What to do with a troublesome player... AL

[PeteNutButter]

So my local store has as AL every week running two tables, and I am one of the regular DMs (about 4 of us, we rotate). We have a player that has been showing up, who is ruining the experience for other players and DMs. We've had several players, express strongly that they won't play with that player, and instead choose to play at the other table making the table with problem player a sinking ship, with it sometimes barely enough players to play, and the other table always at maximum. One of the other regular DMs has been bailing regularly, because of this player ruining the experience for him as well. His son plays as well, so we lose two good players when he doesn't show. Several other players have reduced in attendance as well, especially if they know problem player is going to be playing.

It has become clear that this player is a problem.

Here is the dilemma though: it's AL. Can you ban a player from playing in an event before it even starts? The AL rules state that you can remove a disruptive player from the game, but can you perma-ban them? or preemptive ban them? Any suggestions on the best way to go about this?

I would have super banned this guy forever ago if it were my home game, but I feel a bit restrained as it's AL, and should be welcoming to all.

Since I'm sure people will ask, these are just some of the problem players activities.
-Constantly talking, and distracting other players. CONSTANTLY.
-Constantly trying to cheese, beyond the scope of the rules.
-Constantly arguing with the DM. (I usually threaten to kick him from the game, when I'm DM, which puts a temporary halt to it, but other DMs are much nicer.)

Despite all this, he doesn't seem to understand that what is doing is ruining the game for other people. I have tried to tell him.

Thanks in advance for any input folks.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would have super banned this guy forever ago if it were my home game, but I feel a bit restrained as it's AL, and should be welcoming to all.

I don't play AL, but I do know a geek social fallacy when I see one. Don't ever be welcoming to everyone. Be welcoming to everyone who can treat others with respect. You wouldn't invite the guy who keeps calling others a word for a bundle of sticks to play. You wouldn't invite the guy who farts constantly at the table to play. You wouldn't invite the guy who complains about brown people to play. By welcoming such a destructive person to the game, you are making others feel less welcome because you are valuing his opinion over them being respected. This guy is a cheat and a jerk. I'd said give him the boot.

And remember...WOTC wants to sell product. Do you really think they're going to want to be associated with Mister Jerkward?

EDIT: Have you talked to the store staff? Presumably the store makes money off of this event through books and snacks or even joins in. If you get several people to complain about him to them, I think there's a good chance they'd listen. FLGS don't make money if they are uninviting places where you get shouted at.

[scalyfreak]

I recently learned a local game store does weekly AL events, so I have been reading up on them. This is what the official Player's Guide for AL says:


Participants noticing disruptive behavior should make those responsible for the behavior aware of their actions.
If a participant feels uncomfortable bringing it to the attention of the disruptive individual, the participant should notify the Dungeon Master or organizer of the event immediately.
The Dungeon Master has the right to ask a disruptive player to leave the table and speak with the organizer.
The organizer has the right to remove a disruptive or aggressive player or Dungeon Master from the play area or premises.


Translated into plain English: Kick him out.

You tried to talk to the guy, and he didn't get the point. Kudos to you, that can't possibly have been fun or easy. But now that you have tried, and it didn't work, you can move on to the next step: Talk to the store staff. Unless they are morons they will have noticed the same thing, and your speaking up may be the very thing that makes them move on this and get rid of the guy.

You should NOT be welcoming to all. That's not what being inclusive is all about. Genuine inclusiveness shuts out those who try to destroy it. Do not compromise on this.

[PeteNutButter]

I recently learned a local game store does weekly AL events, so I have been reading up on them. This is what the official Player's Guide for AL says:


Participants noticing disruptive behavior should make those responsible for the behavior aware of their actions.
If a participant feels uncomfortable bringing it to the attention of the disruptive individual, the participant should notify the Dungeon Master or organizer of the event immediately.
The Dungeon Master has the right to ask a disruptive player to leave the table and speak with the organizer.
The organizer has the right to remove a disruptive or aggressive player or Dungeon Master from the play area or premises.


Translated into plain English: Kick him out.

You tried to talk to the guy, and he didn't get the point. Kudos to you, that can't possibly have been fun or easy. But now that you have tried, and it didn't work, you can move on to the next step: Talk to the store staff. Unless they are morons they will have noticed the same thing, and your speaking up may be the very thing that makes them move on this and get rid of the guy.

You should NOT be welcoming to all. That's not what being inclusive is all about. Genuine inclusiveness shuts out those who try to destroy it. Do not compromise on this.

Yeah, I think I'll have to do just that... Thanks for the input.

A player commenting on the troublesome one, "I didn't know they made charisma that low..."

