Help! Serpent Folk and Dominate Person.

[BoredAsUsual]

Alright. My DM is having a grand old time with his newest campaign and it is a real nest of vipers. My poor rogue cannot go a single dungeon without being placed under dominate person and almost killing the entire party. I will admit that I had fun with it the first few times, but now I am getting to the level where if I stab someone they might seriously hate me.

So I am really curious if anyone has an effective way of dealing with these pesky Serpent Folk or just mind control in general. I am more interested in items, than in feats. I realize that Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are probably really great to invest in with my current situation, but I have my eye on some other abilities. I am a stealth focused rogue, bonus is +31 right now and growing, but as soon as they can see me the jig is up.

Items I have researched so far include:
Mind Sentinel Medallion
Ring of Foe Focus
Clear Spindle w/ a Wayfinder
Pentacle Talisman - Thank you, VexingFool
Cap of the Freethinker - Thank you, Alistaroc

Edit: Since shadow dance keeps getting mentioned, I am also open to any multiclassing that would work with a stealth based rogue that might also raise a will save.

[Malimar]

Protection from evil is the standard for this at low levels. Does the party have a cleric/oracle/shaman/sorcerer/wizard/summoner/inquisitor 1 or paladin 4 you can bum a PfE off of?

[Crake]

Get a collar of umbral metamorphosis from tome of magic. It fixes the main problem with your character that you outlined (once they see you, it's over) by giving you hide in plain sight, which allows you to hide again via the dark template. Note that the hide in plain sight outlined in the dark template in tome of magic is actually a bad one, as it requires cover or concealment, however, the template was updated in an official adventure module for forgotten realms "cormyr: tearing of the weave" (page 152 for anyone with the book or official pdf) to specifically not need cover or concealment, but keeping the limitation of natural daylight, the daylight spell, or similar areas of magical light. As it is a later printing, it takes precedence, making the dark template's hide in plain sight not terrible.

Anyway, my point is, with +31 hide (with another +8 hide from the dark template for a total of +39) your minimum roll would be 40, meaning an enemy needs at least +20 spot and a natural 20 to even see you, and if you can't be seen, you can't be dominated, right? Note that you can hide even while attacking, by taking a -20 on your hide check, so even then you can get a minimum hide of 20. Sure, it means anyone has a chance at seeing you while you're attacking, but even if someone spots you, you can just 5ft step away after doing your full attack and hide again, since hiding can be done with any form of movement. Pretty much the only way to deal with a character like that is to ready actions to try and attack them while they're visible for that short instant, if you even manage to spot them.

Keep in mind though, that with this, if you do get dominated, your party is probably completely unless they have a daylight spell ready. Probably a good idea to have someone carry a scroll or the like just to deal with you if things go sour.

[BoredAsUsual]

Protection from evil is the standard for this at low levels. Does the party have a cleric/oracle/shaman/sorcerer/wizard/summoner/inquisitor 1 or paladin 4 you can bum a PfE off of?

We have tried that. Many times. We either forget to factor in the bonus or I roll badly enough for it to not even matter. The higher in level the dungeons get the higher the DC for these dominate person checks. And every serpent folk gets it as a once per day spell like ability, class levels or not. The spell is definitely something I will keep in mind, but I want a permanent fix.


Get a collar of umbral metamorphosis from tome of magic. It fixes the main problem with your character that you outlined (once they see you, it's over) by giving you hide in plain sight, which allows you to hide again via the dark template. Note that the hide in plain sight outlined in the dark template in tome of magic is actually a bad one, as it requires cover or concealment, however, the template was updated in an official adventure module for forgotten realms "cormyr: tearing of the weave" (page 152 for anyone with the book or official pdf) to specifically not need cover or concealment, but keeping the limitation of natural daylight, the daylight spell, or similar areas of magical light. As it is a later printing, it takes precedence, making the dark template's hide in plain sight not terrible.

