Elves take 4 hr long rests now (change to sage advice)

[Tanarii]

I just noticed Sage Advice has changed the way Elf trance works to have it shorten a Long Rest. Not sure when it changed, and the why isn't clear to me.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for
a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer
has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the Player’s Handbook.]

Not sure what the newer printing tweak this refers to is exactly. Because the only thing in the errata is adding a minimum of 1 HD gained, which doesn't seem relevant. Anyone got any ideas why this changed?

Edit: I just compared the basic rules PDFs I have (v0.3) to my 1st print PHB, and the only differences for long rests are indeed the minimum of 1 HD.

Edit (found where this is coming from, see my post 22 below):
New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf

[Easy_Lee]

IIRC, the eight hour thing specifically applied to casters. An elf fighter could long rest in four hours, but casters still took eight to get their spell slots back. Do casters now get their slots back in four? Depending on the campaign, that could be significant - druids can hold wildshape for four hours much earlier than they can hold it for eight.

[Tanarii]

You get spell slots back for finishing a long rest PHB 201. So elves also recharge them in 4 hrs now.

[Tanarii]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die." :smallamused:

[Easy_Lee]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die." :smallamused:

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).

Still, this is a good change. What's the point of trance if it barely has mechanical benefit?

Now, let's abuse it.

First idea: a level 8 elf druid can wildshape into a suitable creature (get in a hole or hide in plain sight) and enter his trance. He has exactly long enough to complete the trance before reverting, getting his spell slots and wildshape back. And good luck to any DMs who want to reasonably stop him.

[Keltest]

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).

Still, this is a good change. What's the point of trance if it barely has mechanical benefit?

Now, let's abuse it.

First idea: a level 8 elf druid can wildshape into a suitable creature (get in a hole or hide in plain sight) and enter his trance. He has exactly long enough to complete the trance before reverting, getting his spell slots and wildshape back. And good luck to any DMs who want to reasonably stop him.

I think this begs the question, What then? Is this just something to let a druid hide while they rest?

[Tanarii]

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is). I haven't killed any of us three yet, so clearly we're a different breed. Not necessarily a better one, or course. :smallbiggrin:


Now, let's abuse it.In this case, the Elf Druid wanted to long rest first (4 hrs) then stand guard while th rest of the party long rested. They were in a dangerous area, and we're very worried about a night attack. I didn't consider it an abuse though, I was just trying to establish the rule in case it became an issue later.

I know what I'd use it for: Elf Rogue or Ranger, solo scouting. 4hr to scout the general location ahead, Keeping within a reasonable likelihood of not getting my ass killed. ie not deep stuff, just checking out the general area. (Not extensive in-game stuff in other words. That's not fair to the other players.)

Also, of course, handing my DM 'your scout hasn't returned yet, what do you do?' plot hooks when I inevitably get captured. Again.

Edit: I thought wildshape lasted exactly 1 hr?
Edit2: doh. Fail at memorizing abilities.

[RSP]

I noticed this change as well and didn't see what the specific change was that allowed the shortening of rests for Elves. The intent seems to be that a Long Rest is tied to sleeping in some way, which could effect other abilities.

[Alerad]

I've already been using similar rules, letting elves take two watches instead of one when the party is camping. So far the players are happy with this mechanic.

I like the trait, so far as it doesn't get abused. If an elf gets up four hours earlier and expects me to DM solo adventures while the party is sleeping I might need it. I can imagine this becoming a problem at some tables.

[Pex]

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).


It's me he's afraid of.

[Vaz]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die." :smallamused:

The people participating in the 30 page ones would like to know where these exist

[SharkForce]

has some potentially interesting implications for prepared spell classes if they also have a scout that can afford to take a half rest (say, a familiar or an elven rogue or monk, or an elven warlock with at-will arcane eye). the scout does a 4-hour scouting trip, comes back with information about what's ahead, and the prepared spellcaster prepares an optimized set of spells for the day.

[PhantomSoul]

One nice benefit is that casting a high-level 8-hour spell (I'm looking at you, Foresight) leaves you with 4 hours of benefit... after regaining the slot!

[MeeposFire]

One thing to remember is that regardless of whether it takes 4 or 8 hours you can still only take 1 long rest every 24 hours.

[8wGremlin]

Does this now screw over the CoffeeLock builds?

