So you've got magic in your blood: An Updated Guide to Sorcery

[morroiel]

So you've got magic in your blood
An Updated Guide to Sorcery

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/54/35/7954352bc4dfe0b66aa64911b7ec3358.jpg
Image by Anna Steinbauer

The sorcerer is the magically gifted; the student who neglects all of his studies but manages to wing the test and break the curve. Their natural intuition is enough to do things with magic that the most learned of wizard's could only dream about. They've spent their whole lives letting their name and talents take them places, and where those have failed, their natural charisma owed to their supreme self-confidence in their abilities see them through to safety.

Unfortunately the downside to never having to work for it, is that sorcerer's tend to not be well rounded magic users. They are deeply specialized in whatever field flows naturally from their fingers and lips. Sorcerers either take to blasting the ever living hell out of their enemies, controlling the ebb and flow of every element in a battle, or getting people to do things against their better sense. Whatever the case may be, the end result is that the sorcerer is the best in the world at whatever he sets his mind after.

This guide is an attempt at optimization of the updated sorcerer (xanathar's, volos, scag, and recent UA). It is an effort born from my frustration with a lack of a truly updated sorcery guide - most of the current sorcerer guides have neglected newer subclasses or are slanted with outdated rulings on metamagics. As with all optimization guides, feel free to neglect the advice whenever it makes sense for RP or fun - what this game is ultimately about!

Color Scheme

This is a must take unless you want to gimp your character. This should only be ignored under very specific circumstances or for fun/RP reasons.
This is freaking amazing! It provides many options, or will do one thing extremely well.
This is a good choice, but there might be better options.
This is par for the course. It will regularly be useful but might go unused at times.
This is bad but might end up coming in handy under very specific circumstances.
Very Bad. It won't get used much if at all. It is a strictly bad choice. Only choose it for RP reasons.



Table of Contents:

Basic Guide to Core Class Features and Roles
Metamagic and Relevant Rulings
Races
Subclass Choices
Feats
Multiclassing
An Overview of Spells
Example Spell Lists
Hints and Tricks

[morroiel]

Ability Scores
Strength: Only necessary for multiclass gish builds.
Dexterity: Affects your initiative roll, AC, and one of the 3 big saves. Also useful for quite a few skills.
Constitution: Concentration is super important for casters most especially twinned haste sorcerers, one of the 3 big saves, and of course hit points.
Intelligence: This is only really worthwhile if you plan on taking ritual caster wizard.
Wisdom: One of the big 3 saves. Golden skill perception. And opens up ritual caster druid/cleric. Still not super important.
Charisma: Casting stat, which should be enough for you to know to max it. Additionally lets you be slippery in social encounters -> persuasion and deception are golden skills.

Class Features
Hit Dice: The d6 is the worst you can have. Still its better than older editions. If you can live till level 3, you should be fine.
Armor Proficiency: None. But you have shield and mage armor or other methods of getting AC 13 + dex. Mirror image, etc.
Weapon Proficiency: Limited but who gives a flying care.
Saving Throws: CON is a major 3 save AND for a caster who can't afford to drop concentration on damage is beyond useful. Wizards would kill for this. CHA is less useful, but when it comes up it's usually save or suck. Not a bad minor save to have.
Skills: Honestly you have a bit of options but the only ones you should consider taking are the conversational ones (persuasion, deception are golden skills) and possibly arcana if nobody else in your group can afford to take it. Honestly I'd still probably go with persuasion and deception if I were you.
Tools: Nothing. You aren't a tool expert and can grab a few with backgrounds if you have a specific RP interest in mind.
Spellcasting: Full Casting albeit with an extremely limited list (unless you are a divine soul). You only ever know a max of 15 spells, which is less than a warlock. If you aren't careful with your spell selection you can really hamstring yourself. You aren't given ritual caster either.
Flexible Casting: Inefficient spell point system -> convert spell slots to sorc points and convert sorc points into spell slots. Short term versatility, which is actually really good but you need to be careful as to how you use it.
Metamagic: The only reason to play a sorcerer (besides RP / flavor) in 5e.
Ability Score Improvement: Pretty standard.


Class Roles
Blaster
This is the sorcerer who loves blowing **** up. He's able to nova on demand like nobody else's business. While he might dabble in one or two control spells, the vast amount of his repertoire is in eliminating opponents with the one true form of cc: death.

Manipulator
This is the sorcerer who loves ****ing with people's minds. Turning friends against each other, navigating the social minutia with aces hidden underneath their sleeves. A wizard might forgo proper etiquette in favor of using powerful social magic to make others act in a specific manner. The sorcerer combines magic and a silver tongue to exert their will in such a way that their targets think their actions are of their own accord.

Support
This is the sorcerer who enhances their allies' abilities or tears down their enemies abilities with potent afflictions. Capable of locking down encounters in a way that wizards could only ever dream of, the support sorcerer orchestrates every encounter like a conductor producing a grand symphony.

[morroiel]

Picking Metamagics Strategically
You only get to choose 2 metamagic options at level 3, 1 at level 10, and 1 more at level 17. This means that most campaigns will see max 3 metamagics and that's at the very end (as most campaigns end around level 12); most of your time playing a sorcerer will be spent with only 2 metamagic options. Additionally under the RAW rules you can't switch your metamagics, which means you had best choose carefully as metamagic is what defines the sorcerer (the reason you give up the versatility of wizards).

Ideal Choices (Level 3):
Blaster: Empowered Spell, Twin Spell
Manipulator: Twin Spell, Subtle Spell
Support: Heighten Spell, Twin Spell

Ideal Choices (Level 10):
Blaster: quicken spell
Manipulator: Heighten Spell
Support: quicken spell

Ideal Choices (Level 17):
Blaster: heighten spell
Manipulator: quicken spell
Support: subtle spell

Careful Spell
Unfortunately the effects of this metamagic don't persist past the initial spellcast, which means it can't be paired with web, stinking cloud, earthquake, etc. for ultimate battlefield control. There are only a handful of spells in which it is useful and even with those it is far better to just aim better or use better party tactics. I'd only take this for RP purposes or if your party are a bunch of uncoordinated melees. Note: that if your DM rules that this persists, it goes up to a light blue rating and if you are a support / battlefield control caster then a gold rating...

Relevant Ruling: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/840017588746768384?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2017%2F0 6%2F06%2Fcan-careful-spell-be-used-with-cloudkill%2F

Distant Spell
Spend 1 sorcery point to negate the biggest problem with touch spells. Doubling range of the other spells is kind of nice but it isn't of paramount importance; just get better at positioning. If you are divine soul this might be worth taking as they have some incredibly strong touch spells in their list. Otherwise this is an incredibly niche metamagic. Unfortunately the wording of the metamagic has multiple interpretations, so I'd suggest asking your DM ahead of time.

Multiple Interpretations:
Are touch spells converted to ranged spell attacks or are they still melee spell attacks with increased range?
Are cone spells have their range doubled as well?
Some DMs might even rule that the touch spells automatically land -> this is a great boon for spells like contagion (divine soul only) {based on the ruling below, it would seem like this would be incorrect but still worth asking}.

Relevant Ruling: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/15/spell-sniper-distant-spell-is-the-range-quadrupled/

Empowered Spell
Spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of dice on any damage spell. You use this after the damage is rolled and can be used in conjunction with other metamagics - this is the only metamagic that can be used in combination with others. The low cost makes it an optimal candidate for a low level metamagic choice. Statistically it doesn't have an incredible impact over the long run but in the short game it can be incredibly effective. Scrubbing your rolls becomes a lot less likely, which means you become a lot more reliable and can strategically judge how many rounds it will take for you to eliminate an opponent by blasting. Additionally there is a unique satisfaction of turning that 12 point fireball into a high 30 fireball roll. This is a must take for blasters as its what sets up above wizards.

Extended Spell
You only get 4 metamagics and can only use 1 at a time with the sole exception of combinations with empowered. There has NEVER been a time where I've thought to myself I wish I had extended spell. You are far better off just using font of magic to cast the spell again. This is probably the worst metamagic option and wouldn't even recommend it under RP circumstances.

Heightened Spell
This costs 3 Sorcery points, which means you aren't going to be using it very much at low levels. However you run into the same issue with quicken, which means if you are a support build you'll want to grab heighten or quicken at lvl 3 so that you'll have both + twin at lvl 10. I'd recommend heightened over quicken simply because you don't have the resources to make use of quicken till later levels. Becomes better the more save or suck spells you have; this is doubly true if your DM prefers small numbers of monsters compared to large numbers - especially if he doesn't add legendary resistances.

If you are a shadow sorcerer you already have a better version of heighten, which means you obviously shouldn't pick this just wait for your hound at lvl 6.

Quickened Spell
Convert a spell to become a BA for 2 sorcery points. You are limited to casting only 1 true spell (lvl 1-9) per turn but can use your free action to cast a cantrip or to take a normal action (disengage, dash, help, etc. etc.). Further uses include using this in conjunction with persistent cc or damage spells: sunbeam, eyebite, telekinesis, dragon breath, etc.. It is extremely costly however at low levels with only very little benefit (casting another cantrip is often worse than just twinning or upcasting with the sorcery points, etc.). I'd recommend on holding off on taking this till lvl 10, personally. It is incredibly strong once you have access to 5th level spells -> telekinesis + quicken, etc.

Be wary of this particular ruling: if you use the cantrip first, technically by RAW you can't quicken a lvl 1+ spell. If your DM is a stickler about this he's kinda being slimy but just be careful.