I've looked it up and this looks like a 3.5 item. I will try and talk my DM into putting something equivalent into the game, but I get the sense that he'll jack up the price and lower the benefits. As for hiding in plain sight, my rogue has hellcat stealth (feat) and fast stealth (talent), so he gets to make stealth checks at a -10 when in plain sight and daylight.


Anyway, my point is, with +31 hide (with another +8 hide from the dark template for a total of +39) your minimum roll would be 40, meaning an enemy needs at least +20 spot and a natural 20 to even see you, and if you can't be seen, you can't be dominated, right? Note that you can hide even while attacking, by taking a -20 on your hide check, so even then you can get a minimum hide of 20. Sure, it means anyone has a chance at seeing you while you're attacking, but even if someone spots you, you can just 5ft step away after doing your full attack and hide again, since hiding can be done with any form of movement. Pretty much the only way to deal with a character like that is to ready actions to try and attack them while they're visible for that short instant, if you even manage to spot them.

Does this work the same in Pathfinder? I assume you're talking 3.5 rules since the item was 3.5. I am not too rule savvy so please don't mind my asking. It seems like whenever I stealth I can only do it once per round.


Keep in mind though, that with this, if you do get dominated, your party is probably completely unless they have a daylight spell ready. Probably a good idea to have someone carry a scroll or the like just to deal with you if things go sour.

Oh boy, that does sound fun. The last time I got dominated was recently, I am a level 9 unchained rogue with specialization in stealth, and I almost killed the entire party. For some reason no one likes focusing in perception, despite the countless number of times I have been dominated. And considering I have hellcat stealth that day light scroll won't do jack.

[Malimar]

We have tried that. Many times. We either forget to factor in the bonus or I roll badly enough for it to not even matter. The higher in level the dungeons get the higher the DC for these dominate person checks. And every serpent folk gets it as a once per day spell like ability, class levels or not. The spell is definitely something I will keep in mind, but I want a permanent fix.
I was about to be like "that's not how the spell works at all", then I checked, and it turns out you're playing it right, Pathfinder just nerfed the heck out of it. My bad, not an effective suggestion after all.

EDIT: No, I was right the first time, "While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target." is still in there. As long as the spell is up, the serpentfolk can't put any new dominates on you. Assuming the serpentfolk are evil, anyway. If not, you might need one of the other protections from, unless they're true neutral, in case none of them will work.

[Fizban]

Indeed, I too was going to ask why your Cleric isn't casting Magic Circle on you every time you leave the house, but apparently Pathfinder nerfed one of the standard immunity spells. That was dumb of them. My advice would be to get your DM to revert to the 3.5 version, as 3rd level mass immunity to domination is the reason why monsters were allowed to have so much mind control in the first place.

-Also edit: nevermind, Malimar caught that it's still in there.

[Crake]

I've looked it up and this looks like a 3.5 item. I will try and talk my DM into putting something equivalent into the game, but I get the sense that he'll jack up the price and lower the benefits. As for hiding in plain sight, my rogue has hellcat stealth (feat) and fast stealth (talent), so he gets to make stealth checks at a -10 when in plain sight and daylight.

Ah, I didn't notice the pathfinder tag earlier. I'm personally not a fan of hellcat stealth, simply because it doesn't cover the whole range of possibilities, such as hiding in dim light or even total darkness vs enemies with darkvision who will be able to see you plain as day, but if it's been working for you, then power to you. Generally on my pathfinder rogues I take a dip into shadowdancer for their hide in plain sight. There's a pathfinder dev post out there somewhere which says that the shadowdancer's hide in plain sight is intended to work the same as the assassin one, meaning "an area of dim light" includes a person's shadow, not necessarily an area of 20% concealment shadowy illumination. It is a fairly feat intense dip though, requiring combat reflexes (a decent pick on it's own) and dodge/mobility (not so great), but it's worth it imo.