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd speak with the other organizers and elect the one with the best real life charisma score to lay it out. I'd still recommend speaking with the staff so they aren't confused and he doesn't get the bright idea of complaining to them.

Hey, you seem to treat him civilly and try to reign him in. Maybe you're the face!

[PeteNutButter]

I'd speak with the other organizers and elect the one with the best real life charisma score to lay it out. I'd still recommend speaking with the staff so they aren't confused and he doesn't get the bright idea of complaining to them.

Hey, you seem to treat him civilly and try to reign him in. Maybe you're the face!

Ugh I am, and already breached the idea with the store owner. They basically gave me free reign to ban him if ultimately necessary. It probably makes it easier that he is getting rid of customers and I've never seen him buy so much as a soda.

I said a month ago, that this is a problem I'm going to have to end up dealing with... *sigh*

[scalyfreak]

I'd speak with the other organizers and elect the one with the best real life charisma score to lay it out. I'd still recommend speaking with the staff so they aren't confused and he doesn't get the bright idea of complaining to them.

This too. Be smart about it. You are in the right, don't rush your argument... make your case patiently and the store staff will see your point of view.

Best of luck to you! And on behalf of all AL players everywhere, thank you for trying to remove festering imbeciles like this person from our tables.

[Malifice]

Thanks in advance for any input folks.

Mate **** AL. **** their rules.

Its your game. Boot this ******** if you want. I would.

You've tried to chat to him and it failed. Next step is 'Sorry mate, you're not invited to this game, you're too disrcuptive.'

He complains and you tell him to tell his story walking and not to let the door hit him on the way out.

[Honest Tiefling]

Ugh I am, and already breached the idea with the store owner. They basically gave me free reign to ban him if ultimately necessary. It probably makes it easier that he is getting rid of customers and I've never seen him buy so much as a soda.

Such is the life of the Face. I'm sorry that you have to do it, but if the owner was so willing to let you ban him, the owner probably didn't want to do it themselves.

But hey, once you get rid of the dead weight, your table is probably going to improve. Focus on helping a new player discover DnD or letting a vet finally have a chance to play. Focus on the positives! Or guilt someone else into DMing, that works too.

[warsawwombats]

Participants noticing disruptive behavior should make those responsible for the behavior aware of their actions.
If a participant feels uncomfortable bringing it to the attention of the disruptive individual, the participant should notify the Dungeon Master or organizer of the event immediately.
The Dungeon Master has the right to ask a disruptive player to leave the table and speak with the organizer.
The organizer has the right to remove a disruptive or aggressive player or Dungeon Master from the play area or premises.


Translated into plain English: Kick him out.

You should NOT be welcoming to all. That's not what being inclusive is all about. Genuine inclusiveness shuts out those who try to destroy it. Do not compromise on this.

I definitely concur with this. Next session, he gets one warning at the table. The DM should make it a public warning, and reiterate that the organizers and other DMs have spoken to him about this before.

If he continues, stop the game and politely ask him to leave the table with an explanation that he's disrupting your ability to run the game for the rest of the table. If he resists, repeat your request that he leave, and offer to discuss it with him, the store organizer, and the other DMs after the night is over.

At that point, if he refuses to leave, he's clearly preventing everyone else from playing. You may have apologize to your other players and close up shop for the night to deal with this one person with the store manager. I can't imagine the store would be too happy about an entire table of potential customers going home early due to one disruptive person.

[Malifice]

I definitely concur with this. Next session, he gets one warning at the table. The DM should make it a public warning, and reiterate that the organizers and other DMs have spoken to him about this before.

If he continues, stop the game and politely ask him to leave the table with an explanation that he's disrupting your ability to run the game for the rest of the table. If he resists, repeat your request that he leave, and offer to discuss it with him, the store organizer, and the other DMs after the night is over.

At that point, if he refuses to leave, he's clearly preventing everyone else from playing. You may have apologize to your other players and close up shop for the night to deal with this one person with the store manager. I can't imagine the store would be too happy about an entire table of potential customers going home early due to one disruptive person.

Store mangager politely asks him to leave the table and the store.

He refuses, call the Cops. He's trespassing.

He gets angry and in your face and starts threatning you, sit him on his ass with a right cross.

[Honest Tiefling]

He gets angry and in your face and starts threatning you, sit him on his ass with a right cross.

...I'm not saying to plan to punch the guy, but if you have any burly people willing to deal with troublemakers, well, see if one of them isn't willing to be at your table if you are afraid of physical altercations.

It is a very poor group that doesn't try to protect the Face.