Subtle Spell
You spend 1 sorcery point to forgo verbal and somatic spell components, which makes you nearly impossible to shut down for any length of time. Further it lets you manipulate social encounters to a degree that most casters could only ever dream about. Suggestion, charm person, friends, etc. just got a whole lot better. Note that the low sorcery point cost means that this can be used with incredible frequency compared to the other metamagic options. If your campaign favors RP, social encounters, or if it is planning to not reach high levels you should really consider this. Most players who get used to it never want to go back.

Twinned Spell
You spend 1 sorcery point per spell level to twin any spell with a single target. Note that the errata clarified its usage: you can't twin a spell that has the potential at the current level being cast to target more than one creature. This means you can't twin scorching ray, telekinesis, eyebite, etc. according to RAW. Regardless being able to concentrate on two spells even with the previous listed limitation is nearly a superpower in 5e. Twin haste, greater invisibility, polymorph, suggestion, etc. Additionally you can use this to great effect right off the bat with twinning things like chromatic orb, cantrips, etc. The fact that the sorcery point cost has a lot of built in flexibility means you'll get a lot of use out of it.

Relevant Ruling: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/12/11/twinned-spell-2/

[morroiel]

WIP

What are we looking for in a race?
Allows 16 starting charisma - this is mandatory, all races without this are automatically red.
Defensive Abilities (resistances, save boosts, ac, etc.) - helps keep your squishy butt alive.
Innate Spellcasting - helps with your pathetically low spells known issues
Languages - helps if you are going the manipulator route as you have to share a language to use things like suggestion.

Any official race not listed below should be considered red.

Races
Aarakocra:
Drow:
Lightfoot Halfling:
Protector Aasimar:
Scourge Aasimar:
Fallen Aasimar:
DMG Aasimar:
Dragonborn:
Half-Elf:
Half-Elf Wood Elf Variant:
Half-Elf High Elf Variant:
Half-Elf Drow Elf Variant:
Half-Elf Aquatic Elf Variant:
Human:
Human Variant:
Tabaxi:
Tiefling:
Tiefling Devil's Tongue Variant:
Tiefling Feral Variant:
Tiefling Hellfire Variant:
Tiefling Winged Variant:
Triton:
Yuan-Ti Pureblood:

[morroiel]

WIP

Tier List by Archetype
Blaster:
Divine Soul
Draconic Bloodline
Phoenix SorceryUA
Shadow Sorcery
Stone SorceryUA
Storm Sorcery
Waterborne SorceryUA
Wild Magic

Manipulator:
Divine Soul
Draconic Bloodline
Phoenix SorceryUA
Shadow Sorcery
Stone SorceryUA
Storm Sorcery
Waterborne SorceryUA
Wild Magic

Support:
Divine Soul
Draconic Bloodline
Phoenix SorceryUA
Shadow Sorcery
Stone SorceryUA
Storm Sorcery
Waterborne SorceryUA
Wild Magic


Draconic BloodlinePHB
Gives you armor equivalent AC, making you very defensive. Also granting you a decent damage buff. If your campaign makes it to level 14 grants you activated wings/flight, which is a very good buff for sorcerers. This is probably your best option for building a damage oriented blaster sorcerer. It wouldn't be my first choice for manipulator or support archetypes.
Dragon Ancestor: Thematic ribbons mostly. Make sure you pick carefully here as the type of dragon ancestor you choose effects your elemental affinity. Fire is easily the best choice.
Draconic Resilience: Essentially moves you to d8 hit dice, and gives you natural armor. This is a huge boost to early game survival. Arguably the strongest level 1 sorc subclass ability.
Elemental Affinity: Add charisma modifier to one damage roll associated with the damage type of your ancestry. This is vitally important for blasters and makes it a strong contender for best subclass for that archetype. The resistance is nice but most of the time goes unused - your sorcery points are better spent elsewhere.
Dragon Wings: Perma flight option without concentration is insane utility. This is insanely strong depending on the DM / campaign.
Draconic Presence: If you get to this, you probably aren't going to blow 5 sorcery points on it very often. But it does give a blaster build a solid battlefield control option when needed. Personally its main use is keeping enemies away from you, but you already have flight for that. Still more options is never bad.

Shadow SorceryXAN
This is a absurdly strong choice due to having most of the power granted from the level 1 (granted it actually is granted at level 3) and level 6 abilities, which means you get to use your archetype effects/bonuses frequently throughout any given campaign. Hound of ill omen shouldn't exist as it is. At the worst case it acts a free metamagic and an attack action absorb from a target monster. On the more optimal end, it makes some spells with persistent saves viable enough to be strong contenders. Consider that your hound benefits from autocrits within melee range. With this archetype you can effectively subtle, twin, and heighten metamagic at level 6, grabbing quicken at level 10 and empower at level 17. It strengthens your strongest feature: metamagic. I'd strongly recommend this for any support or blaster sorcerers.
Eyes of the Dark: This gives you darkness that you can see through for the cost of 2 sorcery points. You also can cast the spell using slots without being able to see through it (though barring some very niche action economy things, this is inefficient). This is a great offensive and defensive option. This is essentially your own greater invisibility for the price of a 2nd level slot in terms of sorcery points. To cap it all off you get superior ranged darkvision. This is a huge benefit to blasters and to control casters alike.
Strength of the Grave: Charisma saving throw to avoid death from damage once per long rest is a really strong effect at low levels even with the constraints. Considering most sorcerer subclasses have a ribbon as a second ability at level 1; this is pretty strong.
Hound of Ill Omen: This is why you take this subclass, everything else is just cake. This is a free, persistent heightened spell that you can use in conjunction with other metamagics. You can summon this as a bonus action, then twin a spell targeting it and another. This lets you boost hold person/hold monster/blindness/etc. Any spell that has consistent saves becomes so much better with this effect. This is beyond gold and it comes at level 6 which means you get to use it frequently.
Shadow Walk: 120 ft teleport into and out of shadows as a bonus action. This is insane for positioning with battlefield control spells or for kiting for blasters. Yes it isn't the most flashy ability for a level 14 effective capstone. But it does make you incredibly elusive and getting into ideal positioning will never be easier than with this ability.
Umbral Form: For an 18th level ability, it isn't that great. 6 sorcery points to become a ghostly tank. This is an awesome effect but it comes too late. At 18th level, you have 9th level spells and much better uses for those 6 sorcery points. If it lasted longer and could be used decently out of combat, I'd probably weight it higher. Unfortunately it lasts for 1 minute and 6 sorcery points is expensive.

Storm SorcerySCAG and XAN
This has some pretty good ribbons and would be ideal for seafaring campaigns. Unfortunately, the bulk of the power of this archetype is backloaded, which means that most campaigns won't ever reach it. If you can find someway to be resilient enough to stand toe to toe with your enemies you can be an effective blaster (this is most often down with multiclassing cleric or paladin). Tempestuous magic is pretty strong if you're smart with it, letting you dance around the battlefield in ways most casters can't. Truthfully I wouldn't recommend this archetype for pure sorcerers as the other archetypes fulfill each of the 3 roles better. Still it can be fun for certain campaigns or if you want to roleplay a pirate mage or something. Does make a really strong multiclass though.
Wind Speaker: This grants you all four dialects of Primordial. As far as ribbon abilities go it's probably the best one. This goes up to sky blue if your campaign is going to be dealing with elemental creatures frequently or traveling to the elemental planes.
Tempestuous Magic: This is the only redeeming thing about this subclass in most campaigns (ones that aren't planning to reach the higher levels). The extra flight movement gives you a surprisingly high amount of mobility and in the hands of a clever player can be used to kite as it is effectively a poor man's cunning action.
Heart of the Storm: Resistance to two damage types (albeit infrequent ones). AOE damage effect when you cast certain spells. As a sorcery you generally don't want to be close enough to use this. This ability is one of the weakest level 6 sorc abilities, which unfortunately in most campaigns is meant to carry the weight of the subclass.
Storm Guide: Ribbon ability, which in most campaigns won't do anything. But hey as far as ribbons go its not terrible considering its basically free.
Storm's Fury: Actually not bad all things considered if it were given earlier. The damage is insignificant but it does help you create space. It isn't as good as other level 14 features like dragon wings, controlled chaos, or shadow step.
Wind Soul: Perma flight with high speed and immunity to two damage types. Grant your party members fly too - that's ridiculous utility. Only thing keeping this from being gold is that it comes rather late and most campaigns don't make it to level 18.

Wild MagicPHB
You'll either hate it or love it. Your group will either be good sports or piss poor sports about it. The most argument inducing archetype as of the current date. A lot of people view it as WotC legitimizing people's trolling of their party members. Still if you are with friends that don't take the game too seriously, this is insanely fun. I love getting the bad effects more than getting the good effects. Obviously a lot of this archetypes effects are up to the dm so talk wit them before playing this archetype. If you aren't rolling for wild surges at least 50% of the time on spell casts it will be underpowered and unsatisfying compared to other options. Truthfully I'd recommend using an expanded table for more fun and hilarity (not the game ending kind 10000+ effect one).
Wild Magic Surge: Love it or hate it. If you are playing this subclass it's likely that you live for this ****.
Tides of Chaos: This is why you play this subclass. Whenever you have the option to use this in combat, use it. Need to nail a counterspell check -> use it. Need to nail a perception check, use it. Use it! Use it! And cast spells afterwards to trigger wild surges to reset it. This gives you a ton of versatility due to how often it can reset. (If your dm isn't cooperative with this, don't play this subclass)
Bend Luck: Not as good as a bard's inspiration, but who cares. The only downside to this ability is that you'll use it so often that you blow through your sorcery points at an alarming rate. That's not a bad downside. Honestly incredibly fun to use, your allies will start seeing you as an asset. Just be careful because you are forgoing your 1 reaction to use this, so make sure you are positioned correctly.
Controlled Chaos: Pick the better of the two effects -> makes wild surges much more profitable. They start actually being somewhat reliable.
Spell Bombardment: Mathematically insignificant. At least its a level 18 feature so it doesn't really matter.

