.

Right, sorry. Teleport Through Time and Simulacrum work too.

[Boggartbae]

Sure. This Libris Mortis passage isn't specific to reanimation, but it does have the information you seek:

A sufficiently heinous act may attract the attention of
malicious spirits, bodiless and seeking to house themselves in
flesh, especially recently vacated vessels. Such spirits are often
little more than nodes of unquenchable hunger, wishing only to
feed. These comprise many of the mindless undead. Sometimes
these evil influences also manage to reinvigorate the decaying
memories of the body’s former host. Thus, some semblance of
the original personality and memories remain, though the newly
awakened being is invariably twisted by the inhabiting spirit,
resulting in an evil, twisted, and intelligent creature. However,
this being is not truly inhabited by the spirit of the original
creature, which has left to seek its ultimate destiny in the Outer
Planes. This amalgamation is something entirely new.

So this provides support for the idea that, other than created spawn or specific traps, the original soul is long gone.

Thanks for finding that for me. I have a bad habit of ignoring fluff text:smallredface:
Recap:
Spontaneous undead (allips, morgs, banshees): The original soul inhabits and controls the new creature, but is twisted.
Spawned Undead: The original soul is trapped within the new creatures body, but a new negative energy spirit controls it
Created Undead: The original soul is long gone, and a new negative energy spirit controls everything.
Turning yourself undead (liches, necropilitans): you retain your original soul, and it still controls everything.

If the only non-time travel way to get this loved-ones soul back is to ask a god, why would the god ever say yes? doesn't the material plane exist to create souls so that they can be used as the building-blocks of the outer planes? giving up one of those blocks would be a big ask.

[Nifft]

If the only non-time travel way to get this loved-ones soul back is to ask a god, why would the god ever say yes? doesn't the material plane exist to create souls so that they can be used as the building-blocks of the outer planes? giving up one of those blocks would be a big ask.

"Alternately, I could wreck a considerably larger number of your bricks, and probably slay a few minions too. You give me what I want, you don't need to spend another 10k years replacing what I would have broken. We're both happy. It's simple economics."

[ryu]

"Alternately, I could wreck a considerably larger number of your bricks, and probably slay a few minions too. You give me what I want, you don't need to spend another 10k years replacing what I would have broken. We're both happy. It's simple economics."

''Or I could just kill you immediately with my god powers of reality bending for even making that threat and don't lose any bricks. Never threaten people you're beholden to, and especially never give someone with the power to kill anyone at whim initiative and reason to kill you.''

[Psyren]

If the only non-time travel way to get this loved-ones soul back is to ask a god, why would the god ever say yes? doesn't the material plane exist to create souls so that they can be used as the building-blocks of the outer planes? giving up one of those blocks would be a big ask.

The Material Plane doesn't create souls, the Positive Energy Plane does. The various death deities (e.g. Kelemvor, Wee Jas, Pharasma etc.) care about death not as a source of personal power, but as a way to continue the cycle of life and refreshing souls - keeping the universe moving as it were.

As for why they'd approve that request, the simple answer is that it's not that particular soul's time. If they were supposed to be resurrected normally, but then an extraordinary circumstance catapulted the person who was fated to do that (i.e. you) into the far future, all that means is you can't rez them by conventional means. But they would still know if that soul was truly supposed to stay dead or not.

[ShurikVch]

It's looks like a pretext for awesome planar quest to locate and obtain the soul...

[Quertus]

Nice to know that there are good rules for undead and souls these days.

And the Gate suggestion? Could that work?

[Psyren]

Nice to know that there are good rules for undead and souls these days.

And the Gate suggestion? Could that work?

If the soul still exists, Gate can take you right to it. There are two problems though:

(1) Depending on where the soul has ended up in all that time, it could be in a deity's "demesnes" - and thus they can simply keep your gate from opening entirely. For instance, Pharasma's entire Boneyard is her personal domain, so you can't Gate there unless she wants you to; same with Kelemvor and the Fugue.