[lperkins2]

No, no effect on 'coffee locks', nor on warforged. It says an elf, who trances, specifically. It doesn't change waking-rest from 8 to four hours for elves either. (Long rest doesn't specifically say it requires sleep).

[RSP]

No, no effect on 'coffee locks', nor on warforged. It says an elf, who trances, specifically. It doesn't change waking-rest from 8 to four hours for elves either. (Long rest doesn't specifically say it requires sleep).

Well it's tough to really say that as all we have is an SA ruling stating a change to the long rest rules allows Trance to be 4 hours. Without seeing the actual change to the rule, it's impossible to say what else may have changed. As the OP stated, whatever the change is hasn't been posted on available errata. just because SA specifies Trance as being impacted by the change, it doesn't mean other abilities aren't also effected.

If anyone has a newer PHB with the new wording, that might help.

[Personification]

I think this begs the question, What then? Is this just something to let a druid hide while they rest?
This has nothing to do with anything really, just a pet peeve, but hey, I am a pedant among pedants anyway. To "beg the question" means to be tautological, not to raise a question.

[SharkForce]

No, no effect on 'coffee locks', nor on warforged. It says an elf, who trances, specifically. It doesn't change waking-rest from 8 to four hours for elves either. (Long rest doesn't specifically say it requires sleep).

actually, it probably does change sorclock in at least some ways.

the coffee sorclock build relied on sleeping for 4 hours not counting as resting, because presumably at some point you actually do need to get proper sleep or else you begin to become increasingly incoherent and eventually die, just like in real life (i don't think there's a mechanic for it, but the obvious one is exhaustion after not getting enough sleep, just like if you don't eat or don't drink any water).

previously, they could get away with not taking a long rest, just stockpiling all their created spell slots, because their 4 hours of trance (which was all they needed as far as sleep is concerned) did not count as a long rest, and therefore did not reset their created spell slots.

it might still work with warforged, though. not sure, haven't looked it up in a long while. of course, warforged are also a UA-only race (barring homebrew) at this point, so who knows if it'll work on whatever eventual version they settle on.

[Malifice]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die." :smallamused:

It never used to. They changed it a few weeks back.

Unless you have a party of Elves it's not really an issue. 99/100 it just lets the elf complete his long rest 4 hours before the rest of the party (meaning it's less likely to be broken by a nightime encounter).

You still only get 1 long rest every 24 hours and as long as the doom clock is ticking, it's no biggie.

[LeonBH]

actually, it probably does change sorclock in at least some ways.

the coffee sorclock build relied on sleeping for 4 hours not counting as resting, because presumably at some point you actually do need to get proper sleep or else you begin to become increasingly incoherent and eventually die, just like in real life (i don't think there's a mechanic for it, but the obvious one is exhaustion after not getting enough sleep, just like if you don't eat or don't drink any water).

previously, they could get away with not taking a long rest, just stockpiling all their created spell slots, because their 4 hours of trance (which was all they needed as far as sleep is concerned) did not count as a long rest, and therefore did not reset their created spell slots.

it might still work with warforged, though. not sure, haven't looked it up in a long while. of course, warforged are also a UA-only race (barring homebrew) at this point, so who knows if it'll work on whatever eventual version they settle on.

Not really, because they can just take the Aspect of the Moon (Xanathar's Guide, not UA), which means they will not need to sleep at all.

[Tanarii]

This has nothing to do with anything really, just a pet peeve, but hey, I am a pedant among pedants anyway. To "beg the question" means to be tautological, not to raise a question.i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin. :smallamused:


It never used to. They changed it a few weeks back.Depending on when the change happened, they may have made me wrong right after I told the player that. :smallyuk:

Why I'm interested in is why they changed it. I mean, it says why, but the actual supposed small tweak to long rests in future printings doesn't seem to be anywhere I can find.

Hah immediately found it. First post:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/bugs-support/7301-errata-is-missing-from-online-players-handbook

New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

Long rests now require sleeping! Hah!

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf

[8wGremlin]

Not really, because they can just take the Aspect of the Moon (Xanathar's Guide, not UA), which means they will not need to sleep at all.

I was thinking that too, but:


didn't know if Aspect of the moon had made the cut
it takes up a valuable invocation

[SharkForce]

Not really, because they can just take the Aspect of the Moon (Xanathar's Guide, not UA), which means they will not need to sleep at all.

hmmm... well still some change i guess, but not that much.