[morroiel]

Alert:
Athlete:
Actor:
Bountiful Luck:
Charger:
Crossbow Expert:
Defensive Duelist:
Dragon Fear:
Dragon Hide:
Drow High Magic:
Dual Wielder:
Dungeon Delver:
Durable:
Dwarven Fortitude:
Elemental Adept:
Elven Accuracy:
Fade Away:
Fey Teleportation:
Flames of Phlegethos:
Grappler:
Great Weapon Master:
Healer:
Heavily Armored:
Heavy Armor Master:
Infernal Constitution:
Inspiring Leader:
Keen Mind:
Lightly Armored:
Linguist:
Lucky:
Mage Slayer:
Magic Initiate:
Martial Adept:
Medium Armor Master:
Mobile:
Moderately Armored:
Mounted Combatant:
Observant:
Orcish Fury:
Polearm Master:
Prodigy:
Resilient:
Ritual Caster:
Savage Attacker:
Second Chance:
Sentinel:
Sharpshooter:
Shield Master:
Skilled:
Skulker:
Spell Sniper:
Squat Nimbleness:
Tavern Brawler:
Tough:
War Caster:
Weapon Master:
Wood Elf Magic:

[morroiel]

X Sorcerer / 2 Paladin:

X Sorcerer / 6 Paladin:





X Sorcerer / 1/2/3 Warlock:





X Sorcerer / 2 Paladin / 1/2/3 Warlock:

X Sorcerer / 6 Paladin / 1/2/3 Warlock:





X Sorcerer / 2 Cleric (tempest domain):

X Sorcerer / 6 Cleric (tempest domain):

[morroiel]

saved and placeholder 7 please ignore for hte moment

[morroiel]

Tiefling of Dispater for disguise self and detect thoughts

20th Level Complete List
Cantrips: Chill touch, Friends, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Shape Water
1st Level: Absorb Elements, Shield
2nd Level: Blindness/deafness, Phantasmal Force (C)
3rd Level: Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern (C), Tongues
4th Level: Banishment (C), Dimension Door
5th Level: Hold Monster (C), Telekinesis (C)
6th Level: Mass Suggestion
7th Level: Reverse Gravity (C)
8th Level: Dominate Monster (C)
9th Level: Wish

Level-up Guide
Level 1 Sorcerer: gain - shield, sleep; lose - nothing
Level 2 Sorcerer: gain - chromatic orb; lose - nothing
Level 3 Sorcerer: gain - phantasmal force; lose - nothing
Level 4 Sorcerer: gain - maximiliians earthen grasp, web; lose - sleep
Level 5 Sorcerer: gain - counterspell, hypnotic pattern; lose - chromatic orb
Level 6 Sorcerer: gain - haste; lose - nothing
Level 7 Sorcerer: gain - banishment; lose - nothing
Level 8 Sorcerer: gain - blindness/deafness, dimension door; lose - haste
Level 9 Sorcerer: gain - dominate person, telekinesis; lose - maximillians earthen grasp
Level 10 Sorcerer: gain - hold monster, tongues; lose - web
Level 11 Sorcerer: gain - mass suggestion; lose - nothing
Level 12 Sorcerer: gain - nothing; lose - nothing
Level 13 Sorcerer: gain - reverse gravity; lose - nothing
Level 14 Sorcerer: gain - nothing; lose - nothing
Level 15 Sorcerer: gain - absorb elements, dominate monster; lose - dominate person
Level 16 Sorcerer: gain - nothing; lose - nothing
Level 17 Sorcerer: gain - wish; lose - nothing



Tiefling of Dispater for disguise self and detect thoughts

20th Level Complete List
Cantrips: Chill touch, Friends, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Shape Water
1st Level: Absorb Elements, Shield
2nd Level: Phantasmal Force (C)
3rd Level: Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern (C), Tongues
4th Level: Banishment (C), Dimension Door, Greater Invis (C), Polymorph (C)
5th Level: Telekinesis (C)
6th Level: Mass Suggestion
7th Level: Reverse Gravity (C)
8th Level: Dominate Monster (C)
9th Level: Wish

Level-up Guide
Level 1 Sorcerer: gain - shield, sleep; lose - nothing
Level 2 Sorcerer: gain - chromatic orb; lose - nothing
Level 3 Sorcerer: gain - phantasmal force; lose - nothing
Level 4 Sorcerer: gain - maximiliians earthen grasp, web; lose - sleep
Level 5 Sorcerer: gain - counterspell, hypnotic pattern; lose - chromatic orb
Level 6 Sorcerer: gain - haste; lose - nothing
Level 7 Sorcerer: gain - banishment; lose - nothing
Level 8 Sorcerer: gain - polymorph, dimension door; lose - haste
Level 9 Sorcerer: gain - dominate person, telekinesis; lose - maximillians earthen grasp
Level 10 Sorcerer: gain - greater invis, tongues; lose - web
Level 11 Sorcerer: gain - mass suggestion; lose - nothing
Level 12 Sorcerer: gain - nothing; lose - nothing
Level 13 Sorcerer: gain - reverse gravity; lose - nothing
Level 14 Sorcerer: gain - nothing; lose - nothing
Level 15 Sorcerer: gain - absorb elements, dominate monster; lose - dominate person
Level 16 Sorcerer: gain - nothing; lose - nothing
Level 17 Sorcerer: gain - wish; lose - nothing

[morroiel]

saved and placeholder 9 please ignore for hte moment

[Quoxis]

Pink is great? What happened to sky blue and gold? Using orange is a bit confusing too, close to the gold i'm used to from other guides.

[Everstar]

Pink is great? What happened to sky blue and gold? Using orange is a bit confusing too, close to the gold i'm used to from other guides.

Second this. It makes it harder to read.

[EvilAnagram]

I sense a less-than-subtle dig at my guide. I plan to update with Xanathar's classes when they're released. Apparently, moderately popular class guides don't secure you an unsolicited early release copy.

[X3r4ph]

I third the colors. I have zero understands.

[Quoxis]

I sense a less-than-subtle dig at my guide. I plan to update with Xanathar's classes when they're released. Apparently, moderately popular class guides don't secure you an unsolicited early release copy.

"Moderately"? When did you get that humble, o lord of n00b guidance?

[morroiel]

Pink is great? What happened to sky blue and gold? Using orange is a bit confusing too, close to the gold i'm used to from other guides.

Fixed. Hopefully that's better.

[morroiel]

I sense a less-than-subtle dig at my guide. I plan to update with Xanathar's classes when they're released. Apparently, moderately popular class guides don't secure you an unsolicited early release copy.

Don't take it personally, you have a lot of great ideas in your guide. I certainly owe a lot to you and guru with regards to analyzing sorcerers. However both of those guides (yours and guru's) are seriously out dated. You are missing 3 whole UAs which won't come out in Xans - so saying you are waiting for xan's doesn't really cut it for them. His guide is missing all the non-phb archetypes. Your guide is missing the updated rulings on metamagics -> and is heavily slanted for a blaster rather than a fair representation of all 3 archetypes (imo). Further you rate things separately rather than for their individual impact on the 3 defining sorcerer roles.

Hopefully you don't take it negatively but it seems like you already have. I'm mainly doing this as a reference for myself so that I can point people to a sorcerer guide. Sorcerers are probably the biggest pitfall trap for new players (even veteran dnd players can screw it up in an unrecoverable manner). My aim is to have an all-in-one guide that is updated with content and most importantly new rulings, which drastically alter how things play. For instance, the new careful spell ruling makes it a noob trap. I saw a hole and aim to fill it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Could I request that a Unearthed Arcana tag be added to all that stuff for people looking through this guide? Not everybody knows offhand what is and isn't officially published. A superscriptlike this would look nice, or maybe just a basic parenthesis (like so).

[morroiel]

Could I request that a Unearthed Arcana tag be added to all that stuff for people looking through this guide? Not everybody knows offhand what is and isn't officially published. A superscriptlike this would look nice, or maybe just a basic parenthesis (like so).

I was planning to do something similar but will use the superscript suggestion. Thanks!

[EvilAnagram]

Don't take it personally, you have a lot of great ideas in your guide. I certainly owe a lot to you and guru with regards to analyzing sorcerers. However both of those guides (yours and guru's) are seriously out dated. You are missing 3 whole UAs which won't come out in Xans - so saying you are waiting for xan's doesn't really cut it for them. His guide is missing all the non-phb archetypes. Your guide is missing the updated rulings on metamagics -> and is heavily slanted for a blaster rather than a fair representation of all 3 archetypes (imo). Further you rate things separately rather than for their individual impact on the 3 defining sorcerer roles.

Hopefully you don't take it negatively but it seems like you already have. I'm mainly doing this as a reference for myself so that I can point people to a sorcerer guide. Sorcerers are probably the biggest pitfall trap for new players (even veteran dnd players can screw it up in an unrecoverable manner). My aim is to have an all-in-one guide that is updated with content and most importantly new rulings, which drastically alter how things play. For instance, the new careful spell ruling makes it a noob trap. I saw a hole and aim to fill it.