Does this work the same in Pathfinder? I assume you're talking 3.5 rules since the item was 3.5. I am not too rule savvy so please don't mind my asking. It seems like whenever I stealth I can only do it once per round.

Almost. Pathfinder removed the option to attack and remain hidden, except when sniping, so you'll always come out of stealth when you stab someone, but you can then move and stealth again. The action to hide though is still listed as "part of movement". Note it's not "part of a move action" but rather "movement", 5ft steps included. Not being able to remain hidden while attacking does mean full attacks aren't as great anymore, because only the first attack will be against flat footed AC, so something like spring attack (which pairs really well with shadowdancer, since it's two prerequisite feats are also prerequisites for shadowdancer) lets you dash in, stab someone, then dash out and stealth once more, effectively giving you one guaranteed sneak attack each round, assuming your opponents have less than +20 perception.

Again, keep in mind, since you can't remain stealthed while attacking, they can ready actions to attack you for that short moment after you hit and before you move again to stealth while you're visible.

[BoredAsUsual]

I was about to be like "that's not how the spell works at all", then I checked, and it turns out you're playing it right, Pathfinder just nerfed the heck out of it. My bad, not an effective suggestion after all.

EDIT: No, I was right the first time, "While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target." is still in there. As long as the spell is up, the serpentfolk can't put any new dominates on you. Assuming the serpentfolk are evil, anyway. If not, you might need one of the other protections from, unless they're true neutral, in case none of them will work.

Then I am going to assume that we are reading that spell wrong, or just not utilizing it. The DM is vindictive enough that he won't point out obvious ways of dealing with in game issues. Keeps us paying attention and is honestly why I am on here asking around. I will definitely start looking into that spell more often.


Ah, I didn't notice the pathfinder tag earlier. I'm personally not a fan of hellcat stealth, simply because it doesn't cover the whole range of possibilities, such as hiding in dim light or even total darkness vs enemies with darkvision who will be able to see you plain as day, but if it's been working for you, then power to you. Generally on my pathfinder rogues I take a dip into shadowdancer for their hide in plain sight. There's a pathfinder dev post out there somewhere which says that the shadowdancer's hide in plain sight is intended to work the same as the assassin one, meaning "an area of dim light" includes a person's shadow, not necessarily an area of 20% concealment shadowy illumination. It is a fairly feat intense dip though, requiring combat reflexes (a decent pick on it's own) and dodge/mobility (not so great), but it's worth it imo.

I would if I could. This campaign has been going since June and knowing how cool shadowdancer is won't help me now. I could retrain a level or two, and am definitely going to start looking into that now.

And I like hellcat stealth mostly since I can be standing in front of a person having a conversation and still make a stealth check. I feel that it would still work against dark vision since it does say "when being observed", but that is something I will check with my DM.


Almost. Pathfinder removed the option to attack and remain hidden, except when sniping, so you'll always come out of stealth when you stab someone, but you can then move and stealth again. The action to hide though is still listed as "part of movement". Note it's not "part of a move action" but rather "movement", 5ft steps included. Not being able to remain hidden while attacking does mean full attacks aren't as great anymore, because only the first attack will be against flat footed AC, so something like spring attack (which pairs really well with shadowdancer, since it's two prerequisite feats are also prerequisites for shadowdancer) lets you dash in, stab someone, then dash out and stealth once more, effectively giving you one guaranteed sneak attack each round, assuming your opponents have less than +20 perception.

Again, keep in mind, since you can't remain stealthed while attacking, they can ready actions to attack you for that short moment after you hit and before you move again to stealth while you're visible.

The more you talk about this shadowdancer the class, the stronger the urge to multiclass becomes.

[VexingFool]

Pentacle Talisman from Occult Adventures gives a second save and a 5 round protection from evil if you make the 2nd save. The lesser talisman's aren't too expensive at 600gp. You can also wear 2 other talismans on the same necklace. I like Ankh, Freedom and Life's Breath talismans.