[Malifice]

i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin. :smallamused:

Depending on when the change happened, they may have made me wrong right after I told the player that. :smallyuk:

Why I'm interested in is why they changed it. I mean, it says why, but the actual supposed small tweak to long rests in future printings doesn't seem to be anywhere I can find.

Hah immediately found it. First post:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/bugs-support/7301-errata-is-missing-from-online-players-handbook

New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

Long rests now require sleeping! Hah!

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf

Sleeping has been confirmed in XGtE as giving one the unconscious condition as well.

I recall there being some debate about this a while back. Maybe on a different forum, cant recall.

[Tanarii]

Sleeping has been confirmed in XGtE as giving one the unconscious condition as well.

I recall there being some debate about this a while back. Maybe on a different forum, cant recall.I was on the side that nothing says natural sleep is the unconscious decision condition. And said so at great length over 10+ pages in at least one thread. :smallbiggrin:

Not my day for being retroactively proven wrong.

[Personification]

i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin. :smallamused:
In that case, I believe the term is pedanticism:smallredface:

[Malifice]

I was on the side that nothing says natural sleep is the unconscious decision condition. And said so at great length over 10+ pages in at least one thread. :smallbiggrin:

Not my day for being retroactively proven wrong.

Pretty sure I was arguing it was = unconscious condition.

Certainly how I've always ran it.

[Batou1976]

Any idea of what the implications for the alternate short/long rest rule where a short rest is 8 hrs and a long rest is 1 week?

[Malifice]

Any idea of what the implications for the alternate short/long rest rule where a short rest is 8 hrs and a long rest is 1 week?

A reasonable inference is Elves can short rest by 4 hours of trance in those games, instead of 8 hours of sleep.

[Batou1976]

A reasonable inference is Elves can short rest by 4 hours of trance in those games, instead of 8 hours of sleep.

That part, yeah. But do they have to trance 4 hrs a day, for 7 days consecutively, to take a long rest? That seems logical to me... but the Sage may disagree. :smallfrown:

[LeonBH]

Any idea of what the implications for the alternate short/long rest rule where a short rest is 8 hrs and a long rest is 1 week?

For those games, I would remove the Trance trait and let the player replace it with something of equal power. That is, another trait that's only fluff.

[RSP]

i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin. :smallamused:

Depending on when the change happened, they may have made me wrong right after I told the player that. :smallyuk:

Why I'm interested in is why they changed it. I mean, it says why, but the actual supposed small tweak to long rests in future printings doesn't seem to be anywhere I can find.

Hah immediately found it. First post:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/bugs-support/7301-errata-is-missing-from-online-players-handbook

New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

Long rests now require sleeping! Hah!

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf

What am I missing? Why does that change, RAW, mean Trance equals a 4 hour long rest? If a normal long rest is 6 hours sleep plus 2 hours light activity, then wouldn't an Elven long rest then be 6 hours (4 hours Trance + 2 hours light activity)?

Why does Trance mean you don't need to include the extra 2 hours anymore? Nothing in General vs Specific would change the wording of LR to exempt Elves as requiring the 8 hours, RAW.

And would the sleepless warlock then not need anytime for a long rest due to not needing any sleep?

Really sounds like they just meant to change the rules of Trance and decided some backasswards rewording of long rest would suffice.

Again, help me out if I'm missing something here...

[Tanarii]

Yeah, my first thought is that the new Long Rest language should mean an Elf should need a 6 hour Long Rest too.

Hey, but at least we know why it's different. I wasn't even aware that the 6th printing PHB, which has been out forever, changed the Long Rest rules to explicitly require sleeping.

[LeonBH]

What am I missing? Why does that change, RAW, mean Trance equals a 4 hour long rest? If a normal long rest is 6 hours sleep plus 2 hours light activity, then wouldn't an Elven long rest then be 6 hours (4 hours Trance + 2 hours light activity)?

Why does Trance mean you don't need to include the extra 2 hours anymore? Nothing in General vs Specific would change the wording of LR to exempt Elves as requiring the 8 hours, RAW.

And would the sleepless warlock then not need anytime for a long rest due to not needing any sleep?

Really sounds like they just meant to change the rules of Trance and decided some backasswards rewording of long rest would suffice.

Again, help me out if I'm missing something here...