(2) It's unclear if souls are actually creatures, thus it's unclear how you'd grab them to come back with you. Trap The Soul, for instance, works by targeting the creature before it died. And even if you did get it, you still couldn't raise it, though I suppose you could implant it in something? And I'm not sure how you'd do that either.

[Feantar]

I seem to remember that, in the same book that had the Baatezu pact certain and insidious(Fiendish Codex?) souls got a market price. If they did, and it costs less than 25000 gp, wish can make the soul (as it can make any magic item, and any nonmagic item <= 25000). Not reform it mind you - make a new one as it's a priced item. Yeah, weird interpretation I know.

[Nifft]

''Or I could just kill you immediately with my god powers "Good luck, I'm behind seven simulacrums... and also two custom-researched new variants of astral projection."

Nothing against gods personally -- some of my best friends have PCs who care about gods -- but if you're a PC in D&D, you're not exactly below them.


'Never threaten people you're beholden to Oh, the PC is a Cleric or Paladin? Where is that mentioned in the thread?

I thought this was a Wizard or someone with equally legitimate agency.

If the PC is beholden to the god, then it would be bad RP'ing to threaten the little god into better behavior. Even if the PC would probably win.

[ryu]

"Good luck, I'm behind seven simulacrums... and also two custom-researched new variants of astral projection."

Nothing against gods personally -- some of my best friends have PCs who care about gods -- but if you're a PC in D&D, you're not exactly below them.

Oh, the PC is a Cleric or Paladin? Where is that mentioned in the thread?

I thought this was a Wizard or someone with equally legitimate agency.

If the PC is beholden to the god, then it would be bad RP'ing to threaten the little god into better behavior. Even if the PC would probably win.

I don't think you understand just what gods are capable of using their powers intentionally. For example a rather common power amongst deities is to declare someone dead, and they die, without conventional opportunity for resurrection. For another alter reality is literally wish/miracle with no listed limits nor the possibility of twisted intent. Deities played the way designers imagined them are likely harmless in most cases true. Deities played intelligently are the most dangerous thing in the system debateably short of pun-pun. For this reason EVERYONE is on some level beholden to a minimum of at least one deity.

[Boggartbae]

I'm not sure you can wish a specific soul back into existence. In pathfinder, souls are priced according to this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/daemons/), but I'll post the important part here:

"Unique Soul (priceless): For the truly unique souls—those of legendary figures, epic heroes, and other massive presences—there can be no going price. The unique sparks that live within these creatures are valuable beyond compare, and the frantic bidding (and backstabbing) that arises when one of these trapped spirits comes up for sale is the sort of thing fiends and undead wait thousands of years for, paying nigh-unimaginable prices for the right to consume or display such an artifact."

Now I don't think it was ever stated that this loved one was uber powerful, but the naming of "unique soul" implies that if you want a specific persons soul, it's worth more than 25000 GP. I can't find any rules for soul values from 3.5, other than those from the BoVD, and that book says a soul is only worth 250 gp, which seems rather low, considering you want someone specific.

[unseenmage]

Hmm, makes me wonder if there isn't some way to just go to where souls are made and forge a replacement...

One mundane craft check later and viola, they're a new soul

[Nifft]

I don't think you understand just what gods are capable of Wrong, in fact if you lo--


Deities played the way designers imagined them are likely harmless in most cases true. Bwah?

It's like you're handing me a loaded gun, then you're jumping into a barrel, and finally you're trying to pick a fight.

You apparently do understand that D&D gods by RAW and RAI are not the sharpest fish in the crayon-box.

You apparently agree with me, you're just feeling too tsundere to say it straightforwardly? Okay.


Maybe the rest of your argument is that a TO god would be pretty tough? But that's irrelevant if I'm not using TO gods, and of course I'm not because I'm not running a TO game.

Even with TO gods, though, there's no reason that a non-divine casting PC should be beholden to any god. Perhaps you're playing in a "Mother May I" setting where the gods dictate a railroad plot to the PCs? If so, you have my sympathy. That's not relevant to any of my games, and hopefully not to most people's games. That kind of railroading is very much NOT my preference.

[ryu]

Wrong, in fact if you lo--

Bwah?