[Crake]

And I like hellcat stealth mostly since I can be standing in front of a person having a conversation and still make a stealth check. I feel that it would still work against dark vision since it does say "when being observed", but that is something I will check with my DM.

I meant while in shadowy or total darkness against a person with darkvision, because hellcat stealth only functions in normal or bright light. Admittedly, you could always pull some silliness off by carrying around a torch and being able to hide despite being the source of the illumination, but that also gives away your presence.

I'm more talking about if you're skulking about in a dark cave with darkvision of your own (something shadowdancer also provides :smalltongue:) and some goblins with darkvision spot you, you can't hide in the darkness because they have darkvision, and you can't use hellcat stealth, because it's not bright enough.

Shadowdancer on the other hand, is almost always usable, since there's almost always some kind of shadow around within 10 feet, plus you don't get the -10 penalty.

[Psyren]

There seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread on how Protection From Evil actually works in PF. To summarize:

1) If you have it up ahead of time, it does give flat immunity to "ongoing control" effects, just like 3.5. This includes any spell where the caster can give directions to the subject (like Charm Person, Suggestion, Dominate, or Command) but not spells where the spell itself is compelling specific behavior outside of the caster's control (like Hold Person, Confusion, and Hideous Laughter.)

2) If you cast it reactively, it will not automatically suppress anything that was already active. Instead, you get an additional saving throw with a small bonus for each such effect. Any you succeed on get suppressed, while any you fail at remain active. Note that the spell is giving you two bonuses to this save - the +2 resistance bonus vs. all evil effects, and the +2 morale bonus for this specific reroll. As these are different types, they stack, so your reroll is made at a respectable +4 barring items.

3) Unlike in 3.5, both of the above effects are alignment-bound - i.e. the source of your control effect must be evil for either of these to work. So Protection from Evil will not stop you from being charmed by, say, a Dryad, whether you have it up ahead of time or cast it after she charms you.

So for the OP's specific problem - PfE will work, but you need to cast ahead of time if your rolls are truly unlucky.


Indeed, I too was going to ask why your Cleric isn't casting Magic Circle on you every time you leave the house, but apparently Pathfinder nerfed one of the standard immunity spells. That was dumb of them.

I'll never understand this board. We complain incessantly about casters being unstoppable win buttons and about the entire Enchantment school being completely useless. When the designers finally do something about both, we complain about that too. There's no win in sight.

[Alistaroc]

Items I have researched so far include:
Mind Sentinel Medallion
Ring of Foe Focus
Clear Spindle w/ a Wayfinder
Cap of the Free Thinker should help you.
A friend with a Rose Knight's Blade could also cleanse the dominate person.


I'll never understand this board. We complain incessantly about casters being unstoppable win buttons and about the entire Enchantment school being completely useless. When the designers finally do something about both, we complain about that too. There's no win in sight.
This should be a banner along the top of the page.

[BoredAsUsual]

Pentacle Talisman from Occult Adventures gives a second save and a 5 round protection from evil if you make the 2nd save. The lesser talisman's aren't too expensive at 600gp. You can also wear 2 other talismans on the same necklace. I like Ankh, Freedom and Life's Breath talismans.
Thank you! It’s going on the list. My will save is horrible, but any chance to reroll is welcomed.

I meant while in shadowy or total darkness against a person with darkvision, because hellcat stealth only functions in normal or bright light. Admittedly, you could always pull some silliness off by carrying around a torch and being able to hide despite being the source of the illumination, but that also gives away your presence.

I'm more talking about if you're skulking about in a dark cave with darkvision of your own (something shadowdancer also provides :smalltongue:) and some goblins with darkvision spot you, you can't hide in the darkness because they have darkvision, and you can't use hellcat stealth, because it's not bright enough.

Shadowdancer on the other hand, is almost always usable, since there's almost always some kind of shadow around within 10 feet, plus you don't get the -10 penalty.

I’ve talked to my DM about this and he said that it would be stupid if he didn’t allow me to use Hellcat Stealth even against darkvision. So I am going to take that houseruling on this one.


There seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread on how Protection From Evil actually works in PF. To summarize:

1) If you have it up ahead of time, it does give flat immunity to "ongoing control" effects, just like 3.5. This includes any spell where the caster can give directions to the subject (like Charm Person, Suggestion, Dominate, or Command) but not spells where the spell itself is compelling specific behavior outside of the caster's control (like Hold Person, Confusion, and Hideous Laughter.)

2) If you cast it reactively, it will not automatically suppress anything that was already active. Instead, you get an additional saving throw with a small bonus for each such effect. Any you succeed on get suppressed, while any you fail at remain active. Note that the spell is giving you two bonuses to this save - the +2 resistance bonus vs. all evil effects, and the +2 morale bonus for this specific reroll. As these are different types, they stack, so your reroll is made at a respectable +4 barring items.

3) Unlike in 3.5, both of the above effects are alignment-bound - i.e. the source of your control effect must be evil for either of these to work. So Protection from Evil will not stop you from being charmed by, say, a Dryad, whether you have it up ahead of time or cast it after she charms you.
So for the OP's specific problem - PfE will work, but you need to cast ahead of time if your rolls are truly unlucky.

Thank you for the clarification. We are high enough level, most of us, to just have someone prepare Magic Circle every time we go into a dungeon. Convincing them to give up a spell slot for the team might be the only problem now. But in the case that I am without someone who can cast these spells I really want items that either boost will saves or help against mind control. As a rogue I go on solo missions a lot of the time.

[Psyren]

Thank you for the clarification. We are high enough level, most of us, to just have someone prepare Magic Circle every time we go into a dungeon. Convincing them to give up a spell slot for the team might be the only problem now. But in the case that I am without someone who can cast these spells I really want items that either boost will saves or help against mind control. As a rogue I go on solo missions a lot of the time.

Potions exist, and each one will cover you for 10 rounds - enough to cover you for a whole combat, though you shouldn't really be fighting things alone.

For save bonuses - a Pale Green Prism ioun stone will give you a +1 competence bonus to all saves, while a flawed one will give you a +1 morale bonus. A luckstone will give you a +1 luck bonus. Then your cloak will give you up to a +5 resistance bonus. Getting a headband of wisdom will give you up to another +3 untyped.

The Rogue's Slippery Mind ability gives you a reroll if you fail your save.

[Fizban]

I'll never understand this board. We complain incessantly about casters being unstoppable win buttons and about the entire Enchantment school being completely useless. When the designers finally do something about both, we complain about that too. There's no win in sight.
Actually I don't- I'm one of those who says mind control is ridiculously OP and people complaining about it not working on everything should be laughed out of the room. But even if you've seen me make a point of it I'd not be surprised if you'd forget what with the generic avatar.

Still, having participated in thread after thread of drawn out arguments, you should know better than to think of "this board" as any sort of united "we."

[Psyren]

My point though is that mind control is not OP at all. Far from it. Even before you get to the silver bullet counters themselves, it's still a weak strategy because of how many monsters are just innately immune to it, the fact that just about all of the spells are subject to SR, some of them bring language differences into play, the fact that many of them allow multiple saves to shake them off, clauses like "unreasonable commands" or "self-destructive orders", and all kinds of other bollocks that limit what you can pull off. Nerfing the spells that were blocking them doesn't do squat about all that other stuff, so I'm all for it. I can actually play an enchanter past like, level 7 now, without immediately resorting to the bog-standard summons, buffs, shapeshifting, and battlefield control mambo that every arcanist and their dog ends up going for. A class like Mesmerist that focuses on it with a reduced spell list would be nigh-unplayable at high levels in 3.5.



Still, having participated in thread after thread of drawn out arguments, you should know better than to think of "this board" as any sort of united "we."

Indeed, debunking that is precisely why I participate in those arguments. To show that some of us do actually understand and support the design decisions/changes made.