What you're missing is the Sage Advice answer:


Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the Player’s Handbook.]

[scalyfreak]

Wait a moment.

My copy of the PHB (first print) says that if an elf meditate deeply (commonly known as "trance"), that elf will "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

The Long Rest wording is this one: "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."

So either someone didn't pay attention to continuity, and it's all a gigantic mistake, or trance as it is written has been useless all along.

And this is why there are house rules, I guess...?

[Tanarii]

My copy of the PHB (first print) says that if an elf meditate deeply (commonly known as "trance"), that elf will "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

The Long Rest wording is this one: "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."
If your PHB says that for Long Rest on p186, it's not a 1st print, it's a 6th print. The first print doesn't say anything about sleeping for 6 hrs under long rest.

[scalyfreak]

That makes the wording on the copyright page as confusing as the wording in the rest of the book! :smallmad:

[RSP]

What you're missing is the Sage Advice answer:

I'm aware of the SA, there's just nothing in the rewording of the RAW that equals what the SA states. They're trying to extrapolate a new rule (that is, that Trance shortens Long Rests) from a minor alteration that doesn't actually cover what they say it does.

The LR rules don't say anything about needing less than 6 hours of sleep equals a shorter LR, therefore, there shouldn't be an effect of Trance on a LR.

Now, per the SA and it's reasoning, if a character doesn't require sleep, then they can LR instantly, since the SA tied required sleep to the duration needed for a LR.

[hymer]

This has nothing to do with anything really, just a pet peeve, but hey, I am a pedant among pedants anyway. To "beg the question" means to be tautological, not to raise a question.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/909/991/48c.jpg

I, too, applaud your pedantry (and incidentally learned that 'begging the question' can now also mean to dodge a question - but that would not be technically correct, nor should we elevate learning of new things to the purity of a good case of pedantry).

[LeonBH]

The RAW now states:


A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

The key is the 2 hours of light activity is not mandatory.

That is, the duration of a LR without Trance is between 6 hours and any number of hours beyond 6 where you do light activity, but no more than 2 hours of that.

You don't have to do 2 hours of light activity. But if you do so (like take watch), it doesn't break the LR. For example, if you slept for 3 hours, got woken up to take watch, stayed up for 2 hours, and slept for another 3 hours, you still gain the benefits of a LR.

However, if you slept for 6 hours straight, you would complete your LR when you wake up.

For creatures that do not need to sleep via Aspect of the Moon, they explicitly need to do light activity anyway, because the wording on that invocation says:

"To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity [...]"

[Tanarii]

The key is the 2 hours of light activity is not mandatory.

That is, the duration of a LR without Trance is between 6 hours and any number of hours beyond 6 where you do light activity, but no more than 2 hours of that.
It's clear a Long rest is at least 8 hrs.

That 8+ hours is any combination of 6+ hrs of sleep and 2 or less of light activity. That can mean 6-and-2, 7-and-1, 8 of sleep, or even 10 of sleep.

Edit: and the SA is saying 4 hours of trance counts for all 8 hours of sleep. Which makes sense for that specific feature, because it says that's what it does, and the new long rest rules now are explicit it's sleeping (with a possible substitution if desired of up to 2 hrs of light activity). You cannot extrapolate from that feature's interaction with Long Rests implies things for other features that make you sleepless, unless they say the make you as rested as 8 hours of sleep specifically.

[Saiga]

Actually, if a long rest is "8 hours, at least 6 sleeping, the rest light activity" then I see the argument that 4 hr trance = 4 hr long rest. Because what benefit does a human get from 8 hours sleep, per the game mechanics? A long rest. Eight hours sleep meets the requirements for a long rest, but six hours would not.

I prefer running it as 4 hr trance/4 hr light activity, though.

[Lombra]

But the errata clarifies that it has to be an 8 hour long period of at least 6 hours of sleep and 2 of light activity, I don't see how not needing to sleep or the opportunity to meditate change the fact that the rule specifies the time needed to complete it.

[Saiga]

But the errata clarifies that it has to be an 8 hour long period of at least 6 hours of sleep and 2 of light activity, I don't see how not needing to sleep or the opportunity to meditate change the fact that the rule specifies the time needed to complete it.

The not needing to sleep doesn't, but the meditation grants the benefits of an eight hour sleep. Eight hour sleep = long rest.