I'm not mad. I think it's great that people are putting their own spin on things, especially since I'm only going to be covering published material in mine. Someone who wants to cover all the UA stuff is clearly filling a niche that I'm leaving alone. Good luck with the rest if your guide!

[Pex]

Be wary of this particular ruling: if you use the cantrip first, technically by RAW you can't quicken a lvl 1+ spell. If your DM is a stickler about this he's kinda being slimy but just be careful.



I'm calling this out. Every time someone says this no one speaks up. I'm speaking up because another thread talked about this very thing by my hand, and I want it cleared up once and for all.

Does or does not 5E care about the order in which you cast a cantrip and non-cantrip in a round? You're saying 5E does. Everyone in that other thread was saying no 5E doesn't.

[morroiel]

I'm calling this out. Every time someone says this no one speaks up. I'm speaking up because another thread talked about this very thing by my hand, and I want it cleared up once and for all.

Does or does not 5E care about the order in which you cast a cantrip and non-cantrip in a round? You're saying 5E does. Everyone in that other thread was saying no 5E doesn't.

Page 202 of PHB: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

Scenario 1:
You quicken a spell (cantrip or leveled spell) to cast it as a bonus action, then you use your action to cast a cantrip. Valid.

Scenario 2:
You quicken a spell (cantrip) to cast it as a bonus action, then you use your action to cast a leveled spell. Invalid.

Scenario 3:
You use your action to cast a leveled spell. You then use quicken spell to try to cast it as a bonus action. Invalid.

Scenario 4:
You use your action to cast a cantrip. You then use quicken spell to try to cast a leveled spell. Invalid according to RAW wording quoted above.

Scenario 5:
You use your action to cast a cantrip. You then use quicken spell to try to cast a cantrip. Invalid according to RAW wording quoted above. Almost always valid RAI.

Hopefully that makes sense. Granted I personally think if you are a DM and stick to this RAW ruling, you are a bad DM.

[PeteNutButter]

Extended Spell
You only get 4 metamagics and can only use 1 at a time with the sole exception of combinations with empowered. There has NEVER been a time where I've thought to myself I wish I had extended spell. You are far better off just using font of magic to cast the spell again. This is probably the worst metamagic option and wouldn't even recommend it under RP circumstances.


Why does everyone hate on extend spell? Throw it on an 8-hour duration spell like, say Aid (via divine soul or MC), and you can give the whole party loads of free hps at no spell cost for 8 hours after your long rest is completed.

It's an incredibly powerful combo, with the only downside being potentially not having those slots available if you get attacked in the night.

Death ward is another great candidate for this, and I'm sure there are others, which can be abused, mostly by divine souls.

The same is also true for any warlock MC, that extends 1 hour duration spells.

[TheUser]

Don't take it personally, you have a lot of great ideas in your guide. I certainly owe a lot to you and guru with regards to analyzing sorcerers. However both of those guides (yours and guru's) are seriously out dated. You are missing 3 whole UAs which won't come out in Xans - so saying you are waiting for xan's doesn't really cut it for them. His guide is missing all the non-phb archetypes. Your guide is missing the updated rulings on metamagics -> and is heavily slanted for a blaster rather than a fair representation of all 3 archetypes (imo). Further you rate things separately rather than for their individual impact on the 3 defining sorcerer roles.

Hopefully you don't take it negatively but it seems like you already have. I'm mainly doing this as a reference for myself so that I can point people to a sorcerer guide. Sorcerers are probably the biggest pitfall trap for new players (even veteran dnd players can screw it up in an unrecoverable manner). My aim is to have an all-in-one guide that is updated with content and most importantly new rulings, which drastically alter how things play. For instance, the new careful spell ruling makes it a noob trap. I saw a hole and aim to fill it.

Guru here, I don't use UA and never will, it's essentially homebrew that is playtest material, it's going to be unbalanced by its very nature (hence why you rate pheonix sorcery so high). My guide has updated metamagic rulings however :D

I personally disagree with your color ratings on empower and Twinned but that's just from a personal approach of risk averse sorcerery. Losing concentration on a twinned spell is twice as ****ty as losing it on a solo spell, also mid-high level the sorcery point becomes egregiously high.

Have you read my advanced guide or just my original?

[Arcangel4774]

Could you elaborate, morroiel, in what makes scenario 4 and 5 invalid RAW? I read nothing in the quoted text, or phb in general, that suggests a fixed order.

Edit: or if somebody could direct me to thread that it is spoken about. That would work to so as not to hijack the guide at all.

[Jerrykhor]

Why does everyone hate on extend spell? Throw it on an 8-hour duration spell like, say Aid (via divine soul or MC), and you can give the whole party loads of free hps at no spell cost for 8 hours after your long rest is completed.

It's an incredibly powerful combo, with the only downside being potentially not having those slots available if you get attacked in the night.

Death ward is another great candidate for this, and I'm sure there are others, which can be abused, mostly by divine souls.

The same is also true for any warlock MC, that extends 1 hour duration spells.

Because it sucks, plain and simple. Most of the spells you mentioned would wear off/expire early due to combat anyways, so it seldom last the full duration. Nor do you really need that long of a duration.

Also, I don't know any DM that bothers checking if your Mage Armour really only last 8 hours. They just treat it like it lasts the whole day, and I don't want to annoy my DM by constantly asking how much time has passed in game.

But mostly it sucks because sorcs have a small spell list, and its really terrible to pick mediocre spells that work well with one Metamagic that is not even that good, rather than just pick good spells and good metamagics

[PeteNutButter]

Because it sucks, plain and simple. Most of the spells you mentioned would wear off/expire early due to combat anyways, so it seldom last the full duration. Nor do you really need that long of a duration.

Also, I don't know any DM that bothers checking if your Mage Armour really only last 8 hours. They just treat it like it lasts the whole day, and I don't want to annoy my DM by constantly asking how much time has passed in game.

You seem to be missing the point(s). The fact that you spend spells slots the PREVIOUS day for buffs that last all day into the next adventuring day is the point. Aid does not wear off and lasts all day granting the party 10-20 increased max hit points at tier 2. Death ward only “wears off” if it does its job.

The real benefit is spells at no cost to the spell slots of the current adventuring day.

[Jerrykhor]

You seem to be missing the point(s). The fact that you spend spells slots the PREVIOUS day for buffs that last all day into the next adventuring day is the point. Aid does not wear off and lasts all day granting the party 10-20 increased max hit points at tier 2. Death ward only “wears off” if it does its job.

The real benefit is spells at no cost to the spell slots of the current adventuring day.

Temp hp lasts until you finish a long rest, so Aid cannot work.

[PeteNutButter]

Temp hp lasts until you finish a long rest, so Aid cannot work.

Read the spell...

EDIT:
"Hi party, I'm a 13th level sorcerer, and you 3 are going to have an extra 30 max hit points all day (any remaining PCs only get 25), and we all have death wards before we start the day. I also have inspiring leader and it stacks so we all get another 18 temp hps each short rest. Oh and what did this cost? Just one of my metamagics, a feat, and two spells known. I have full spell slots (and SP) ready for the adventuring day."
"Welcome to the F*cking Team!"

If you ask me that blows empower spell out of the water.

[Jerrykhor]

Ah, sorry. I have no idea why I keep remembering Aid as adding temp hp, when it is max and current hp. Maybe its because I have not seen it in action before. Somehow all the cleric players I play with just don't use this spell.

[PeteNutButter]

Ah, sorry. I have no idea why I keep remembering Aid as adding temp hp, when it is max and current hp. Maybe its because I have not seen it in action before. Somehow all the cleric players I play with just don't use this spell.

Yeah, people somehow forget/never realize that it's basically a weaker version of mass cure wounds, at level 3. It's a fantastic spell that does not get the attention it deserves, and combined with extend, is almost an exploit.

[Puh Laden]

Page 202 of PHB: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

Scenario 1:
You quicken a spell (cantrip or leveled spell) to cast it as a bonus action, then you use your action to cast a cantrip. Valid.

Scenario 2:
You quicken a spell (cantrip) to cast it as a bonus action, then you use your action to cast a leveled spell. Invalid.

Scenario 3:
You use your action to cast a leveled spell. You then use quicken spell to try to cast it as a bonus action. Invalid.

Scenario 4:
You use your action to cast a cantrip. You then use quicken spell to try to cast a leveled spell. Invalid according to RAW wording quoted above.

Scenario 5:
You use your action to cast a cantrip. You then use quicken spell to try to cast a cantrip. Invalid according to RAW wording quoted above. Almost always valid RAI.

Hopefully that makes sense. Granted I personally think if you are a DM and stick to this RAW ruling, you are a bad DM.

The wording says nothing about the order. Scenario four IS valid according to RAW.

[EvilAnagram]

The wording says nothing about the order. Scenario four IS valid according to RAW.

The wording places the actions in temporal order. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, then you can only cast a cantrip that costs an action.

Nothing about that wording allows the same suspension of the generic rule (no casting more than one spell per turn) if you cast a cantrip with an action first.

If you bonus action cast, then you can still cast a cantrip.

[LeonBH]

Curious to see what else you put out in this guide. However, I'd like to disagree with your Manipulator picks for metamagic. Level 3 picks should be Heighten Spell and Subtle Spell.

