[3.5] Kobold combos that should be avoided to maintain challenge?

[Luccan]

I've been thinking about running a game where all the PCs are kobolds for awhile, but I know many of the feats they can acquire can be far more powerful in combination than intended. Part of the point of this game would be the challenge: even selecting for the optimal environmental subraces (which will be an option) kobolds are just weaker than other races. Teamwork and a healthy respect for when to run would be a part of the game. Thus, I want to avoid combinations that make it significantly easier for a single character to handle what is intended to be a real challenge for the whole group (while still offering some of those unique kobold feats and such). So, what combinations from kobolds should be avoided?

Related: Are Earth Kobolds better or about equal to other kobolds? I feel like I've heard they're better, but they don't seem to be significantly superior to me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Banning Dragonwrought ought to cut out a lot of the cheese. Maybe Greater Rite of Passage, too, though you should use the rest of that web enhancement.

[Nifft]

Dragonwrought Kobold in itself isn't broken. It's a decent buff to a weak race, which allows some niche spell effects (e.g. alter self to gain a great fly speed at level 3-5), and gives a couple of explicit immunities.

Dragonwrought Kobold starting at age Venerable, with the templates Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron) and Spellhoard Psychosis (Dragon Magazine) -- that's probably broken.

So what you ought to prohibit:
- PCs all start at early adulthood unless you give explicit permission.
- Sovereign Archetypes are not for PCs.
- Draconic Psychoses are not for PCs.


Greater Draconic Passage might be broken, except it only applies to Sorcerer casting, which is already a level behind. Arguable either way.

To fix it: you can advance your spellcasting +1 Sorcerer level up to your HD. So basically, you can add "+1 level Sorcerer casting" to a level that doesn't already grant Sorcerer casting. This makes classes like Dracolexi, Sand Shaper, and Wild Soul a lot more palatable.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Dragonwrought Kobold in itself isn't broken. It's a decent buff to a weak race, which allows some niche spell effects (e.g. alter self to gain a great fly speed at level 3-5), and gives a couple of explicit immunities.
The feat isn't bad in and of itself, but it's a gateway. It's easier to remove it than to run down a dozen exploits and overpowered options that it opens up one-by-one.

[Nifft]

The feat isn't bad in and of itself, but it's a gateway. It's easier to remove it than to run down a dozen exploits and overpowered options that it opens up one-by-one.

Pun-Pun wasn't Dragonwrought, he was just a regular Kobold.

So Kobold itself would be a gateway... if you ignore the fact that the broken element was the Serpent Kingdom monster ability.

Banning Kobolds altogether is the logical conclusion of your reasoning, but that feels wrong to me, because the Kobold itself isn't the broken element. It's just the focus for a cluster of other broken stuff.


Also, you're going to need to handle exploits like Venerable starts for some other races. IMHO it's cleaner to remove the exploits directly, rather than search for all possible targets for each exploit.

[PrismCat21]

IMHO it's cleaner to remove the exploits directly, rather than search for all possible targets for each exploit.

*Three thumbs up*

Tell the players to not go crazy. Say no to Loredrake, Dragon psychosis, whitespawn, ECT...
Kobolds are weak. They have some good options to make them decent PC's and make them fun. Dragonwrought, and all the web enhancements are viable options that they need access to, not restrictions against.

[Fouredged Sword]

Tell your party that the game will focus on teamwork and that running away when faced with a hard encounter should be a valid tactic. Tell tham not to make characters who are singularly powerful. Tell them no cheese.

[PrismCat21]

Tell tham not to make characters who are singularly powerful. Tell them no cheese.

First, the DM would need to define exactly what would be cheese. There are plenty of people who think Dragonwrought by itself is cheese. I've seen people adamantly against the web enhancement that gives them slight build and natural weapons, because it's 'unfair'.

I'd agree about no cheese. But what is the cheese?

[Luccan]

First, the DM would need to define exactly what would be cheese. There are plenty of people who think Dragonwrought by itself is cheese. I've seen people adamantly against the web enhancement that gives them slight build and natural weapons, because it's 'unfair'.

I'd agree about no cheese. But what is the cheese?

I'm definitely for the natural weapons and slight build. I've never had to work with Dragonwrought, so it looks like I'll need to spend some time looking at it.

[PrismCat21]

I'm definitely for the natural weapons and slight build. I've never had to work with Dragonwrought, so it looks like I'll need to spend some time looking at it.