[DarkKnightJin]

Actually, if a long rest is "8 hours, at least 6 sleeping, the rest light activity" then I see the argument that 4 hr trance = 4 hr long rest. Because what benefit does a human get from 8 hours sleep, per the game mechanics? A long rest. Eight hours sleep meets the requirements for a long rest, but six hours would not.

I prefer running it as 4 hr trance/4 hr light activity, though.

Even with an all-Elven party, you're going to wanna have 1 or 2 folks on watch, so a Long Rest would likely be 5 to 6 hours at the least. Of course, if you're in a town or other safe spot where a night's watch isn't a thing, you can get 4 hours and truck on.

And now I'm thinking.. Would an Elven Warlock with Aspect of the Moon Invocation suddenly need those 8 hours for a Long Rest, or would it still be 4 hours as per Trance?

[Coffee_Dragon]

To "beg the question" means to be tautological, not to raise a question.

Actually, begging the question means assuming the validity of what is to be proved, while being tautological means restating the same thing.

[robbie374]

RAW, trance gives the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours. A long rest is 8 hours, with only three quarters of the time, 6 hours, of required sleep. An elf can trance for 3 hours (=6 hours sleep) and perform light activity for 5 hours, to get an 8-hour long rest.

After SA, the elf needs to only trance 3 hours and have 1 hour of light activity to gain a full 4-hour long rest. An elf can now keep watch for 5 full hours while the rest of the party rests: 1 hour during the elf's long rest, and then 4 hours after the elf is done resting but before everyone else is.

[Easy_Lee]

After SA, the elf needs to only trance 3 hours and have 1 hour of light activity to gain a full 4-hour long rest. An elf can now keep watch for 5 full hours while the rest of the party rests: 1 hour during the elf's long rest, and then 4 hours after the elf is done resting but before everyone else is.

Not to add even more pedantry, but I don't think this is technically correct. Trance says the elf may do his elf thing for four hours to gain the same benefit as a human resting for eight hours. We know that when a character rests for eight hours, they only have to be asleep for six of those. But elves don't rest, so the "light activity" caveat doesn't technically apply to them.

I think it works as it seems to on first glance. Elves can trance for four hours in place of a normal long rest.

[RSP]

Eight hour sleep = long rest.

No, it doesn't, at least not according to the RAW. A long rest is 8 hours, RAW. 6 hours of that need to be sleeping. But a long rest is more than just sleeping. I could sleep for two eight-hour segments in a 24 hour period, but that doesn't grant me two long rests, RAW.

So RAW, getting 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours does not equal a 4 hour long rest, because nothing in the wording of Trance states it removes the need for long rests to be 8 hours long.

[thepsyker]

Not to add even more pedantry, but I don't think this is technically correct. Trance says the elf may do his elf thing for four hours to gain the same benefit as a human resting for eight hours. We know that when a character rests for eight hours, they only have to be asleep for six of those. But elves don't rest, so the "light activity" caveat doesn't technically apply to them.

I think it works as it seems to on first glance. Elves can trance for four hours in place of a normal long rest.

This. What it is saying is that you can meet the conditions for a long rest in several ways:

1) You can sleep for 8+ hours.
2) You can sleep for 7 hours and engage in light activity for 1 hour.
3) You can sleep for 6 hours and engage in light activity for 2 hours.

What the SA is saying is that the elves Trance ability lets them complete option 1 in 4 hours instead of 8.

[RSP]

However, if you slept for 6 hours straight, you would complete your LR when you wake up.


How do you come to this conclusion when the RAW explicitly states "A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long..."

I'm not sure how you read that line and come up with "a long rest is only 6 hours."

[Tanarii]

No, it doesn't, at least not according to the RAW.Thats debatable, it can be interpreted two ways now that it includes a completely description of what the 8 hrs are.

And irrelevant given RAI is made clear by the SA, as far as I'm concerned. It takes a bit of careful playing attention but its clearly just a substitution thing. thepsycher's comment above lines it up nicely how they're quite obviously looking at it now.

[Mister_Squinty]

This "4 hour trance" increasingly strikes me as something that is way too troublesome to bother with in future editions. I understand about tradition and such, but this is the kind of legacy that needs to vanish for the mental health of everyone.

[RSP]

Thats debatable, it can be interpreted two ways now that it includes a completely description of what the 8 hrs are.

