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Graysire
2017-11-06, 09:26 PM
Damage = attack roll + bonuses - defense - base difficulty

you have an attack bonus and defense bonus that increase with level. The base difficulty is the same across all characters, all kinds of defensive bonuses and damage bonuses are included in that one roll.

How would this affect dnd-like games? Does it make sense? Any other thoughts about what kind of RPG this system fits for?

pwykersotz
2017-11-06, 09:34 PM
It sounds a lot like FATE where you take shifts of damage (https://fate-srd.com/fate-accelerated/ouch-damage-stress-and-consequences) equal to the difference between the attack roll and the defense. Does this significantly differ from that?

Graysire
2017-11-06, 09:39 PM
Well, unlike fate I was thinking about sticking to a more dnd-like framework of having classes and such, dnd is one of the only TTRPGs I've played, so I'm thinking in terms building off that framework, but I don't know nearly as much about game design as the people here, so I was hoping for some insight. I have watched some FATE groups though, I didn't see the similarity, how would it affect the game to have this be your only HP, no consequences?

Vitruviansquid
2017-11-06, 10:19 PM
Damage = attack roll + bonuses - defense - base difficulty

you have an attack bonus and defense bonus that increase with level. The base difficulty is the same across all characters, all kinds of defensive bonuses and damage bonuses are included in that one roll.

How would this affect dnd-like games? Does it make sense? Any other thoughts about what kind of RPG this system fits for?

1. Leveling up increases damage potential and survivability at a faster rate the more of a level advantage you have.
2. HP should not increase as you level up, or else higher level fights will take longer than lower level fights (unless this is offset by giving players and monsters ways to increase their damage as they level up without increasing their attack roll).
3. If disparity between attack rolls and defense values widens as characters level up, characters will rapidly become more specialized.

Knaight
2017-11-07, 01:37 AM
Well, unlike fate I was thinking about sticking to a more dnd-like framework of having classes and such, dnd is one of the only TTRPGs I've played, so I'm thinking in terms building off that framework, but I don't know nearly as much about game design as the people here, so I was hoping for some insight. I have watched some FATE groups though, I didn't see the similarity, how would it affect the game to have this be your only HP, no consequences?

Fate borrowed the system from Fudge, which works just fine without a consequence system (it uses wounds). Something similar shows up in Ubiquity, and these are just two off the top of my head.

It's a proven mechanic, it will work just fine. It tends to show up with opposed rolls, but that's not actually necessary.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-07, 06:41 AM
Several games I own don't use damage rolls, instead using some variation of attack(+weapon)-defence(-armour)=damage. Off the top of my head CofD, Fate, Keltia, Qin: the Warring States. All skill based games, although it could work in a classed based game (Anima: Beyond Fantasy uses an annoyingly overcomplicated table that boils down to a similar system). Note that the terms in brackets are generally only added after success has been determined, because some games have a 'minimum damage zero' rule or an effect on a nondamaging hit.

I've been considering such a house rule for Lamentations of the Flame Princess, where the damage dealt is entirely based on the weapon you're wielding, no ability score modifiers, which means as you start facing more powerful opponents characters stop doing meaningful damage (one attack per round, maximum damage die is 1d10) unless you're a magic-user with access to scaling attacks. The rule is that you add the amount you beat the target's AC by to your damage, it'll increase the average damage of Fighters by a bit over one per level and the average damage of everybody by a couple of points (as well as making everything swingier), but it'll stop endless combats. Not certain if I want to make weapon damage static or not though.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-07, 08:33 AM
Damage = attack roll + bonuses - defense - base difficulty

you have an attack bonus and defense bonus that increase with level. The base difficulty is the same across all characters, all kinds of defensive bonuses and damage bonuses are included in that one roll.

How would this affect dnd-like games? Does it make sense? Any other thoughts about what kind of RPG this system fits for?
Damage being based on the difference between your roll and the DC/defender's roll is a common enough mechanic. The only thing to be careful of is the d20-- it's a big die with a flat probability curve, meaning if you're not careful (especially if you're doing an opposed roll) you can get swingy damage results.

Joe the Rat
2017-11-07, 10:11 AM
One of the nice things is that this combines the avoidance and damage reduction qualities we expect from armor - either way, damage is reduced.

Savage Kingdoms uses this sort of mechanic - the d20 is the only die it uses for anything.

A couple of adjustments it takes:

Added base damage. If you clear the threshold of hitting, there are ways of getting a bit of extra damage added on.
Cap by weapon. There is an upper limit to the amount of damage a weapon can do - A dagger tops out at 15, while a sword runs into the 30's.

They also use the exploding/imploding d20 for crit/fail, in case you need some fantastic results.

I've also seen systems where exceptional rolls add to your damage potential, in addition to a standing damage system by clearing a number threshold. Savage Worlds and the old MEGS system is closest in this regard, as it still deals with a damage pool rather than a condition track (Storyteller, Fate, Shadowrun, etc.).