Here's what Dragonwrought does for you.
At the cost your level 1 feat, your type becomes Dragon instead of Humanoid, while retaining your subtypesThat.
Your scales are tinted with the color matching your chosen dragon.
You become immune to magic sleep (like Elves and Half-Elves) and paralysis effects.
You gain low-light vision. (You already have Darkvision)
You gain a +2 bonus on a skill, chosen by your draconic heritage.
As a Dragon, you don't suffer penalties as you grow older.

Because you're no longer Humanoid, some spells won't effect you, or may effect you differently.
Things that effect only dragons, now effect you.

Just tell the players to not choose anything obviously not meant for Player Characters. Then there won't be trouble.

[Goaty14]

Fix dragonwrought to give you the "dragon subtype" or "half dragon type" (even if those don't exist, subtype if you still want them to be affected by humanoid spells). That should bar them from spellhoarding dragons and etc, since they wouldn't be considered dragons. If players DO get away with becoming dragons, there are a few lot of things in dragon magic that give bonuses vs dragons...

[Jiece18]

This is my very first post, so forgive me if my format is off. The main reason I posted was because I have played in a couple Kobold centered campaigns. One I played in and one I DM'd. It can be a very interesting dynamic for players because you can learn more about the lore of a race you would normally just kill, loot and move on.

The game I played in was a bit on the restrictive side.
Core books only with Races of Dragon added for obvious reasons.
We each got the Dragonwrought feat for free because the DM wanted us to be an elite force sent on dangerous missions for the clan. The game went well. Many of the players saw it as a challenge and enjoyed it. I remember one of the players made up a monk who would talk like a high pitched version of Ash from evil dead. He wasn't the most effective, but the table nearly died laughing when ever he attacked something much larger than himself.

For the game I ran, I use the rules that I apply to all my games.
The Core Three Books, the complete series (minus psionic), and the Magic Item and Spell Compendiums are always aloud. Other than that, a player needs to ask if they can pull something from another source and why. It gives you a chance to see what they are trying to do and shut down any problematic combos. For world building, I aid sources to the ok list if I use them in the campaign I am running.

If I use psionic, then all the psionic sources are alright to use without asking. Same with Tome of Battle, Unearthed Arcana, and the like. I'm not trying to stomp out creativity, but the majority of broken combos come from pulling for a number of different sources that weren't made to interact well with each other.

For the kobold campaign, I aloud Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic to be added to the ok list. Some of my players did pick the Dragonwrought feat, but most didn't want to give up their first level feat. I got a few request to add things from other sources. I took a bit of time with each request to make sure it was over blown. It is a bit of micromanaging for character creation, but the game went smoothly. Only one player got mad, but he wanted to play the typical a-hole that can ruin games, and he was told by the group to knock it off or leave.

Not sure if this helps, but if your group is solid, then they won't go out of their way to make you job hard.

Also as a side note, I don't have anything against psionics or the other sources. There are just sometimes I want to run a simple game with fewer mechanics to worry about.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Things that effect only dragons, now effect you.Generally, the only things that effect dragons are other dragons, unless magic is involved, of course. Polymorph can turn you into creatures of the dragon type, after all.

[Nifft]

Generally, the only things that effect dragons are other dragons, unless magic is involved, of course. Polymorph can turn you into creatures of the dragon type, after all.



Dragon Ally, Lesser

Conjuration (Calling)
Level: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V, XP,
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One called dragon of 15 HD or less


"Green dragon, in the corner pocket."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Green dragon, in the corner pocket."Well spoken, sir.

[PrismCat21]

Generally, the only things that effect dragons are other dragons, unless magic is involved, of course. Polymorph can turn you into creatures of the dragon type, after all.

Just off the top of my head...
Favored Enemy (Dragons), Bane (Dragons), Bahamuts Blessing {Smite Dragons}, Detect Dragonblood, Dragonhunter feat line.

You can also potentially make Dragoncrafted weapons and armor from Dragonwrought Kobolds.

[Nifft]

Just off the top of my head...
Favored Enemy (Dragons), Bane (Dragons), Bahamuts Blessing {Smite Dragons}, Detect Dragonblood, Dragonhunter feat line.

You can also potentially make Dragoncrafted weapons and armor from Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Maxi is making a pun about the quoted confusion between affect vs. effect.

The things you list will affect a dragon; they do not effect a dragon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maxi is making a pun about the quoted confusion between affect vs. effect.

The things you list will affect a dragon; they do not effect a dragon.This.

"Effect" as a verb means "to create" or "to put into play." Which is why it's mainly only dragons and shapeshifting magics actually effect them. Of course, the calling spell above does, too, as it's in the Effect line.