Twin Spell will greatly help you in terms of combat (chiefly in damage), and Heighten Spell will make your save-or-sucks land. However, usually, Twinned Suggestion is not necessary, and neither is Twinned Phantasmal Force (just stating these two spells as examples, but I'm representing the single-target manipulator class spells here).

When Suggestion/Phantasmal Force do become necessary, you will most certainly want to Heighten them instead. You don't care to manipulate the boss and his chief lieutenant. If the boss is under your control, then either the chief lieutenant is as well, or the chief lieutenant is dead.

Source: my personal experience playing a Twin Spell/Heighten Spell manipulative Sorcerer. I gave up Twin Spell and swapped it out for Subtle Spell later, with my DM's permission, after I realized how wrong my level 3 choices were.

In that time, I almost always used Twin Spell for damage. When I needed to manipulate someone, it was always used with Heighten Spell, never Twinned.

EDIT:
The reason why you need to pick Heightened Spell at level 3 if you're a manipulation type Sorcerer, is because at low levels, your save DC is going to be low, while the pay-off of actually dominating the target successfully will be high. The 3 Sorcery Points this will cost you is worth it because it can end an encounter, if you get your hands on the boss monster's brain.

Under ideal scenarios, a successful casting of a manipulation type spell will not only remove one enemy from the battle, but add one ally to your ranks. Potentially permanently, even after the spell's effect ends, depending on how persuasive you were.

You never use Heighten Spell on a damage spell. You always keep 3 Sorcery Points at the ready for the right moment. It's not meant to be spammed, it's meant to end encounters and prevent TPKs.

EDIT 2:
Your level 10 pick as a Manipulation class Sorcerer should be Quicken Spell. This is because of its amazing synergy with Minor Illusion. This is the only way to produce sounds for silent illusion spells (Disguise Self and Silent Image) in the same round. Major Image also needs your action every round for you to move it, and now you can both move it and cast other spells.

[Chugger]

morroiel, I feel bad because you've done a lot of work to create and give us a really good sorc guide, and I see a buncha people nit-picking and no one congratulating or thanking you!

Thank you. Congratulations - and please feel good!

Your take on sorcery has helped me understand this class better. And I value this. And yes, as you said, the other guides are good, too. Each guide-writer takes on a class the way he or she sees it or in a way that makes the most sense to them, and then studying several guides we get a really good "big picture". So again, well done - please feel good about this - and please keep more guides coming (and the rest of this - I'm curious what you have to say about multi-classing, as I'm planning on a sorc-something multi soon)!

[EvilAnagram]

morroiel, I feel bad because you've done a lot of work to create and give us a really good sorc guide, and I see a buncha people nit-picking and no one congratulating or thanking you!

Thank you. Congratulations - and please feel good!

Your take on sorcery has helped me understand this class better. And I value this. And yes, as you said, the other guides are good, too. Each guide-writer takes on a class the way he or she sees it or in a way that makes the most sense to them, and then studying several guides we get a really good "big picture". So again, well done - please feel good about this - and please keep more guides coming (and the rest of this - I'm curious what you have to say about multi-classing, as I'm planning on a sorc-something multi soon)!

Seconded! I believe I did forget my manners earlier. Another point of view is always worthwhile.

[LeonBH]

morroiel, I feel bad because you've done a lot of work to create and give us a really good sorc guide, and I see a buncha people nit-picking and no one congratulating or thanking you!

Well, gee.

Good work on the guide morroiel. Don't take my "nitpicks" too seriously. Manipulation class Sorcerers are somewhat of my forte, and I've never seen a guide that involves them that I could potentially contribute to before, so I may have gotten a little over zealous. :)

[Chugger]

Having just thanked and congratulated you, I'm not actually going to disagree - because your analysis of Extended for pure sorcerers is spot on. I also can't think of any reason why they'd want it.

The only exception I've come across where Extended makes sense is in a multi, like where you go Bard to at least six, one-dip in life cleric, and then do at least a 3 dip into sorc to get Extended so you can be a game-breakingly good healer, at least as long as you can keep concentration going on your aura of vitality. You probably know this and will address this when you cover multis (again I hope you will cover multis) - and a lot of people say a dip into sorc for extended is overkill here. Others say they like it - 20 rounds of healing 2d6 plus the life cleric bonus is quite good, they say. I've not played it, so I only know what others have told me. Thanks again.

[Chugger]

Well, gee.

Good work on the guide morroiel. Don't take my "nitpicks" too seriously. Manipulation class Sorcerers are somewhat of my forte, and I've never seen a guide that involves them that I could potentially contribute to before, so I may have gotten a little over zealous. :)

I was writing that while you were posting yours - I didn't even see you saying that!

And yeah, anyone posting here needs to have a - ahem - a thick skin. :D

And yes we should ask a guide writer to fix stuff, like using pink and all that. But someone has to be kind to guide writer and say thanks - right? Or ... are we really that awful...? :smallbiggrin:

[Chugger]

Seconded! I believe I did forget my manners earlier. Another point of view is always worthwhile.

Nicely said! Thanks! I wasn't meaning to single anyone out and be rude myself - just mostly wanted to make the guide writer feel good about their work. Again, thanks for this, EvilAnagram.

[JellyPooga]

What are we looking for in a race?
Allows 16 starting charisma - this is mandatory, all races without this are automatically red.

I disagree. Having a 16 starting Charisma is nice, even preferable, but by no means is it a necessity. By your own colour definition, several races that do not offer a 16 starting charisma are valid choices for more reasons than solely RP and as such could be considered Purple, Black or even Blue.

E.g. Hill Dwarf is a great choice for a Sorcerer; bonuses to Con and Wis is sweet sweet sweet for any character, the former being particularly useful for a character looking to maintain concentration and the additional HP make up somewhat for the low HD of the Sorcerer.

[Chugger]

I disagree. Having a 16 starting Charisma is nice, even preferable, but by no means is it a necessity. By your own colour definition, several races that do not offer a 16 starting charisma are valid choices for more reasons than solely RP and as such could be considered Purple, Black or even Blue.

This guide is tagged optimization, so I think a 16 cha really is necessary to be optimized. In 5e you can get by fine w/out being optimized, but I've played with non-optimized characters - and they tend to do gimpy damage or miss more often (and are the ones I'm healing back to life more often, though your example would be a very survivable sorc, the hill dwarf - but waiting til 12 to get 20 cha would come at a price).

So you're right, it's not a necessity to have a 16 starting cha in 5e, but it is to be optimized.

[Arcangel4774]

The wording places the actions in temporal order. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, then you can only cast a cantrip that costs an action.

Nothing about that wording allows the same suspension of the generic rule (no casting more than one spell per turn) if you cast a cantrip with an action first.

If you bonus action cast, then you can still cast a cantrip.

As far as i can tell that generic rule (no casting more than one spell per turn) doesnt exist. A sage advice mentions that there is no rule about it as well, but im not aure if there has been an errata. There is only the practical restriction of limited action economy, and restrictions within the same turn when a bonus action spell is used. Further more, the bonus action spell rule doesnt specify an ordered timing, only that within the same turn any other spells must be cantrips.

[Pex]

The wording places the actions in temporal order. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, then you can only cast a cantrip that costs an action.

Nothing about that wording allows the same suspension of the generic rule (no casting more than one spell per turn) if you cast a cantrip with an action first.

If you bonus action cast, then you can still cast a cantrip.


As far as i can tell that generic rule (no casting more than one spell per turn) doesnt exist. A sage advice mentions that there is no rule about it as well, but im not aure if there has been an errata. There is only the practical restriction of limited action economy, and restrictions within the same turn when a bonus action spell is used. Further more, the bonus action spell rule doesnt specify an ordered timing, only that within the same turn any other spells must be cantrips.

Consider this almost famous riddle.

I have two American coins that add up to 30 cents. One of them is not a nickel. What are my two coins?

The answer is a quarter and a nickel. The quarter is not a nickel satisfying the condition of the riddle. Objecting to having a nickel be one of my coins is saying order matters in cantrip/non-cantrip. You're reading more into the condition than is there.

[Puh Laden]

The wording places the actions in temporal order. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, then you can only cast a cantrip that costs an action.

Nothing about that wording allows the same suspension of the generic rule (no casting more than one spell per turn) if you cast a cantrip with an action first.

If you bonus action cast, then you can still cast a cantrip.

There is no "if" or "then." There is just the statement "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." If someone had no knowledge of the rule and I quoted that statement in regards to the rule, they wouldn't ask "Is it before or after it talks about casting a spell with a bonus action?" There is no implied order. Even sage advice, in regards to the shield master feat, essentially said that you can "commit" to an action before taking it for purposes of abilities that depend on that action being taken (like bonus action shoving with a shield and the Attack action). The order of the statements doesn't matter. If it did, they would have to come up with convoluted wording to get their meaning across.

[JellyPooga]

This guide is tagged optimization, so I think a 16 cha really is necessary to be optimized. In 5e you can get by fine w/out being optimized, but I've played with non-optimized characters - and they tend to do gimpy damage or miss more often (and are the ones I'm healing back to life more often, though your example would be a very survivable sorc, the hill dwarf - but waiting til 12 to get 20 cha would come at a price).

So you're right, it's not a necessity to have a 16 starting cha in 5e, but it is to be optimized.

Which brings up the subject of subjective optimisation; it's no good being "optimised" for offense (in this case Charisma) if your character is dead from lack of HP, for example. By the OPs colour definitions and statement, any race that doesn't allow for a 16 starting Cha is suitable solely for RP reasons; Hill Dwarf (among others) does not necessarily suit that category because it offers a significant bonus to areas the Sorcerer wants a bonus to (namely Con, Wis and HP), despite not offering a Cha bonus.