[PeteNutButter]

I definitely concur with this. Next session, he gets one warning at the table. The DM should make it a public warning, and reiterate that the organizers and other DMs have spoken to him about this before.

If he continues, stop the game and politely ask him to leave the table with an explanation that he's disrupting your ability to run the game for the rest of the table. If he resists, repeat your request that he leave, and offer to discuss it with him, the store organizer, and the other DMs after the night is over.

At that point, if he refuses to leave, he's clearly preventing everyone else from playing. You may have apologize to your other players and close up shop for the night to deal with this one person with the store manager. I can't imagine the store would be too happy about an entire table of potential customers going home early due to one disruptive person.


Store mangager politely asks him to leave the table and the store.

He refuses, call the Cops. He's trespassing.

He gets angry and in your face and starts threatning you, sit him on his ass with a right cross.

Yeah, I'd like to avoid that if possible... He has ruined every session he has played in to date. I'll just let him know he can't play if he signs up. Before he even shows up.


...I'm not saying to plan to punch the guy, but if you have any burly people willing to deal with troublemakers, well, see if one of them isn't willing to be at your table if you are afraid of physical altercations.

It is a very poor group that doesn't try to protect the Face.

This face is the army vet, and still in his prime. :smalltongue: It would never come to that. In the land of the nerds the guy with a 13-14 str and cha can sometimes be intimidating without even trying.

[scalyfreak]

So what all this comes down to is:

1. You want to get rid of The Jerk

2. You want to do it in a way that doesn't create a scene and freak out/scare away other players.

A suggestion: Refuse to have him at your table. Yes, it's a bit of a compromise, but to be perfectly honest, if this person is this much of a problem the store owners should not put it on you to get rid of him. They should step up and do their part. Quite frankly, if they don't want to deal with these types of situations they shouldn't run AL events in their store.

By taking a hard line against The Jerk, you may well become the most popular DM in the store. Other DMs might want to emulate you in order to attract more players. Problem solved.

[Honest Tiefling]

This face is the army vet, and still in his prime. :smalltongue: It would never come to that. In the land of the nerds the guy with a 13-14 str and cha can sometimes be intimidating without even trying.

You'd think the Army Vet would know the value of attacking a guy from behind and out numbering the enemy. That's why you have the party rogue and barbarian come to all social encounters.

[PeteNutButter]

You'd think the Army Vet would know the value of attacking a guy from behind and out numbering the enemy. That's why you have the party rogue and barbarian come to all social encounters.

Now your sounding like one of my PCs... treating every social encounter like WAR!:smallbiggrin:

[Malifice]

...I'm not saying to plan to punch the guy, but if you have any burly people willing to deal with troublemakers, well, see if one of them isn't willing to be at your table if you are afraid of physical altercations.

It is a very poor group that doesn't try to protect the Face.

Most groups have a token death metal listening long black haired, black tshirt with [insert death metal group name here] guy.

Usually with a small arsenal of weaponry at home.

Gotta love the hobby.

[Honest Tiefling]

Now your sounding like one of my PCs... treating every social encounter like WAR!:smallbiggrin:

I think I like your players.

But honestly, good luck. And someone mentioned telling others that he was told to behave, which is a good thing because then they won't have to worry about the ban-hammer and indicate WHY he's being removed...Even if most of them already know.

[CountWolfgang]

I've noticed AL seems to attract people of that sort. I could say something everyone else is saying, but I won't. I will however say don't continue to deal with it. I had a dm before who had to deal with problem players constantly. Usually he had a couple in every group he ran, and he ran 3 or 4. He just continued dealing with it, and starting getting frustrated to the point of taking it out on other players; usually for very little thing or nothing at all. He would get pissed at me for asking him to repeat something I couldn't hear. Or asking to explain something further, that was poorly worded. And every other little misunderstanding in between. I don't think a single person would find it fun, to have a dm constantly pissed at them for no reason. I at least never found it fun, to feel like I was walking on egg shells. Especially at one of the things that was supposed to be my escape from stuff like that. And I don't know how to bring grievances like that up with people. I'm not exactly the most skilled at social interactions, and usually come across in the wrong way. So if I do bring it up with someone, I find I'm too direct. So I end up coming across like an ass and nothing says I want to be friends, by being an ass (I'd probaby have a charisma score of 8). Long story short he only got that way, by putting up problem players. Now don't get me wrong, he was a good dm; he just got fed up dealing with crappy people. Because while it was suppose to be my escape, it was also meant to be his too.