And irrelevant given RAI is made clear by the SA, as far as I'm concerned. It takes a bit of careful playing attention but its clearly just a substitution thing. thepsycher's comment above lines it up nicely how they're quite obviously looking at it now.

First off, I disagree on the RAI (or rather, call BS on the devs, not you T). For the last 3 years the RAI was Elves still required the 8 hours (hence the previous SA stating such). So basically RAI is saying the intent of Trance when we wrote the PHB and for three years thereafter was that it still required 8 hours for a long rest. However, we've now changed our intent behind what we wrote 3+ years ago.

I think it's very clear the intent behind Trance was that it still required a long rest. By trying to change that through a modification of what a long rest is, and with the SA write up, they're saying all abilities that reference sleeping or long rests needs to be reconsidered (as the did with Trance).

Per that reconsideration and their SA insinuation of sleep=long rest, then not needing sleep=immediate LR (that is, no time required for a long rest)

Now, as to whether a long rest requiring 8 hours is debatable, is again point you towards the RAW:

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

So there's a few qualifications to this, but the very first one is that it's at least 8 hours long. I don't know why that statement would be debatable. The fact that there are other requirements to a long rest doesn't mean this first one doesn't exist.

[Tanarii]

First off, I disagree on the RAI (or rather, call BS on the devs, not you T). For the last 3 years the RAI was Elves still required the 8 hours (hence the previous SA stating such). So basically RAI is saying the intent of Trance when we wrote the PHB and for three years thereafter was that it still required 8 hours for a long rest. However, we've now changed our intent behind what we wrote 3+ years ago.Lol yeah that's a fair way to look at it. Somehow the RAI has mysteriously changed because of the clarification by errata of the long rest rule. So was the old RAI right, the new RAI right, or has the RAI merely changed because the rule has actually changed? it's all pretty silly. :smallamused:

But it's clear what they want to the official RAI to be at this point in time, even if it's BS and you don't want to use it. (I have a few SAs in the PDF that I think are BS and don't use.)

[RSP]

Lol yeah that's a fair way to look at it. Somehow the RAI has mysteriously changed because of the clarification by errata of the long rest rule. So was the old RAI right, the new RAI right, or has the RAI merely changed because the rule has actually changed? it's all pretty silly. :smallamused:

But it's clear what they want to the official RAI to be at this point in time, even if it's BS and you don't want to use it. (I have a few SAs in the PDF that I think are BS and don't use.)

It's not whether I like it or not, it's that by doing it this way, and then noting in the SA that the LR rules changes other abilities and how they work, that it now opens the door to argue any ability that deals with sleep or long rests, like the Aspect of the Moon invocation. One could argue the new LR rules retroactively change it to allow immediate long rests due to no sleep required and that the statement of still needing 8 hours rest was pre-errata, for if it is now "sleep=long rest", then "not needing sleep=immediate LR benefits".

[Tanarii]

IOne could argue the new LR rules retroactively change it to allow immediate long rests due to no sleep required and that the statement of still needing 8 hours rest was pre-errata, for if it is now "sleep=long rest", then "not needing sleep=immediate LR benefits".
It's "Trance 4 Hrs = benefits of 8 hrs of sleep" specifically interacting with "8 hrs of sleep = long rest".

It does not follow that "not needing sleep at all = benefits of 8 hrs of sleep".

Edit: Especially if the ability specifically says "8 hrs of light activity = long rest".

[robbie374]

The biggest confusion comes from the lack of clarity between long rest and sleep.

1) A long rest is always 8 hours, except with SA trance.
2) The benefits of a long rest and the benefits of sleep are not the same. Sleep is necessary for a successful long rest, but it does not define the long rest. The benefits of sleep are feeling rested. The benefits of a long rest are game mechanics.
2) A human needs only 6 hours of sleep per long rest.
3) There are no rules about sleep being necessary except that you need 6 hours in a long rest.
4) Some abilities decrease the need for sleep. Presumably, not needing to sleep means that you can long rest with 8 full hours of light activity.
5) Trance is one of these abilities, with 4 hours of trance = 8 hours of sleep.
-- Humans meet long rest requirements after 6 hours of sleep, not 8. They might still be grumpy.
-- 4-hour trance gives the same benefit as 8-hour sleep, which is more than the 6 hours required. These benefits and long rest benefits are not the same.
-- By comparison, trancers need only 3 hours of trance to equal the mechanically necessary 6 hours of sleep for a long rest. They might still be grumpy.
-- This makes sense: 1 hour of trance gives the benefits (restfulness) of 2 hours of sleep.
-- It would be illogical to assume that an elf who trances for 3 hours and 59 minutes and is roused 1 minute early for a day of intense fighting receives no benefit from trancing, as if he had never started. That would be like saying a human who sleeps for 7 hours and 58 minutes isn't rested at all upon waking. Such a character would not gain the mechanical benefits of an in-game long rest, but he would feel quite well rested.
7) Trance is not light activity but semi-consciousness.
8) The Sage Advice ruling changes long rest requirements but does not change sleep requirements nor the relationship between trance and sleep. It does not change any of the other long rest rules, including what happens during a long rest, only the duration.