Yes, there is the argument for offence being the best defence and all that jazz, but there's multiple definitions of what's "optimal" and disregarding, off hand, all races that don't offer a Charisma bonus ignores many possibilities, just as disregarding any race that doesn't offer a Dex bonus ignores the possibilities of the Rogue class.

[morroiel]

Which brings up the subject of subjective optimisation; it's no good being "optimised" for offense (in this case Charisma) if your character is dead from lack of HP, for example. By the OPs colour definitions and statement, any race that doesn't allow for a 16 starting Cha is suitable solely for RP reasons; Hill Dwarf (among others) does not necessarily suit that category because it offers a significant bonus to areas the Sorcerer wants a bonus to (namely Con, Wis and HP), despite not offering a Cha bonus.

Yes, there is the argument for offence being the best defence and all that jazz, but there's multiple definitions of what's "optimal" and disregarding, off hand, all races that don't offer a Charisma bonus ignores many possibilities, just as disregarding any race that doesn't offer a Dex bonus ignores the possibilities of the Rogue class.

Here's the thing bounded accuracy means that every bonus to your DCs and to-hit matter. This is doubly true for a sorcerer with heighten. There's a reason you take straight charisma with your ASI's till you get to 20 because if you work out the math it is the most efficient time and time again.

If you start with 15 or 14 charisma more likely you are forgoing a feat. That's a feat you can spend on lucky, warcaster, etc. Both of these are worth more defensively than what the hill dwarf offers. And technically a race like drow could theoretically (bad optimization) forgo an ASI at lvl 4 to take warcaster and be better at maintaining concentration than your hill dwarf by a long way.

The racial section of this guide is not finished - there are some non-starting 16 charisma races that are valid but what they give has to be massive to make up the gap. This is even more true given that the stupidity that is elven accuracy now exists.

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts, take care friend!

[morroiel]

Nicely said! Thanks! I wasn't meaning to single anyone out and be rude myself - just mostly wanted to make the guide writer feel good about their work. Again, thanks for this, EvilAnagram.

Thanks for the kind words - I'm happy that people think it will be helpful. I'm going to continue working on it - I'm planning for the multiclass section to be nearly comprehensive.

[morroiel]

Curious to see what else you put out in this guide. However, I'd like to disagree with your Manipulator picks for metamagic. Level 3 picks should be Heighten Spell and Subtle Spell.

Twin Spell will greatly help you in terms of combat (chiefly in damage), and Heighten Spell will make your save-or-sucks land. However, usually, Twinned Suggestion is not necessary, and neither is Twinned Phantasmal Force (just stating these two spells as examples, but I'm representing the single-target manipulator class spells here).

When Suggestion/Phantasmal Force do become necessary, you will most certainly want to Heighten them instead. You don't care to manipulate the boss and his chief lieutenant. If the boss is under your control, then either the chief lieutenant is as well, or the chief lieutenant is dead.

Source: my personal experience playing a Twin Spell/Heighten Spell manipulative Sorcerer. I gave up Twin Spell and swapped it out for Subtle Spell later, with my DM's permission, after I realized how wrong my level 3 choices were.

In that time, I almost always used Twin Spell for damage. When I needed to manipulate someone, it was always used with Heighten Spell, never Twinned.

EDIT:
The reason why you need to pick Heightened Spell at level 3 if you're a manipulation type Sorcerer, is because at low levels, your save DC is going to be low, while the pay-off of actually dominating the target successfully will be high. The 3 Sorcery Points this will cost you is worth it because it can end an encounter, if you get your hands on the boss monster's brain.

Under ideal scenarios, a successful casting of a manipulation type spell will not only remove one enemy from the battle, but add one ally to your ranks. Potentially permanently, even after the spell's effect ends, depending on how persuasive you were.

You never use Heighten Spell on a damage spell. You always keep 3 Sorcery Points at the ready for the right moment. It's not meant to be spammed, it's meant to end encounters and prevent TPKs.

EDIT 2:
Your level 10 pick as a Manipulation class Sorcerer should be Quicken Spell. This is because of its amazing synergy with Minor Illusion. This is the only way to produce sounds for silent illusion spells (Disguise Self and Silent Image) in the same round. Major Image also needs your action every round for you to move it, and now you can both move it and cast other spells.

Here's the issue a lot of spellcasting and metamagics are DM and party composition dependent. The more legendary resistances a boss has the worse heighten is. The higher number of monsters there are the worse off heighten is. Additionally it has a huge opportunity cost at early levels due to you having a small pool of sorcery points and slots. It only really becomes usable with any sense of frequency at about 6/7. Unfortunately most campaigns spend over 40-60% of their time below this level.

Additionally you can cover heighten pretty well by targeting low saves -> diversifying your control spells.

The reason why I value twinned spell so highly is that it is highly versatile. It can ramp up your damage, your control, your buffs, etc. etc. It doesn't have a fixed sorcery point cost and scales nicely as you gain your sorcery points. Lastly, you can do some pretty insane things with twinned control spells and/or debuffs/buffs (I'll list these in the hints or tricks).

I 100% agree that subtle is a must take for a manipulative sorcerer though. Agree that quicken is a strong contender for lvl 10 manipulator and honestly I think its a toss up between it and heighten. If I was starting at level 10 I'd probably take heighten, quicken, and subtle spell for a manipulator sorcerer, but the fact that most campaigns don't get to 10 till the very end means that you have to really make the two lower ones work for you.

I appreciate your feedback and definitely can see your points. Thanks for the input, friend!

[morroiel]

Guru here, I don't use UA and never will, it's essentially homebrew that is playtest material, it's going to be unbalanced by its very nature (hence why you rate pheonix sorcery so high). My guide has updated metamagic rulings however :D

I personally disagree with your color ratings on empower and Twinned but that's just from a personal approach of risk averse sorcerery. Losing concentration on a twinned spell is twice as ****ty as losing it on a solo spell, also mid-high level the sorcery point becomes egregiously high.

Have you read my advanced guide or just my original?

I've read both of your guides :).

UA is definitely an issue with balance but a lot of people (myself included) allow playtest material as after all this is what its for. Just a note I rate phoenix sorcery really badly -> all of its features are tied to a VERY limited resource.

As far as empower and twinned, I think part of the empower issue is that I've done the math and in the long term it makes VERY little difference on average. I will say that I agree with yours and others general sentiment that it is very powerful for morale -> turning a low roll to a high roll always feels nice. You are right that it is much lower risk than twinned but twinned just has so much versatility. No other metamagic can do so many different things: twin damage spells for increased nova, twin concentration control spells to take two enemies out, twin high level spells to effectively double those slots, etc. etc. The list of creative uses for twinned suggestion, phantasmal force, etc. are absolutely ridiculous.

Granted upcasting some spells can function as a pseudo twinned spell, so ultimately it depends on a lot of factors (what level you start out at etc.).

[Chugger]

Which brings up the subject of subjective optimisation; it's no good being "optimised" for offense (in this case Charisma) if your character is dead from lack of HP, for example. By the OPs colour definitions and statement, any race that doesn't allow for a 16 starting Cha is suitable solely for RP reasons; Hill Dwarf (among others) does not necessarily suit that category because it offers a significant bonus to areas the Sorcerer wants a bonus to (namely Con, Wis and HP), despite not offering a Cha bonus.

Yes, there is the argument for offence being the best defence and all that jazz, but there's multiple definitions of what's "optimal" and disregarding, off hand, all races that don't offer a Charisma bonus ignores many possibilities, just as disregarding any race that doesn't offer a Dex bonus ignores the possibilities of the Rogue class.

That's a good point. And that's why there are different guides and so on. Where I play there is usually "player has at least somewhat optimized" and "player is not at all optimized". As someone who is kind and doesn't want others losing their char or having to fork out lots of gold for a rez, I spend a lot of round pouring healing potions down the throats of dead non-optimzed players.

The main problem is that people go for being a teeny bit good at everything. "Oh, it's okay, I have a 12 in Con. That way I could have a 13 Cha to help the party with Cha checks." This is a would-be front line barbarian saying that. He doesn't understand that the face - the pal sorc or lock - will handle most cha checks, that we don't need him to be pretty - we need him to hit hard and to take damage.

Now what you're saying is to take a generally offensive char and optimize for defense, which could work - but that would have to be a special subset of a sorc guide imho - how to make a hill dw work as a sorc. If draconic and with 16 con that's 6+5 = 11 health to start and 4+5=9 per level after that. But strong offense really is often the best defense, and there is a price for that low cha, not-topped cha.

I don't think any guide can or should try to cover _every_ nuance in a class. And us talking about exceptions helps people who really want to know. At the end of the day I'd rather have a sorc in the party optimized for offense. When they get jumped they have other tricks for getting out of that besides a high hit point pool. And if a really tough monster has gotten on them, I don't see a lot of situations where having one extra hit point per level will allow them to stand there and take the damage while casting back. No, you misty step and firebolt - or you mirror image and cantrip something - or you quicken an offensive spell and use dodge as your main action - you don't really need that extra health to do these things and live - what you need imho is a higher chance of the firebolt hitting or the creature missing its save. Sure there are situations where a bit extra health is nice - there are situations where hitting and no monster save is better again imo. I think the guide is fine.