[ZorroGames]

Only played AL, even the small group I organized after the FLGS closed is AL, and there are always risks of dysfuntional people of all ages in a public event. Experienced that in the 1970 in Sacramento, CA, in a large public meeting room in a library. It is a matter of controlling bad social behavior in a manner perceived respectful and fair to as many people as possible. Most people understand that some pruning of disruptive individuals may be necessary for the health of the group but few people are comfortable with it even when it is deemed a “correct” action.

That said recently I have seen the worst stereotypes appear once, maybe twice, then not reappear. Maybe they switched to another evening, another store (before this one closed) or something else but overall the experience has been excellent. Management may have been weak at taxes but seemed strong in building a good game experience. :smalleek:

Now the “home basement moved to classroom of one of the players” group has a ‘hit them first’ player (admittedly :smallsmile: he runs a dwarf Barbarian) but he volunteered to DM for a while so that means we actually have avoided a fight with 10+ Hobgoblins behind a gated high stone wall with crenallations... Galling to the all of the third and some of the second levels I am sure but I had a brand new Fighter and other than the cleric most of our 6 characters were slightly to very squishy characters. Thinking of returning after boosting to Tier 2 or at the top end of Tier 1 and “changing management of the toll gate” just on a “stopping evil” basis. And maybe some pride...

I think we all agree on what has to be done. Hopefully it will be done in a manner that allows the disruptive player to learn from the experience but some things cannot be fixed.

[scalyfreak]

Beelzebubba's advice is good and solid, but he forgot one important step.

Report back and let us know how it went. :smallsmile:

[KorvinStarmast]

Now your sounding like one of my PCs... treating every social encounter like WAR!:smallbiggrin: *You have now reached complete understanding, Grasshopper* :smallcool:

[Jexis]

The main problem I see is that he tries to break everything and doesn't realize he's disruptive. Some people don't understand what being annoying is until they experience it. Perhaps have one of your fellow DM friends play and do what he does: constantly argue with you (though it's staged so you're not actually mad), constantly try to be better than *specifically* him, distract him during his turn and implement a 5 second rule (if you don't announce your combat in 5 seconds of it being your turn you get shoved to the end of initiative that round) and throw enemies at him that specifically counter his character. This sounds like spite, and it is to an extent, but when he comes out of it all grumpy and salty, you can finally explain that that's how his fellow players feel, and either he gets it or he's pissed and never comes back. Win/win.

*Note - the planted annoying player should be well known to the community so people get an idea that something's up and there simply aren't twice the amount of annoying people. Even if he catches on, all the better.

[Chugger]

Store mangager politely asks him to leave the table and the store.

He refuses, call the Cops. He's trespassing.

He gets angry and in your face and starts threatning you, sit him on his ass with a right cross.

Whoah, don't do that!

I hope you're joking but can't tell - if you're serious about advocating real violence, I'm pretty sure that's not allowed on this forum. And rightly so. Someone could go to jail over this. It's rare, but punching someone in the face sometimes leads to death - especially if the person has a pre-existing health issue or falls and hits their head badly.

It seems to me this player is on some sort of behavior or mental health "spectrum". They seem to have misplaced empathy or no empathy. And they seem to be lacking self-awareness. Can you find out if they had an I.E.P. in school or a diagnosis? If they're willing to talk about that, that would be the key to helping them stop doing this - if you want to bother with all that. It's very hard and would take a lot of work (and learning) - and I wouldn't at all blame you if you didn't want to.

Can you legally tape them playing - does the store have a security camera you can legally play back for them, to show them their behavior? No idea if that would work and be very careful, sometimes taping people w/out their consent is not legal. Depends on where you are.

[PeteNutButter]

Whoah, don't do that!

I hope you're joking but can't tell - if you're serious about advocating real violence, I'm pretty sure that's not allowed on this forum. And rightly so. Someone could go to jail over this. It's rare, but punching someone in the face sometimes leads to death - especially if the person has a pre-existing health issue or falls and hits their head badly.

It seems to me this player is on some sort of behavior or mental health "spectrum". They seem to have misplaced empathy or no empathy. And they seem to be lacking self-awareness. Can you find out if they had an I.E.P. in school or a diagnosis? If they're willing to talk about that, that would be the key to helping them stop doing this - if you want to bother with all that. It's very hard and would take a lot of work (and learning) - and I wouldn't at all blame you if you didn't want to.

Can you legally tape them playing - does the store have a security camera you can legally play back for them, to show them their behavior? No idea if that would work and be very careful, sometimes taping people w/out their consent is not legal. Depends on where you are.

You really are hitting key points. You don’t want to exclude people just because they have some sort disability. But at what point do you draw the line if that person is ruining the game for the group?

I’d imagine if a deaf player that only knew sign language wanted to play I’d have difficulty accommodating them. (Not for lack of trying.)