Quertus
2017-11-07, 01:15 PM
One drawback I haven't seen mentioned is that under such a system, a bazooka or chainsaw is much more accurate than, say, a knife or toothpick.

I've always liked the separation of accuracy and damage, myself. One of the first custom items I ever created as a GM was "Mace of the Master": +5 to damage, but -5 to hit.

Tinkerer
2017-11-07, 01:41 PM
One drawback I haven't seen mentioned is that under such a system, a bazooka or chainsaw is much more accurate than, say, a knife or toothpick.

Medical Doctor: "Und now, ve make ze incision." *chainsaw noises*

I usually am more fond of the Savage Worlds or several other systems method where if you exceeded the to hit by a certain amount you convert it into a damage bonus. Possibly a scaling one, possibly not. I definitely like tying them together but a lot more loosely than perhaps indicated in the initial post.

One unexpected downside to keep an eye out for is that you've taken the already extremely useful ability of battlefield control and made it even more powerful. By tying your damage avoidance stat to your damage soaking stat that means anything which lowers your damage avoidance capabilities is essentially twice as powerful as one might expect. And as we all know unexpectedly doubling the effectiveness of something in combat usually results in a 4x multiplier on it's actual impact on the world.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-07, 03:00 PM
One drawback I haven't seen mentioned is that under such a system, a bazooka or chainsaw is much more accurate than, say, a knife or toothpick.

I've always liked the separation of accuracy and damage, myself. One of the first custom items I ever created as a GM was "Mace of the Master": +5 to damage, but -5 to hit.

Eh, the general solution is to add weapon bonuses to damage, not to attack rolls, or to have two bonuses. So in CofD I'd roll the same dice pool to attack with a knife and to attack with a chainsaw (in most games, I'd slap a two die penalty on chainsaw attacks) and have the same chance to hit with either but the chainsaw will deal more damage (the knife does have a benefit, easier to conceal and explain why you're legitimately carrying it).

In fact, on the entire 'small damage die weapons are worthless' front, I've noted that most of them do have logical reasons for being in games. Weapons with reach and flexible weapons are obvious, smaller weapons are easier to hide, and actually having towns have laws on what weapons can be carried means it's worth buying a dagger for when you have to disarm (and my characters tend to carry at least four daggers just in case).

Knaight
2017-11-07, 04:55 PM
One drawback I haven't seen mentioned is that under such a system, a bazooka or chainsaw is much more accurate than, say, a knife or toothpick.

That's because it's not a problem. There's a lot of easy ways to add damage distinct from hit chances. Adding to damage only on hits is common, you just have to do a bit more math when looking at the numbers (that mace you used as an example would need to be -5 to hit, +10 to damage to get the same effect). Another is to use multiplicative effects, where it takes a good shot to really make the power of the weapon shine.

With that said, accuracy isn't the only point of interest in hit chances. A hit needs to actually inflict damage to be worth a hit at all, which the toothpick struggles with. Range is a huge factor - that knife is likely much faster and more precise than a sword, but two feet of reach advantage tends to translate to the sword being more likely to hit. That chainsaw might very well warrant a higher accuracy rating than the toothpick. In the context of hits having to hurt the one number hit/damage simplification can be surprisingly viable.

Arbane
2017-11-07, 06:33 PM
Well, unlike fate I was thinking about sticking to a more dnd-like framework of having classes and such, dnd is one of the only TTRPGs I've played, so I'm thinking in terms building off that framework, but I don't know nearly as much about game design as the people here, so I was hoping for some insight. I have watched some FATE groups though, I didn't see the similarity, how would it affect the game to have this be your only HP, no consequences?

I'd strongly recommend you at least read (and preferrably play) some other RPGs besides D&D before working on your own.

Some good ones I've seen that do things differently with regard to combat/damage:
FATE (already mentioned)
Savage Worlds - simple 'hit, roll high enough, and you do extra damage' system.
Dread - if you knock over the Jenga tower, your character dies.
Danger Patrol - if the Danger level gets high enough, you could die!
Apocalypse World - the clock is counting up towards your doom.
RuneQuest - whoops, there goes your arm.
Tenra Bansho - say that you're dying for massive bonuses!
Legends of the Wulin - no HP, but at the end of a fight you might have a broken rib, black eye, Chi imbalance and you've fallen in love with the person who did all of it to you.

Quertus
2017-11-08, 12:21 AM
Legends of the Wulin - no HP, but at the end of a fight you might have a broken rib, black eye, Chi imbalance and you've fallen in love with the person who did all of it to you.

"You are my quest." :smalleek:

pwykersotz
2017-11-08, 03:09 PM
"You are my quest." :smalleek:

Fantastic movie.