(edit - there could be rounds where a lvl 8 sorc having 8 more hp would rock - would save the day --- and there are going to be rounds where a sorc with 8 fewer hit points but more cha just makes his rolls and saves the day ... until someone commits it to an algorithm and runs it, we're left guessing which is better for us - if you wanna go w/ more hp that's cool - it will mostly work - I prefer higher cha - and again I think the guide works and is internally consistent based on its theme - but yes, there are other ways to do this, too -- I'm realizing I might be being dense on one of your points, that "red" may be too harsh for a rating for non-16 races ... yeah, I can see that, and I can see the writer maybe wanting to make a point by going extreme on this - meh, the guide writer has a focus, I'm not going to mess w/ him on this - but if it bugs you, you're right and free to point this out - I could be wrong)

[JellyPooga]

Here's the thing bounded accuracy means that every bonus to your DCs and to-hit matter. This is doubly true for a sorcerer with heighten. There's a reason you take straight charisma with your ASI's till you get to 20 because if you work out the math it is the most efficient time and time again.

I differ here. Bounded Accuracy means precisely the opposite; because the ceiling is so much lower than it could be (as it was in previous editions) you don't need every last bonus you can eke out of a character and Heighten Spell lessens that need even further because it grants a functionally much higher bonus than ASI's ever will. Sorcerers with Heighten Spell, perhaps moreso than other full-casters, can afford a lower Charisma than might be desired. Whether or not the bonuses those races that don't grant a Cha-bonus are worth the lack is open to debate, but they certainly shouldn't be handwaved away as worthless from an optimisation point of view. Likewise, taking ASI's to get Cha to 20 is by no means always the most efficient or optimal path; I won't deny that it's certainly a worthy choice, but that doesn't mean other choices should be ignored until Cha is at 20.

I'm looking forward to the completion of your guide, but I'd caution against optimising for a one-dimensional character. The benefits of having a less than fully specialised character are certainly hard to calculate, but should be considered; after all, by a certain metric, "power" can be equated with "versatility" (e.g. it's why the Wizard is considered powerful).

[Chugger]

Thanks for the kind words - I'm happy that people think it will be helpful. I'm going to continue working on it - I'm planning for the multiclass section to be nearly comprehensive.

My pleasure. I've been playing with several sorcs in various modules lately - some low level and some medium level - and while I'm hardly a sorc expert I've read the other guides and have been learning from my sorc-playing friends. And while yes we can make sorc work other ways - 5e is flexible and forgiving - the point is that I can tell your guide is good, it's well thought out, and following your advice would result in a sorc character who is very useful. Your guide is tight. Now yeah, someone can come along and say "but we can get advantages in these situations if..." - but the basic thrust of your guide is still very meaningful and useful to players - it still is solid and works and overall is very useful. Maybe we just think alike on this, but I think there are some objective factors (of utility) that you've hit on that are (at least somewhat) universal, at least as far as 5e is concerned.

[jaappleton]

It's always good to have multiple guides with different points of views, as to balance pros and cons as seen through different sets of eyes.

Heck, I love Clerics, but there's no single Cleric handbook I praise as gospel. Pun fully intended, I apologize for nothing!

Now, if allowing UA, and especially Xanathar's, I have to say that Tiefling makes for a stellar Sorcerer race. Resistance to Fire. If any non-Fire Dragonic, or Storm, resistance to another damage type (two if Storm). Now consider that Feat where Tieflings get resistance to Cold and Poison. I believe Shadow Sorcs might get resistance to Necrotic? Haven't read the new write-up in XGtE yet.

Plus, I believe that Sorcs now get access to Absorb Elements (FINALLY!), making the right Sorc build incredibly resilient to most non-weapon damage types. They can be very sneaky resilient, despist the d6 HD.

[morroiel]

I differ here. Bounded Accuracy means precisely the opposite; because the ceiling is so much lower than it could be (as it was in previous editions) you don't need every last bonus you can eke out of a character and Heighten Spell lessens that need even further because it grants a functionally much higher bonus than ASI's ever will. Sorcerers with Heighten Spell, perhaps moreso than other full-casters, can afford a lower Charisma than might be desired. Whether or not the bonuses those races that don't grant a Cha-bonus are worth the lack is open to debate, but they certainly shouldn't be handwaved away as worthless from an optimisation point of view. Likewise, taking ASI's to get Cha to 20 is by no means always the most efficient or optimal path; I won't deny that it's certainly a worthy choice, but that doesn't mean other choices should be ignored until Cha is at 20.

I'm looking forward to the completion of your guide, but I'd caution against optimising for a one-dimensional character. The benefits of having a less than fully specialised character are certainly hard to calculate, but should be considered; after all, by a certain metric, "power" can be equated with "versatility" (e.g. it's why the Wizard is considered powerful).

Not going to lay out the mathematics of it here as to do it properly would take several pages but heighten increases the value (on average) of incremental increases. If I have time after I complete the guide, maybe I'll outline why charisma modifier (or casting stat modifiers in general) should always be maximized for full casters.

[TheUser]

Not going to lay out the mathematics of it here as to do it properly would take several pages but heighten increases the value (on average) of incremental increases. If I have time after I complete the guide, maybe I'll outline why charisma modifier (or casting stat modifiers in general) should always be maximized for full casters.

It's a pretty universally accepted trope for 5e caster building (especially sorcerers) to maximize their casting stat. My own guide emphasizes that not only does it affect all your spells and attacks but also some of your metamagics. The math is pretty simple and does not take "several pages." The higher your DC the better disadvantage on saves becomes if you approach it from the angle of "how often do they succeed on my spell saving throws?" As opposed to, "How often do my spells succeed?" the value is very visible.

Let's look at mid tier (level 8); +3 proficiency modifier and +4 or +5 from charisma.

DC 15 vs DC 16

Let's assume the target has +2 to the specific save (moderate stat and no proficiency).

That means they need a 13 or higher for the player with +4 charisma modifier, which at disadvantage is a 16% chance to succeed (they have to succeed on two rolls that each have a 40% chance).

If you have +5 Charisma and the DC is 16 then their chance of succeeding is now 12.25% (35%2) Now that may seem like a small boost of 84% -> 87.75% success rate but it also means that the rate at which the enemy succeeds has dropped almost 25% (12.25/16 = 76.56%)

As DC's get higher this becomes exponentially better for ensuring failure.

Even in low tiers the difference between a DC 14 vs a DC 15 at disadvantage is rather large.

Point is. If you want Heighten spell to be a waste of sorcery points less often, get maxed out charisma ASAP.

[morroiel]

It's a pretty universally accepted trope for 5e caster building (especially sorcerers) to maximize their casting stat. My own guide emphasizes that not only does it affect all your spells and attacks but also some of your metamagics. The math is pretty simple and does not take "several pages." The higher your DC the better disadvantage on saves becomes if you approach it from the angle of "how often do they succeed on my spell saving throws?" As opposed to, "How often do my spells succeed?" the value is very visible.

Let's look at mid tier (level 8); +3 proficiency modifier and +4 or +5 from charisma.

DC 15 vs DC 16

Let's assume the target has +2 to the specific save (moderate stat and no proficiency).

That means they need a 13 or higher for the player with +4 charisma modifier, which at disadvantage is a 16% chance to succeed (they have to succeed on two rolls that each have a 40% chance).

If you have +5 Charisma and the DC is 16 then their chance of succeeding is now 12.25% (35%2) Now that may seem like a small boost of 84% -> 87.75% success rate but it also means that the rate at which the enemy succeeds has dropped almost 25% (12.25/16 = 76.56%)

As DC's get higher this becomes exponentially better for ensuring failure.

Even in low tiers the difference between a DC 14 vs a DC 15 at disadvantage is rather large.

Point is. If you want Heighten spell to be a waste of sorcery points less often, get maxed out charisma ASAP.

The above is a good example of a certain data set. I was talking about proving it systematically, which would require a formal proof.

Thanks for doing the above math though and backing me up on the maxing charisma! :)

[LeonBH]

Here's the issue a lot of spellcasting and metamagics are DM and party composition dependent. The more legendary resistances a boss has the worse heighten is. The higher number of monsters there are the worse off heighten is. Additionally it has a huge opportunity cost at early levels due to you having a small pool of sorcery points and slots. It only really becomes usable with any sense of frequency at about 6/7. Unfortunately most campaigns spend over 40-60% of their time below this level.

Additionally you can cover heighten pretty well by targeting low saves -> diversifying your control spells.

The reason why I value twinned spell so highly is that it is highly versatile. It can ramp up your damage, your control, your buffs, etc. etc. It doesn't have a fixed sorcery point cost and scales nicely as you gain your sorcery points. Lastly, you can do some pretty insane things with twinned control spells and/or debuffs/buffs (I'll list these in the hints or tricks).

I 100% agree that subtle is a must take for a manipulative sorcerer though. Agree that quicken is a strong contender for lvl 10 manipulator and honestly I think its a toss up between it and heighten. If I was starting at level 10 I'd probably take heighten, quicken, and subtle spell for a manipulator sorcerer, but the fact that most campaigns don't get to 10 till the very end means that you have to really make the two lower ones work for you.

I appreciate your feedback and definitely can see your points. Thanks for the input, friend!

I know the power of Twinned Spell. It's a really nice Metamagic.

But I was specifically honing in on Manipulator class Sorcerers. You seem to be approaching this from a blaster/support Sorcerer perspective. Twinned buffs/debuffs or double damage do not immediately align with a Manipulator's optimization goals.