[RSP]

It's "Trance 4 Hrs = benefits of 8 hrs of sleep" specifically interacting with "8 hrs of sleep = long rest".

It does not follow that "not needing sleep at all = benefits of 8 hrs of sleep".

Edit: Especially if the ability specifically says "8 hrs of light activity = long rest".

I think Robbie's post above lays it out a bit better than I did.

The SA creates a new, non-RAW rule, that is only defined in how it's interpreted in dealing with Trance and Long Rest. We have no idea what the new connection is between required sleep and Long Rests, other than that Trance somehow waives the RAW requirement that a Long Rest is at least 8 hours.

Nothing in the RAW of Trance states it waived the 8 hours.

We know Trance hasn't been errata'd, and we know the RAI was that Trance doesn't waive the 8 hour rule of a Long Rest as it was written 3+ years ago.

Yet somehow Trance now waives that rule, with the implication from the SA ruling as being: now "Sleep=LR."

That's the only way to logically get the parts to fit to the conclusion found in the SA, however, that means a whole bunch of other things change in the rules, such as 6 hour LRs if you just sleep straight, and the "no sleep needed=LR with no time requirement"

And yes, the RAW of the invocation says it still requires the 8 hours, but wasn't that under the pre errata of long rest? And we already know the RAW of Trance doesn't allow the waiving of 8 hours, so with the rules of LR changing, and subsequently changing how other abilities interact with LR, you would need to revisit every ability and see what the new rule would play as.

[Tanarii]

2) A human needs only 6 hours of sleep per long rest.Long rest requires 6 or more out of the 8 hours.

4 hours of trance, gives (explicitly) the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, means it gives the benefits of a Long Rest, once per 24 hours. Since 8 hours of sleep gives the benefit of a Long Rest, once per 24 hours. Simple chain. I believe it'd be: sleep(8 hrs) ⊂ Long Rest(Once/24 hours), Trance(4) := sleep(8 hrs), ∴ Trance(4) ⊂ Long Rest(Once/24 hours).

This does not follow from "do not need sleep" unless it explicitly says that X gives the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. Because it's missing a step to link together with Long Rest(Once/24 hours).

It's probably a mistake to try and introduce symbols to explain what I mean, since I'm by no means an expert on it. But it seems necessary to avoid mistakes like "Long Rest = 6 hours of sleep". The number 6 hours is not relevant.

[RSP]

4 hours of trance, gives (explicitly) the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, means it gives the benefits of a Long Rest, once per 24 hours.


But a long rest isn't just 6+ hours of sleep, it's also at least 8 hours long.

Compare the old and new RAW of LR:

Old:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.

New:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.


Notice how in both versions the wording for a long rest being at least 8 hours long isn't changed. It's the exact same wording in both versions. And we know from the previous SA that the intent was that Trance didn't lift the 8 hour requirement.

So the wording of Trance didn't change: getting the benefit of 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours of meditating is nice, but it doesn't alleviate the first rule of a LR, which is that it's at least 8 hours long. Further, we know this because the devs told us in the original SA: "Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest."

So if the RAW of Trance didn't change, and the "at least 8 hours" LR RAW didn't change, then the only way the new SA can be correct is if it changed the RAW on its own. This appears to be the case, in that it made it so "LR=sleep required," which has effects beyond the interaction of LR and Trance.

[Lord Vukodlak]

But a long rest isn't just 6+ hours of sleep, it's also at least 8 hours long.

Compare the old and new RAW of LR:

Old:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.

New:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.