It's like you're handing me a loaded gun, then you're jumping into a barrel, and finally you're trying to pick a fight.

You apparently do understand that D&D gods by RAW and RAI are not the sharpest fish in the crayon-box.

You apparently agree with me, you're just feeling too tsundere to say it straightforwardly? Okay.


Maybe the rest of your argument is that a TO god would be pretty tough? But that's irrelevant if I'm not using TO gods, and of course I'm not because I'm not running a TO game.

Even with TO gods, though, there's no reason that a non-divine casting PC should be beholden to any god. Perhaps you're playing in a "Mother May I" setting where the gods dictate a railroad plot to the PCs? If so, you have my sympathy. That's not relevant to any of my games, and hopefully not to most people's games. That kind of railroading is very much NOT my preference.

It is not in any way theoretical optimization for a deity to use either of the two abilities I listed effectively. Not theoretical I say, because the plan to deal with any non-theoretically optimized PC is so completely simple the average five year old could have an accurate understanding with a single sentence of explanation. Without extensions like and and so on. Any PC which is theoretically optimized immediately, unavoidably, and irrevocably forfeits all rights to non-theoretically optimized setting to threaten.

[Nifft]

It is not in any way theoretical optimization for a deity to use either of the two abilities I listed effectively. Not theoretical I say, because the plan to deal with any non-theoretically optimized PC is so completely simple the average five year old could have an accurate understanding with a single sentence of explanation. Without extensions like and and so on. Any PC which is theoretically optimized immediately, unavoidably, and irrevocably forfeits all rights to non-theoretically optimized setting to threaten.

Indeed, TO is irrelevant to non-TO games.

I said that, and now you've also said that.

Bully on us both for being right about that.



Non-TO PCs can and do threaten non-TO gods, which is why gods have stats, and why some mortals have canonically become gods in spite of the concerted opposition of several other gods (e.g. Vecna).

There is no reason to assume that a PC is ~beholden~ to any god, unless you're playing "Mother-May-I" with the gods as your plot-rails. I'm not playing like that -- the whole set up seems abhorrent -- so yeah, not an applicable argument.

[Psyren]

Without wading too far into the divine d***-waving contest, beating deities requires you to first become strong enough to compete with them. But before you can do that, Portfolio Sense allows them to anticipate you becoming Pun-Pun/learning Ice Assassin/whatever other plan you had long before you even pull it off, and stop you in your tracks. Generally, if you want to kill a god, you'll want the help of another one first, or an artifact.


Hmm, makes me wonder if there isn't some way to just go to where souls are made and forge a replacement...

One mundane craft check later and viola, they're a new soul

I believe the PEP just... generates them. Not sure.

[Rizban]

I believe the PEP just... generates them. Not sure.
Raw "soulstuff" is generated from one of several Nodes on the Positive Energy Plane. It is drawn from there into crystalline trees formed of solidified positive energy, which grow soul fruits. When ripe, the soul fruits fall from the tree and are whisked away to incarnate into the new life being formed. Although it's said that there are several such places in the PEP, the only one named in the books is the Bastion of Souls.

[ryu]

Indeed, TO is irrelevant to non-TO games.

I said that, and now you've also said that.

Bully on us both for being right about that.



Non-TO PCs can and do threaten non-TO gods, which is why gods have stats, and why some mortals have canonically become gods in spite of the concerted opposition of several other gods (e.g. Vecna).

There is no reason to assume that a PC is ~beholden~ to any god, unless you're playing "Mother-May-I" with the gods as your plot-rails. I'm not playing like that -- the whole set up seems abhorrent -- so yeah, not an applicable argument.

Combat begins, the deity's portfolio sense had of course warned them of this exact event, and their readied action is spent killing you with no save because that's a stated power they just have. Single step plans with the use of one ability are the most basic and practical thing there is. No practical PC is a threat to a deity with literally thirty seconds of thought placed in combat tactics. It's why Tippy requires as part of his setting that gods be basically inactive. Nothing a standard PC can do beats singular applications of abilities they just have and no pc period beats a god who plans and puts actual effort in.