Heighten Spell is meant to be used only when it counts. It's very possible that you will not use it over several encounters against monsters. That's fine: you are a Manipulator, not a Blaster/Support. Your goal is not to deal sick damage or hand out awesome buffs. Your goal is to convince the enemy to work for you (or some variation thereof). If you cannot stand the thought of sitting on an unused Metamagic, you do not have the patience to play a Manipulator.

Heighten Spell is not spammable. It is a very precise tool for surgically removing the strongest threat from the board. In those cases, Twinned buffs are useless if your single Heightened Spell can end the encounter with one spell.

Manipulator Sorcerers are not for everyone. It typically means forgoing huge damage. It means not buffing your allies. But if you do it right, even your fellow players (not PCs) will be scared of you in a respectful way. You cannot reliably do that without Heighten Spell.

Edit: About dealing with legendary resistance, you're not going to fight monsters that have those until you get to a high enough level, in which case Heighten is viable. As for multiple monsters/mobs, they are far beneath you for you to waste a precious metamagic on, anyway (who do they think they are, the BBEG?). Let the Fighter deal with them. Your cantrips should be enough to support them.

[morroiel]

I know the power of Twinned Spell. It's a really nice Metamagic.

But I was specifically honing in on Manipulator class Sorcerers. You seem to be approaching this from a blaster/support Sorcerer perspective. Twinned buffs/debuffs or double damage do not immediately align with a Manipulator's optimization goals.

Heighten Spell is meant to be used only when it counts. It's very possible that you will not use it over several encounters against monsters. That's fine: you are a Manipulator, not a Blaster/Support. Your goal is not to deal sick damage or hand out awesome buffs. Your goal is to convince the enemy to work for you (or some variation thereof). If you cannot stand the thought of sitting on an unused Metamagic, you do not have the patience to play a Manipulator.

Heighten Spell is not spammable. It is a very precise tool for surgically removing the strongest threat from the board. In those cases, Twinned buffs are useless if your single Heightened Spell can end the encounter with one spell.

Manipulator Sorcerers are not for everyone. It typically means forgoing huge damage. It means not buffing your allies. But if you do it right, even your fellow players (not PCs) will be scared of you in a respectful way. You cannot reliably do that without Heighten Spell.

Edit: About dealing with legendary resistance, you're not going to fight monsters that have those until you get to a high enough level, in which case Heighten is viable. As for multiple monsters/mobs, they are far beneath you for you to waste a precious metamagic on, anyway (who do they think they are, the BBEG?). Let the Fighter deal with them. Your cantrips should be enough to support them.

So here's the rub: low levels your most often used shut down spell will either be suggestion or more likely phantasmal force (possibly hold person). In the rare (imo) circumstance you are describing, you can burn your second level spell and then if it fails cast it again by creating a slot for the same 3 sorcery points from font of magic. Yes you have a 1 turn delay but if you get in a scenario like you described that means you accomplish what heighten would have one turn later.

The fact is that heighten only becomes game breakingly strong when you are using more valuable slots or as you correctly mention the **** has hit the fan and you need to escape.

I'm not angling this to be a blaster/support sorcerer but you'd be foolish to not take at least 1 or 2 spells that have versatile usage enough to act as other archetypes. I'll outline this when I do spells and spell lists. Twin by itself already has an insane amount of power just on manipulator role spells. Again I'll outline this in my hints and tips/tricks post later. However, when you have a metamagic that's worth taking without considering its versatility of boosting your bad roles, and then you add in that component it just straight up becomes ridiculous.

One of the tricky things with sorcerers is that in order to play them well (and not just be a crappy version of a wizard) you have to specialize deeply while remaining versatile. For example, plane shift is save or suck but it also functions as a teleport spell for up to 8 people, granted with extra strings attached. It's why there's a compelling argument for it vs banishment (not saying one is strictly better than the other). Similarly sunbeam is a great cc spell and a damage spell at the same time, it has less nova potential than disintegrate and yet most blaster sorcerers will find themselves being more effective casting sunbeam than disintegrate over a campaign. When you can get options that do two things well or even better all 3 roles well, it is almost foolish to not pick them.

I'd also make the point that if all you care about is locking down enemies without legendary resistances you are far better off going diviner wizard and using portent from my personal experience. As heighten until you get the sorcery points later on (usually in the second half of the campaign or worse) to abuse it, is really a worse version of portent imo.

Note that I think there are arguments to taking subtle + heighten over subtle + twinned at level 3 it just ultimately comes down to a lot of intangible variables that are session/dm/campaign specific. I think on average the subtle + twinned is the better choice, personally.

Again thank you for your response and analysis - it is important to remember that these are just my opinions on the matter. I'm not some all encompassing authority and there will probably be things you disagree with. I'm just sharing my personal experience.

[Ritorix]

There's always room for more guides, especially if you have a unique take on a class.

Maybe instead of just saying all three roles are potentially golden, it might be helpful to compare sorcs to other classes and to their various roles and options by using the '3 gameplay pillars' concept. There's combat, exploration and social. I find empower or twin sorcs to be great at combat, as a blast or support, and optimizing that is the focus of most these guides. Sorcs have the skills and stats to do decently at the social pillar, though they lack the expertise of a bard or rogue. Then there's exploration, where typical sorcs lack the skills and rituals to really do much of anything. Sorcs influence the pillars by meta and spell choice. So if they wanted to buff their exploration, for example, they could choose Enhance Ability or Invisibility to grant an ally an advantage on perception or stealth, instead of a directly combat-oriented spell. Sorcs can blow away the social pillar if they take Subtle meta. That's why the Subtle meta itself should be so highly rated - because it can vastly change your performance in a pillar all by itself.

Contrast that with a wizard, which flips the social and exploration ratings around. Their rituals, INT skills and larger spellbook can let them play a huge role in the noncombat side of things, but they don't have much to contribute to a social encounter. Warlock ratings are a bit more complex since pact and patron choice heavily factors in. For them, it's possible to give up a huge exploration boost if they don't take Tome or Chain, and instead take Blade pact to gain...not really any boost to their combat pillar. So Blade should be badly rated because of the opportunity cost to other pillars. Phrasing choices like this is maybe a more holistic view on optimization, and it can help a player to not feel useless at certain times of the game - or at least know when those times will be and maybe plan ahead. Sorcs are all about planning ahead.

-

On another topic, as an experiment, for a vhuman dragon-sorc I'm playing now I took the Magic Initiate feat. No, not for eldritch blast - forget about that. Class: sorcerer. Spell: Shield. By taking your own class, this feat is the only way to effectively add another 'spell known', and you can use Shield with normal spell slots, along with the free daily cast. That frees up a precious spell known for other options. It seems pretty viable so far if you don't require War Caster up front. Obviously only try it if intending to stay single-class to preserve spell progression. Rulings supporting this usage are in the sage advice compendium.

One thing I would LIKE to see in a sorc guide, maybe you can fit it in, is a detailed dive into magic items and meta interactions. Which items a player should go after, tricks to look out for, swapping out spells known for similar items (and the risks!), things like that. The advanced guide mentions necklace of fireballs+quicken, I bet there's a bunch of little tricks waiting to be found in the DMG item lists. See https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/714690060734631936.

[LeonBH]

If you lie to me once and I catch you the first time, I'll be less likely to fall for it if you try again 6 seconds later. That's the cost of a failed spell for a Manipulator.

I suppose the point I'm driving home is, Manipulators are not combat casters. They may need to diversify their spell selection to still overlap with other roles, but their Metamagic selection should emphasize their actual specialization. Twin Spell is largely a combat Metamagic and focuses on hitting more, instead of hitting hard.

Portent is a powerful ability to have, but Heighten Spell is not an inferior Portent. Legendary resistance is awful as an enemy for any caster, not just for a Sorcerer. Twin does not help you break that defense head on, but Heighten does.

Anyway, I can see your take on the Manipulator is different from mine. The chief difference that I can see between us is combat-orientedness: your take involves Manipulators that fight/deal damage/control the field, whereas my take involves Manipulators that dominate monsters. I would say, I prefer a Manipulator who is specialized at manipulation and domination, because that's fundamentally why I'd choose to play a Manipulator.

Thank you for being amicable. I shall stop persuading you now.

[morroiel]

If you lie to me once and I catch you the first time, I'll be less likely to fall for it if you try again 6 seconds later. That's the cost of a failed spell for a Manipulator.

I suppose the point I'm driving home is, Manipulators are not combat casters. They may need to diversify their spell selection to still overlap with other roles, but their Metamagic selection should emphasize their actual specialization. Twin Spell is largely a combat Metamagic and focuses on hitting more, instead of hitting hard.

Portent is a powerful ability to have, but Heighten Spell is not an inferior Portent. Legendary resistance is awful as an enemy for any caster, not just for a Sorcerer. Twin does not help you break that defense head on, but Heighten does.

Anyway, I can see your take on the Manipulator is different from mine. The chief difference that I can see between us is combat-orientedness: your take involves Manipulators that fight/deal damage/control the field, whereas my take involves Manipulators that dominate monsters. I would say, I prefer a Manipulator who is specialized at manipulation and domination, because that's fundamentally why I'd choose to play a Manipulator.

Thank you for being amicable. I shall stop persuading you now.

I guess my point is that out of combat heighten and really most metamagics don't have a place. You can't use more than one metamagic at a time with the sole exception of empowered spell, which means you can't use heighten spell and subtle spell together. I prefer subtle spell to carry my out of combat encounters/manipulations personally.

Cheers, friend :)

[Protato]

I can't wait for both this guide to be finished and for EvilAnagram's to update, so i can see what everyone's opinion's are, where they're the same and where they differ.