Notice how in both versions the wording for a long rest being at least 8 hours long isn't changed. It's the exact same wording in both versions. And we know from the previous SA that the intent was that Trance didn't lift the 8 hour requirement.

So the wording of Trance didn't change: getting the benefit of 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours of meditating is nice, but it doesn't alleviate the first rule of a LR, which is that it's at least 8 hours long. Further, we know this because the devs told us in the original SA: "Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest."

So if the RAW of Trance didn't change, and the "at least 8 hours" LR RAW didn't change, then the only way the new SA can be correct is if it changed the RAW on its own. This appears to be the case, in that it made it so "LR=sleep required," which has effects beyond the interaction of LR and Trance.

What is one of the benefits of eight hours of sleep for a human? it counts as a long rest. You only HAVE to sleep for six hours, the two hours of light activity is entirely optional. There is no disputing the fact that eight hours of sleep counts as a long rest.

What does it say at the end of the Trance entry.
"After Resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."
The only way to gain the same benefit a human does from 8 hours of sleep is if it counts as a long rest. Otherwise you don't gain the same benefits.

The only thing that contradicts that is the OLD sage advice which they've changed their minds on. So ignoring RAW the only way Trance doesn't count as a long rest is if you argue eight hours of sleep doesn't count as a long rest.

[Tanarii]

What is one of the benefits of eight hours of sleep for a human? it counts as a long rest.
Close. It counts as a long rest the first time you do it in 24 hours, is more precise.

But otherwise your post is right. The only way for Trance to not shorten a Long Rest to 4 hours, the first time you use it in 24 hours, is if 8 hours of sleep is not a long rest for a human. Since it does, it must shorten the Long Rest.

Trance is a specific rule, thats langauage must override the "at least 8 hours" statement in Long Rest, because it specifically says it does with the statement that it provides the benefits of 8 hours of sleep. And of course because SA says so.

The reason it didn't override the Long Rest rule before is 8 hours of sleep didn't specifically provide the benefit of a Long Rest. And of course because SA said so.

----------------

Edit: I do, however, feel the old SA answer was kinda suspect logic now. 'Design intent' changing makes me roll my eyes. It's clearly a case of them figuring it doesn't really hurt anything any more, whereas before they were being cautious. I'm parsing words to defend it, and it's possible the old or new one was partially arrived at due to parsing words, but reading between the lines, and I don't think that's ultimately why they changed it.

Basically, I'm just arguing about it because that's what I do. But ultimately, my opinion/position is much simpler: the new SA answer is the better way to do handle Trance, and the errata to change Long Rest to require sleeping is the better as well.

[RSP]

What is one of the benefits of eight hours of sleep for a human? it counts as a long rest. You only HAVE to sleep for six hours, the two hours of light activity is entirely optional. There is no disputing the fact that eight hours of sleep counts as a long rest.

What does it say at the end of the Trance entry.
"After Resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."
The only way to gain the same benefit a human does from 8 hours of sleep is if it counts as a long rest. Otherwise you don't gain the same benefits.

The only thing that contradicts that is the OLD sage advice which they've changed their minds on. So ignoring RAW the only way Trance doesn't count as a long rest is if you argue eight hours of sleep doesn't count as a long rest.

That same logic applies to the old rules for LR though: sleeping for 8 hours would have equally applied to a long rest before the errata, yet we know that didn't equal a long rest (because they flat out told us).

Changing a long rest to requiring sleep, as opposed to requiring either sleep or light activity, doesn't change that 8 hours of sleep would have equally qualified for a LR pre-errata.

[RSP]

Edit: I do, however, feel the old SA answer was kinda suspect logic now. 'Design intent' changing makes me roll my eyes. It's clearly a case of them figuring it doesn't really hurt anything any more, whereas before they were being cautious. I'm parsing words to defend it, and it's possible the old or new one was partially arrived at due to parsing words, but reading between the lines, and I don't think that's ultimately why they changed it.

See I think it's a horrible rule that opens the door to "I get 4 hours of solo time because my Elf Trances," in addition to the logic not actually working (which is a particular pet peeve of mine).

I also dislike trying to squeeze in RAW errata in a SA post as SA is not RAW.

[MeeposFire]

Take note that one of the things in the new book is talking about the effects of sleeping so I would not be surprised if there could be in store. Not sure if this will be directly mentioned but it could be.