Further still it is not ''mother may I'' to have a god kill some moron dumb enough to pick a fight with someone that far above their weight class.

[Nifft]

Combat begins, the deity's portfolio sense had of course warned them of this exact event, and their readied action is spent killing you with no save because that's a stated power they just have. Single step plans with the use of one ability are the most basic and practical thing there is. No practical PC is a threat to a deity with literally thirty seconds of thought placed in combat tactics. It's why Tippy requires as part of his setting that gods be basically inactive. Nothing a standard PC can do beats singular applications of abilities they just have and no pc period beats a god who plans and puts actual effort in.

Further still it is not ''mother may I'' to have a god kill some moron dumb enough to pick a fight with someone that far above their weight class.

PC: "Please help me do this."

God: "No, that would cost me a brick. Bugger off."

PC: "If you don't help me, then I'm going to cost you a lot more than a brick."

God: "Oh, so you're challenging me to direct combat like a moron? Mua-ha-ha, I have portfolio sense! That will wa--"

PC: "No, I'm not a straw-man, nor am I stupid. I'm going to cost you more than one brick by doing things which avoid direct combat, since direct combat is basically the dumbest option available to me.

God: "Oh drat. You did say that originally, didn't you? I'm a dumb god for ignoring what you actually said and trying to argue with a strawman instead."

PC: "Nah that's cool, while you were doing that dumb straw-man thing I shanked three of your High Priests."

God: "Ow, my chosen."

PC: "I can keep doing that, or we could talk about you giving me one brick."

[ryu]

PC: "Please help me do this."

God: "No, that would cost me a brick. Bugger off."

PC: "If you don't help me, then I'm going to cost you a lot more than a brick."

God: "Oh, so you're challenging me to direct combat like a moron? Mua-ha-ha, I have portfolio sense! That will wa--"

PC: "No, I'm not a straw-man, nor am I stupid. I'm going to cost you more than one brick by doing things which avoid direct combat, since direct combat is basically the dumbest option available to me.

God: "Oh drat. You did say that originally, didn't you? I'm a dumb god for ignoring what you actually said and trying to argue with a strawman instead."

PC: "Nah that's cool, while you were doing that dumb straw-man thing I shanked three of your High Priests."

God: "Ow, my chosen."

PC: "I can keep doing that, or we could talk about you giving me one brick."

There is no way of avoiding direct combat that doesn't involve not making the god want to kill you. Do you know why? That kill ability isn't range limited. You want to directly threaten the god, or anything they own? You die. Doesn't matter where you are. Doesn't matter what plane you hide on. Doesn't even matter what level of antimagic or other defenses you've placed up like paper walls. Pissing off a god is the fastest way to die in this game and it's RIGHT THERE in their listed abilities in the only source that directly stats gods. Worse still it's also one of the surest ways to stay dead because conventional ressing methods explicitly don't work and the only way to actually come back is the god itself directly deciding you don't need to be dead anymore or a more powerful god intervening on your behalf. Begging for the help of another god more powerful than what you're thinking of pissing off is also the only way to not die immediately.

Further unlike your pathetic self the god has no trouble resurrecting its shanked underlings without help because it's a god with the in-miracle listed common ability of casually resurrecting armies, the ability to alter reality itself on a whim, or even simply emulate spellcasting go back in time and prevent you from being born. All of which with direct, simple applications of stated abilities. This is why beating a god in any appreciable manner is impossible without the help of another god. Their strength above yours is far from theoretical.

[Psyren]

Hey guys, I agree with ryu, but can we get back on topic? The phallus-waving contest about god abilities is not really relevant to the thread.

My personal opinion is that gods shouldn't be statted at all, rather the stats should be for "aspects", "avatars" or some similar proxy, and then if you successfully beat it that should weaken the god in some plot-relevant way. Whether that then allows the PCs to take over the gods power, drive it into dormancy, make it vulnerable to an alpha strike from another (hopefully grateful) god, or even in some cases it might do nothing entirely (at least immediately.) But the idea that you can roll dice to hold a literal god over a barrel is a pretty lame idea, imo.