I might also find it hard to accommodate children below a certain maturity.

The point is if you try to include everyone for the sake of inclusion and the game fails to launch, because no one else shows, then you’ve failed on all accounts.

[furby076]

Whatever you decide, do it discretely, calm, and concise. A scene will not help you, the store or other customers. If this player is being banned, he has nothing to lose. If you can list the issues, and want to, then talk to him. Let him know if he can't adjust his behavior, he will not be allowed to participate. If he is willing to change, and does change, he can play.

But do it quietly and civilly

[scalyfreak]

The point is if you try to include everyone for the sake of inclusion and the game fails to launch, because no one else shows, then you’ve failed on all accounts.

This was exactly my point earlier. Don't try so hard to be inclusive that you can no longer get rid of those that make the game fail. :smallsmile:

[RickAsWritten]

I play in PeteNutButters group. I can personally attest to how disruptive this guy is. When we were playing through the Yawning Portal, we had one of our non-regular DM's running Dead in Thay, and he almost ragequit because of this guy. As an example, we were going up against enemy spellcasters, and he proceeded to argue with the DM for over 20 minutes that he couldn't be Counterspelled because he hid his hands in his robe when he cast Fireball. He is constantly trying to game the system like this.

[scalyfreak]

he proceeded to argue with the DM for over 20 minutes that he couldn't be Counterspelled because he hid his hands in his robe when he cast Fireball.

That's not disruptive, that's idiotic.

Which I guess could be disruptive, if the idiocy continues for 20 minutes.

At the risk of being a jerk, what is wrong with the rest of your group that you let him do that for 20 minutes? What is the worst thing that can happen if you tell him to shut up and accept the DM's ruling, and to have the argument after the game, and then actually enforce that?

[Finieous]

As an example, we were going up against enemy spellcasters, and he proceeded to argue with the DM for over 20 minutes that he couldn't be Counterspelled because he hid his hands in his robe when he cast Fireball.

I know it's very different when it's your game That Guy is ruining, but damn, to an outsider these stories are always hilarious in their own quirky ways. :smallbiggrin:

Like, really, I wouldn't have been able to argue with the guy because I wouldn't have been able to stop laughing.

[RickAsWritten]

At the risk of being a jerk, what is wrong with the rest of your group that you let him do that for 20 minutes? What is the worst thing that can happen if you tell him to shut up and accept the DM's ruling, and to have the argument after the game, and then actually enforce that?

A combination of: the table members being only recent acquaintances/friends, B personality types, and the fact that he continued, unrelentingly, to bring it up even after the DM made the ruling and we moved on.

[scalyfreak]

A combination of: the table members being only recent acquaintances/friends, B personality types, and the fact that he continued, unrelentingly, to bring it up even after the DM made the ruling and we moved on.

Leaving you no recourse but physical violence or possibly the poisoning of his food. I understand.

I applaud your restraint.

[2D8HP]

Oh by Corellon Larethian and Lolth's lost love-child this is a torment!

Um.. sounds like the owner/manager is trying to get out of liability if things go south.

Sad for the hobby, but maybe just invite the other players elsewhere?

[PeteNutButter]

Oh by Corellon Larethian and Lolth's lost love-child this is a torment!

Um.. sounds like the owner/manager is trying to get out of liability if things go south.

Sad for the hobby, but maybe just invite the other players elsewhere?

The owner and I have a solid relationship. The store does a lot more business from other hobbies, and he generally lives the discretion to me for how to handle D&D AL things. I'll handle it.

[2D8HP]

...I'll handle it.


Well best wishes, and bonne chance to you!

[Unoriginal]

I play in PeteNutButters group. I can personally attest to how disruptive this guy is. When we were playing through the Yawning Portal, we had one of our non-regular DM's running Dead in Thay, and he almost ragequit because of this guy. As an example, we were going up against enemy spellcasters, and he proceeded to argue with the DM for over 20 minutes that he couldn't be Counterspelled because he hid his hands in his robe when he cast Fireball. He is constantly trying to game the system like this.

*Put your hands in your front pockets to cast a damage-causing spell*

Pretty sure all you'd get from it is giving a new meaning to "Fireballs"

[Honest Tiefling]

*Put your hands in your front pockets to cast a damage-causing spell*

Pretty sure all you'd get from it is giving a new meaning to "Fireballs"

Pretty sure most people can't make complicated movements when your hands are bound by cloth. Exactly how large are his pockets!?

Of course, the mature thing to do is not to have all enemy spellcasters perform their gestures in the stupidest ways possible to mock him, but if you did, no one would blame you.